KarateForum Etiquette

[Sochin]

Greetings:

After some discussion and even a little debate, I have decided to encourage the use of English in all posts.

The study of karate encompasses Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese ideas, skills and words...and seldom is there just no way at all to translate a concept into English.

IF or purpose is communication, then it behooves us to actually communicate in a language each understands.

Therefore, all participants are asked to write in English with the foreign term for the art in parenthesis, if desired. Less acceptable will be the use of foreign language terms with the English in parenthesis and NOT acceptable is the liberal use of other languages without any translation.

We have a wide and diverse audience here folks, not all our readers practice our arts or have the benefits of travel overseas...let's truly communicate, ok?

[Rolls]

I have a question. Do you get paid to do this? How much? Do you enjoy your job?

Josh Harne

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Rolls, I believe that your question was a bit out of the line and at least did feel a bit spiky.

Moderators usually don't get paid in these groups. They're just here to set some guidelines that keep discussion enjoyable and comfortable for everyone (like setting some basic lines how the terms and their translations should be used).

I understand finely the issue here. I'm a practicioner of okinawan art by myself. I also train 2 japanese arts. Partially their areas cross each other but terminology in all of those differs greatly.

Also, inside one art the differences may be vast. Example: Middle block can at least be chudanuke, sotouke, uchiuke, gaiwanuke, naiwanuke, shotouke or have some other names. I understand the need of regulation.

However, I feel a bit weak here too. I don't necessarily english names for techniques. So, I ask moderator a bit patience. Stances especially are a problem here for me. (I ask straight away: What is the english name for Shiko-dachi? Some use Straddle stance, but I feel that Kiba-dachi is a straddle stance. Would Shiko-dachi be Sumo-stance?).

Reason for my incapability to express those lies in my backround: I'm finnish, living in Finland and have studied the arts using japanese or okinawan terms. English translations may then be a little awkward.


Jussi

[Kevin Meisner]

This is in response to an elaborate discussion regarding this subject that took place in a previous thread (and perhaps in other threads). Thanks to the moderator for taking the time to consider it. I doubt very much he is paid to do it...

[kusanku]

English terms sound good. We can all learn to explain the empty hand way using English. A good excercise in intellectual development, something no doubt, none ever outgrow.

After some of the terminolgy lists we have been hit with,I'm all for it.Might make some of the style differences seem less different, too.

I mean, anyone who does karate, does horse stance, natural stance, front stance, stepping stance,cat or back stance, front punch, reverse punch, backfist, hammerfist, front, side, roundhouse anad back kicks, jumping or fluiing or spinning techniques and kicks.

Sidestepping,.angulation, footwork, timing, speed and power and form.Combination techniques, formal excercises or routines, and self defense techniques, partner drills, and sparring.

There it is in English, and it doesn't look all that muysterious that way, does it?:-)

Take off the pajamas and lose the belts and bowing,change the titles to coach, assistant coach and students, and would it be that different?

Every other culture which has taken martial arts has assimilated it into their own but Western culture.Maybe its time to do that.

I mean, the Chinese don't wealk around barefoot except in the South some did, and we don't either.And we don't wear gi as daily attire.I mean uniforms.So, why not work out in blue jeans and t shirts, or even suits or sport clothes?

Not being facetious here, just trying to spark some thinking. We might actually, if wee implemented some or all of these changes, get more students. Thanks for the idea, Ted.I think I might try using all English terms and the other stuff, some of which I have been doing, as well.
Sincerely,

[joe yang]

Thank you Mr. Truscott, not that I don't envy you guys who rattle off the Japanese names for technique. I studied Judo with a gym teacher, a college wrestler, who knew some good basics, no Japanese, my instructors in Kung Fu and TKD, were trying so hard to learn English, I'm lucky I can say Sifu and Kwon Chang Nihm. I'm all for English. However, I am also willing and eager to learn. May I suggest, use Japanese terms, but follow with an initial English translation for those of use who are challanged?

Note: Computers do a lot more than spell check these days. Some of us really need to invest in the Chigago Manual of Style, or something.

[Kevin Meisner]

John - I don't know you, but I saved a passage you wrote in the "red and white belt" debate about how you train in jeans, sneakers and t-shirts, no belts, no bowing, use of first names, free classes, etc. I like your perspective.

I wonder if I would have stayed in the martial arts for so long (22 years so far) if there was no belt system, uniform, school traditions, etc. back when I started karate at age 14. I remember I had a great time working my way through the belt colors, etc. Now that I am an adult and have worked my way to a 3rd dan and have been teaching my own classes for 17 years I have no personal need for ranking, and would like nothing better than to just work out in sweats and shoes with no ranking system, etc. (which is what I do when I train outside of my class).

However, my students, particularly the students in my children's class, see things a little differently. Over the past few years I have been revising my program in a number of ways, including reducing the number of adult belt ranks to 5 colors (white, green, purple, brown, black) plus an assistant teacher and teacher grade (although I increased the children's belt colors to 9). No dan levels to earn. We train in cotton/canvas gi pants and school t-shirts with cross training sneakers and karate belts. My students voted on the uniform, they did not want to go to warm up suits or sweat pants, but were happy to lose the gi tops. They also advised me that they enjoyed working through the color belts. I decided for them that there would be no further ranks in my school after black belt.

We use minimal bowing. Almost all terminology in English except kata names. And our fees are very low, but necessary to pay rent and buy kicking shields and focus mitts (which we use a lot).

I feel we have reached a middle ground between "traditional" 20th century karate and the type of training you do. But I wanted to tell you that I appreciate your perspective and am glad that you are posting your ideas. There is a great book, "Martial Arts America," written by a guy named Bob Orlando, that you would like - it talks about many of the ideas in your post above. It is available on amazon.com.

Thanks again.

[kusanku]

Kevin-
Thanks for the good thoughts, friend.It sounds like you are doing quite well, and I understand the necessities of providing some at least of what is demanded in a paying class. I may be starting a paying class sometime soon, it is a possibillity, but as I already established the precedents I use, it should be no problem.

Its good to give people a service that they can benefit from, and its good to have some bechmarks for them, some use belts, others use , say, certificates of completion after they lesarn a new kata or whatever it may be.

Nevertheless, for hard core non traditional instructioon of traditional arts:D if that makes any sense, the way I have been doing it, is pretty workabnle, and the way you are doing it sounds, also very workable.We do bow before the kata starts and use the Okinawan names too, one reason, a bow can be a head butt:-) and I don't know the meaning of some of those kata names any more than anyone else does.

Take care,
John Genjumin Vengel

[Kusoke]

Hallo,

you talked about using english in the martial arts.
In my opinion everybody should decide for himself. But when we talk about it (e.g. in this international way) we should not just use english terms.
I come from Germany. We never used german term for techniques. In Germany we use just the japanese (chinese etc.) terms. I've also never heard the english terms for the techniques.
I don't know how about this in other countries around the world.
But to make it easy to understand for everybody, please do not just use english terms. I know Zenkutsu-Dachi, but i do not know the english word. Sorry.

Osu
Thomas Heinze

[Jeff Cook]

Ted,

Thank you for all you do!

I have had Japanese foreign-exchange students in my dojo, who study karate in Japan, and I have had Japanese sensei in my dojo as guest instructors.

They all took great pride in using English terminology as much as possible, in spite of severe shortcomings in their usage and understanding of English.

Case in point: a Japanese jodo instructor asked me during his instruction, while explaining a certain stance, "what you call this stance?" as he was struggling for the English words.

In my best redneck twang I said "We call that shizentai or hanmi, sir" and we all had a great laugh!

My impression is that the use of Japanese terms, as used by native Japanese instructors, is normal every-day usage for them, and when they are teaching English-speaking folks, they do the natural thing: try to relate the terms in everyday language normal to us.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Martin H]

Originally posted by Jeff Cook
My impression is that the use of Japanese terms, as used by native Japanese instructors, is normal every-day usage for them, and when they are teaching English-speaking folks, they do the natural thing: try to relate the terms in everyday language normal to us.


Then you have no trouble with me using swedish terms to describe a technique? (and only wait until Jussi start to describe something in Finn :-)

The reason we use japanese terms is that this is the terms we have been taught and are used across the globe, to start to guess what a term is in english can only be confusing.
Yes I guess a few of the standard techniques can easily be translated into english, but usualy it is not them that we have trouble with anyway.

The differing terminology is a big problem in martial arts and karate, but lets not add to the problem by guessing what a term translates to in a new (and for most of us foreign) language.

Martin Hultgren

[Sochin]

The easy solution is contained in my first post - Not "English only" but English first or at least second, along with the Japanese, Swedish, Finnish or Urdu.

I know we have strong members here from other language groups that I would never dismiss but we still need to address the fact that if we are trying to communicate rather than something else, the language of most of the readers should be used. Hmmm?

[Kevin Meisner]

I think that it is great that people from countries other than the United States participate in this forum. I think the original discussion was about using Japanese terms to describe concepts that some of us are not familiar with versus explaining them using plain english translations. We were not discussing whether we would be speaking German or French. If that were the case then almost no one from the U.S. could participate in this forum since almost none of us speak anything other than English.

[Jeff Cook]

Martin,

Good point! That is exactly the reason I answered in Japanese when the Japanese sensei asked me what we called "shizentai."

"Then you have no trouble with me using swedish terms to describe a technique?"

If we both spoke Swedish, I would certainly have no problem with that. As we don't both speak swedish, yet we both speak english, I would hope you would use the language we have in common (english AND japanese terminology).

Japanese terminology can be tricky too. Your kokutsu dachi and your oi-tsuki may be significantly different than ones practiced in other styles of karate. However, use of a common language to describe the similarities and differences is the only way we will be able to communicate meaningfully.

As this board is written in english, I think it only makes sense to include the english with the japanese terminology, not replace one with the other.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[MarkF]

Most of the Japanese we use, particularly for certain movements or techniques are short descriptions anyway, and not really names, as in the use of kanji.

I don't know the name for o-soto-gari, but I can describe it: 'major outer reaping throw,' or 'large outside leg sweep.' The are almost endless possibilities and I'm sure most would be correct.

I have very little experience in any form of karate, and I do become frustrated at not understanding the terminology.

If anyone would like English words for terms in the judo forum, one need only ask. For example, I have no real idea about the terms, specifically, those mentioned by Jeff, but I may know the general part of the term, such as tsuki.

It can be frustrating sometimes.

I know a front kick is 'mae geri' because that is what it is in judo parlance, but to add 'front snap kick,' I'd be lost. Of course, I'm assuming there are added or changed terms when discussing a front snap kick instead of mae geri.:)

Mark

[arnie]

Hi all!
For me personally the use of both english and japanese would double my chanses to understand the technique, as opposed to the use of only either one.
Of course it can be difficult to be sure even if both are used, but I doubt I'm the only one here who would appreciate, and benefit from, the use of both!?
If Jussi and Martin on the other hand were to post in their respective native languages, I would have no problems whatsoever to "get the point". But then again, there is a slight risk the rest of you would outvote me if I came up with such a suggestion :-)
I wish you all good training between the debates!
Ari Lappinen

[Martin H]

Originally posted by arnie
Hi all!
For me personally the use of both english and japanese would double my chanses to understand the technique, as opposed to the use of only either one.
Of course it can be difficult to be sure even if both are used, but I doubt I'm the only one here who would appreciate, and benefit from, the use of both!?
If Jussi and Martin on the other hand were to post in their respective native languages, I would have no problems whatsoever to "get the point". But

Naturaly I have no intention of starting to write posts in Swedish :-) what I intended to point out is that several of us who read ebudo do not have english as native tounge and english terms does not come naturaly to us. I generaly have no idea what the japanese terms I use would be in english standard terms (esp. as there is no such thing), and would have to first translate to swedish and then into english with a predictable "chinese whisper" effect.

Nauraly if we cannot give a japanese/hogen/chinese term for something it is in english we should explain it.
HOWEVER.

In the original post by Sochin he stated

...and seldom is there just no way at all to translate a concept into English
and promtly followed this with

Therefore, all participants are asked to write in English with the foreign term for the art in parenthesis, if desired. Less acceptable will be the use of foreign language terms with the English in parenthesis.

I could go along with always describing a term in english, but Personaly, I have no wish to make up a semi-understandable english terms as I go, whenever I post something. And if somone post without the japanese (or other) term included I might not know what they are talking about.

Martin Hultgren

[red_fists]

Hi.

I am not into karate per se, but the topic interests me as we got a similar problem on the Chinese MA Boards.

There we normally use an "English Translation" of the chinese Movement names. But most of the Posters also know the Chinese names for them.
But the Problem is that often the Movements have the same name but the
execution can vary greatly between styles.

So we found communiations difficulties when we tried to use terms like "Grasp Sparrow's Tail" as it differs slightly between styles. Also often styles have slightly different Names for the same movement:

Yang Style: Creeping low like a Snake.
Chen: Dragon sits on the Ground.
Wu: Sparrow on the Ground.
My Style: Panther sits down.

Most of the times though by giving a quick rundown of the movement we can ascertain to which movement it correlates in our own systems.

As for terms like "mae geri" I can understand that that or "front kick" alone will not do to describe a technic, as there can be many types of front kick and different areas of the foot to strike with.

Anyhuh, just my 2 cents.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Umm...if there's nobody against my suggestion, I shall continue my habit to use japanese and english terms for techniques. Thing is, I don't know some english names - or at least two. So, if someone could be kind enough to help me here.

Shiko-dachi. What is the translation? I don't think that it's good to translate it to "straddle stance", since kiba-dachi is something I've learned to call straddle stance (feet forwards and so on). However, in shiko-dachi feet and knees point outwards. So, is the stance name in english sumo-stance or what?

Then again, when talking about two different kokutsu-dachi - other which is like nekoashi-dachi (cat stance) but a bit higher (okinawan version, shotokan does this like shikodachi, weight on back) is rather naturally a "back stance", but how about the other, which is like zenkutsu-dachi (front stance) in reversed form (like you'd be going backwards)? Reverse front stance? Reverse stance?

I'd like to know those. As well as kake uke (wrist block? Grabbing block?) and some others. But those two do fine at first.


Jussi Häkkinen

Ah yes...when it comes to technique names generally, then english, japanese, german, swedish, finnish, norwegian, danish and some other languages would be rather OK for me. However, when talking about japanese/okinawan arts I rather use japanese/okinawan terms with english translations - if that's OK for all?

[Sochin]

"...how about the other, which is like zenkutsu-dachi (front stance) in reversed form (like you'd be going backwards)? Reverse front stance? Reverse stance?"
Jussi Häkkinen

Hi Jussi

We call the back leaning front stance a neo dachi but for the English, back leaning front stance does it for me.

"However, when talking about japanese/okinawan arts I rather use japanese/okinawan terms with english translations - if that's OK for all?"
Jussi Häkkinen

Ok here. :)

[arnie]

No no Jussi, not OK, I must strongly insist that you to use swedish at all time, with optional finnish in parenthesis!
(Just kidding)
I was thinking about the stances; the use of sumo-stance for chiko-dachi would be about as english as to say "chiko-stance" IMHO.
I agree about the use of straddle- or horse stance for kiba, but someone please help us with chiko-dachi!
I'm a bit confused about the back- and cat-stance, though; I've thouht that "cat-stance" can be with back fot pointing either forward ("zenkutsu style") or backward ("chiko or kokutsu style").
If this is correct, you could call them both cat-stance and use back-stance for kokutsu-dachi...and if it's not correct, please let me know, so I can get it right!
Regards,
Ari Lappinen

[Sochin]

If this is correct, you could call them both cat-stance and use back-stance for kokutsu-dachi...and if it's not correct, please let me know, so I can get it right!
Regards,
Ari Lappinen


I don't know about right or wrong but our kokutsa dachi (back stance) has our backfoot 90º to the front and the front foot stretched forward, while the nekoashi dach (cat stance) has the back foot at 45º while the front foot is just one foot's distance in front of the back foot with the heel raised as far up as it will go with the toes still touching.

We don't use chiko dachi at all so I have no idea what sort of stance is implicated!

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Shiko-dachi is a stance you see in the beginning of sumo-competition. If I recall correctly, it's called "jigotai-dachi" in judo. It's practically a straddle stance, but feet point outward, having a 90 degree (about) angle between each other.

I've seen a name "sumo-stance" being used in many occasions. However, that isn't very clear.

Arnie, must correct you here. The name really is shiko-dachi, with s. Meaning is a key here. =)


About the back stance: I know that there are many versions. One of those is a shotokan's long back stance, other is that reversed front stance. Then comes the okinawa-stuff (at least in shorin-ryu styles usually) that is like a cat stance but not so deep. I've also seen some other versions.
I believe I'll use a word "back stance" for those basic versions (maybe a "high cat stance" for okinawan one) and "reversed front stance" for that one which is familiar from kobudo and some styles.


I've attached the picture of shiko-dachi. The stance can be used in many directions, so the upper body isn't so important now. The lower section is the one that counts now.
Picture found from web, photographer Bill Bly, performer Shimabukuro Zenpo, current head of Shorin-Ryu Seibukan Karate-Do

[Asia]

OI!!!!!! (Hey!!!!!) {Is this what we are getting at :laugh: }

Hi I am Asia and I am a e-budoholic!
:look:

Group: Hi Asia!!

The first step is admitting you have a problem!:D


Anyways,


I was thinking about the stances; the use of sumo-stance for chiko-dachi would be about as english as to say "chiko-stance" IMHO

Shiko dachi is best tranlated as "Sumo stance" since shiko is used for refering to sumo (ex Shikona meants a sumo wreselters stage name the shiko in shikona is the same kanji as in shiko dachi) The kanji that makes up Shiko are: Shi (the number four) Ko (thigh, crotch, yarn, strand) See how confusing/fun translating Japanese can be!:laugh: It helps to have an understanding of Japanese culture to understand the language or else we would go around calling it "four crotch stance!!!" :laugh:

American instructor: Little Johnny your must work on you Four Croth stance!

Onlooking parent with no idea of karate: WORK ON WHAT!?!?!?!?! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[arnie]

Asia,
I didn't mean that sumo-stance wouldn't be correct, just that it wouldn't be english.
But I must say I found your post not only amusing, but informative as well! That's really more than one can ask for,
thanks!
Ari Lappinen

[Asia]

Arigato (Thank You) Hey I am getting the hang of this!:D

Hi Arnie,

I wasn't trying to say you were wrong. You could say shiko stance I really wouldn't fault you for it I just was trying to point out that if you didn't know that the term shiko refers to sumo and you just looked up the kanji in a dictionary you can find your self with something as hilarious as "four crotch stance":karatekid

[Gene Gabel]

Originally posted by Jussi Häkkinen
Rolls, I believe that your question was a bit out of the line and at least did feel a bit spiky.




However, I feel a bit weak here too. I don't necessarily english names for techniques. So, I ask moderator a bit patience. Stances especially are a problem here for me. (I ask straight away: What is the english name for Shiko-dachi? Some use Straddle stance, but I feel that Kiba-dachi is a straddle stance. Would Shiko-dachi be Sumo-stance?).

Reason for my incapability to express those lies in my backround: I'm finnish, living in Finland and have studied the arts using japanese or okinawan terms. English translations may then be a little awkward.


Jussi

I vote that from now on the stance known as Sanchin-dachi should be called "The Jerry Lewis stance":laugh:

GEne Gabel

[Steve C]

I reckon that shiko dachi should be henceforth referred to as fat squatting wrestler stance ;)

[larsen_huw]

Well in our dojo Shiko Dachi is generally referred to in english as "sumo stance" or "oh bugger!". The second term is more often used by newcomers once they realise how painful a good shiko dachi stance is! :-)

Another point about the use of Japanese and English terms is spelling. I know how to pronouce the Japanese for a lot more techniques than i can spell it for! This might have something to do with the fact i can't spell in Engish, let alone Japanese! :-)

For example, i know cat stance is Nekawashi Dachi, but i have no idea if that is spelt correctly, i just type it as i say it! I'm happy to add a Japanese translation (if i know it), but people have to tolerate my horrific spelling!

[Asia]

For example, i know cat stance is Nekawashi Dachi, but i have no idea if that is spelt correctly, i just type it as i say it! I'm happy to add a Japanese translation (if i know it), but people have to tolerate my horrific spelling!

Romanization is a good thing but not always accurate as we try to find letter combinations to match the sounds of the foreign language. With that said.

The common romanized spelling is Neko (cat) ashi (leg) dachi (tachi, stand) Pronounced like (Neko ashee dach)

[larsen_huw]

Asia,

Thank you for your help, i will try and remember that!

[Steven Malanosk]

Neko Ashi Dachi = Cat Foot Stance, not cat leg stance.

Ashi = foot as in ashi barrai = foot sweep.

[Goju Man]

I just got tired of seeing Steves' post.:D

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Hmm. I just saw an translation for shikodachi in one Goju-Ryu article. They used "sitting stance" as a translated name for it. It's a bit too vaguely describing for my tastes. I'd like to know whether that name is commonly used among the English speaking folks?

Ashibarai...now, that's a thing that is a bit open (nothing wrong with terms being a bit open). OK, it is "ashi" as "foot", "harai" as "sweep". However, it doesn't describe the nature of the footsweep any further. We tend to use a term ashibarai about several different foot sweeping actions. One example is an outwards version of low sukui uke (scooping block) being called as ashibarai (all OK), then there is a version of mikasuki geri (crescent kick) being called as ashibarai (well, that can well be seen that way)...all that among other techniques. I somehow think that a relatively open terminology is a good thing as well. :)

[Rob Alvelais]

Hi Jussi,

I was under the impression that barai/harai = deflection. So, in that sense, any of the various foot sweeps/pulls, etc would be covered by the term "ashi barai".

As for Shiko Dachi, I've typically seen it translated as "Sumo Stance" or "Square stance" or "Squatting Stance".

Rob



Originally posted by Jussi Häkkinen
Hmm. I just saw an translation for shikodachi in one Goju-Ryu article. They used "sitting stance" as a translated name for it. It's a bit too vaguely describing for my tastes. I'd like to know whether that name is commonly used among the English speaking folks?

Ashibarai...now, that's a thing that is a bit open (nothing wrong with terms being a bit open). OK, it is "ashi" as "foot", "harai" as "sweep". However, it doesn't describe the nature of the footsweep any further. We tend to use a term ashibarai about several different foot sweeping actions. One example is an outwards version of low sukui uke (scooping block) being called as ashibarai (all OK), then there is a version of mikasuki geri (crescent kick) being called as ashibarai (well, that can well be seen that way)...all that among other techniques. I somehow think that a relatively open terminology is a good thing as well. :)

[Harry Cook]

If you look at the Sino-Japanese characters for shiko-dachi you will se that they read something like "four-thighs/haunches-stance". The second character KU (Chinese) or KO (Japanese) is also used to mean a share or a portion, a division, so shiko dachi could be understood as something like "four section stance".
I have also been told that shiko-dachi means "four hips stance" which is meant to imply that it gives you the stability of someone with four hips, but I think this is a mistake. Someone has confused the KO of shiko with the character KOSHI meaning hips/waist.
Yours,
Harry Cook

[MarkF]

Hi Jussi,

I was under the impression that barai/harai = deflection. So, in that sense, any of the various foot sweeps/pulls, etc would be covered by the term "ashi barai".


In judo terms it generally refers to a sweep, though deflection works, too, it is the action being described so "sweep" is what you do while deflecting/blocking motion.

De-ashi-harai, harai goshi, the first "forward foot sweep," the second, "hip sweep," but deflection fits, too. In the foot sweep you are deflecting the foot from taking a forward step, in harai goshi, you are deflecting forward advancement of the body.

In both cases, it has several meanings, it is perception that counts.


Mark

[Old Dragon]

Hi:

An interesting dicussion, I have heard lots of good Ideas, Mr. Meisner sounds like you have a great handle on it.

I have A Karate Sensei who trained in Okinawa for many years under Tatsuo Shimabuku. Sensei is AJ Advincula, he says that Shimabuku Sensei encouraged using the language of the land to teach martial arts.

I also have a Kobudo Sensei, Hidemi Tamayose, who is Okinawan and until recently spoke virtually no english. Using the Japanese Terms in this situation was advantageous. It helped us get a start point. Gave us a common ground.

I am torn here. For the kids I teach in english because it is quite redundant as to weather they learn the japanese or not. For the Adults or those senior kids who will encounter My kobudo sensei I encourage learning the basic japanese terminoligy for the kihon and basic techniques. Kata as someone said is always by its name, we dont translate the name.

I am finding that Sensei asks the english translation and is trying to use it, so you see he is trying to communicate with us in our language. This interaction puts a whole new light on statements like "We teach the japanese as a respect and rememberance of where the art comes from" I agree with this, but maybe we have gone a bit overboard and have added difficulties to our teaching cirriculum.

As I said... I have found a value in it.. but not the one I originally thought it was. I valure knowing the japanese terms because of my interaction with a wonderful teacher who barely speaks my language, nothing more, nothing less.

Mike O'leary