uki and tsuri

[Graham Wild]

Hello once again, I told you I be back with more questions. I am having some problems with my uki goshi, (mostly because I have been reading too much judo stuff :) ). One problem is the difference between tsuri and uki goshi, what is it, how is 'floating' uke up different from 'lifting' uke up? I have to demonstrate it in my next grading and have been trying to get more information about it but it's usually vague as it seams to be a simple technique on paper. The other problem is I seam to be doing tsuri goshi from the description I have read and that is why I wanted to know the difference between them. In answering this remember I do not study Judo I study Yoseikan Aikido so please no stating rules like where you can and can not grab as it simply does not apply.
Any info would be great.

Tsurigoshi
Virtually as in ogoshi, tori drives his right arm under uke's left arm and grips uke's belt at the back. Turning in at the same time to place his hips across uke's front, tori lifts uke on to his hip with a strong pull with the right arm. He completes the throw by wheeling uke over his lower back.

Ukigoshi
Tori steps in to uke with his right foot and grips uke round the waist by driving his right arm between uke's left arm and trunk. He should not turn too deeply or bend his knees more than a little. Tori must lock uke on to his own right hip. Then with a powerful action, tori floats uke on to his right hip and wheels him over, gripping uke, power fully with his right arm, which should extend round uke's waist as far as possible.

These are from The Judo Manual by Tony Reay and Geoffrey Hobbs, and they do not suggest a difference to me.

[rsamurai2]

tsuri goshi is just like ogoshi only you are useing uke's belt to lift him up.

uki goshi is a half turn by tori opposed to a full turn by tori as in ogoshi. the way i do uki gosh is to slam my right hip (which make my entry sideways ) into uke as i pull his arm with my left hand and use my right hand around his back and under his arm to bring him over. i hope you can visulize this in your head the way i am in my head.

[dakotajudo]

There are actually two recognized forms of tsurigoshi. For ko-tsuri-goshi you reach underneath uke's armpit, grab the belt or the gi near the small of the back and lift uke onto your lower back. O-tsuri-goshi you reach around the arm or over the shoulder to get the same grip. In either case you turn 180 degrees and pull uke over your lower back.

Uki goshi uses a much more upright posture. I like to use my hand to 'clamp' uke to the side of my hip, then twist to throw uke around my hip.

Think of tsuri as over the hip, uki as around the hip.

The Judo Manual isn't one of the better books for showing the different throws - I'd recommend "Kodokan Judo" from Kodansha for a general judo reference (even though it can be a little confusing also). Another good reference is "Decisive Judo" by Des Marwood (Ippon books). This has some of the clearest illustrations of throws that I've seen.

[MarkF]

OK, to confuse you even more, let's see what "kodokan Judo" has to say:

Uki-goshi: "After breaking the opponent's balance to his right, front corner, you load him on your hip and throw him by twisting to the left. Wrap your arm around his body as far as possible. The throw differs from o-goshi in that you do not raise your hips or bend forward."

Tsuri-goshi: After breaking your opponent's balance to the front, you grab his belt [or on a low area of the dogi] and throw him foward by twisting.

Practically the same, and in full speed randori the difference would nearly be impossible to see.

The only difference I can tell buy doing them, is the tsurigoshi, especially o-tsurigoshi, you do bend the knees as his balance is broken, and load him with a lift, such as o-goshi.

Uki-goshi, there is no bending, your uke is pulled in tight with no lowering, bending of the knees. Very little of your hip needs to be extended beyond what the twisting manner allows, as the other descriptions have described.

You can reach over for the obi, although it isn't normally grabbed, but I wouldn't say it is wrong to do so.

Mark

[Brian Griffin]

My own experience is sadly limited, but perhaps my observations might be of some small assistance.

Otsurigoshi and kotsurigoshi are the same throw, the only difference being whether tori passes his arm over or under that of uke -- hence the Gokyo refers to them jointly as tsurigoshi.

As the name implies, the tsuri action is the central principle defining the throw. This is effected by gripping the belt & exerting a strong traction. This is not a bicep-powered muscular pull, but rather a force generated by strongly turning the head & shoulders to the left (for a right-hand belt grip) while curving the body forward. This force is transmitted to uke's center via the tension in tori's right arm. To accomplish this, tori pivots his hips to face the same direction as uke, and inserts them deeply, the contact point being pretty much the center-rear of tori's hips.
Foot position can vary quite a bit. Common positions are:
(a) feet level, parallel to uke, or
(b) left foot forward, right foot inserted deep between uke's feet.

Ukigoshi is rather different.
Tori makes tight upper-body contact, with his chest perpendicular to uke, forming a "T"-position (right nipple to right nipple/the point of his right hip a little to the right of uke's belt-knot).
Unlike tsurigoshi, he need not grab the belt at all, but must hug uke firmly to him with an upward-scooping feeling. Tori throws by twisting strongly to the left around his vertical axis, without bending forward.
Uke "floats" around the point of tori's right hip.

So, the main differences (as I understand them) are:

Hip position
ogoshi & tsurigoshi -- full-pivot, hips facing same direction as uke
ukigoshi -- "T"-position
Hip action
ogoshi -- hips lift from underneath
ukigoshi & tsurigoshi -- twist without lifting
Body action
ogoshi & tsurigoshi -- upper-body bends forward
ukigoshi -- no forward bend
Hand action
tsurigoshi -- hand grips belt (or dogi)
ukigoshi & ogoshi -- no need to grip belt

[Graham Wild]

Okay, I am quiet surprised that the only difference between ogoshi and tsuri goshi is grabbing the belt (interesting to note that tsuri goshi is not part of our syllabus but you can grab uke's belt in ogoshi if you want), maybe I read that wrong. Okay I am seeing some definite differences now thinking about it, but if I don't bend or lean how the @#$% do I throw? How do I make uke float? With an "upward scooping FEELING", no that doesn't help me to much, a little more of the mechanics involved would be great?

That's an interesting idea, some of you may or may not have heard of a book called Karate Kinematics and Dynamics which discusses the physics and biomechanics of karate, well I was wondering if there has been a judo book like this written?

[Charlie Kondek]

I was taught that uki goshi is the "icepick" throw. I believe the analogy was Kano's.

To get uke to "float," best to visualize that you have an ice pick on your right hip, and that as you come in for the throw, you are "stabbing" uke with this invisible ice pick, in and up. Try it on a willing uke; he'll pop right up and you'll hear all the breath escape him. Then, when he's in the air, turn into your body, whipping him over on his back, and let him fall on shoulders for ippon.

Look at the images at the link below. In the second image, the tori is stabbing upward with the "icepick" on his hip.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/ukigosh.gif

Here's an animated GIF that sort of helps show it, too.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukigoshi.htm

Does this help?

[BrianV]

Alright fellas,
As if this thread isn't confusing enough, here are my thoughts. Do what you will with them. This is the way I was taught and there doesn't seem to be a problem with the differences.
For Tsuri, use the arm to grab the obi and perform an assisted O-goshi.

For the Uki-Goshi, you don't enter as deeply with the hips, instead you are perpendicular to your Uke's direction.
i.e. if his hips are facing north, then yours will be facing east.
1. You grip the Obi with the right hand around the back of the Uke,
2. Drop your right hip, pull Uke toward you with the right hand.
3. Lift Uke with your hip (drive comes fromthe extending of the legs as you straighten them).
4. You drop uke into a side breakfall either to you front or the same side you picked him up on.

Clear as mud, huh?! :confused:

Anyhow, them's my 2 bits, so thar!

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by Graham Wild
Okay, I am quiet surprised that the only difference between ogoshi and tsuri goshi is grabbing the belt...maybe I read that wrong.Please accept my apologies. I thought you were asking about the distinction between ukigoshi & tsurigoshi, so I didn't go into detail about ogoshi.
Since I presumed you were already familiar with the mechanics of ogoshi, I thought my description of the action of the right arm in tsurigoshi would clearly distinguish it from the [forward-push-from-behind] encountered in classical ogoshi. My mistake.
I did, however, mention that the hips are also used rather differently in ogoshi & tsurigoshi, so... No, "grabbing the belt" is not the only difference.
(interesting to note that tsuri goshi is not part of our syllabus but you can grab uke's belt in ogoshi if you want)You are perfectly free to grip the belt in ogoshi if you wish, but since the right hand should be pushing uke's torso forward from behind, such a grip contributes little to the throwing action. Both ukigoshi & ogoshi can be performed quite successfully while nude. Tsurigoshi cannot, since it relies on using the right arm as a sort of tow-strap with a hook on the end to pull uke's center up-and-forward. Since tori is pulling from in front of uke, he must grab onto something, usually the belt.
Because the arms & hips are employed differently, uke's trajectory is also different:
ogoshi results in a forward circular arc, in the vertical plane
tsurigoshi creates a large right-handed spiral, since the forward rotation around a fulcrum is compounded by the leftward twist of tori's shoulders.
if I don't bend or lean how the @#$% do I throw?
By turning at the waist, around your vertical axis (for ukigoshi).
How do I make uke float? With an "upward scooping FEELING", no that doesn't help me to much, a little more of the mechanics involved would be great?Sorry I wasn't more helpful. I'll try not to waste your time any more.
Have you considered getting some actual instruction? It can make things sooo much clearer.

[Graham Wild]

Now the exact problem I am having is that with only a little lifting, and rotating the hips around a vertical axis my uke can simply resist with his front right foot (throwing over/around my right hip). He isn't lifted enough to overcome that foot, which is why I grab and lift his belt, using my upper body to lift as well. This is why I was confused because it seamed after reading a number of judo texts that I was performing more of a tsuri goshi and hence asked you the people who know more about koshi waza than me, and like I said we don't do tsuri goshi so it's not like I can ask my Aikido sensei to explain the difference between uki goshi and a technique he doesn't know. Like was stated above when either of techniques are done at speed there does not appears to be much difference so my sensei says that my technique is okay, and grabbing the belt is fine.
My uke definitely doesn't get as much 'air' as is show in the picture and animation above maybe I should be bending my legs more, until I get enough lift? I will also keep the ice pick thing in mind, sounds very interesting.

PS Brian (Griffin), I will ask my sensei tomorrow night in class about my uki goshi, so don't worry I get "actual instruction". The question arose when I was doing some personal practice at home and I looked in my judo book to see how judoka do uki goshi and then I realised after reading them (the descriptions for uki, o, and tsuri) that I might be doing something wrong. I then decided to consult ebudo with the thought that people with more experience then me and a greater understanding of the waza could help. It's probably just be me, but when someone tells me to lift with a 'feeling' of scooping up, it doesn't help me that much, but you did a good job of stating the difference between uki and tsuri goshi. I simply asked for a little more information and you came out with what to me seemed like 'unpleasant' comments.

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by Graham Wild
like I said we don't do tsuri goshi so it's not like I can ask my Aikido sensei to explain the difference between uki goshi and a technique he doesn't know.You're being tested on a technique that isn't part of your syllabus, and that your teacher doesn't know?
I simply asked for a little more information and you came out with what to me seemed like 'unpleasant' comments. That can be irritating... Do you mean comments like these?
Originally posted by Graham Wild if I don't bend or lean how the @#$% do I throw? How do I make uke float? With an "upward scooping FEELING", no that doesn't help me to much

[Graham Wild]

I apologise I did not mean for you to take my comment the way you did (I can see how you could read it sarcastically), maybe I should have put them in 2 different paragraphs. They are 2 separate questions the first asking how do I throw uke, and two how do I float him up (which is what I am having problems with), with a comment suggesting I need a little more information regarding previous attempts at explaining the 'floating'. Also the post was not directed at you personally it was to everyone and the @#$% was because of my stupidity in not understanding a throw others seem to be able to explain in a small number of words.

Also uki goshi is what is in my next grading and tsuri goshi is not in our syllabus. The reason I know what tsuri goshi is, is because I read about it.

So do I float uke up with a lift like tsuri goshi (which is what I am doing now) or is it done with the hip and if so how, because I am not getting a lot of lift using my hip?

So if you would like to help some more it will be appreciated.

Note to self: Others can't read my mind :)

[efb8th]

Hi, Graham.

My sensei explained the uki goshi hip action to me this way: "Do Hane Goshi, but don't lift your foot." It worked for me!

Good Luck,

[Graham Wild]

I was thinking that just last night while I looked through my books. I will try all the suggestions tonight in class.
Thanks everyone for the help and suggestions.

[MarkF]

Hi, Ed,
Well, yeah, if you learned hane goshi first. But then, I always did like hane goshi, perhaps because I learned uki goshi before that.

Mark

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by Graham Wild
Now the exact problem I am having is that with only a little lifting, and rotating the hips around a vertical axis my uke can simply resist with his front right foot (throwing over/around my right hip).


This is the common counter to uki goshi, and, if my understanding of history is correct, the reason harai goshi was developed.

You overcome this somewhat by making sure your hip is in tight contact with uke's right leg (at the hip socket). This makes it more difficult for uke to simple swing around your hip.

You should also be pulling and lifting uke's right are with hikite; this opens uke's body and makes it easier to rotate his body around your vertical axis.

[Graham Wild]

I just had to post one last time to let you know how it went. It was a success. I have to thank all of you for you insight and advice. I can definitely fell myself wanting to do hane goshi but I resisted and did a number of good clean throws, and a nice sharp pull on his right arm got him turning good.
Just one last thing what is the reason/tactics for using harai goshi? It has been a while since doing it in class but I think we use it from a failed ogoshi, some think like if you raise your hips and run out of extension and uke is still touching the mat, sweep the leg, changing it to harai goshi. Any comments would be great.
Just one more time, thanks a lot.

:toast: