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Jimmy Francoeur
21st September 2001, 21:00
Greetings to All!

I have read the novel "Musashi" by Eiji Yoshikawa and I was wondering if the relation between Musashi and Takuan soho the zen priest is just plain fantasy or there is an historical basis to this? I admit this is a trivia but this is intriguing. :)

Thank You and have all a nice week-end :toast:
Jimmy Francoeur :toast:

ghp
21st September 2001, 23:35
Jimmy,

It was fiction. Sorry. But, it did make a good story.

--Guy

Nathan Scott
22nd September 2001, 00:53
Hello Mr. Francoeur,

"Legend" apparently has it that Takuan was friendly with Musashi, but this seems to be unverified.

Takuan did at least correspond with the famous Yagyu Munenori (and possibly Ono Tadaaki of Itto ryu). Takuan just have made quite an impression on Munenori. If I recall correctly, Munenori refers to Takuan in the Heiho Kadensho.

The book "The Unfettered Mind" (by Takuan Soho/ Kodansha books) contains three letters to Munenori - and maybe Tadaaki.

Good reading.

Jimmy Francoeur
24th September 2001, 15:50
Hi Nathan and Guy!

I am not very surprise by the fact that there is no proof of the relation between Musashi and Takuan. I was not aware of the relation between Yagyu Munenori and Takuan Soho until this week. It is strange because, I have order last week Sword & Mind by Yagyu Munenori and The Unfettered Mind by Takuan Soho. Seem to me that I have made an order that goes well along :D

By the way, I am aware that Tendai and Shingon, and Pure Land were more related to koryu than Zen. But does the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Hyoho is more philosophically influenced by Zen than Mikkyo? Or it is just that Takuan Soho made a great impression on Yagyu Munenori but this relation never have an influence on the Ryu itself?

p.s. I hope my messages are not too painful to read, I fear my english is far from perfect...:(

Take care every ones and have a nice day! :wave:
Jimmy

hyaku
24th September 2001, 17:01
Hello there

Musashi had been friends witha priest called Shuzan of the Ta sho temple in Kumamoto.

Regards Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

Nathan Scott
24th September 2001, 20:10
Hello,

I'm not qualified to comment about the degree Zen influenced YSR as compared to that of esoteric Buddhism.

The Zen principles that Takuan passed to Munenori apparently did become incorporated into his art to some degree. But beyond that, you'll have to hope that Mr. Skoss or someone else initiated in YSR will offer further comment.

Have fun with your new books. They are not the quickest reads, but they are very interesting.

Regards,

Chris deMonch
24th September 2001, 20:37
I've posted this before on Bugei's forum to sa similar question, but here it is again:

"There seems to be a lot of misconceptions as to the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu's Zen roots. While Yagyu Muneyoshi himself was a Buddhist (he adopted the name of Sekishusai), the influence varied between the two branches (Edo and Owari). The Owari Yagyu, which is what most people who practice Yagyu you're likely to meet are, was founded by Muneyoshi's grandson Toshikatsu (who he also named as successor to the Ryu), who went to serve the Tokugawa at Owari (hence the name of the branch). Muneyoshi's son Munenori (who was the successor to the House of Yagyu), on the other hand, went with the Tokugawa to Edo. As per his duties as sword instructor to the Tokugawa, he developed the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu along his own lines giving rise to the Edo Branch.
Munenori also had the opportunity to befriend the Zen priest Takuan, who profoundly influenced him and his son Jubei. Thus, the Zen influence of the Edo Branch and consequently Yamato was a little more profound than on the Owari, since Toshikatsu didn't study under Takuan as his uncle had.
Are there any Owari Yagyu here that can elaborate on this. I study the Yamato Branch so I know woefully little of how the Owari do things."

If I'm not mistaken the branch of YSR that Mr. Skoss studies is Owari, hopefully he can elaborate on any information I have on that branch.

joe yang
25th September 2001, 05:19
FYI, the Yagu school of martial arts had a seminal influence on Kabuki, since discredited as too vulgar, but seminal in popularizing the form.

Jimmy Francoeur
28th September 2001, 15:11
Greetings to All!

Mr. DeMoch,

I have a question about the Yagyu Shinkage ryu.


"...the influence varied between the two branches (Edo and Owari)".

Could You please elaborate a little more about
the split of these two branch?

"The Owari Yagyu, which is what most people who practice Yagyu you're likely to meet are, was founded by Muneyoshi's grandson Toshikatsu
(who he also named as successor to the Ryu), who went to serve the Tokugawa at Owari (hence the
name of the branch). Muneyoshi's son Munenori
(who was the successor to the House of Yagyu)..."

What is the difference between been the successor of a ryu and been the successor of the house
(of Yagyu)? :confused:

Does the branch of Edo is still called Yagyu Shinkage ryu?

Thank You very much! Have a great day
:)
Jimmy

Chris deMonch
28th September 2001, 20:37
1. Could You please elaborate a little more about
the split of these two branch?

In the book "Lives of Master Swordsman," which is where I got most of my info, it says that there existed some bad blood between the Owari and Edo Yagyu. I don't know anything about that. The only difference I know of, since I've never met anyone who trains in the Owari branch and so can't compare difference in technique is the Zen onfluence. Munenori's relationship with Takuan profoundly influenced him and his outlook on swordsmanship. I'd gotten into a discussion over on Sword Forum a month or two ago and someone contacted a friend of theirs who studies Owari who said something along the lines that the Owari YSR uses Buddhist terminolgy, but deeper rooted things like sanctity of life and what not didn't really ebb off. Munenori believed that swordsmanship wasn't for killing people, but for developing a person's character. If you go to the JSA forum over at Sword Forum and look for a post I started called "How Many RYu We Got Up In Here," about halfway down you'll find the conversation I had. That might help.

2. What is the difference between been the successor of a ryu and been the successor of the house

It got kinda tricky with the Yagyu. Muneyoshi's eldest son, Yoshikatsu (I'm pretty sure that was his name, I get notoriously bad at remembering Japanese names sometimes) was an extremely competent swordsman who was initiated into the full secrets of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. However, he got crippled in battle which left him incapable of fulfilling the role of Lord Yagyu and head of the family school of fencing. So Muneyoshi passed Yoshikatsu over in favor of his fifth son, Munenori and fully trained him in the Yagyu Shinkage School (two of the other sons became priests, I forget what happened to the other one).
Munenori was with Muneyoshi when they gave the demonstration of their style to Tokugawa Ieyasu, and Muneyoshi sent Munenori with the future Shogun to serve as the fencing instructor in his stead. Meanwhile Yoshikatsu(?)'s son Toshikatsu was also initiated into the Yagyu school and Muneyoshi conferred the school's scrolls upon him, pretty much naming him official successor to the style. Toshikatsu thereafter went to go serve the Tokugawa at Owari. However, upon Muneyoshi's death, Munenori (as per the premogeniture system) still outranked his nephew in line of succession and he became Lord Yagyu. While in Edo serving the Tokugawa, he elaborated and further developed the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu giving birth to the Edo Branch.

3. Does the branch of Edo is still called Yagyu Shinkage ryu?

Here's where I get a little fuzzy. The branch of Yagyu I study is called Yamato Ha, and we apparently trace our origins back to Munenori's son, Mitsuyoshi. Every time I see my instructor I usually get all wrapped up in what we're doing and I forget to ask him about this. Chances are I won't know for sure until I can go to Japan and meet Sono Soke. But as far as I can tell, we Yamato Kai Yagyu are what's left of the Edo Branch. And yeah, we still call ourselves Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

There you go.

Abayo

Chris deMonch
2nd October 2001, 00:31
I screwed up the names a bit. Muneyoshi's first son's name was Yoshikatsu, but his son's (the founder of the Owari Yagyu) name was Yagyu Hyogonosuke Toshiyoshi, not Toshikatsu. That's what I get for not memorizing my notes.