Seitei differences.

[Erik Hallstensson]

Greetings all!


It would be nice to know the exact differences between Seitiei Jo and SMR Jo. As far as I know Seitei Jo consists of the tandoku dosa and a selection of SMR katas. These katas are learned in a different order than in the SMR. Am I right in this? Are there specific Seitei kata? Are the katas done differently, and if so, what are the differences?

Humbly,


Erik.

[pboylan]

Hi Erik,

There are 12 Seitei Jo kata. The biggest difference from the koryu for me is that all the footwork has been kendofied. The feet are supposed to move in parallel like in Kendo, and the kata are supposed to move straight forward and back. Shinto Muso Ryu has some very circuluar footwork, and many of the small details are different. Also, in SMR, the kata called Hissage is done with Uchitachi using a kodachi and in the seitei it's done with a tachi.

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Fine Martial Arts Books, Videos, Clothing and Equipment
http://www.budogu.com

[john mark]

Mr. Hallstensson,

There are several E-Budo threads that touch on this point. Here's a partial list.

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/search.php?action=showresults&searchid=37922&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

Hope this helps.

[Erik Hallstensson]

Thanks aplenty for the pointers! No need of reinventing kihon ;)


/Erik

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by pboylan
The feet are supposed to move in parallel like in Kendo, and the kata are supposed to move straight forward and back. Shinto Muso Ryu has some very circular footwork, and many of the small details are different.
Peter,

i wonder if you might offer a clarification about your comments. having only trained for about 8 months, i'm obviously still working on the seiteigata (not beyond "Kasumi", at that) and thus can't compare experiences with you, but from what i've been taught even movement within the "seiteis" doesn't always remain on the same axis, so to speak, throughout their execution.

by way of explanation, when jo and tachi square off they create a kind of principal axis. although the action begins and often ends on this imaginary line, in many intermediate stages one or both partners will come off that axis so that the movements of attack or defense are no longer moving along it. do you mean to say that, even thought the axis changes, the movement of each attack and defense still travels in a straight line?

i had myself convinced that i knew what i was trying to ask, at least for a while there.:D if you can piece together what i'm talking about, i'd be very happy to hear from you.

PS having reread Diane's comments in another thread (thanks John for the thread link!) regarding "Seitei vs Koryu", i'd be interested to hear more about why some instructors teach the Seiteigata as something slightly different than their koryu versions while others just teach koryu forms as the "Seiteigata". my teacher is a member of the "Seiteigata are different than the koryu no kata" camp.

TIA for your responses, everyone.

[Meik Skoss]

Seiteigata *are* different from Shinto Muso-ryu because they are *supposed* to be. That the waza in the Nihon Jodo Kata (the set of techniques formerly known as ZenKenRen Jodo Seiteigata) are all derived from Shinto Muso-ryu is more an accident of history. A number of very senior Shinto Muso-ryu exponents trained under and with Shimizu Takaji, head instructor for non-lethal combatives in the Tokyo Metropolitan Police (which has a *lot* of influence on kendo). Moreover, all of these men were very well-connected with ZenKenRen as kendo, iaido, and jodo exponents/instructors.

Sooooo, when the idea of creating a standardized set of waza for purposes of ancillary training for kendo and iaido people, guess which ryu got the nod as the technical base? The Nihon Kendo Kata and Nihon Iaido Kata were developed by men from different schools, so there's evidence of the different "flavors" of different ryu in the techniques in those sets. Same goes for the ZenNichi Naginata Kata (although that's primarily based on Tendo-ryu).

In the case of the Nihon Jodo Kata, though, the techniques come from Muso-ryu, mainly from the first two series (Omote, Chudan), with some other stuff thrown in. The waza are deliberately done in a slightly different manner, to avoid technical dissonance for people who are, after all, only doing jodo as "extra" training. The people who train in Muso-ryu as a primary art, it is felt, can filter out the slight differences and do both "styles" without difficulty.

I personally think it's unnecessary to give away "the good stuff" to people who are not personal students of one of the men who are responsible for the different lines of the art. Likewise, in iaido, there's a very *big* difference between doing Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu or Muso Shinden-ryu with a teacher who merely has dan-i/shogo (grades or teacher's certification awarded by either ZenKenRen or ZenIRen) and one who has been awarded a menkyo by one of the few people who still use the older system. There is truly a big difference in the vitality of their technique. Or so it seems to me.

Hope this helps.