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Ermac6
20th September 2001, 03:07
So what is this art tengujutsu all about??? here is the link http://www.shadowslight.com/education/tengujutsu.htm



Brent Leach

Sgathak
20th September 2001, 03:27
Ill wait until there are plenty of posts made before I answer this question explicetly

However you may be more interested in the following link. http://www.shadowslight.com/tengujutsu

Its far more up to date.


J Robbins

Kyukage
20th September 2001, 03:28
um ... wow

That was certainly unique ... or not ... or something.

I'm speachless.

Sgathak
20th September 2001, 03:29
http://pub53.ezboard.com/fshadowslightfrm14


You might also find the following message board of some use.

Feel free to refrence this thread as well

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8159



J Robbins




Edit - Hyperlink added

Sgathak
20th September 2001, 03:40
Whoooohoooo bait for the slaughter!!!!!


Its learning time.... I was hoping this wouldnt end up on the "bad budo" forum.... but its cool.

Im here to learn, ask, and answer questions...


as mills lane says "lets get it on"





J Robbins

Sgathak
20th September 2001, 03:57
Come on.... you guys arnt fun... ive been waiting on 2 diffrent message boards for 5 whole minutes and no one has ripped me apart yet....


Hmmmm.... I think I need to quit saying "tengujutsu is a work in progress with almost no functional development above and beyond whats been written down on paper and some intellectual ponderings" and jump right into being "Dai-Soke".... is that what I need to do to get some real flames??????


do I really need to bust out a bunch of fake lineage???? cant I just be honest and say "right now I have no idea what Im doing but some help would be nice"


geeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzz 5 minutes on Bad Budo and I dont have 3 pages dedicated to me yet.







:p :D :D :D :D :p



J Robbins

Sgathak
20th September 2001, 04:16
Hey Ermac6

Im always interested in how people find my site... was it through my profile or did you bump into it on a search engine? if so which one?




J Robbins

charlesl2
20th September 2001, 04:23
Just keep posting.
Eventually you'll have 3 pages of yourself, and meet you're quota.

Where did you find the pictures? That one with the guy with the long nose, the style looks kinda classic sci-fi or something.

-Charles Lockhart

Sgathak
20th September 2001, 04:33
Yeah... I was excited... I made the "bad budo" list without even trying. No promotion, no Discovery channel special, hell I didnt even mention it here.... I feel as though "ive arrived"
(I was going to just keep editing my original post... but I dont like doing that too much. it makes it look like Im "fixing' things... a new post everytime keeps me from looking like im tryig to cover my own a$$)

As for the art work... the Karasu Drawing (not the netsuke(?)) and the humanoid head can be found in a book on mythological and sci fi creaatures... I have no idea what the book is called though. I found them posted by someone (well... quite a few someones actually) on a few webpages here and there.


J Robbins

charlesl2
20th September 2001, 04:43
Huh, cool. I have a definite fondness for that older sci-fi art stuff.

So, why would you want to be on the bad budo forum anyways?

-Charles Lockhart

Kyukage
20th September 2001, 04:51
Originally posted by charlesl2
So, why would you want to be on the bad budo forum anyways?

Fun, really ... I've been trying for weeks, but apparently I'm still too damned credible. Sgathak ... I'm jealous. I bow to your superior "Bad-Budo-ness" (bastard) :)

Sgathak
20th September 2001, 04:57
I dont WANT to be on the bad budo forum.... but I had a distinct feeling that people would read one page and blow whistles if they ever "got a hold of it".... I wasnt let down. not only was it one page, but it was the FIRST page I ever idled away a 3am insomnia fit on... and a rough draft at that.

Besides, Ive always got a bit of a morbid kick about being the "underdog"... I didnt WANT to be on the Bad Budo forum as I said... but since it got thrown up here with no research from the original poster I figured Id give as much info as I could. Show I was ready and willing to answer questions (unlike a few others I can name) and do my best to enjoy the ride.

If anyone has any questions or comments for me Im more than happy to answer/discuss them. Via this forum, another thread on a more "prestigous" board if someone feels so inclined to post on it, my message board, PM, or Email... Im an open book. All I ask is that people understand that "TenguJutsu" (which is a VERY tentative working name... it doesnt "historically" fit the art) is still very new and in now way mature enough to stand up to the big boys... Its not intended to... Yet



J Robbins


Typo edit... not covering my a$$... i SWEAR... scouts honor

Kyukage
20th September 2001, 05:06
Typo edit... not covering my a$$... i SWEAR... scouts honor

oh, sure ... sure ... I believe you ... yep. Typo ... that's it.

Sgathak
20th September 2001, 07:26
Hey Kyukage

Im still waiting to hear back on that 2x4 for ya... he makes like 8 diff styles and does some custom work too. So getting what you want shouldnt be a problem at all.

Just keeping you updated




J Robbins

Kyukage
20th September 2001, 07:33
Originally posted by Sgathak
Just keeping you updated

TNX

icynorth
20th September 2001, 17:47
Well I am not one to dash anyones style, why lie in judgement. I thought it was a pretty interesting site. Is it not possible to have a system made of other teachings, does that always mean bad budo?

Chi
21st September 2001, 10:01
I don't think anyone has said this art is Bad Budo... Brent was just asking what the art is about (admittedly, he probably picked the wrong forum to do so).

As far as I can see it is up front and honest about its compiled-from-other-arts status, and doesn't claim to have any hokey 2,000 year unbroken lineage history without giving verification, no outlandish instructor bios, no usage of "Master" or "Soke" or "Professor", no pay-lots-of-money for honorary rank scams... in short this is by far the weakest Bad Budo site I have seen (g'bye) :)

J, you should be ashamed of yourself. How could you possibly expect that site to generate 3 pages of comments and criticisms when you don't have the common decency to make wild, unsubstantiated claims. I insist that you post ridculous pictures of people levitating, whilst dressed in gaudy patch-covered gis, wearing rainbow-coloured belts, get a WMAHF membership decreeing you as 10th Dan daiSoke and offer non-Accredited degrees. Plus you are henceforth immediately to claim the Head Master Grand Professor Sei-i-tai-Shogun of this style was taught by a secret Japanese-national SAS agent whilst they were both on a covert mission in the Jungles of 'Nam (and who learnt the art from a Tengu who taught him in his sleep) :D

Now from a more serious point of view, whilst Tengujutsu is a bit of a silly name IMHO (but you have said ts a working title), and although the combination art doesn't look like my personal cup-of-tea (and seems like a very strange combination, but hey if you can pull it off, kudos to ya), you are not making any wild claims. However, from a non-bad budo point of view, I wonder why you are creating a new art when you by your own admission have not mastered the constituant arts yet... since this seems to be for your own development, and since you are not intending to teach for a long time, I wonder why you have already defined a rank structure - is it to give yourself goals to train for? What are you really looking to do with this new art, what are your goals and what is the reason for creating it? I don't want an answer to these, I'm just trying to ensure you have asked yourself those questions...

Another thing... is it _just_ learning the constituent arts, or is it something more... integrating and merging them all (etc.). If its the former then there is no benefit to learning a almalgamated art as opposed to learning the individual elements.

A few final pieces of advice for the future: remain honest to any students you may in the future have (even though it may be tempting to embellish the truth to seem greater from time to time), don't take rank in your own art (you cannot sensibly grade yourself), don't seek sokeship certification, or accredation, and don't claim a hokey title like "Master", "DaiSoke", "Professor" etc. If you believe your art means anything, and will endure the test of time, the sole fact that you were its founder should be enough, no?

Mr Gibb: No, it is perfectly acceptable to have a new art born out of others, but you should question your own motives as to why you are founding an art, and what qualifies you to do so. IMO (though I have no experience in creating my own "style") the formation of a new style would be because you feel you have reached the limits in your current style, nothing else similar to your vision exists, or is inadequate and you want to pass something worthwhile on to your students. If these are the reasons... good. If you are creating a style just to promote your own ego, or to seek some recognition for yourself ("hey look, I'm a black belt") then I would seriously recommend questioning your own motives. NB: This is not directed at anyone, I'm just hypothetically speaking here btw.

Regards,

Chris.

Sgathak
21st September 2001, 10:54
You said you didnt want the questions answered... but I think they were good solid questions which in turn deserve answers.


why you are creating a new art when you by your own admission have not mastered the constituant arts yet

This all started around Christmas time a year or so ago as a "i wonder if?" sort of scenario when I was reading about devine teachings from the Tengu. "what if the Tengu had their own art form which they taught to humans?" "what would it have in it?" "what schools supposedly come from Tengu teachings?" "of those schools what seems consistant between them? anything?" As I began thinking about it it set me off thinking other scenarios and yadda yadda yadda... Eventually "the art of the Tengu" was kind of a Muse. It went from a "what if" to a feeling of "this is what I need to do for myself... a personal jounrey". As to my "mastery" of the various schools... I have some rather extensive training in 2 of the 4 Martial arts schools and a current working knowledge of the other two. I dont plan on even considering myself a "teacher" until I have reached Menkyo Kaiden (or equevalent) in all the arts in question. You might also note that besides the 4 main martial arts involved their are also 2 schools of Yoga (both Im well versed in, hoping to get my teacher cert. in both this winter) as well as a few forms of Chi Kung which I have a working and growing knowledge of.


since this seems to be for your own development, and since you are not intending to teach for a long time, I wonder why you have already defined a rank structure

At the VEEEERRRYYYYY bottom of the page there is a disclaimer saying basically "I ripped off a bunch of this from Hoshinjutsu" which I did... and have been modifiying as things have been developing. when something needs changing or updating as I go along, I change it. I havent seen any need to alter the rank structure as it is, as you said, it is also a guide for me to guage my own development.


What are you really looking to do with this new art, what are your goals and what is the reason for creating it?

As I said, at first it was just a "what if?" but now that Ive got a bit of time under my belt on this project Id like to see where it plays out to. The art isnt just Martial in scope. It is distinctly "internal".. maybe even kind of "religious" though thats not its intention. In the end I think it will mostly be a tool for personal development and if I find a student(s) which I feel comfortable sharing my "quest" with, then I will pass it on.


is it _just_ learning the constituent arts, or is it something more... integrating and merging them all (etc.).

the end goal is a wholly new art that doesnt resemble any of the "parents". The martial aspects will be heavily based on Taijutsu (from the Bujinkan school and the Hoshin School) but will also integrate the aspects found in SCARS (the Autokenematics and Strike points, Less "how to hit" more "where to hit") and the teachings from ROSS which are more principals of "physical Culture" over a fighting system... make no mistake there is some ass whoopin involved in ROSS but its philosophy is distinctly diffrent from other arts. Plus I aim to integrate the Chi Kung breathing to all aspects as well as Yoga and Zdorovye (russian natural health) to the whole mix. Plus extensive "spiritual refinement"... I also want to develope some independant forms integrating the physical nature of ALL of it as well as the mental/spiritual/philosophical aspects... Not just how to do the form, and whats effective in it, but breathing skills, moving meditations, etc. The more I look into the deeper workings of all the arts the more Im convinced that all of the them are not only compatable, but also complementary.

Thank you very very very much for your honest apprasal and questioning. They were very insightful for me to think over and I hope for others when (if) they see this.



J Robbins

Self appointed Head Master Grand Professor Sei-i-tai-Shogun of Tengujutsu as was taught by a secret Japanese-national SAS agent whilst on a covert mission in the Jungles of 'Nam (and who learnt the art from a Tengu who taught him in his sleep)

icynorth
21st September 2001, 13:21
Good Point Chi

Sgathak
22nd September 2001, 06:02
I wanted to thank you Chi for your questions and offering the time you did to give me such a fantastic "review" of the site and so on. Due to your questioning I have updated the website to more accuratly reflect my current interpretiation of "TenguJutsu"

Your post was just the sort of thing I have been looking for in the way of honest contructive critisicism and it has helped to further focus many of my questions/problems Ive had thus far.

Thank you again




J Robbins

Ermac6
23rd September 2001, 05:22
Sorry about putting it in here, I thought that the NHB&G was down (didnt want it in the members area part because of some contraversy(sp)). I just wanted to know about it, I was looking up the term "tengu" on a search engine that night and found it. Just wanted feed back.

Sorry it took so long to post, but I have been sick and have been busy with karate and stuff.

Brent Leach

PS I didnt really understand the page, that is why I posted asking what it was about really.

Don Cunningham
23rd September 2001, 06:58
I don't understand why this was started in the Bad Budo forum. I looked at the pages, and I thought whoever is behind this Tengujutsu should be commended for their honesty.

As mentioned on the site, the legend is that Yoshitsune did train under a tengu. After killing Yoshitsune's father, Taira Kiyomori placed the infant in the care of Buddhist priests in a monastery near Kyoto. As a teenager, though, Yoshitsune ran away from the monastery to join his older brother, Yoritomo, in the Honshu region of northern Japan. It was supposedly during his travels in the mountain country that Yoshitsune was allegedly befriended by a tengu who taught him the martial arts, including sword fighting and tessen jutsu, as well as military tactics.

He used his tessen-jutsu skills to beat Benkei on the Gojo Bridge in Kyoto. He used the military tactics to avenge his father's killers and defeat Minamoto Yoshinaka and later the remaining Taira forces along the Inland Sea, annihilating them in the famous naval battle of Dannoura during the spring of 1184.

Obviously, his tengu instructor knew his martial arts. I would like to see more about the syllabus of this newly created style to better understand the relationship, though. It seems that much of the curriculm is based on more modern styles than traditional martial arts. It would be nice to learn how the modern styles have influenced the overall content.

Sgathak
23rd September 2001, 17:55
I would like to see more about the syllabus of this newly created style to better understand the relationship, though. It seems that much of the curriculm is based on more modern styles than traditional martial arts. It would be nice to learn how the modern styles have influenced the overall content.


I wrote a (current) Full Syllabis on the art which can now be found at http://www.shadowslight.com/tengujutsu/rank.html It has the basic training levels listed for each belt level as its ordered now.

As for the various influences... It comes from Budo Taijutsu and Hoshinjutsu (which itself was developed from Budo Taijutsu skills, along with some Kung Fu and Savate thrown into the mix). These two schools provide the basis of the physical techniques. Because Hoshinjutsu's full name is "hoshinroshi ryu jutaijutsu" you can see that it has a stronger overall focus on grappling arts over striking and "TenguJutsu" continues that... From the ROSS school (which is also mainly a grappling art) a significant amount of the combat philosophy is derived, things like Planeing and Triangulation. And from SCARS I took the Biomechanical Reactions which are applied in "shocking"

(for info on shocking, planeing, and triangulation please refrence the following page http://www.shadowslight.com/tengujutsu/principals.html)

It also has quite a bit of Yoga and Qigung which helps with stretching, muscular development and control, as well as breath control

If you would like more info Don, I certainly welcome it. LOL if I can pass the Gauntlet of the Crusader Rabbit Ryu then im well ahead of where I thought I was LOL

As it sits now it is still VERY immature in its development, it needs ALOT of work but I think it has a good solid base which, with a bit of shaping and careful trimming might just turn out ok

J Robbins

AmerROSS
1st October 2001, 01:29
It is important for us to officially reinforce this individual's following comment from his website,

"Most of the arts I have studied do not have a "belt" system and I therefore have no belt to display, a few were taught to me in a school which had chosen not to use a ranking system. Some, I am NOT ashamed to admit, I taught myself via VHS video tape. "

Firstly, because the ROSS/Zdorovye Systems do not have "belt rankings" does not mean that these systems do not have STRICT educational development programs. They do. These programs are subject to corporate licensing agreements to ensure the quality of our trainers, and the integrity of our systems.

Secondly, many references are made to Scott Sonnon's materials on ROSS Training System, Zdorovye Health System (depicted at http://www.amerross.com/products.html). These training materials are resource COMPANIONS to actual training and DO NOT ATTEMPT and OPENLY STATE that these are not instructional materials, but ONLY home-study resources designed to accompany training with a qualified, licensed instructor in ROSS and Zdorovye.

Instructorship in ROSS and Zdorovye is a VERY exhaustive and intensive program. For more information, please visit http://www.amerross.com/teach.html. In the six years that ROSS/Zdorovye have been to North America, there have been only 5 licensed instructors in the whole continent.

People viewing ROSS/Zdorovye materials are not competent to represent ROSS/Zdorovye and the materials presented therein. All materials are copyright & trademark protected, and violators will be pursued and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

The individual above misrepresenting ROSS/Zdorovye has never had one day of training in ROSS/Zdorovye, and his illegal usage (misusage) of ROSS/Zdorovye materials is now officially under criminal investigation by our attorneys.

We officially protest his misuse of our materials and misrepresentation of our copyrights, trademarks and patents.

Our corporate office as of Monday, October 1st shall be drafting an official cease and desist from our attorney.

Thank you for your vigilance in "Bad Budo."

Sincerely,
Vladimir Belo, webmaster
www.amerross.com
AARMACS, Incorporated
Atlanta, Georgia USA:smash:

John Lindsey
1st October 2001, 03:10
Not sure why this thread was in BB, but I moved it here for now.

While I could not find anything "BAD" per se, I do have a personal problem with Glenn Morris and some of his comments he made in his books about my teacher. But, even that is not enough to leave this in the the Bad Budo forum.

Sgathak
1st October 2001, 05:32
In response to the post made by AmerROSS Im OFFICALLY stating that under no circumstances nor at any time have i EVER stated that I teach ROSS nor have I stated that I am an offical member of AARMACS or its subsidaries. NEVER ONCE.

In fact I would like to OFFICALLY state that any refrence to ROSS/RMA was in fact a statment of admiration for the art and its abilities and I at no time claimed any form of official instruction AT THIS TIME. I still do not claim any instruction in this art. Just that its principals are solid and that I feel they are invaluable to a combat art.

Further, never once did I state that the ranking system or the instructor qualifications were in any way inadequate. never once.

ANY mention of ROSS was made in a purely academic sense. NEVER ONCE was ANY information on ROSS taken from the AMERROSS website or ANY authroized AMERROSS text. The page titled "principals" WAS an ADAPTATION of a ROSS text but shares NO copyrighten materials. In fact, some principals as listed were dropped from the page and others added.

Several times I explictely stated that I currently have NO OFFICAL RANKING in ANY ART. I also NEVER claimed to be teaching ANY OF THE LISTED ARTS. Just that I found them to have invaluable teachings which I would incorporate into an art. An art which at this time DOES NOT EXIST beyond the CONCEPTION of myself and what WAS a non public website until it was brought up here on E-Budo, at which time it was further adapted to STOP any possible misconceptions from people. This effort has obviously failed miserably.

On Monday morning I will be contacting AARMACS directly to sort out this situation directly. Until I update this situation further, please rest assured that at no time was there any intention fo causeing any issue with AARMACS, Scott Sonnen, or any other group associated on my part. In fact I honestly feel that this is simply a misunderstanding which I hope to clear up shortly and I hold NO grudge with AARMACS, Mr Sonnen, or subsidaries there of.

Further, If anyone has ANY questions on this matter I invite them to contact me directly for more information. This includes amerROSS.




J Robbins

AmerROSS
1st October 2001, 07:13
Dear Mr. Robbins,
If you do not wish immediate legal response from our company later this business day, remove your website usage of ROSS Principles, Zdorovye Principles and ROSS/Zdorovye references.
Regardless of whether you overtly state you are not licensed, you state that your "art" was developed from ROSS/Zdorovye, numerous times.

To expand, the following is considered by law theft of intellectual property:

On http://www.shadowslight.com/tengujutsu/rank.html, the following can be read:

"Tengujutsu is a new art composed of several new and traditional arts. Those arts being Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu (With an over 800 year old unbroken lineage), Hoshinjutsu (developed in MI and TX by Dr Glenn Morris PhD), SCARS (Special Combat Aggressive Reactionary Systems developed by Jerry Peterson as the official hand to hand combat system used by the US Navy SEALs), ROSS (A martial art from the Russian steppes and preserved by the Spetnaz and KGB after the rise of communism in the USSR). "

How can "Tengujutsu" be composed of ROSS when you have never had one day of training as a ROSS instructor, much less be licensed?

On http://www.shadowslight.com/tengujutsu/principals.html, the following is written: "TenguJutsu Principals Some of the more interesting principals to be found in TenguJutsu are hardly if ever found in other arts, and especially not in the combinations which have been brought together here. There are 6 major principals to be found in TenguJutsu. These principals are Planeing, Flowing, Continuous movement, Triangulation, Shocking, and Hyper Action."

Hardly if ever? What you mean is that these ROSS Principles were taken directly from the copywrite protected materials you purchased from AARMACS, Inc.

"Creating a Plane" from Shock Inoculation (http://www.amerross.com/shock.html)
Triangulation from IOUF Biomechanical Throwing (http://www.amerross.com/iouf.html)
Shocking from SHOCK-Ability Biomechanical Impact Training (http://www.amerross.com/shock.html)
HyperAction (as you call it) from Hyperfunction from the IOUF Biomechanical Throwing (http://www.amerross.com/iouf.html)

What you are doing is more than illegal, it's offensive and unethical. Scott Sonnon in particular spent TEN YEARS of his life totally invested in gaining access to the now former Soviet Union, as the USA National Sambo Team Coach and international champion. Those accomplishments are nothing compared to the fact that these he achieved these things ONLY TO GAIN ACCESS to become the FIRST non-Russian to be accepted as a student IN RUSSIA to be trained in Russia and to be the first foreigner licensed as an instructor of ROSS Training System. Furthermore he was given the privilege to be the Head Trainer for North America. Stealing his materials is a direct affront to him, to his hard work, sacrifices, and determination to make LEGITIMATE STUDY available to American citizens.

The Vision Statement of the American Annex to the International Federation of Russian Martial Art (http://www.amerross.com/aarfrma - the North American Governing Body for ROSS) is "The Purpose of ROSS is to share ROSS", and the Vision Statement of the American Academy for Russian Martial Art and Combat Skill, Inc. (http://www.amerross.com/aarmacs - the North American instructor training headquarters for the American Annex) is "to ensure the quality of the educational process and the integrity of the training environment of the ROSS Training System." This means sharing ROSS through a specific educational process by qualified/licensed instructors. Calling something your own that you have taken from others is a direct danger to the integrity of the ROSS and Zdorovye Systems, and compromises the quality of the systems.

We appreciate all people who are enthusiastic about ROSS, and the letter you have sent us in private states that was your innocent intention. Regardless of your belief that your actions are innocent, they are criminal.

If we do not see immediate response from you regarding these issues, you shall receive the first level of legal action on our part, today, Monday October 1st, 2001.

We are not alerted to your behavior. And should we find that in the future, you ever attempt to steal AARMACS, Inc. Intellectual Property, our response will be legal swift and total.

Any further contact may be done through our legal counsel.

Regards,
Vladimir Belo, webmaster
www.amerross.com
AARMACS, Incorporated
Atlanta, Georgia USA

Sgathak
1st October 2001, 09:18
Okie Doke, Ill remove the stuff about ROSS... NOT because anything illegal has transpired but because of the behavior displayed here by you has given me a VERY vivid idea of the behavior of the "face" of ROSS... though Im sure many of its practitoners are wonderful people, such behavior on a message board is simply uncalled for and I no longer wish to be associated with ROSS anymore anyway. I have asked on this board openly that further correspondence with this matter be done in private and you flaggerantly have refused to do so. I dont know about you but to most, that is in very poor taste (you can go on and on about your feelings about MY "offensive and unethical" behavior... what you have done here goes above and beyond that, it is out and out childish and callow... congrats)

I have from the word "go" tried only to promote ROSS and openly stated that it is one of the best SYSTEMS I have ever encountered. and because of its quality I wished to learn more and integrate its principals to an art which at this time is simply a concept.

I attempted to send you an email that very politly tried to explain the situation (which you acknowledged in your post and KNOW that I have made an attempt to contact you privately) and asked you to allow me to contact you via telephone and you have chosen to not only ignore said email and my request that this conversation not be carried out in the open, but you have since tried to make me look bad and state that I have "stolen" your information... i.e, "Planeing" (where and how you manged to copyright and/or patent body movement I have no idea) and your statements saying that I have stolen information made available on "your" training materials is utterly false. Much of the principals page was an adaptation of an artical found in Black Belt Magazine... If you dont want people finding useful information from your system why provide it for open public consuption? It was also adapted from the works of Vladimer Vasiliev (whos videos often cover blow absorption and the creation of planes, as well the question mark principal which I have chosen to NOT include on the principals page), Jerry Peterson and his SCARS system from which the direct principals of Aukokenimatics utilized by his system were the ACTUAL inspiration for "shocking" (NOT as you wish to imply was taken from the "shock eng." as used in ROSS, i merely found the term and its description to be very "correct" in how I personally veiwed its application, not as Jerry Peterson advocates), "Flowing" is MY term for what I saw not only in ROSS but also Tai Chi and Aikido, as well as Hapkido, Aikijujutsu, etc... sorry but you dont own the monopoly on the concept of linking together movements (as seen in both flowing and "continuous movement" [which you dont have any rights to anyway.. the concept has existed for hundreds of years] and the visual image of flowing water... Lao Tzu used that about 3000 yeas ago), As for the principal of hyperfunction, it is well known in many forms of Silat and Kung Fu and is not limited to ROSS by any means. (In fact Vladomer Vasiliev also covers the use of hyperfunction in his training, he just doesnt name it as such)... you therefore have no right to that term (unless your now copyrighting the english language) seeing as how hyperfunction is a well known MEDICAL term not limited to martial arts and certainly not ROSS. The ONLY principal to which ROSS may have any serious legal claim to is triangualation. Though almost all grappling arts utilize a reseating of balance points as seen in triangualtion, the term is Yours. No question. I actually got quite a bit of use out of that principal and found it to be both effective and powerful, which is why I included it... I found it to be EFFECTIVE in my training... (i guess ill stick to endorsing only non effective techniques from now on)

I said that "tengujutsu" was bringing together principals hardly if ever used together and ment it, the principals used in TenguJutsu are NOT strictly ROSS as explained above. They are brought together from 4 diffrent arts. The principals that are most easily "digested" by people are the basics... those are the ones listed... Which were derived from not only ROSS but SCARS, Hoshin, and Budo Taijutsu. as well as several other arts which I have studied over time... Includeing Muay Thai, JKD, Silat, and Kung Fu San Soo (the arts I was taught at the school which had chosen to not grade students)

You asked how can "tengujutsu" be composed of ROSS? Well, firstly Ill attempt to explain it to you again... "TenguJutsu" DOES NOT EXIST... it is as of right now nothing more than a website and a theory... Thats it! If you read further into the website it states QUITE plainly that the development of TenguJutsu has not at this time STARTED let alone the training involved. ONLY the PRINCIPALS have been included in the VERY preliminary theory of how this system would be put together... in that sense it IS composed of ROSS principals. NO PHYSICAL ACTION has been integrated (nor will it EVER be now...) just the CONCEPTS and PRINCIPALS. Which as stated already, if you didnt want people to use, shouldnt have been in Black Belt Magazine in the first place.

Several times it is stated on the ROSS website that there are no techniques in ROSS, just principals... how on earth you can claim to have "patented" the principals of movement, let alone claim to have some sort of monopoly on the movements of the human body I have absolutely no idea.

I would also like to comment on the copyright disclaimer on the amerross website. it states the following: "All Images and Text are exclusive property of AMERROSS.com, and unless otherwise noted may not be used for commercial purposes (emphasis mine) without permission. Thank You..."
I state on my site, the email i sent you, and have said on this forum that I do not plan to have students. The site in question has also been stated numerous times as being UNINTENDED FOR GENERAL PUBLIC VEIWING until it was talked about here. I also make NO effert to make its information available at a cost. Its not printed in a book, its not in a "pay site", its not even in a members area of a website... therefore absolutly NO commercial use.

As stated I WILL gladly remove ANY refrence to ROSS... Not because I do not find the system effective or because it is as you stated "unlawful" (seeing as how I have shown that you have little if any claim to the listed principals... only a vauge legal hold on the wording and dynamics of the page, that being because it was a direct adaptation and summarization of an openly available artical as provided for public consuption in Black Belt Magazine.) but because of the pitiful behavior of the representatives of the art.

Consider it a win my man! Hope it made ya proud!




J Robbins

Chi
1st October 2001, 10:37
...but now I think this thread should be moved to the "Bad Commercial Practices" forum.

AmerROSS - for pete's sake take your stupid (and, in my opinion utterly untenable) threats of legal action to EMAIL!

Why has it come to such a situation today where people are all too ready to fire off subpoena rather than being a mature adult and first attempting to rectify the matter through non-litigious methods?

Disgusted,

Chris.

Kyukage
1st October 2001, 12:24
Originally posted by Chi
Why has it come to such a situation today where people are all too ready to fire off subpoena rather than being a mature adult and first attempting to rectify the matter through non-litigious methods?

Cuz suing people makes money, but hey ...

"When you sue someone, that makes me a SAAAAD panda.".
- Pete, the "Don't Sue People" Panda

Sgathak
1st October 2001, 12:49
Scott Sonnon, the person who brought ROSS to the United States has personally emailed me explining the over exuberance of the reaction from "amerROSS"

While I think "amerROSS" is a prick (sorry for the language, it is the only thing which comes to mind to adequatly describe my feelings for this person) I have absolutly NO ill will with AARMACS or Mr Sonnon in anyway. I still think ROSS is a phenominal system. I want to make this clear.

Mr Sonnon has made it clear that HE holds no ill will with me and has even invited me to join him on his msg forum and to attend his camps and seminars. I will even take this time to assume that Mr Sonnon has no intention of pressing any charges.

I will follow up on this with Mr Sonnon after I catch a few ZZZZzzzzz's and depending on how things go will reconsider my stance on some issues pertaining to this thread.

I wish to thank Mr Sonnon for his email and Now... Its bed time...



J Robbins

dakotajudo
1st October 2001, 14:31
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Not sure why this thread was in BB, but I moved it here for now.

While I could not find anything "BAD" per se, I do have a personal problem with Glenn Morris and some of his comments he made in his books about my teacher. But, even that is not enough to leave this in the the Bad Budo forum.

FWIW, I thought the original topic (prior to the legal action) did belong in Bad Budo.

We've had several debates on what is or isn't bad budo. This thread sets an example of what may appear to be bad budo on the surface but is not, by the consensus of the group, bad budo.

Leaving the thread in Bad may help newcomers determine what is or is not an appropriate topic for this forum.

MarkF
2nd October 2001, 08:16
Gendai Budo

General discussion area for the modern martial art traditions of Japan



The web site is well written with good content, and is my own personal description of a web site I would return to, or book mark. So many have inapropriate music, 26 year old supreme grand masters, etc., that this site is refreshing with the upfront admission that it isn't a working MA as of yet, not by itself, anyway.

But, according to the definition of Gendai Budo, this thread also does not belong here. I don't know whether bad budo is the place for it or not (I don't think it is (bad budo) simply because of the honesty of the person who wrote the web site/owns it, and the fact it is almost certainly not Japanese, nor traditional.

I don't have a beef or a "steak" in it, I'm simply weighing in on where the thread belongs.
*****

But since most agree it isn't bad budo, and that there is disagreement over where it belongs, I would say it would most certainly be of interest to all members, thus the Member's Lounge is the better alternative, especially with the threats of legal action over intellecual property. It even may help those who have or will have websites with a new martial art, do so in a constructive environment.

The other way to go would possibly a sub-forum for web sites as such, with no particular place as of yet, a kind of "Post-modern Martial art forum," particularly those which are not of Japanese origin, in keeping with the E-budo.com-imposed limits of discussion.

There is nothing wrong with a new art based in, say, jujutsu, but new just the same, but just as there is a Neo-Ninja forum for modern forms of ninjutsu, I see a growing need for such. The term gendai has come to mean MA influenced or begun around the 1870s, with a good number of traditional martial arts begun not too long after with all begun in Japan.

Anyway, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.;)

Mark

PS: Actually, I don't have a problem at all with it here, I just was making a point due to the description of "Gendai Budo."

Sgathak
2nd October 2001, 17:31
I dont care if the thread get removed, put in bad budo, left where it is, or otherwise....

Ive decided to take a hyatus from it all for a while, while I work on getting set up for college (Ive been out of school long enough... time to act like an adult), work on getting my P.O.S.T. cert., up my PT time, and spend more time at a new MA school I found.

The website was never supposed to be public, it was just a diversion for on *my* free time... A training aid for when *Im* working out. Thats all...

Now there are FAR too many people taking things FAR to serious... I dont mind being serious, but it has its place and time. Just like being laid back and relaxed has its place and time.

This website and the crap it has generated has run its course (wether that means it has stopped I dont know, it means I no longer care though), and now Im off to more exciting things for a while.



J Robbins