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shinbushi
20th September 2001, 18:31
As an instructor of the Bujinkan, Soke Masaaki Hatsumi has always stated that we should only teach good people. We have a responsibility to not put the power of our traditions into the wrong hands. He said in olden times if you created a monster, you had to go out and kill him. As reported on 20/20 (Hijackers Trained Here ) (http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/video_index/Video_index.html) Wed. Sept 19, one of the terrorists on flight 93 (the one that fought back) trained at a martial art school in Florida. I would hate to have been the one that trained him. We all need to be careful whom we teach.
I know that this is difficult, but we need to know our students. My heart goes out to the instructor he must feel like crap.

KenpoKev
21st September 2001, 05:17
However, the judo guy (Mr. Glick) apparently won that exchange. But I agree, it is wise to carefully evaluate who you are teaching.

Kevin Meisner
22nd September 2001, 10:36
Hmm. There are ways to predict behavior, but I am not sure that most martial arts instructors gather that much information about their students to make an assessment before allowing the students to train in their schools. I wonder if there is a resource out there that could provide some sort of questionnaire that could be utilized by martial arts instructors to predict whether there is a risk that a prospective student will abuse the knowlege received. Similarly, perhaps flight schools and other types of schools should screen prospective students. What criteria would we use to exclude/disqualify people from training in our schools? Conviction of a felony? Child abuse? Spousal abuse? Cruelty to animals? Bullying? Maybe if we pool our ideas we can come up with a set of questions, the answers to which could be used to help us determine whether we accept a person as a student or not. What do the rest of you think?

Steven Malanosk
22nd September 2001, 18:50
Hello,

Well, unfortunatly we now must be more carefull, but there are a lot of variables on that.

When I was going to Parris Island USMC Bootcamp in 79. we had a guy from Nicaragua with us. He told me, that he was there to learn, and take what he learned home.

He later turned out to be a Sandanista, and some of us later went to Central America to face most likely what we gave them to begin with. Go figure.

I also had a guy with me in Okinawa who was taken away one day by Naval Intell., for being a known Orangeman from Irish militant roots. Wow, we where in 3d Recon Bn.! I guess he got some good stuff to take home.

Allan Lee Sifu, used to do FBI checks on prospective students in the 60s and early 70s. But is that possible anymore? Perhaps NOW it will be.

I forsee problems.

My main dojo is on my property, is private, and I teach who I want. = period.

But my satellite dojo is at a rec center. I expect problems when I turn down people for reasons debatable.

Freedom at the price of eternal viligance!

sistaninja
23rd September 2001, 15:31
I find it hard to believe that if you are an experienced/mature instructor you don't get some idea/vibe from people who are going to rip you off, abuse the skills or arts. Naivety around this usually disappears pretty quickly after you open your doors and get done over a few times I would think!

However, the issue is complicated by a number of factors - not least of whcih is that martial arts training is often characterised by an understanding that you are respected for who you are in the dojo. Sometimes little is known about practitioners private lives.

I know this is no guarantee - and other instructors might have different standards - but our view is life is too short for this kind of hassle, so in our dojo our registration form lists terms that prospective students must agree to.

We now state they must tell us if they have a criminal record before they start, and that they will be asked for a police clearance at brown belt stage, and possibly again at black at our discretion.

I used to think this was a bit unfair if someone had something relatively minor going on in their youth - and the part of me that wants to give people a fair go still thinks this. However, as I go on the more cynical part of me is learning that students with a 'past' have been the ones more likely to do the wrong thing by us as teachers...so I am getting harder on that one. Bujinkan membership excludes those with a record anyway.

We also ask that they disclose any physical or mental health issues that might affect their training. We state that disclosure will not necessarily mean they are excluded from training, but that non-disclosure of something which later becomes a problem may. We also include other things like training under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs, training with illegal weapons, using the skills outside the dojo and bringing the dojo into disrepute.

Students must agree to each point seperately so we know they have actually read the fine print - by stating all this upfront - potential students get the idea of what we accept or don't pretty quickly.

We are also taking more time to actually interview potential students rather than just letting them assume they can automatically join up. We are moving from just getting people to fill out their registration forms to using them as interview guides.

The question has also prompted me to think there is probably a role for senior students here. I know over the years as a student I was aware of some things other students were getting up to that the teacher was not aware of.

Don Cunningham
23rd September 2001, 18:24
My biggest fear is that they might learn Juko-Kai's Combat Ki. Then it wouldn't matter how often or how hard we kick them in the groin. :laugh:

Sorry, I couldn't resist this line.

Steven Malanosk
23rd September 2001, 21:06
Hey Don,

It wouldnt do them any good.

You see, supposed warriors who kill defensless noncombatants, dont have any BALLS!

joe yang
25th September 2001, 04:57
The second best fighter I ever saw started training when he was sixteen. Who knew then he would grow up to be a sociopath? When GM Kim started to suspect, he shared his deep concern with those of us close to him. What to do? Turn this student loose? The guy was bullying students, losing business. Try to keep him, shape him, mold him, be responsible? Cut the schools lose? That's when I got to see the best fighter I ever knew. GM Kim, in a blinding flurry of back straight kicks got to be a weakly sight. Our "rouge" fighter never got the message. He went pro in the 80's. The last I heard he was a CO, in jail, for assualting an inmate. At the time, who knew? By all means, be carefull. On that note, anyone ever read the Trullson Report?

BC
26th September 2001, 18:17
The hijacker in question was Ziad Jarrah, and was on Flight 93. He trained for more than 20 hours at U.S. 1 Fitness in Dania Beach, FL. According to his instructor, Bert Rodriguez:

"He wanted to learn about fighting and control -- about being in control and how to control somebody...I liked the guy. He was very humble, very quiet...He was very to himself and didn't want to be in a situation where he would get picked on." (from the Sun-Sentinel, 9/19/2001)

I seem to recall from another article that I can't find that Ziad was actually trained privately in close quarter combatives such as strikes and takedowns, and was the same or similar kind to training offered to law enforcement officials. However, he only trained for about 20 hours, so how skilled could he have become? I'm only vaguely familiar with such training, so I really don't know. I suppose maybe enough to intimidate civilians untrained in martial arts. I doubt it was enough to help much against a judo champion though. There are perhaps some lucky people in Washington who are alive today because of Jeremy Glick. Makes one wonder...

-Robert Cronin

Kevin Meisner
27th September 2001, 03:12
If a person has a solid foundation, or a lot of determination, and the teacher is really good, you might be surprised what a person can learn in 20 hours. Try an Impact/Model Mugging weekend course, or a weekend with Peyton Quinn at RAMCAT, for instance...

Steven Malanosk
27th September 2001, 04:10
Speaking from experience in training USMC personnel in close combat “ hand to hand, bayonette etc.” let me share this with you.

20 hrs will not make you a yudansha equivelent.

20 hrs will not make you a tournament champ

20 hrs will not enable you to totally digest an advanced kata, bunkai and all.

20 hrs is enough time to train a zealous troop, who already has the mind set, and understands that he will most likely be using what he learns in the near future.

In ww2 the Japanese military, passed on my KaraTe style “GoJu” because they saw the foundation “SanChin” as taking too long to learn and develop, so they went with Funakoshi Sensei’s school of thought, figuring that it would be quicker to digest for the troops.

Anastacio Samoza had Mike Echanis train his folks in martial arts in Nicaragua prior to the coup wich followed both of their assassinations. I cant quote exact time frames, but I CAN tell you, that the job did not take all that much time, and a lot was accomplished.

US Marines graduate bootcamp as basic rifle infantry men in about 11 weeks.

That’s not very much time to turn out a fighting machine, albeit not yet trained in a specialty yet, but none the less, a fighting machine.

If the material is direct and basic as to getting the job done quickly and properly, 20 hrs is more than enough.

I want everyone to take a close look at the average time a student spends in the dojo, learning and practicing stretches, basics, sparring ,meditation or whatever it is they do.

Add all the ACTUAL hrs of training and do the math as far as how that would be divided into how many classes.

Now, eliminate the ART and leave only basic quick kill or restraining/ disarming and incapasitating moves, such as real effective strikes, locks and perhaps strangulations.

I am not speaking of the student who needs to develop self confidence or physical strength. Nor am I speaking of the average civilian mentality.

It takes a special kind of person to be able to kill without thought.


That type of person, although with long term training would be superior, does not need long term martial arts training to get the job done against the untrained or semi trained.

I am not interested in debate on this subj.

Just wanted to share that bit of insight with you.

Kevin Meisner
27th September 2001, 12:18
Steven, I think you put this one to bed. Thanks for your insight.

Steven Malanosk
27th September 2001, 19:55
:up: :mst: Thank you gentlemen.

jotaro
4th October 2001, 04:49
I think it is just as important to get to know people after they join a dojo. Some of these guys with fake drivers licenses etc would be hard to spot. I doubt you could tell just by looking at someone and reading what they write on an application or even doing a criminal check would tell you everything. My instructor says the first thing he judges in new students is there "spirit" I think that should be the ultimate test. It would be horrible for anyone to start turning away students just because of the way they look or because they are a little strange. Many of the people I've trained with seemed pretty wacked but it doesn't make them a terrorist. . .:p

:laugh:

Thomas Wahl
7th October 2001, 07:27
Hi!

Ok, I think the occassion's that one of us will have terrorists as students, will be very very rare. The problem is how to find out, if it's godd or not to train that new person.
In my school I use "testsubscriptions". Here a person can train with us 4 weeks like a normal student for a quite little fee. After that 4 weeks that person can decide if he/she want's to continue with a longterm contract. But I as a instructor can also decide, if I want to keep that person. And in 4 weeks You get a feeling for that person. You can see how he reacts when being hurt in training accidently or when he is corrected, when You put him under pressure. For me I'm not so much afraid of training terrorist's, but more of training bullies and criminals. And that people are quite easy to recognize! If I have the feeling or impression that this is such a person, I tell him immeadiatly to go or I make the training in a way, that he may not like it and doesn't come back.

It is also very important for an instructor to check the person good (here in Germany we can also get info by police), because one bad person can ruin the reputation of a school completly!

The problem with terrorists will be, that they are, as we saw, very humble, quiet, and gentle persons. So normally we wouldn't suspect anything. Some of those WTC-Bombers of September were studying and living over here in Germany and were described by neighbors as nice quiet people. So should I start to exclude all people who ar Muslims (Turks, Arabs,...) from my training? Then I would be called a Nazi over here!

TheWind
17th October 2001, 14:44
It is difficult to evaluate everyone that comes to your dojo. If I had stayed in my small home dojo, I have much control over whom I teach. when I open my doors to the world......I have limitations. Can I act in a manner that is boderline discrimination?
I hadan offer several years ago to train a group, for $ 5000, they wanted to know the 'hard core stuff' it was easy to see they had illegal intentions, especially ones that I was able to verify.
For most instructors, the amount of students you need to pay the bills makes it hard. In one instance a respected instructor, for his good works, has always taught a large percentage of gang types. LEOs that I know that deal in the town have told me many times his students pay he is high rates with crime.
I get a different sort of student, I have little to worry about, I get women, nerds and LEOs.
My art, which is combat oriented and street effective, does work with less than 20 hours of training. But my wife, my co-instructor, and I are putting more traditional techniques in our program. That is why I will get the type of student that wants to fight, I am more selective in regards to short term training. But since I am Jewish and a LEO, the ones I would not want to teach...don't come to me. My simple aximon is that 'birds of a featherr stick together', I teach decent people that are concerned for themeselves and those on the outside of the law, want no art of my school.
Robert Murie, THe Way of One

kenshorin
17th October 2001, 14:52
Originally posted by Thomas Wahl

In my school I use "testsubscriptions". Here a person can train with us 4 weeks like a normal student for a quite little fee. After that 4 weeks that person can decide if he/she want's to continue with a longterm contract. But I as a instructor can also decide, if I want to keep that person. And in 4 weeks You get a feeling for that person. You can see how he reacts when being hurt in training accidently or when he is corrected, when You put him under pressure. For me I'm not so much afraid of training terrorist's, but more of training bullies and criminals. And that people are quite easy to recognize! If I have the feeling or impression that this is such a person, I tell him immeadiatly to go or I make the training in a way, that he may not like it and doesn't come back.


We do the same "trial month" in our dojo. Like you said not only does it give the student a chance to see what we are about, it gives us a chance to figure out whether the person is someone who we want in our dojo or not. It works quite well.

Ken DeCouto

George Hyde
24th October 2001, 15:43
Hi All,

I've had a few 'unattractive' types in my dojo over the years, but I've never once had to invite any of them to leave. Why? Because after one or two sessions they realise that whatever it is they're looking for, they won't find it in my class. If they don't come to this realisation for themselves, then I make a point of spelling it out to them.

In Shorinji Kempo we have a very comprehensive, contemporary philosophy which is largely designed to ensure the responsible application of what we learn. It also encompasses the wider ideals of communal responsibility and emphasises the true nature of budo as a means for cultivating character over simply learning how to overwhelm and defeat another individual. These teachings are an integral part of every lesson and as such it is extremely difficult for anyone not interested in being responsible, co-operative, productive members of society to ignore. As a consequence, any such individuals tend to leave of their own volition.

Speaking then from personal experience, I would find it hard to perceive of anyone spending time acquiring martial skills with illegal/immoral intent to be able to do so unless they found some support or acceptance of those motives within the training environment. If not explicit, they would at least need to sense some degree of tolerance for those motives (humble, well-intentioned religious/political extremists aside - however 'evil' others may judge their intent).

I question the validity of 'entrance questionnaires' in an effort to identify 'bad' students, since few people are likely to be open about their illegal/immoral intent. Signing up to a set of minimum requirements is a good idea, but once again, any such individuals will be unlikely to give much consideration to signing a contract with the intent of ignoring its requirements. Thereafter it falls to the instructor to observe and judge their attitude/behaviour to be acceptable or otherwise, which is how it should be.

In addition to the content of the teachings, I can thank the manner in which Shorinji Kempo is presented to the potential student for the lack of problem students. Any styles that make a point of advertising such things as "lethal secrets, death touches, and bone-breaking techniques" have only themselves to thank for students with difficult attitudes and/or malicious intent.

Later,

Shinobiwolf
1st November 2001, 05:29
Hi! I couldn't help but add my humble 2 cents on this subject.

It's really refreshing to see responsible martial artists out there who understand the real spirit of budo. It's one thing to keep society safe by teaching people how to protect themselves. It's quite another to keep society safe by protecting the teaching from those who would use it unjustly. To make the distinction between who is "just" or "unjust" is quite a complicated task. The wisdom of the teacher is put to the test. Unfortunately, many teachers are motivated by profit FIRST and that tends to influence their common sense in evaluating potential students. I'm sure these terrorists flashed a lot of cash (as they did during their night out before the suicide bombings) and that may have clouded any "signals" that these people were "just not right".

In my experiences, I've learned that teachers that only focus on the raw, physical techniques, emphasising brutality and destruction, tend to fall prey to training the "criminally inclined". In our school, we teach in a very light hearted way with laughter and an attitude of "having fun". Those with bad intentions tend to just disappear. We teach principles of combat and the raw, real-life combat skills are just glimpses (examples) of those principles. I have found that people I thought were kinda shady tended to fade out quickly because they are not getting the "step 1, step 2 and kill your victim" type of training. They also can't truly laugh like the rest of the class and usually are not comfortable. Of course, these are the easy ones to spot...

I agree with those of you that use a trial period as a kind of "exploration" period. It allows the potential student to see if the training is what they want and it also allows the teacher to see if the student is the type of student the teacher wants. My hat goes off to those of you that use this time responsibly. For any of you that have discontinued teaching people that didn't seem "just", I thank you for protecting the safety of my family, friends and self.

Peace and happiness,
Darren Dumas

P.S. Sorry! My 2 cents turned into 2 dollars. That's why I let my wife handle the money...

Tabitha Miller
9th November 2001, 19:17
One underlying theme throughout these responses is the idea that the Florida instructor may have been cultivating the worst in an already evil person.
If this terrorist was raised in a hostile environment, possibly an orphan raised by the Taliban after the Soviet conflict, his intentions were not entirely evil. When someone acts in a way he/she believe is righteous and will improve the world around them (paradigm specific, of course) and ease the suffering of others, that is not an intrinsically bad notion.
This is also something that the instructor may detect, but mistake for a humble and admirable personality since he or she cannot read minds.
I also feel overwhelming sympathy for the instructor.
Every human being is a product of their past and present experiences. I also feel remorse for the young Afghani, regardless of his horrific act. His other teachers misled him.
Now for the question...sorry, I'm new and easily ramble.
Do you believe the new student is capable of "screening" a new teacher? There have undoubtedly been people in the past who have trained in order to gain dominance over others and take it upon themselves to teach others how to go about this task.
What are all of your thoughts?
Thank you,
Tabitha

Don Cunningham
9th November 2001, 20:33
This is sort of related and I would appreciate any information anyone has on this.

I've heard a couple of 10 o'clock news teaser ads about how there was some evidence that many of the terrorists might not have known they were going to be kamikaze. However, I've never actually been able to catch the full story or seen anything in print about this.

I guess it is conceivable. It also makes some sense, in a weird sort of way. Trying to get a group to decide where we're all going for lunch can often be difficult. Getting everyone in agreement to hijack a plane and then fly into a big building to die a horrible flaming death would seem a bigger problem.

Has anyone seen any evidence that some of the terrorists thought they were only hijacking a passenger plane? Do you think this might have played any part in their prior martial arts training? For example, do you think they were also looking for something to steel their nerves?

Jody Holeton
9th November 2001, 23:02
Dear all,

This is a very interesting read and an important subject for teachers.

1st I believe the martial arts have been adapted to try and improve students (look at the whole "morale" rule thing that most schools promote). Most schools here in Michigan try and push some sort of honor system.

2nd Most schools in America SELL information. There are quite a few instructors here in Michigan who would have no problem selling specific techniques or tricks for $$$.

3rd how do you weed out bad students? Isn't that profiling?


Another question I would like to ask the group is should other types of teachers who taught these terrorists skills feel ashamed?

I am an English teacher and I teach a wide range of skills and functions to my ESL/EFL students. The Middle East is a great place for English teachers to make MONEY but it also trains "bad people".....

Dojorat
10th November 2001, 15:45
Greetins,

Before I forget, in an attempt to keep E-Budo somewhat self-moderating, I'd like to remind Mr/Ms, TheWind of the E-Budo policy that requires we sign our full names to posts. That being said... I said I wasn't going to jump in but here I go.

This is anecdotal. I was "minding the store" sitting at the front desk answering phones etc. for the dojocho when in comes this "gentleman" He sits down and explains that he's about to be arraigned on marijuana charges and he's fairly certain he's going to end up in prison. He'd like to learn something in the short meantime that could help keep his bodily orifaces the same size as when he came in. Figuring this was one for someone with more experience (and responsibility)I immediately asked him to wait one moment, excused myself and went to get Sensei.

I'm tempted to digress and ask what you think we did. However, to make a long story longer... We told the guy we didn't think we could help him, given the short amount of time he probably had. We advised him, once he got "inside" to take up some routine physical activity... running, basketball, handball, weightlifting... anything so that he would, if nothing else, project an image and impression of being physically fit and, if accosted, capable of some resistance. It also would help with his mental attitude. We figured these would lessen his chance of being victimized. It might also put him amongst others with like mindsets and help give him the protection of a "herd." We never did find out if the advice was of any value.

Anyway, I don't know if that counts as "teaching convicted drug dealers" but that's what we did.

Cheers,

Shinobiwolf
10th November 2001, 21:02
Thank you, dojorat, for you and your sensei's wisdom in this situation. I certainly understand this "gentleman's" fear, but he isn't the mold that should learn what proper martial arts teach. If he was, he wouldn't have been messing with illegal drugs to begin with. Besides, who knows how many other crimes he may have committed before getting caught on this one. You don't even know if this is a possible parole violation, "Third Strike" conviction (for California), or what. You could be showing him how to protect his "ass"ets, but it might be some innocent victim that also gets the results of that training down the road sometime after he's out (return rates on felons is around the 90 percentile). He may even be wanting to know how to kill the person who snitched him to the police...

So, just like my previous post, thank you for keeping my family, friends and self a little safer by turning this "gentleman" away. And, if all he does is come out a better basketball player in prison, that's just fine with me!

In spirit of budo,
Darren Dumas

Dojorat
10th November 2001, 21:40
Greetins,

Mr. Dumas, on behalf of my instructor, you're quite welcome. This, like many other lessons a good teacher shares, wasn't part of any form.

Mr. Cunningham,
I found your question about the willingness of the other terrorists aboard the 9/11 flights most interesting. I quoted your message above and started a new thread on E-budo's "Spotlight on Terrorism" forum. I hope you don't mind.

Cheers,

Joe

Reishiki
21st January 2002, 01:50
I know it's been a while but........

A quote from "Hagakure"
"At the time when there was a council concerning the the promotion of a certain man, the council members where at the point of deciding that promotion was useless because of the fact that the man had previously been involved in a drunken brawl. But someone said " If we were to cast aside every man who had made a mistake once, useful men could probably not be come by. A man who makes a mistake once will be considerably more prudent and useful because of his repentance. I feel that he should be promoted." Someone else then asked, "Will you guarantee him?" The man replied, "Of course I will." The others asked, "By what will you guarantee him?" And he replied, " I can guarantee him by the fact that he is a man who has erred once. A man who has never once erred is dangerous." This said the man was promoted.

Sometimes there are people out there who certainly aren't perfect. But maybe it's a martial arts teacher that they need most of all. If we were to turn them all away then they may just miss out on that one chance. A young lady came to me for training recently, in fact she was brought in by her priest. I knew that she was obviously not of good character. A few weeks passed and she disappeared and after enquiries I found out that she had ended up in jail. By going on what everyone has said so far I
should have forgotten about her. But I received a call from her warder asking me to come and see her. You see, in those few weeks together I had made such an impact on her that all she could talk about was wanting to talk to me. A huge pat on the back I think and humble feelings of inflated ego,:D . But the point is, what good are we only teaching good people, they're already ok, why not try to teach a few bad ones as well and try to make a difference.

Dean Woodhams.

Kevin Meisner
21st January 2002, 02:26
Good point, Dean!

Kevin Meisner

Chuck Munyon
28th January 2002, 21:25
Sorry to drag this one back from the dead, but I had missed it before and have something that I really want to add to it:
My instructor in California, for whom I was assistant instructing, would often accept students (especially younger students) who were from rough backgrounds. I happen to think that some of those kids would have ended up washed up if it wasn't for him; even some of the adults that he accepted were questionable, but also benefitted a lot, I think. The main reasons that things worked out well, were
a) We started with very basic, non-lethal material at the lower ranks. Lots of stance-work, basic strikes, balance drills, and a lot of blocking and evading stuff. We also put a lot of emphasis on cameraderie and sense of community, belonging to the dojo at the same time as the dojo partly belongs to you.
b) When we tested students for rank promotion, we tested them hard. You can get a decent feel for someone in a normal class, but you can get a much better feel in a test when you really start leaning on them. The people who show attitude under pressure or react as if threatened in some way don't go on to the next rank, don't learn the more dangerous material, and get to work some more on the philosophical aspects of the art. This tends to weed out those who are just trying to become lethal weapons, while allowing those who might at first look questionable to stay and try and turn their lives around with the powerful force for change that is budo.

NLMontana
15th August 2006, 02:18
I am a brand new member, and it was this particular discussion that drove me to register. This will probably not even be read, as it is ancient to all of you, but it burns in my solar plexus, because I really want to rage against all the judgment that was passed on a teacher who only did what he thought was the right thing.

I am a former student of Bert Rodriguez. He is a man of the highest integrity. He is talented, capable, informative, a phenomenal teacher, and a man I will respect for all of my days as truly a Master, in every sense of the word. He takes responsibility for his actions, or inactions, as the case may be. But most importantly, he is human.

Just because we wear the title of Master, Sifu, Shihan, etc., ad nauseum, and even if we have developed senses well beyond the physical, this does not mean that we are perfect. We all misjudge, both at and beyond the physical. There are those who have perfected the art of deception, who are capable of being exquisitely masked sheep, yet who eventually bear the fangs of a wolf. We are all tested -- every day -- some with more difficult tests to face than others. Passing or failing is not at issue. Facing these tests and their eventual outcomes and remaining standing tall regardless of the outcome, is the true test of mastery. In that regard, I think Master Rodriguez is a giant.

Perhaps the answer to all of this is to go back to the true teachings of martial arts, where fighting at the physical is not only an illusion, but where we live the philosophy that the true study is of ourselves, not of the forms, and certainly not of fighting.

Thank you.

Blackwood
15th August 2006, 15:32
Interesting. Reading the quote from "Hagakure" above brought to mind a teacher that went against the ruling of the council and ended up teaching the individual that became Darth Vader.

There is a lot to be said for the fact that it takes years to become an effective martial artist. The traditional systems are more likely to screen out the less desireables simply through time. Those types tend to have less patience then those with the true budo temperament and quickly get tired of the repetition and the time it takes to learn kata and the like. Which gives rise to many of the 'fighting' schools that eliminate many of the traditional aspects.

And while it would devastate me to learn that a former student had used the skills to evil purposes, it is, to a certain extent, offset by the students that have protected themselves and their families by what I have taught. There is a moral risk in almost everything that we do. If we are not willing to accept some level of risk, there is not much left for us to do in any aspect of our lives. I know a very skilled knife maker that created beautiful works of art, but stopped making knives upon learning that one of his creations had been used to kill someone.

There is a Yin and Yang to all things.

NLMontana
16th August 2006, 00:45
Thank you, Blackwood, for stating the essence of it all. And for all of the powerful, great, mediocre and awful students we train, we each also have the potential to provide knowledge to some being bent on fulfilling his Jihad, to provide a knife to a man who would use it to kill, to teach form to another who would use it against us. If we read the language of their souls through form, we might be able to avoid this . . . but then again, it may be our role to fulfill.

I am sad for your knife-making friend who abandoned his art because someone chose to use his creation to take a life. How many used his creations in other, peaceful ways? Perhaps if he saw the yin and yang of it all, he would have accepted that if that man had not used one of his knives, he would have found another's creation to fulfill what he believed his destiny to be. Creating the knives did not cause a man to die. Someone else chose to make that happen.

The same can be said for Master Rodriguez. While he did his best to evaluate the energy of all of his students, both at and beyond the physical, his teachings did not cause that man to hijack an airplane and to be able to defend himself. It was the man's choice to take what he learned to cause harm to others. I know Master Rodriguez did not teach him to do that.

And remember, in the end it was Darth Vader who helped to secure freedom for the people of the Universe, so he, too, had a role to play, so full of yin and yang.

Thank you so much for responding.

Jack Chen
4th April 2007, 11:46
Suppose you have a guy who wanna train at your dojo, and you see him as a psycho-to-be. How do you reject him?

Straight in the face with a "Sorry I won't teach you a single thing." ?

trevorg
5th April 2007, 16:38
Two choices as I see it:

1) you talk it through and try to understand is situation.
2) you say 'no'.
Osu
Trevor

shotofan
8th April 2007, 17:10
That is the main reason y I don't teach. Unless I have know the people for a few years. But right now I am training my girls. I want 2 feel safe know that they will be able to defend them selves.

warmystc
22nd April 2007, 06:12
You have many resources available. One is your state(s) Criminal Justice websites. Here, you can access corrections websites, which provides a lot of information on sex offender living in your area, escapee information, citizen's organizations and so much more. Another resource is reporter, television, newspaper and radio. They may have contacts with police, prosecutors, defense lawyers and so forth. If they know anything, they will inform you and educate you too. I hope this will help.

Moenstah
23rd April 2007, 07:50
Suppose you have a guy who wanna train at your dojo, and you see him as a psycho-to-be. How do you reject him?

Straight in the face with a "Sorry I won't teach you a single thing." ?

Or you pin him down on the ground, have the police come, and get a restraining order. Which happened in our dojo.

allyismycopilot
13th January 2010, 00:23
When I was going to Parris Island USMC Bootcamp in 79. we had a guy from Nicaragua with us. He told me, that he was there to learn, and take what he learned home.

My old man was a drill instructor at Parris Island in '79. I hope you didn't have to deal with Staff Sgt. Stevens!

donnamartin
30th March 2016, 09:51
I am Totally agree with shinbushi post. Being a teacher i had many experiences of different kind of students. It is very necessary to be careful who you teach.

HamsterDude
25th November 2016, 15:57
Being a teacher, an instructor, is as hard as being a parent... so, we get use to the students and it is very hard to overcome when they turn from us, when they disappoint us (the teachers).
That’s why here the strategy should be as care full as possible… like in parenting…