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Paul Steadman
24th September 2001, 15:51
Hi All,

If judo was developed by Kano Jigoro as a "do," discipline to polish the character, obtain and maintain health & wellness and all the other good stuff, and was not designed for fighting etc. Then how can anyone claim that judo makes an excellent self defence system?

Most "garden variety," judoka train or are taught with competition in mind, apply most techniques from the kumi-kata position, never try their waza against hook punches, grabs or sticks/knives etc, and are not usually allowed to use punches, strikes, kicks and wrist or elbow locks. Also a lot of judo's nage waza involves turning or pivoting (thus exposing your back) to face away from the opponent!

The fact that judo was not designed to be utilised as a fighting art is further demonstrated by the fact that certain "goshin-ho/goshin-jutsu," kata had to be later formulated to deal with actual attacks by an aggressor.

So can judo be used for self defence, if yes, than how?

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Charlie Kondek
24th September 2001, 17:21
Well, Paul, in the first place, I think you have a misunderstanding about the difference between a "do " and a "jutsu." In short, there really is none. We westerners play it up, but the Japanese see little if any difference. That said, it should be noted that judo is a character builder, yes, but it also is a self-defense art.

There's punching and kicking in judo, too. You just haven't seen it yet, apparently?

Judoka train for both competition and the street, has been my experience. And you have to do it that way to keep competition safe. If you went into competition - a useful tool for testing your abilities, limits - then you can't go into it with the same mindset as comat; you'll hurt or get hurt. You have to be a sportsman. There's just no other way. Whenever you are going to "spar," you have to set limits.

As for it being used in self defense, ("How?") well, go pick a fight with a judoka and find out. I think the Gracies have answered this pretty well, and before you start expounding on the difference between Gracie jujitsu and judo, think again. They're not that enormous. The difference is in the emphasis.

Don Cunningham
24th September 2001, 17:37
Based on Jigoro Kano's writings and speeches, I think it's obvious that he intended judo to be effective for self-defense in addition to building moral character and good health.

I think judo can be an effective self-defense system. Then again, so can a brick if applied to the top of an attacker's head. ;)

Kit LeBlanc
24th September 2001, 17:47
Paul,

Go here. Read and learn.....

http://judoinfo.com/sport.htm

Kit

"[Judo] is the study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself."

Kano Jigoro 1889

Paul Steadman
24th September 2001, 18:33
Hi Kit & Don,

I love your sense of humour Don and the site you posted Kit was pretty good.

So going off the site you posted, one could say that soldiers can go and play paint-ball/pellet/skirmish etc and come out with the skills to go into combat against an enemy intent on doing them harm with real bullets? I don't think so! Thus olympic fencing would prepare a person for combat with a saber! No way, wrong training methadology. The fencer trains for competition with a training weapon (a foil) to face another fencer who trains for comp with another lightweight (modified) weapon, within limited, safe rule bound competition. An Olympic target-pistol shooter or archer might be a gold medal winner at marksmenship and are well equipped to kill with their martial derived sports/competition training weapons. They would most certainly fail miserably when put into a situation where they had to defend themselves against a foe who is shooting back, won't stand still and won't act in a sportsmanship-like manner and follow the rules. The competition based modified/enhanced weapon they utilise is totally out of proportion to a martial long-bow or a modern security, police or military pistol as is their training methadology. It's the same with Judo!

You can't train 2 to 3 times a week in a safe, clean, controlled dojo in competition based techniques, within the confines of rules and artificial limitations, against some-one grabbing you in the kumi-kata position and "playing," judo and expect to be able to face an attacker outside the dojo coming at you swearing, spitting, slashing etc and generally not playing by the rules.

There are many judoka (and other gendai budoka) who can handle themselves in a real fight, I don't doubt that for a moment. But does modern sports judo really prepare a raw student for the realities of an attack by a person intent on harming, raping, robbing or killing? If it does, at what stage does judo address this, at 1st Dan or 5th Dan.

I'm sorry but I don't believe sports competition based training prepares one for the realities of self defence. How many times do you hear about sports martial artists from karate-do, taekwondo, judo etc being stabbed or beaten up in parks or on their way their cars in the car park...too many for my liking.

Cheers,

Paul Steadman

Kit LeBlanc
24th September 2001, 20:06
Originally posted by Paul Steadman
Hi Kit & Don,

So going off the site you posted, one could say that soldiers can go and play paint-ball/pellet/skirmish etc and come out with the skills to go into combat against an enemy intent on doing them harm with real bullets? I don't think so!

You can't train 2 to 3 times a week in a safe, clean, controlled dojo in competition based techniques, within the confines of rules and artificial limitations, against some-one grabbing you in the kumi-kata position and "playing," judo and expect to be able to face an attacker outside the dojo coming at you swearing, spitting, slashing etc and generally not playing by the rules.

There are many judoka (and other gendai budoka) who can handle themselves in a real fight, I don't doubt that for a moment. But does modern sports judo really prepare a raw student for the realities of an attack by a person intent on harming, raping, robbing or killing? If it does, at what stage does judo address this, at 1st Dan or 5th Dan.

I'm sorry but I don't believe sports competition based training prepares one for the realities of self defence. How many times do you hear about sports martial artists from karate-do, taekwondo, judo etc being stabbed or beaten up in parks or on their way their cars in the car park...too many for my liking.



Paul,

Uhhhh, where do you think Simmunitions F/X training came from? Right, PAINTBALL. What does Surefire use in some of their force on force training? Right, PAINTBALL. Seems to me you are looking at it far too simplistically.

In and of itself, is Sim F/X or Surefire paintball training combat? No. Does it help prepare you for combat? Yes. Why? They call it "Force on Force."

If you also look at judo simplistically, it doesn't, in and of itself, prepare a raw student for the realities of an attack by a person intent on harming, raping, robbing or killing. Do you really think classical kata training does? I only ask this because if I remember correctly I think you are a koryu practitioner...?

I think in the main judo does a much better job than the vast majority of arts that do not engage in full contact randori. Why? Contact. Resistive opponents. Full speed application under pressure of those skills which are MOST important in a real world altercation, armed or unarmed.

And no those skills are not the techniques, as in kata. Here is where most people without a lot of real world fighting experience make simplistic assumptions, to which the link I posted alludes. I made many of the same assumptions before working in security, law enforcement, and SWAT and learning what worked better in the real world, armed and armored, and against people who weren't all that impressed with the principles contained in the kata of classical warrior arts.

You mention "other gendai budoka." Actually no matter how you slice it, koryu practitioners ARE gendai budoka, unless they can go back in time.

But let's talk about the koryu bugeisha who in the main practice 1 or 2 times a week in safe, clean, controlled dojo (or for added realism outdoor training in safe, clean, controlled fields) and do archaic, ritualized forms, rarely make contact, and practice weapons and grappling methods against persons not truly resisting in formalized kata situations. They mime atemi to kyusho and convince themselves they are fight stoppers. They pretend to jab their fingers into Uke's eyes and assume "that just HAS to be effective, NO ONE can resist getting poked in the eye!" Do you really thing that is "real combat training?"

Maybe your position is based on the randori? The adjustment of techniques so that they can be practiced full contact? Well let's take some classical examples. Doesn't Maniwa Nen-ryu uses padded bogu and weapons to train force on force? Who invented the fukuro shinai? Why? Owari-kan ryu engages in shiai with bogu and padded weapons, according to Hunter Armstrong BEFORE they do kata. From what I have heard Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Fusen-ryu engage in randori, in the latter case I hear quite a bit.

Certainly I do not mean to say these arts practice competition style, but all of them made adjustments to their technique in order to practice free fighting safely. Of course they knew free fighting is not combat, but I think they realized that training in such a manner produces BETTER fighters than simply training in kata. Kata bujutsu practitioners no longer have the opportunity to go out and kill people with swords, sticks, knives or bare hands and thus only practice a shadow of their former field proven fighting arts. What they do now is mime the really dangerous stuff and somehow convince themselves it is more effective that training in actually picking up a resisting 200 lb man and slamming him into the ground.

These "force on force traditions" saw the need to add the speed, force, aggression, fear and pain of actual contact and changed their arts to preserve the combative elements in kata (which they still cannot practice realistically, frankly....), but at the same time to develop the attributes which provide a far greater chance of survival when the chips are down. This is far more realistic than practicing setting up a wristlock by an atemi which does not even hit the Uke and then letting him "flow" with the lock to "avoid injury."

Maybe your argument is based on "unrealistic" competition rules? I'll give you a little leeway there, some competition adaptations are not the best option for real world street fighting. Of course neither are some of the koryu techniques I have seen, which are wishful thinking at best, if their goal is to control, dominate and defeat and actively aggressive enemy.

But, when actually fighting and not doing kata, can't koryu people adjust to make their atemi actually hit the other guy? Then is it so hard to concieve that maybe the judoka will realize he is not competing, but actually fighting, and wil adjust what he does in the ring for the street? I submit that the answer is yes in both cases. But I would argue that based on the nature of his training, the judoka (okay, anyone with a lot of hard randori training, judo OR koryu) will have developed much more useful attributes from that very training.

Picture a judoka, trained in shiai and competition. He has spent his formative years learning throws, falls, and how to throw someone that does not want to be thrown and is doing his damndest to throw him. All this has been done full contact.

He also knows that to change say osoto-gari from shiai to real fighting he simply adjusts a hand from the collar to the throat, or chin, and slams the bad guys head into the ground. He knows that certain ashi-waza actually become kicks to the legs and knees and ankles, collar grabs often become short punches or palm strikes to the sides of the head, etc. even in "controlled" matches, because people are all jacked up from full contact wrestling, so he was seen and felt this stuff before. Since he has practiced against men who have resisted his every move, he has much better timing and positioning to adapt his techniques when one does not seem to be working, for whatever reason.

He has also been so mentally and physically exhausted that he can barely move but has fought on. He has been injured a number of times but has learned to fight through those injuries because that is simply what you do in judo.

Kit

[Edited for readability and little less attitude...:)]

Don Cunningham
24th September 2001, 20:40
This ground has been covered so many times before. Yes, sportive aspects such as rules do not reflect reality of combat. However, competition, even that which has been regulated to prevent injury, does prepare the participants for facing real situations better than no competition at all.

Judo has rules which would not apply in a street fight or attack. There is no doubt or argument here. Yet, having competed against someone who is trying their best to throw me, does give me an advantage over those who have only practiced kata. They may know the form, but they have never tried it against a non-cooperative opponent. Then those who have trained solely in kata have an advantage over those who have never trained at all. At least they know the forms and basic techniques. It's the same with kendo versus kenjutsu.

Maybe Olympic fencing doesn't prepare one for a saber fight, but then what would? The same goes for self-defense systems. Are those without any shiai supposedly better than those with shiai just because the latter are restricted to certain actions in their contests? I think an Olympic fencer would have a better chance in a saber fight that someone who never handled an epee.

Then, what are the chances of such a confrontation in the first place? How many people face the constant, daily fear of attack by a person intent on harming, raping, robbing, or killing? And just how many sports martial artists from karate-do, taekwondo, judo, etc., have you heard of being stabbed or beaten up in parks or on their way to their cars in the car park?

If your society is that dangerous, then why the heck bother with training for hand-to-hand combat? It's much easier and far more efficient to carry a revolver. Even the members of our military, training for combat, don't bother with much of the hand-to-hand stuff. They prefer superior firepower with automatic weapons to that kind of stuff.

Scanderson
25th September 2001, 00:50
Sport Judo is fairly brutal if you ask me! I just love these posts questioning the efficacy of Judo as a combative art. When I started Judo I was shocked - all these nice folks, then you get on the mat and engage in radori and BOOM! Then you go to the local competitions and the ambulance arrives every 15 minutes to haul away the wounded (who show up at the next tournament).

What kind of folks take Judo? All sorts - in my class, we had accountants, teachers, CIA, Special Forces/Navy seal, ex-Pro football player, etc. The whole spectrum. One thing I noticed - all the advanced judoka were in excellent shape, had great stamina, balance and coordination, seemed inured to pain to some extent and displayed good tactics and thinking. Thank god for the rules of sport judo - it prevented me from getting killed.

How did I benefit? My health and confidence improved immensely, as did my stamina and ability to endure pain. To survive shiai, I had to work out. I lost more matches than I won, got injured several times - but I feel like a better person for it for some strange reason. That is the weird thing about judo - you "take a lickin' and keep on tickin":-)

Stephen C. Anderson

Paul Steadman
25th September 2001, 01:05
Thanks guys,

I appreciate your aguements and have had similar beliefs in the past. There was a famous Olympic gold medalist fencer ( a master of the foil, epee & saber), I can't remember his name, who challenged and was defeated (first blood, I believe) by a little, glasses wearing newsagent who trained in reality based, combat swordsmanship. Anyway the Olympic fencer conceded that competition fencing does not prepare one for a real fight. The story was linked at koryu.com but I havn't been able to find it. And yes of course you probably wouldn't be accosted by a saber weilding highwayman on your way to work!

I do believe that kata can prepare one for self defence or combat, depending on how one is taught the kata and how one trains it ie: realistically, with energy and vigour utilising full power with control. Not just unconsciesly going through the moves in an unrealistic. Of course one should then train in the oyo-waza, henka-waza and apply the techniques/concepts against someone coming at them hell-bent-for-leather ie: reality based randori if you will.

Modern armies and police TRG's/SRG's utilise kata training eg: 'far and close ambush drills,' and 'contact, fire and movement drills,' etc. These drills among others are "drilled," until they are second nature and done without thinking when a patrol is ambushed. And they work. Of course the army doesn't issue paint-ball guns, teach some basic point-and-shoot techniques and then say now go and play/randori/kumite and by the way you are only allowed to do this and this, you can't do that, and you have to have your right foot forward when you shoot and shout (kiai) out the name of your target or we won't score you. Striking with the butt of the rifle is banned and your not allowed to thrust with your bayonet until your a major.

The Japanese Self Defence Force and police servive utilise judo and kendo as phys-ed training to engender fitness, health-&-wellness and esprit-de-corps/comeraderie etc, not as combat arts to prepare troops/officers for confrontation. This is the same for western armies where boxing and fencing may be utilised among other sports. The JSDF and police formulated specific systems for hand-to-hand combat and weapons training and where did they go to obtain a foundation for these systems, the koryu (and yes some judo & kendo experts were on these tech committees, but they were high ranking experts of koryu arts attached to the then kodokan and kendo groups).

But I do see your points, in the above posts. Thanks again.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Aaron Fields
25th September 2001, 01:21
As a guy who does both ju-Jutsu and juDO I can tell you a choke is a choke, and no matter who threw me ("sport guy or combat guy" whatever that means) it hurts bad to hit the hard ground.

not to mention "on the street" in my experience the guy with the biggest weapon wins most of the time.

So can judo be used as a "self-defense?" Why yes, but the best self defense is still Lewis San ryu-ha. A traditional koryu which involves running really fast.

and like Don said the brick works really well:smash:

joe yang
25th September 2001, 04:17
Gotta weigh in here. Having started out with judo in high school, fencing and Wu Shu in college, I settled on TKD only because of the exceptional quality of the instructor. Learning to handle the adrenaline rush from fencing helped me deal with combat. TKD gave me the confidence to enter a pitched fight, against odds, with confidence. In the end, it always comes down to Judo/Yudo get the job done.

Charlie Kondek
25th September 2001, 15:17
Yeah, I mean, it seems to me if you want to stay in shape and be prepared for combat the best way is to actively and consistently engage in sport. That doesn't mean there's no place for kata-type training, too, though. The two go hand in hand. Certainly, most ancient cultures understood this. I don't know much about Native American combative sport but I'm pretty sure they had limits, and I'm sure they, too, were sitting around having a similar conversation.

Ya ever read Richard Marcinko's "Rogue Warrior"? As a SEAL team leader he emphasized firearms and tactical training for his troops. He knew hand-to-hand could be an issue, though. His best method of preparing his guys for rough and tumble? Bar fights. No lie! He comes right out and says he sends his boys to a Marine Corps. or an Army bar to pick a brawl as a way of readying them for hand to hand.

njm
25th September 2001, 18:42
A lot of sensible comment in this thread, I only want to make a couple of extra points.

I was having a conversation with a friend who runs a security company and supplies doormen to pubs and clubs. He rated judo, boxing (western and Thai), and rugby, in that order, as the most useful preparation for real-life fighting situations. The training for all of these activities involves full-on physical conflict (with some rules to provide safety) with a fully-resisting opponent.

If you've only practiced with compliant training partners and done katas, you're in a new and unfamiliar situation if you get into a street fight. Not the time to be running through your repertoire of techniques to see if you can find one that works!

Nobody who knows what they are talking about would say that any one system will make you invincible, but as preparation for being in a real fight Judo is at least as good as any of the others and probably better than most!

Charlie Kondek
25th September 2001, 20:05
Yes. I think someone asked Geoff Thompson, the self-defense guru and author and former doorman (and survivor of, I dunno, hundreds of fights) what one should study if one only studies one martial art. He said boxing. Okay, the interviewer asked, what if one studied TWO martial arts? Thompson said boxing and judo.

I think Paul's major criticism, and it's a valid one, is that some judo clubs might train only for shiai. And this can develop bad habits - over-reliance on the gi, and turning your back to an opponent among them.

Hey, Neil, incidentally - why rugby??? I know next to nothing about the sport. Is it that bad?

Don Cunningham
25th September 2001, 20:25
So going off the site you posted, one could say that soldiers can go and play paint-ball/pellet/skirmish etc and come out with the skills to go into combat against an enemy intent on doing them harm with real bullets?
My combat training consisted of a couple of weeks walking around in the woods, armed with a M-16 and a couple clips of blanks. Half the time I didn't know or understand what we were doing and we didn't even have the common decency to fall down and play dead when shot by one another. Yet, this at least gave me some basic ideas about what to do when setting up an ambush, how to move in formation for an assault, how to regroup after being ambushed, etc.

By your terms, they should have trained us with live ammunition and let us kill one another to get the real effect in our training. Other than the expense of ammunition and the low passing rate for survivors, it might be more effective. I'm just glad we did get some training.

By the way, we did one live fire exercise, crawling on our backs under concertina wire while automatic fire was directed just about chest height. It was scary and did give me an idea of how noisy a battle can be. However, it didn't prepare me for the incredible fear in the pit of my stomach when facing a really pissed off person firing an automatic weapon with every intention of ending my life. Even realistic training may not always be enough.

njm
25th September 2001, 22:08
Hey, Neil, incidentally - why rugby??? I know next to nothing about the sport. Is it that bad?

Not generally - it's fairly hard and physical, so they are mostly fit and tough lads who can take a bit of a battering, but the main reason he likes rugby players as doormen is that their training is to tackle and restrain rather than to strike. That's often more appropriate for the type of incidents they deal with.

Barry Southam
26th September 2001, 00:53
Friends,

I'm 50 yrs. old and have been studying Judo since 1967....I have always studied and taught Judo as a martial art...So in my opinion using the principles and techniques of Kodokan Judo for selfdefense is quite simple...No I don't want to get into any arguement with those who only CHOOSE to study what is required for sport which is of course an individuals choice and many study the TOTAL JUDO and not just a fragment of it...

First,, I'd like to say that there are some very well conditioned and tough competitors who could really put a hurt on an attacker....
As we all know Judo includes: throwing, holding, choking,jointlocks( not just on the elbow), striking/blocking and Kata....

So with practice and guidance from an instructor you can put together your own selfdefense techniques based off the Judo curriculum...Many throws can be used effectively in selfdefense....

kata teach priciples and techniques and YOU apply them in the various scenarios that you deem necessary....

Friends, I don't think a mugging is done at a distance....Up close and personal is my definition and randori helps your body to react to the ever changing variables found in two people struggling....

Blocking punches and kicks, applyng locks, twisting wrists and other joints, choking, striking with hand and foot, controlling, THROWING, defense against weapons, as well as good Taisabaki is all in Judo.....

I have never had a problem teaching Judo as a traditional martial art.....In Judo we have a wide spectrum of response t an attack based on our skill and ability from Mild to Severe...

The techniques are there : we just have to put them all together which means thinking and practicing....


Thanks for listening....

Barry E. Southam

Paul Steadman
26th September 2001, 01:43
Hello All,

Thanks for your responses. It's good to see that there is still some "martial," combative judo out there.

Cheers,

Paul Steadman

MarkF
26th September 2001, 08:33
Dr. Karl Koiwai, MD, of the USJI described judo as "combative sport." (It is also described as such at http://ejmas.com in the Journal of Combative Sport).

As to Rugby, I would put American football up there as well, though much more structured.

Mark

CEB
26th September 2001, 15:30
Originally posted by njm


Not generally - it's fairly hard and physical, so they are mostly fit and tough lads who can take a bit of a battering, but the main reason he likes rugby players as doormen is that their training is to tackle and restrain rather than to strike. That's often more appropriate for the type of incidents they deal with.

His theory sounds in line with the Illinois Department of Corrections. Prison Guards I have trained with call it pile theory. Its hard do much if you have 800 pounds of man piled on top of you.

Ed Boyd

Graham Wild
26th September 2001, 17:11
Mark you have got to be kidding that's like putting a kendoka in with a kenjutsuka, there use to too much padding. :laugh:
Only joking, not seen much (US football) but told it is very tactical which is missing in some sports.

TommyK
27th September 2001, 01:19
Greetings,

In our school of Korean Karate and Self-Defense we are required to learn 7-10 basic Judo Throws and some 'ground-work'. Because of this exposure I can see how these techniques can easily be used in Hand to Hand fighting...However...

In the recent national tragedy, a small group of heroes on a hijacked plane rose up and caused the hijackers to lose control of the hijacked plane, at the cost of all those on aboard. HOWEVER, they saved countless lives by stopping the hijackers from using them and the plane as a live guided bomb on either a heavily populated area and / or a national monument (the WHite House).

One of these heroes was a Mr. Glint (? spelling may be off) who joined in combating the hijackers. This gentleman was reported to have been a national Judo player, so I see his and their actions against the hijackers as heroic and some proof that Judo can be effective in Hand to Hand fighting.

Just an old guy's thoughts!
Regards,
TommyK

MarkF
27th September 2001, 07:55
Graham,
Oh, so you have only seen tackle football with padding as in the pros and college. Take the stuff off and you've got your average pickup game in the park.:)

The strange thing about Rugby is that I learned how to play it in elementary school. I grew up in middle California (to the age of 11, anyway), and that was to be the school game. American football is a different animal, and have been confused in why it is called football while soccer has the appropriate name (football).
*****

Hey, Tommy,
That was Jeremy Glick. He was a former national collegiate judo champion and soccer player.

I posted a thread with an article about him and the others who got the better of them. You can find it here under "Moved: Heroes" as I immediately moved it to the Lounge titled "Heroes." You can read it from here or the lounge. There is also a post from the Kodokan in response to a letter to Kodokan Librarian/historian Murata-sensei. The letter was in response to Ed Burgess who wrote them about Jeremy.

Not to take from Ed's thunder, but he emailed me the same response so here it is:

----- Original Message -----
From: ?u ¹SÙ?}?'Ž'-¿.
To: Edward Burgess
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:48 AM
Subject: Big pleasure of a great information!


Dear Prof. Edward F. Burgess,

I thank you very much for your information of the late Mr. Jeremy Glick of blessed memory in the newpaper, who was a national collegiate judo champion. I just finished translation of the article into Japanese and could not stop tearing on my cheeks with doing it. I express my deep mourning for his death, and also offer my condolence to his families on his bereavement.
I am going to report of his judo career and bravery in the last moment of his life tomorrow in the executive meeting of Kodokan. Again here I would like to repeat thanks for your sending such an excellent information. See you again, sir.

Best cordially,

Naoki Murata
*****

There are a couple of posts on the Heroes thread, and I'm not sure of the thread where Ed posted this, but the Lounge is where you will find both.

It may have simply been the subject line of the email he received from them "Big Pleasure of a great information."

Thanks for adding to it!:idea:

Mark

TommyK
27th September 2001, 17:24
Hi Mark,

Thanks!!!!

To the memory of all heroes, especially the rescuers here in NYC!!! I knew 2 of the missing firemen (Paul Gill and Chris Santora), and while they did not study MA, they ran into and up, while everyday folks ran down and out. Heroes!!!

Regards,
TommyK

Barry Southam
28th September 2001, 02:25
Friends,

I really don't see the contraversy by some over the years in reference to Judo being adequate in a selfdefense situation and viewed mainly as a sport...
I think it should be viewed within the mind set of each individual....If I have always studied and applied Judo to selfdefense situation, then that works for me....If I think of Judo only as a sport( as a co-instructor did many years ago) then that is what it is and how I look at it....Personally I feel the martial art of Judo has been short changed over the years in the interest of making it more popular and spreading it far and wide...
Just look at the various Jujutsu,Karate, Aikido, police techniques,etc.,etc.,.that have included Judo techniques as part of their curriculum.....Such as : Danzanryu Jujutsu, Yoseikan Budo, SOSUISHIRYU JUJUTSU, Miyamaryu Jujutsu,etc.,etc.,...
I am told by a friend that in Okinawa, if you want to practice Judo just go to the local police station and you'll find a dojo....How about the Japanese police ? How many Japanese police officers are Judo people ? Maybe they have as part of their police training in addition to other martial arts the art of Judo as well( which might be part of their Taihojutsu..

Kodokan Judo has something for everyone!!

There is nothing wrong in studying Judo as both a sport and martial art...As long as the competitor knows to switch from fair play to anything goes on the street if needed and the added techniques available to them...


Thanks for reading...

Barry E. Southam

ken lester
29th September 2001, 15:35
Judo can be used (very) effectively. Watch any UFC, do you see the phenomenal success grapplers have had? Judo, Jiu-Jitsu (brazillian)- the transition is smooth because they differ only in the rules. While only a yellow belt in Judo I defeated a Tae Kwan Do black belt , who initiated an attack on me, with a simple choke hold called the rear naked choke. At the time (years ago) I was even shocked by how well it worked-far too simple. A year later a locally ranked kickboxer confronted a friend at a night club ( I hate nightclubs!) and I saw fit to try and mediate because , well, I try to avoid confrontatrions- nothing doing- he insisted on taking me. Well, after absorbing one knee to the thigh I used a throw called make komi. Worked well, and while the kickboxer attempted to recover from having used his rib cage as a crash pad (make komi is an inside throw in which the opponent is used to break your fall) I began with elbows to the face. Nasty, yes. But I didnt start it- I am a pacifist (naturlich)- Judo is a grappling art. In my opinion , the fact that judo does operate on time restraints makes for a superior athletic grappler. If a judoka can adapt his strategy to a longer confrontation, and integrate aspects not common to judo (like the occasional strike or knee) he will succeed. Look at the olympic sport of greco roman wrestling. Some of the best mixed martial arts champs come from this discipline. Put less faith in semantics and remember that much rests on the martial artist, and any style can be great or small- depending upon the practitioner.-KPL

Barry Southam
30th September 2001, 03:11
Ken,

Glad to know you feel Judo is an effective selfdefense art and gave examples....Striking isn't strange to the art of Judo nor is various jointlocks beyond just the elbow or wrist twists, or various blocking/parrying methods....Atemi Waza is part of Judo although some Judoka don't practice in this area or the application of the principles and techniques of Judo to selfdefense situations either unarmed or against weapons...
The fact of the matter is that the traditional Japanese martial art of Kodokan Judo is an effective method of selfdefense and provides responses from mild to severe....


Barry E. Southam

DavidMasaki
30th September 2001, 03:28
Yup, I agree. I think it's really only marketting that says BJJ is for fighting and Judo is a sport. What a lot of people don't realize is that the vast majority of BJJ Players are strictly sport jiu-jitsu competitors. Which means basically tournaments just like judo where you wear a gi and no strikes are allowed, but they don't stand you up after being on the ground, a few more legal moves, and a different point system. And yet, despite BJJ being a sport, everyone realizes the effectiveness of BJJ in a real fight. I train at Relson Gracie's school and most people primarily train with a gi. If they're going to enter a no-gi or NHB competition, then they'll change their training a couple months before the event. The sporting aspect is the very thing that makes judo and BJJ great for self-defense. The competition to be better than your opponent is something many "traditional" martial artists don't deal with in a realistic manner so they never know how good (or poor) they really are. In a real fight, if you're not better (or luckier) than your opponent, you lose. In general, when people tell me they know techniques too dangerous to use in a "mere sport" like judo, I don't give a rip because they won't be able to pull it off in real life anyway.

kusanku
1st October 2001, 08:15
Judo surely can be used as a self defense, a martial art.I think all Judoka know this, and many non-judo players do as well.

Basically, if you can get in close and get in position, you can do a judo technique on an attacker, especially one untrained in judo or similar grappling techniques, and they won't have a counter.

Even a simple footweep or a reaping trip like o soto gari can be effective.

Best part is, if attacker is some foolish person or a drunk or whatever, you can control them without even hurting them, most times.

So, judo is a humane system as well as potentially devastating.Plus, working as it does on theory of tai sabaki, unbalancing and using the opponent's own directional momentum against them, it offers excellent defensive possibilities for smaller and weaker persons.Remember I speak here of self defensive judo and not of contest judo.:-)

It worked very well for me in high school against the 'school bullies" whom I would invite to the wrestling mat.End of bullying behavior.Note: Hiza guruma works extremely well against a wrestler in a standing crouch,its like he's saying, please throw me with a Knee Wheel!:-)

Never had to use anything ewlse except tai sabaki against a standing rush and some shoulder lock followed by a one hand kote gaeshi to prone opponent, end again, of battle.

Note two: tai sabaki and kote gaeshi also can work on an upward knife stab for an evasion and disarm.That was later.

Judo works quite well.But it takes poractice and practice, to make it work, Fine technique, though.
Regards

Tuomas
11th October 2001, 13:43
This might be a silly point to people considering self-defence effectiveness, but ones own use of violence should be a factor, too.

This would not include highly violent areas such as New York, or
america in general ;) but at least here in Finland most fights you tend to get to are just stupid bar brawls with stupid drunken people. No use cracking their arms, ribs or legs or smashing their faces. They might die. It's a lot more useful if you can just push them over, sit on their chests and give 'em a nice chat. And a bit of ude-garame.

In Finland, at least, if you get into an ordinary brawl and start kicking people in the head, you get fined or arrested for use of too much violence.

tommysella
11th October 2001, 14:28
Hi Tuomas!

That's the same as it is in Sweden aswell...

Regards,
Tommy

Jari Virta
11th October 2001, 15:09
Originally posted by Paul Steadman
So can judo be used for self defence, if yes, than how?

A very highly respected martial arts researcher and master Donn Draeger once said (not an exact quote) that if he had to choose, he'd rather go to the dark alley with a judoka than a karateka by his side.

Kit LeBlanc
11th October 2001, 16:11
Robert Smith said the same thing in a recent Journal of Asian Martial arts article...given all the arts he's trained with, the stylist he'd rather have with him most in a rough and tumble is a judoka.

Here's a thought:

"[Judo] is the study of techniques with which you may kill of you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself."

Kano Jigoro, 1889, from Draeger and Otaki's Judo Formal Techniques.

kusanku
11th October 2001, 23:34
Consider this:

Judo has no real secrets, that are not taught the first day, to beginners.In any judo class in the world.Leverage, unbalancing, stance, angles and directions , tai sabaki and principles of maximum efficiency with minimum effort. Judo teaches everybody everything, holding nothing back.

Judo has no mysterious katas the meanings of which require a genius to explain.They are done with partners and you can see what is happening right away.

Judo can be sport, phys ed, and self defense, based on the same principles taught that first day.

Judo is never mistaken by its practitioners for a religion. Not these days, anyway.

Judo is neither full of mystical jargon or torn apart stylistically by really extreme differences, although politics messes up itsd orgs like other things.

Judo is an art based in scientifically demonstrable and thus, transmittable ,principles that do not require one to change their entire view of reality to somehow attain to the innermost core of the art, the 'secrets' of judo are the secrets of physics and are an open book.

Judo is practiced in a safe manner with partners who resist your attempts after a while, so that you really have to be able to really do the safe version of the waza, to say you can do it.This gives judoka a tremendous advantage over many other martial arts people.They know exactly what will happen when they apply a footsweep on an attacker.They know what it feels like to handle a larger opponent coming at them close in, and how to turn the situation to their advantage.And they should know ways to turn those sport techniques into self defense techniques.Tai sabaki and swep with hands and arms and legs to avoid and intercept, unbalance, and apply.

Judo thus, is an eminently practical and practicable method of training wherewith one can defend themselves, and in most cases, with minimal damage to an attacker.If this is the desired result.

Without comparing it by name to other endeavors, it is true that the judoka will be an invaluable ally if in a dark alley, you are jumped by ferocious attackers.Of course, most judoka, having a philosophy at once practical and wise, would tell you to stay out of the dark alley, in the first place.:-)

Judo can be a good thing.Best part is, its only necessary to get to about sankyu level in it, to be able to use it in most situations.Unlike some arts where years and decades are supposedly necessary even to learn how to do the most basic things properly.As little as a few months training, even, can do wonders, at least one learns how to fall, without harm, and unbalance attackers, to their immediate detriment.

Regards to all,

Kit LeBlanc
12th October 2001, 01:45
Here's a story about judo used in a real fighting situation, against armed men, from one of Joe Svinth's articles... "Professor Yamashita Goes to Washington" posted on the Aikido Journal website.


" .....in 1946, the British judo pioneer E.J. Harrison, who studied judo at the Kodokan around 1905, told the following stories of Professor Yamashita’s practical fighting skills in the Budokwai Quarterly Bulletin:


It chanced that some years before I joined the Kodokwan Yamashita and a friend were assaulted by seventeen coolies in a Tokyo meat-shop – a sort of popular restaurant. Although some of the coolies were armed with knives the gang were dispersed in a twinkling, three of them with broken arms and all with bruised and battered faces. [EN2] As fast as one of the two experts artistically ‘downed’ his man the other would pick the victim up like an empty sack and dump him unceremoniously in the street. The only evidence of the conflict on the side of the two experts took the form of skinned knuckles where the latter had come in contact with the coolies’ teeth. On another occasion Yamashita fell foul of a coolie in the upper room of a restaurant and promptly threw him downstairs. The coolie returned to the fray with fourteen comrades, but Yamashita calmly sat at the head of the stairs and as fast as the coolies came up in single file, owing to the narrowness of the passage, he simple choked them in detail and hurled them back down again. In the excitement of the moment he was rather rougher than was strictly necessary, and so broke one man’s neck. The rest fled in terror, carrying off their dead and wounded. Yamashita was arrested, but as he was easily able to prove that he had been one man against fifteen he was, of course, acquitted. Nevertheless, the Kodokwan temporarily suspended him for his conduct, which was deemed unduly violent."

MarkF
12th October 2001, 09:22
That's a really good article, all inclusive. I doubt there is any exaggeration, either, as the Kodokan would do the same today. Of course we all know judo is only a sport and such "rectalessness" is not tolerated.;-)

Anonymous ex-judoka:"When I do attack drills, my judo comes out.

People still write about that today, that in anyone with a judo background, when all else fails, the foundation in judo usually surfaces.

A quote from an old Black Belt Magazine article from ca. 1964:

Another anonymous as I can't remember the fellow's name, but he was a rather well known koryu jujutsuka of the time:

"The sankyu knows what the sandan knows, the sandan knows it better" and when given this quote, our friend, Joe Svinth reworded it slightly but effectively:

"The sankyu knows what the sandan knows, the sandan brags about it more."

The article was about judo, and the fellow also said: "In the first forty years or so, you are really only doing budo taijutsu, but after that, you may be doing judo (paraphrase, as I couldn't find the exact quote)."

Well, in two years or so, I can perhaps go from judoshugyosha to judoka?

Mark

kusanku
13th October 2001, 00:30
Say it ain't so, Mark!:cry: Tell me it don't take forty years, FORTY YEARS! just to become a True Judoka.

You been reading the Aikido Forum, haven't ya?C'mon, fess up, now!:D

MarkF
13th October 2001, 12:05
...'fessed.:)

Mark

kusanku
14th October 2001, 02:25
Thought so.:laugh:

hector gomez
17th October 2001, 02:06
Judo is a very important part of self-defense,even if your
not wearing your judogi,the very important lessons one
learns from kuzushi(unbalancing)are very crucial for importance
of positioning and throw(nage-waza)in a fight.

As far as self-defense is concerned,once the striking range is done with, and the confrontation turns into grappling, this is when judo should kick in.

Even a judo player with poor striking skills ,might still be at an
advantages position in a self-defense situation,simply because of
the odds, that the striker might not be able to cause damage before the grappling begins.

Judo might not cover all aspects of self-defense properly,but the
ones that are covered are done very well.

AS far as addressing ne-waza(ground fighting)issue,judo and bjj are very
good ,of course bjj concentrates a lot more of their time down on the ground ,so naturally someone who does this, is going to automatically be beter at ne-waza.Although i have seen some
great judokas, that have for whatever reason wanted to
emphasize the ground fighting, become just as good.

Hector Gomez

joe yang
17th October 2001, 02:52
I regularly use judo at work. Combative inmates often try to roll with the guards in their bare feet. (We give them really cheesey footgear.) First we sweep them down. Then we put on arm locks. Then while we cuff them, if they're still struggling, I have my own little "compliance" move. I've found a finger lock is even more effective on your pinky toe.

MarkF
17th October 2001, 10:12
Yeah, we don't walk on our hands.

Mark

Barry Southam
17th October 2001, 12:09
Friends,

We should never have to discuss the value of Judo as a martial art....Anyone who really studies Judo knows it's an effective means of selfdefense and martial art... I've never read or heard of anyone being mugged or attacked 10 ft. away.....Up close and personal, which is in Judo's back yard....Judo does of course have striking and blocking in it's curriculum and therefore..Judoka should have no problem covering the distance if the attacker throws a punch or kick....
Judo should be given more credit than it has been by non Judoka who really don't know what makes up the areas of Judo as well as by some uninformed Judoka as well..

Judo techniques and principles are effective !!!!!


Take Care

Barry E. Southam

PeteBoyes
17th October 2001, 12:55
Apologies in advance - this is my first post.

Can Judo be used for Self-defence ? Yes, of course!

When defending yourself then you would use any skills that you possessed. If you were a hockey player you may be able to utilise a stick or broom that was within reach, if you were a hairstylist you might have a spray can or sharp pair of scissors available.

If the questions is, Would you teach Judo as self-defence ? Then the answer is not so certain. Judo has many techniques that can be utilised, but Judoka generally study them for many years to achieve competency. That is why, in the UK, qualified self-defence coaches are not allowed to teach Judo when they teach self-defence.

Pete.

Bob Steinkraus
17th October 2001, 17:32
How do they draw the distinction between teaching judo and teaching self-defense?

As far as I can tell, when teaching self defense techniques such as waki-gatame or o-soto-gari, you are teaching judo techniques (which are effective in street fights) and judo principles (which are also effective in street fights). I don't see a difference, nor any way to avoid it.

Of course, you can narrowly define judo as being only the sportive aspect of the art, so that anyone being taught who is not wearing a gi or preparing for contest is not studying judo, but this is getting away (in my view) from the classical way of judo.

Of course, I am willing to define Brazilian jujitsu as a branch of judo as well.

Regards,
Bob Steinkraus

CEB
17th October 2001, 18:49
The father of a close friend of mine was a policeman in the USAF in the 1950's. He told us that he had to learn Judo as part of his job. Therefore it must have tremendous combat value. I don't think he ever used Judo on the job. I think he mostly spent his time freezing in Greenland.

Ed Boyd

hector gomez
17th October 2001, 19:46
I believe that judo/bjj are babies born from the same womb.

Since they are very similar ,with the exception of one art emphasizing throws ,and the other focusing on groundwork.

The gracies/bjj/judo, have definitely proven that this system has merit
when it comes to self defense.

Yes judo is great for self -defense,but just like some of the gracies
are starting to realize,that crosstraining is essential ,so should a
judoka ,also acknowledge, it does not have all the answers, a judoka is faced with
the same dilema ,yes judo is very practical for self-defense,but
in order to cover all self-defense situations ,one should crosstrain.


Hector Gomez

Don Cunningham
17th October 2001, 21:28
I am not familiar with the legal requirments in the UK, but what does it mean to be a "qualified self-defence coaches"? Is this some sort of government regulation?

Barry Southam
17th October 2001, 22:02
Friends,

Judo as I have always said is an effective means of selfdefense.....We all study Judo and if you study "Total Judo" then it includes striking,blocking,jointlocks beyond just the elbow and the martial art aspect......We all study Judo but it's our secondary interests that are different " sporting aspect and application or the selfdefense application"....I have always studied Judo as a martial art and that is how I teach it.......osoto gari is osoto gari no matter what your interest: sport or selfdefense.....It's the manner in how you apply it or get into position or the combination of various other aspects of Judo that you incorporate prior to, during or after you use Osoto gari or any other Judo throw or technique...

Many Judo throws do take practice...However, there are aspects of the techniques and principles that don't take as much practice if you remember the technique....Such as striking, blocking, jointlocks, specific selfdefense techniques, body movement etc.,etc.,..


Take Care

Barry E. Southam

Scanderson
18th October 2001, 00:01
I would have to agree with Mr. Southham. Is judo really taught the same way it was during the Kano/post war years? I keep reading over and over "Judo was never the same" and "more rough and tumble back then" and "post war judo", etc., etc. This is not to say Judo still is not the "gold standard", but it does make one wonder why those old judo texts are so sought after...


Stephen C. Anderson

Goju Man
18th October 2001, 03:36
Hello, I'm new to this forum but this topic is excellent and I thought I would throw my two cents in. I have practised and competed in Judo, though I am primarily a striker. I have used Judo techniques outside the mat and I can tell you they work just fine. I add them to my striking and jiujitsu and the result is great. I train mostly in reality based fighting and can tell you that my partner and I seem to use these takedowns quite a bit. Good gor self defense, Absolutley. Does the sport side help, absolutley. When you are good at throwing and fighting other Judoka, throwing an untrained fighter is a lot easier.

Regards,
Manny Salazar
it's all that;)

Ben_Holmes
18th October 2001, 03:58
Please excuse the private message... Kusanku, can you email me at bnholmes@rain.org ? I'd like to post one of your messages on my website, and would like permission...

johan smits
18th October 2001, 08:12
I have been following this topic with interest and although the original question is very good until know it has gotten mostly a lot of hurray stories for judo which makes the whole debate a bit one-sided if you don't mind me saying.

Don't get me wrong! In my pov judo is one of the most underestimated fighting arts. The main reason it get's underestimated is that it isn't taught as a fighting art.
Top competition judoka are very tough and strong and will be abel to defend themselves if necessary even though they are so called sport oriented. But that's only a handful of people. How about the average judoka, training two or three times a week?

All the clubs I know off in my country teach judo as a sport, self defence is not an issue. You do self-defence or jujutsu or a striking/kicking art for that. When you don't train for fighting it does change the mindset of it's practitioners and it also changes techniques.

I started judo at a small club under a teacher who followed the Kawaishi system of judo (I didn't know this at first for me judo was just judo) when I switched to another club (not Kawaishi) there was a difference not only in (the execution) of techniques but also in attitude. My first teacher clearly saw judo as a fighting art with a minor part being sport.

Judo has the potential to be a great fighting art, but not just like that it is something that has to be worked on.

Anyway, my thoughts on the subject,

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

PeteBoyes
18th October 2001, 10:30
Hi all,

in response to the question regarding 'qualified' Self-defence instructors.

Yes, here in the UK there is a Nationally recognised qualification of Personal Safety Advisor. Note the middle word 'Safety'.

This is run by the British Judo Association (BJA) and has been adopted by the government and many agencies who want their staff/members to be more aware of matters affecting their personal safety.

The qualification enables the instructor to cover a whole gamut of situations, from street attacks to Night-club Doormen (Bouncers!). The BJA must sanction all courses in advance.

'Judo' is not taught! e.g. In a street situation would you do a full 'arm-slap' breakfall on concrete. When you throw someone, you then run away to the nearest point of safety you don't follow them to the ground.

The aim is to teach people to recognise dangerous situations in advance so that they might avoid them, or at least be forewarned rather than surprised.

MarkF
18th October 2001, 10:33
I must be getting old. I had always thought that shiai was fighting, a combative, sporting fight. You bow, throw someone through the floor, get back in place, bow and shake hands.

In boxing, shifting the words throw for KO, and you have the same combative sporting fight.

Most consider boxers to be good fighters, even if they do not fight professionally, or even better, that they don't. Boxers, if noting else, learn self-defense.

The fact that a teacher is teaching you how to fight in a controlled environment is something one should be able to work through to get what s/he needs from it. Even in what you may think is a real fight, it is an environment in which you fight, with different, but effective rule of the fight (which can be noted in preparation for one. Distance, the opponent or attacker, the surface, the emotional state of the one who decides there will be a fight, how one is attacked, from what direction, etc.) and, with the exception of not fighting on the mat, judo technique, no matter how it is taught, comes to the top.

This one can say is my opinion, but I've got an awfully good lineage of people who see it that way, or saw it.

Add what Barry Southam teaches, and one may, or may not be satisfied. A combative sport is no less combative than anything else. The difference is the *symbolic* victory we take from shiai or randori, but as koryu is probably in the wait and see category today (it wasn't always like that. Challenge matches took place all the time, for the reasons of finding new technique, or trying old ones, or just to fight).

Judo, in fact, buts the person in the combative arena almost from the beginning, as ukemi does not protect you from a floor with mats, it protects you all the time no matter what the surface.
*****

Kawaishi came from the Waseda University area of judo, one which added kata such as the go no sen no kata, not recognized by the Kodokan, and practiced, even in the days before kawaishi in France, more newaza than did judo at the time. Remember, Kawaishi's judo is no less than Kodokan Judo, just as people today see it differently, and how they choose to play it. He simply used it in a way he thought most efficiently.
*****

You may have been taught to "roll out" of a certain throw to evade the call of Ippon, but put that also to a street encounter, and you've just learned to stay healthy.
*****

No MA or combative sport has all the moves, so crosstraining to improve a basic art isn't a bad idea, but I've read or heard the opinions of those most admired as writers and researchers, say they'd rather be accompanied by a judoka in that alley, than any other type fighter.

Strange that these people would choose a *sport* over REAL martial arts now, isn't it.

But that's my opinion. I could be wrong.

Mark

Barry Southam
18th October 2001, 12:13
Friends,


Someone mentioned what if you just teach or train in Judo 2 or 3 times a week and aren't say a nationally ranked Judo competitor but the average person......The answer is no problem whatsoever!!!!!! I teach Judo as I said just a few times a week to average people although two study Taekwondo elsewhere and are 1 st dan in TKD.....YOU CAN STILL learn to adequately defend yourself.....Remember, your average person isn't training to go into all out military combat or wants to walk down the toughest alley in the city or go into a biker bar or tough bar and yell for a challenge.....They want to be able to avoid an attack if possible and if they have to defend themselves, to do it quickly and get out.....Also remember, even though some attackers may be quite strong and powerful big bad guys......That may not be the norm in many cases....So if attacked, it might not be from the recent winner of the ultimate fighting challenge competition but some average GOOF!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take care

Barry E. Southam

johan smits
18th October 2001, 13:35
Hello Barry,

I think you have a very good point there, but I wasn't talking about complete mayhem either.

It's just that I think that judo or whatever art when taught and practised as a sport does not automatically mean it's practitioners will be abel to defend themselves when things turn ugly.
Build in safequards (from the system) may work against a practitioner when used on the street.
I also think this is for a part a reason why techniques originally used to be executed in a (slightly) different way.

In a way I think this becomes obvious when you look at judo's curriculum. Self-defence methods were/are taught separately in (amongst others) kime no kata and goshin jutsu no kata.
I think this was partly done to train (maybe identical techniques to sport judo) with a different mindset.

But it's just a thought.

Best,

Johan Smits

MarkF
19th October 2001, 09:08
Of course you're right, Johann, but that is true with any budo. No style of budo automatically gives you a big advantage in that situation, and most of us will never even need it as most do not get seriously involved to use it.

There may be a higher percentage of people who do on bulletin boards, but the average Joe Shugyo has only a slight advantage in an unarmed fight, anyway. All of us need to remember that when, or if, a situation comes about.

Also, there is lots of waza outside of the kata, and can be utilized by those who choose to learn them. Lots of nage waza are learned which are not used in everyday randori, but it is learned.

Same with katame waza and atemi waza.

A suggestion for judoka who are weapons-minded: Learn the jo. It goes nicely with judo, and can fill some holes otherwise going unfulfilled. No one is limited to just judo as Barry said. I've had and have now gojukai students who are there to fill in the holes of a 'hard' method.

So watch your back.;)

Mark

dakotajudo
20th October 2001, 14:34
Originally posted by johan smits


In a way I think this becomes obvious when you look at judo's curriculum. Self-defence methods were/are taught separately in (amongst others) kime no kata and goshin jutsu no kata.
I think this was partly done to train (maybe identical techniques to sport judo) with a different mindset.


There was no such thing as "sport" judo when the kime-no-kata (and the rest, excluding the goshin jutsu) was formulated, there was only judo. The kata were derived from judo koryu jujutsu roots, to preserve both the koryu techniques and the koryu training methods.

Kano's innovation with judo was the addition of randori training (although similar methods of training were found in other arts) and his principle of "seiryoku zenyo" and "jita kyoei". However, some koryu techniques were judged too dangerous to be attempted during randori, and were taught only in kata.

Kata are a tool to demonstrate judo theory, while randori is a tool to understand the theory in application. All the kata have self-defense applications.

Of course, that applies only to Kodokan judo, and I am aware that some clubs teach only IJF (Olympic) style judo. Still, I don't think the mindset is very different whether you're in the world, with no place to run, facing someone who's willing to hurt you to take your wallet, and when you're on the mat, with no place to run, facing someone who's willing to hurt you to win the match.

ken lester
21st October 2001, 02:02
One thing I think we all need to remember(with all this banter on the sport aspect of Judo) is that greco -roman and freestyle wrestling are also sports. Sport wrestlers, with a slight change in mindset (like learning to slip in a finishing hold or striking where appropriate) do very well in full contact mixed martial arts fights. As athletes I believe they bring something more to the table, mainly superior training. They have super kinesthetic awareness and above average dedication. Most have been training for a long time- since childhood or their early teens. But- does wrestling on the mat in say, a collegiate tournament resemble a street fight? No- but who cares. Does everyone out there think they are no good in fights/self defense because of rule restraints? I live in Arizona where by chance Mark Kerr, Don Frey, Christoph Leninger, Ricco Rodriguez, and David Dodd live--oh, I forgot Kevin Jackson and someone else to watch- Danny Furyk. I have seen many wrestlers train with Gi and submissions and they have no problem. Likewise I have trained in BJJ and was thrilled at the prospect of ankle, knee and wrist locks. All it took was a simple paradigm shift- me telling myself "ok-now I have this and that open to me ". A seriously trained Judoka can go into a BJJ dojo and sweep the floor with most of the students. A seriously trained BJJ man can do likewise with the majority of students at the Judo dojo(does everyone see where I am going here?). As far as pure strikers- well, I remember that prior to the UFC's and the like you never saw Judo or wrestling in martial arts magazines. Kung fu and Karate practitioners acted as if they had a corner on the martial arts market. If many now are on their heels defending their art, mind you, I respect all arts and see their appplication. But I remember a day when most strikers would ask WHY? when I told them that I was in judo. Everyone should read up on Dr. Jigaro Kano and they will understand his intent and his knowledge base (and from where he derived it) for establishing Judo. As well we should all remember that it is the person in the art- where he takes it dedication wise that makes the most difference. I also concur with another on this thread who pushed the point on cross training. -Also- rugby used to be called the "martial art of New Zealand".-Best wishes to all!-Ken

MarkF
21st October 2001, 10:24
Ken,
Welcome to E-budo!:wave:

That was one of the best argument for sports as fighting styles, and fighting styles as sports.

I've only seen, perhaps, two UFC shows and thought, well, if a contest without rules says you should wear gloves and even head gear, I thought that alone made is less a no holds barred contest than some judo tournaments.
******

Conrad Thalhammer, a past judo champion and Olympic competitor said, slightly paraphrased: "If you are not training for the Olympics, you shouldn't be training at all." I think most of those who are winners in the judo contests of International shiai probably think likewise to a point.

Another says "Wrestlers beat the judoka, and judoka beats the boxer (English boxing or karate). Most times, it is true enough for it to actually be a "saying."

Robert W. Smith, judoka, amoung other MA about which he has written, calls judo "Jacketed wrestling." I used to have a problem with that, but then, most judo players are not nearly specific enough to explain what we do in a "nutshell" so I suppose it is.

Smith, Draeger, and others have said, concerning the walk in the proverbial dark alley, would choose judoka as the one with whom they would take the walk.

Mike Swain has come out with something which really is a sport ("sport judo"), but the same holds true with boxers and wrestlers.

Anyway, thanks for your post.


If you take the trip here (http://www.ijf.org), you will find most on their, the Internation Judo Federation's forum, discuss judo (search for their forum, as I've forgotten which link gets you there) in the purely sporting aspect.

I found the shiai circuit worked better for me than discussing it for nineteen years or so. Injury[s] and age have shown me a newer light.

Anyway, I liked your post, Ken.

Mark

efb8th
17th December 2001, 05:49
Hi, all.

If you would like some Judo for self defense to introduce to your classes, I suggest Ruth Horan's JUDO FOR WOMEN (1965) Bonanza Books (pub.), New York. And of course, whenever you go over the prohibited acts (Dho Jime, Kani Basami, Hands on Face, Feet on face, strikes, locks against joints other than the elbow, standing armlock takedowns, etc.), it's always good to point out why the acts are prhobited for contest and make sure your students KNOW HOW TO USE THEM! (Should the need arise.)

It is also profitable to go over the "fouls" of other sports to pick up good self-defense techniques. For example, Hook punch to the groin, following through with the elbow after throwing a punch, rabbit punch, kidney punch, head butt: you get the picture.

One man's foul is another man's jujitsu.

Regards,

Paul Steadman
15th January 2002, 15:01
Hi Again All,

So judo can be used for self-defence if a particular sensei/dojo gears itself towards self-defence training as opposed to sports training and winning tournaments! I am sure that the majority of hard training athletes such as judoka. karateka, aikidoka, greco-roman wrestlers and boxers etc have a better chance of defending themselves than those people who don't participate in a martial arts or combat sports. But I don't believe that the garden variety judoka (or other budoka) who trains in a limited, rules-bound, sports competition manner (this ap[plies to BJJ as well) is prepared to face a person intent on doing them physical harm.

A lot of people talk about cross-training. Do a bit of judo, a bit of karate, kick-boxing, wrestling, arnis/eskrima, boxing etc, etc, etc, to round out the total fighter. The funny thing is that the majority of Eastern and Western martial arts contained; long distance techniques (punching & kicking), close in techniques, take-downs, throws, holds, weapons (all manner of bladed, stick and firearms) and weapons disarms etc.

The ancient Samurai didn't train in his military arts ("bu'" means military) with a methodoligy or with a psychology of sports competition or winning tournaments, neither did the hoplites or Roman soldier. But now we have derivatives of these old systems that concentrate on only one or a few areas of combat and with winning tournaments in mind.

I bet Kano Jigoro-Sensei didn't have to cross train in karate or arnis de mano!

Boxers break their knuckles in confrontations out of the ring, olympic fencers get stabbed in real duels, judoka get pricked by blood filled syringes, kendoka get their legs whacked from out underneath them etc. All because people tend to fight how they train! Please don't tell me that kata training breeds ill-prepared combatants that don't stand a chance in a real fight because they are too stagnant and unimaginative. Kata based training worked fairly well for the Samurai, the Ching/Han/Ming soldiers, the hoplites and the roman soldier etc right up to modern security, police and military personell.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

dakotajudo
15th January 2002, 15:59
Originally posted by Paul Steadman
But I don't believe that the garden variety judoka (or other budoka) who trains in a limited, rules-bound, sports competition manner (this ap[plies to BJJ as well) is prepared to face a person intent on doing them physical harm.


I would suspect you've not competed, since I've been in shiai against a person intent on doing physical harm.




Boxers break their knuckles in confrontations out of the ring, olympic fencers get stabbed in real duels, judoka get pricked by blood filled syringes, kendoka get their legs whacked from out underneath them etc.

Blood filled syringes? Do you have proof for these claims?




All because people tend to fight how they train! Please don't tell me that kata training breeds ill-prepared combatants that don't stand a chance in a real fight because they are too stagnant and unimaginative. Kata based training worked fairly well for the Samurai, the Ching/Han/Ming soldiers, the hoplites and the roman soldier etc right up to modern security, police and military personell.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

How does kata training better prepare you to face a person intent on doing harm than randori training? Some of my best performance in randori and shiai happened when I was truly afraid the person I was facing would hurt me.

Just calling something sport-oriented does not make it a game.

Kit LeBlanc
15th January 2002, 16:46
And just calling it koryu does not make it effective in self defense. We are going down the same road, twice, in the same thread, yet. Well, here's more of the SAME...

Paul, koryu jujutsuka would fall prey to EVERY one of your examples listed above...and may not have the resolve and toughness developed from years of competitive and resistive style training to overcome it.

As for modern police and military personnel...increasingly we are being introduced to more and more force-on-force training (i.e. resistive drills, though not quite randori) because it is being shown to be much more effective for combative performance. Like judo, and like koryu kata, it is not the real thing, and like them has a set of rules for safety depending upon the nature of the training.

I think that kata probably worked for the bushi, and for ancient Chinese warriors because:

1) It was probably done much differently than most jujutsu kata are practiced today

2) They actually went out and USED it.... and adjusted what they were practicing from their experience.

I guess we don't know, since even Dr. Karl Friday says that the way koryu are practiced today probably has little in common with the way they were practiced when they were arts for battle.

I would bet that many bushi were also very familiar with resistive training, as in sumo, but didn't consider sumo a combat art, because it wasn't done in armor, and didn't use weapons. That being said, I am sure they understood that they GAINED a great deal of skill that APPLIED to close quarters combat, but had enough imagination and experience in combat to recognize that and apply it appropriately. Many modern koryu practitioners and headmasters of ryu hold high ranking and have competitive experience in judo, kendo, and jukendo, for example. Maybe it is this experience that has made them effective (if they are such) and allows them to use their koryu methods in realistic ways?

Many techniques in koryu kata are practical and useful....if done properly in a realistic context, which kata is generally not. Many, even in some of the highly respected systems, are ludicrous pantomime of real world fighting. I know at least one koryu method which recognizes this and changes its kata regularly based on how the techniques work in practical, resistive training.

There are reasons, and there is practical usefulness to training koryu. But, like anything else, it needs to be tweaked to make it realistic. Same thing with judo, but with a caveat....real fights look a lot more like judo and wrestling with some punches and kicks thrown in than they do koryu kata or aikido.

MarkF
16th January 2002, 10:29
BTW: Boxers break their knuckles with gloves on and in the ring. outside the ring, rarely more than one punch is necessary.
******

What is it that brings the troll out who start a thread with preconceived ideas, sits around for a few months, asks the same basic questions in most forums, then comes back to tell us we don't have the slightest?

One answer may be that most give the troll the benefit of the doubt and answers his queries. It is a shame the troll never stays long enough to discuss his question, but to do otherwise he may learn something. Trolls go in believing what they believe, and when they do come back completey ignore those who have studied the subject, some for decades.

William F. Kincaid
24th January 2002, 19:03
Well for those who remember me from posts along time ago, (college, National Guard, teaching, Judo, Aikido, and work kept me away from here):cry:, know that I like the self defense aspect of Judo more than the shiai aspect. Funny how injuries make you see that.lol. I recently tried a form of Uki-Tori in which more self defense techniques were utilized. this was done by asking the uki to throw slow but honest attacks at tori and it was tori's job to defend his or herself from the attack. The results it produced were amazing. while they knew various self defense techniques, (they are required for advancement in their Dojo) their timing was totally off and they couldn't get out of kata learning mode. (knowing what technique was coming when it was coming and where it was coming from.). So afterwards i sat down with them and discussed this and they came to the same conclusion. Kata is important very important especially in teaching the techniques to judoka, but like shiai you can become trapped in its framework and actually start hurting your Judo progression. So now when we have a self defense night or day.lol We end the class by doing an hour or so of self defense randori.

Don't know if this helps or not but seemed like a good place to explain this.

MarkF
25th January 2002, 10:02
As I teach pretty much as taught, I've found those who train in all-out randori (a rule which can be found in most editions of Kodokan Judo) even abiding the rule of randori/shiai of no purposefully dangerous techniques, are better able to defend themselves.

The age thing, along with injuries can change you in all sorts of ways, including finding more and interesting things not included when fighting on the "circuit," so to speak.

That said, there is a ton of technique which can make you better, later.


Mark

MarkF
26th January 2002, 10:02
Hi, Ed,
If you are looking for your post and replies to it, I thought it would make a good, new thread. You did ask for specifics concerning technique so I hope you don't mind.

It is titled as you titled the post "Judo Is Real."


Mark

MTripp
2nd February 2002, 12:29
If you are looking to see Judo taught as an excellent system of self-defense then Stadion sells a tape on the subject that is the best work I have ever seen.

As to the rest, this subject seems to come down to the same sides it always does.

In truth, NO unarmed system is going to be very effective in todays world. Even Draeger said to carry a extendable baton like tha japanese police use, and all unarmed styes would fall to it (yes, doing so is illegal in most places).

However, he also said plainly that the true judoka who fought in randori or shiai, even a brown belt, was the unarmed fighter to take into a rough bar.

Today, we know that Combatives is a very different subject than martial art or martial sport. However, even the first father of combatives, William Fairbairn had a nidan from Kano, and the top three combative people who created sambo had a kodokan nidan among them.

You don't win WW2 with WW1 weapons, Wally Jay has said that for years, all combatives is an evolving process and as such is a very different training arena.

However, once combative concepts are mastered, I find a martial sport keeps the skill levels sharp.

For me, that martial sport has always been Judo.

MarkF
23rd September 2005, 18:59
So can it be used in Self-defense?


Mark

Barry Southam
23rd September 2005, 22:00
Hello,

We shouldn't have to be discussing can Judo be used for selfdefense ! Kodokan Judo has as you all know nage Waza, osaekomi Waza, Shime Waza, Kansetsu Waza, ATEMI WAZA, BLOCKING/PARRYING and the PRINCIPLES and TECHNIQUES that are learned through the study of KATA.

Judo is a very effective method of selfdefense. We all learn Osoto gari but it's how we apply it that may be different. I may be interested in how to apply the throw in a selfdefense situation whereas another individual who is interested in sport, may want to practice the application in contest.

Judo is a martial art with the sporting aspect as an added benefit of studying Judo. If we study ALL the areas of Judo, we can put them together to meet all of our selfdefense needes. EVen those who are restricted as to the use of force would benefit greatly from the Principles and techniques of Judo. In Judo we have a very wide and flexible spectrum as to our response to an attack. We can go from mild to severe in our response based on our ability and situation. We have choices and are not limited to a response of severity and causing injury.

Some people since the 1964 olympics have been brought up in an atmosphere of only sport judo and it's no fault of their own , that some may not even realize that Judo contains striking and jointlocks other than on the elbow,etc.,etc.,. Judo is a martial art and olympic sport.

Take Care

Barry E. Southam

Jay Vail
24th September 2005, 12:33
The question whether judo is effective for combat is one that has been exhaustively debated in this forum before. Then, as now, questions were raised about whether judo’s modern emphasis on sport have deprived it of martial effectiveness. Then, as now, people have weighed in on both sides, and many long time judoka have emotionally defended it as effective even given the sad degeneration that one sees due to its emphasis on sport.

As a derivative -- or as some may consider a ryu -- of jujutsu, judo certainly has the potential to be effective in combat and for street defense.

As for its effectiveness, please allow me to give a bit of personal testimony. I have trained in karate for 35 years. Before that, I trained in judo for two years starting in 1964. I was 12 when I started judo. During the six years between my start of judo and when I started karate, I had about two dozen street fights. Some were very serious punch outs and some involved weapons. I have had knives pulled on me and I have been stabbed twice.

In those fights (with the exception of the stabbings), I was able to use judo very effectively to defend myself. That is not to say that I was able to “win” the fight every time; there were a number that I got stomped. But judo gave me a valuable edge and often enabled me to avoid what could have been serious injury. The techniques I employed ranged from atemi with the hands, elbows and feet, to throws.

Even as recently as 12-13 years ago, I had the occasion to use judo to defend against an attack at a soccer game, when a guy tried to punch me (threw the guy with koshi-garuma; after that he decided he didn’t want to fight after all).

Consequently, I have the greatest respect for judo. I have used it whenever the opportunity arises in karate freeplay as well, and I will undoubtedly use it again if I ever have the misfortune to face the threat of real violence.

I will add one thing, which arises from my experience, although this will probably inflame some people. I don’t think much of trying to choke somebody out on the street or in ground fighting. I have seen people who went to ground wrestling stomped by bystanders. I also have had friends of my opponent intervene when we were on the ground. The ground generally is a place to be avoided if you can possibly do so, if you want to avoid a trip to the hospital. You may want to put the guy on the ground, but you want to finish him quickly once he’s there.

Barry Southam
24th September 2005, 15:28
Friends,

I think the reason that people today discuss whether or not Judo is effective in a selfdefense situation. Is the focus it has been given for years as a sport and organizations such as the USJA prefix the word with sport many times instead of just Judo. Most non martial artists don't question Taekwondo's capeability to be used in selfdefense, even though it's being pushed as a sport. Why should Judo be singled out with this discussion. After all as I and others have mentioned, we have all the categories needed and the flexibility to be gentle when needed or more forceful if appropriate. Even Taekwondo and some Karate systems cannot say that. I don't see any reason why people cannot look at Judo as "Judo" which is a martial art that has also been accepted as an olympic sport. When looking for a dojo, you just find out what the instructor's focus is: selfdefense, sport, or both.Including youth or adult emphasis.
Maybe there must be a revitalization(publicity) as to Judo as an effective selfdefense system. This may keep possible future students of Judo who are looking for a means of selfdefense from walking towards the Taekwondo and karate schools and become enlightened as to what a Judo Dojo has to offer.
I don't think anyone is mugged from a distance and therefore Judo is ideal for both young, middle age and older.Especially youth and those working in employment settings where there are regulations as to the use of force.
You might not use seoinage but there are many other throws and applications that are readily available when the safety of the assailant is important. Such as working in special education with emotionally disturbed students, hospitals,police work and the general school population from students to teachers. Not to mention the general public since we must abide by the law in appropriate response to an attack.

Hope everyone has a nice weekend.

Barry E. Southam

Richard Riehle
24th September 2005, 20:33
In one of the dojos where I teach and practice, someone asked about using Judo for self-defense. There was a sense, among some, that Judo had, as one contributor to this forum suggested "an over-reliance on the grabbing the gi."

During the many years I have been training in Judo, I have developed a pretty good sense of timing with my ashi-waza. So I asked someone to come and grab me. As they reached out for me, I pushed them down to the mat with one hand. At least that is how it appeared to anyone watching. I actually took advantage of the movement of the attacker's feet and took the right foot away with a small ko uchi gari at the same time I pushed.

I have demonstrated the value of this kind of thing using many different ashi-waza, including de ashi harai and sasae tsurikomi ashi. I have even used it to defend myself on rare occasions during my mispent youth.

An important idea in defending oneself is to avoid injuring the attacker. Professor Kano once suspended a high-ranking member of the Kodokan who injured a person while defending himself against a large gang of thugs on the streets of old Tokyo. Shihan Kano said, "A person with your skill should have been able to control the situation so no one was hurt."

The essence of Judo, also true of Aikido, is not to defeat an attacker, but to help that attacker learn the folly of his ways and, having learned a valuable lesson, move on to become a better person. We do not simply "turn the other cheek." Rather, we turn the other person, turning them, if possible, toward a more acceptable set of behaviors.

Richard Riehle

Jay Vail
24th September 2005, 22:24
The essence of Judo, also true of Aikido, is not to defeat an attacker, but to help that attacker learn the folly of his ways and, having learned a valuable lesson, move on to become a better person. We do not simply "turn the other cheek." Rather, we turn the other person, turning them, if possible, toward a more acceptable set of behaviors.

Richard Riehle


Sorry and respectfully, but that is nonsense. You have obviously not had somebody sit on your chest and try to pound your teeth out. The object of judo, like any other self defense method, is not to get stomped. Period, end of story.

Robc
24th September 2005, 23:06
Paul,

Have you ever competed while an adult in judo, wrestling, or BJJ? If you have, I don't think you would have asked the question you did unless you were just trying to stir up debate. If you have not, I understand why you asked the question. It is self evident that the skills and attributes developed through judo, and other grappling based arts will provide a fine grounding in self defense. I always tell folks who ask a question similar to yours to pick a fight with a decent high school wrestler of comparable size and find out of his sport has prepared him to defend himself.

Cheers,

Richard Riehle
24th September 2005, 23:46
Sorry and respectfully, but that is nonsense. You have obviously not had somebody sit on your chest and try to pound your teeth out. The object of judo, like any other self defense method, is not to get stomped. Period, end of story.

I suppose we all have different goals. Certainly, I agree with you that protecting oneself from harm is an important consideration. For many of us,
the occasion to keep from getting "stomped" is relatively infrequent. During my military service I did have occasion to engage my Judo/Jiu Jitsu training to avoid getting hurt and to hurt someone else. In civilian life, this almost never happens, although I can recall some occurrences where it has.

Since, for most of us, the risk of being called upon to use judo in self-defense is small, we must ask whether there are other reasons for training.

In my case I travel to a lot of different countries for work and pleasure. Besides Judo, I have also trained in Aikido, Jiu Jitsu, Karate, and some weapons. Martial arts experience does give me a slightly higher level of self-confidence -- though not the extent that I take foolhardy chances. The brief summary of budo in Aikido and The Dynamic Sphere is worth reading. In particular, the discussion of Unified Power of Attack and possible responses to it may be of interest. One of the great martial arts masters, I don't recall which one, said, "Uke is always right." There is a deeper message in that statement. One that takes a long time to learn. A lesson that some of us, including me, must re-learn often.

The sport of Judo is going to benefit each of us according to our own predilections and interests. For me, now on the threshold of my eighth decade, the benefits of Judo are as I described them in my post. If the world in which you live is fraught with daily danger, the avoidance of harm may be the most important benefit.

I stand by my original post. For me, and I believe for many others, Judo is not simply about not getting "stomped." When one studies the writings of Jigoro Kano it becomes clear that this was not his vision of Judo. I hope that you are able to change your environment to reduce the probability of having to use your Judo for anything other than as a sport.

I would hope, also, that you would be able to gain insights that go beyond the concepts of combat alone. Someone once said that, "When someone holding a shield walks into the room, I want to go bang on it." When we carry ourselves in a defense posture, there are always those who want to challenge us.

Richard Riehle

NickR
25th September 2005, 10:13
I started Shorinji Kan Ju Jitsu recently.
The style I do is well regaurded on the various forums I do as a nice modern form of Ju Jutsu, which seems to be a large proportion of Judo and other unknown Koryu Ju Jutsu arts.
I asked a question on another forum about how much of what I do I actually Judo and got this answer, which I thought would be of interest to you guys :


The throws are pretty much all judo throws, but with some concessions being made to aesthetics and the emphasis of the art on momentum; e.g. in judo, ippon seoi nage is done with a straightening of the legs to get the uke over, whereas in jitsu this is considered using strength rather than technique and is frowned upon. The jitsu tai-otoshi bears almost as much resemblance to a judo seoi-otoshi as a judo tai-otoshi, which seems to me to be largely a product of it being used for swinging haymakers; the ogoshi has been modified not to rely on the gi belt grip (while this makes it less effective as a throw IMO, it makes it a more natural progression toward harai goshi from an underhook, which is pure judo and can be seen in the nage no kata). The basic osoto-gari is pretty similar to the judo kata osoto-gari, and the advanced looks somewhat more like the way osoto-gari tends to be performed in randori. Jitsu throws tend to be modified to incorporate less strength and energy usage on the part of tori (important when facing a V) and to minimise the chances of tori going to ground (unless it's a sacrifice throw); to do this they give up some effectiveness against noncompliant opponents.

Large parts of the groundfighting are also judo-based, but this is true of most arts known for groundfighting, e.g. sambo and Brazilian jujitsu.

Some of the standing armlocks are also found in judo e.g. reverse armlock no. 1 is standing kannuki-gatame, armlock no. 2 is standing waki-gatame (or hara-gatame if you take it across the hips/abdomen), etc. These are competition-legal, but few players have got good enough with them that they can apply them consistently in contest, and consequently they're usually taught as ground locks.

That quote is from http://www.planetjitsu.com/viewtopic.php?t=13262&start=30

MarkF
25th September 2005, 16:08
An important idea in defending oneself is to avoid injuring the attacker. Professor Kano once suspended a high-ranking member of the Kodokan who injured a person while defending himself against a large gang of thugs on the streets of old Tokyo. Shihan Kano said, "A person with your skill should have been able to control the situation so no one was hurt."


That was Yamashita Yoshiaki, wasn't it?

You also made me feel young for the time being. I'm about half-way through my fifth decade. On some days, I feel a lot older, though. Good for you in sticking it out for so long. I wish you another eight decades or so.

I understand Jay's point and yours, as I believe both to be possible. On one hand, there is a brutal reality to life and on the other there is the essence or spirit of judo that cannot always be learned in a few years, or decades. what you say about aikido I agree.

Most everyone with whom I've spoken in other budo who have had a good base in judo tell me basically the same thing, that when all else fails, their judo comes out. Dave Lowry once wrote the same thing about those, compared to other early basics learned in other MA, said that it seemed to be pretty solid in that it is almost common. Donn Draeger, Robert W. Smith and others also choose the average judoka with whom to enter a bar in a not so nice part of town. Obviously, there has to be something to it.
If uke does learn something from his experience then the ideals of the founders are complete, but life doesn't always deal from the same deck.



Mark

Richard Riehle
25th September 2005, 17:36
[QUOTE=NickR]I started Shorinji Kan Ju Jitsu recently.
I asked a question on another forum about how much of what I do I actually Judo and got this answer, which I thought would be of interest to you guys :


The observations about the way one does nage waza in Judo versus some of the more recently evolved Jiu Jitsu forms reflects the way Judo is often taught and practiced in Western society. One of the most important ideas that Professor Kano introduced was that of kuzushi. Every Judo student is taught the principle of kuzushi, but that teaching often fails to examine the subtleties of that principle in practice. Another idea, almost entirely neglected, is debana.

The Kodokan Dictionary of Judo says about debana, "... an opportunity to break your opponent's balance at the instant he begins to advance or attack." A closely relate term is, "ki wo miru." This is defined as, "Perceiving and taking advantage of opportunities resulting from specific timing and conditions occurring in a match."

Before applying kuzushi there is a moment, in the action of one's opponent, that Mifune-sensei used to refer to as, roughly translated, "the right movement" for the application of a waza. The great judoka have never relied solely on the skill with which they can apply a waza, but the full set of principles on which Judo is based.

It is true that, for beginners, and even for many kuro-obi, strength is a factor in learning techniques. It is also true that, bending the knees for seioe nage, o goshi, and many other techniques is part of the form we expect in their execution. This must be understood in the context of shiai where we are competitively applying our waza against someone of equal skill and strength.

As we move ahead in our Judo training, we begin to discover the beauty of techniques such as sumi otoshi, uki otoshi, the many forms of ashi harai, and other waza that require little strength when applied correctly. Although I have difficulty executing sumi otoshi against someone of my own skill level, or higher, I find it instructive to apply it on newcomers to Judo as a way of illustrating how the higher principles go beyond the rough-and-tumble waza that we see in most shiai. The "Ju" in Judo still means "gentle."

Finally, let me say something about the comment about ippon seioe nage. Many years ago, while I was studying Aikido, I was also concurrently in Judo. My Aikido sensei, a Rokudan in both Judo and Aikido, was alone in the dojo with me so I asked him about some trouble I was having with my ippon seioe nage. We studied my form together and he came up with a unique, Aikido-like, version of ippon seioe nage that I have been using ever since. I showed this to one of my friends at Kodokan (he is godan in both judo and aikido) and he remarked on how clever it is.

The conclusion is that, for Judo, we find ourselves too often relying on the specific form of a waza rather than making it our own within the framework of the founding principles that make Judo what it is.

Richard Riehle

Aaron T
26th September 2005, 21:54
uhhhhh...I skipped most of the comments...but like Kit said..."not this again.'

the answer is NO, judo is no good for self-defense, neither is karate, ninjustu, kung fu, silat, krav maga, any koryu, aikido, Tracy's Kempo Karate (or kung fu, or whatever it is this week,) BJJ, muay thai, boxing, don't even think about freestyle wrestling, ju jutsu, juu jitsu, jiu jitsu, or any other spelling, finger-tip dim mak, street-fighting, what ever those silly law enforcement guys are talking about, or boxing.

I am telling you the only thing good for self-defense, track and field...and really oly the hammer throw. You must arm yourself with a variety of weighted hammers and develop speed throwing techniques.

Aaron (why do we indulge these posts) Fields

www.tounge-in cheek.org or net, but for sure not com

MarkF
27th September 2005, 10:08
uhhhhh...I skipped most of the comments...but like Kit said..."not this again.'


Well, as this thread is more than four years old, I 'spect those who were around then and posting on e-budo would probably skip most of it. I bumped it to the top for the newcomers who may like to weigh in on the subject, but Aaron, I think most were first taught that way and it sticks. I was asked that very question as the new kid on the block and I got, with the same meaning but different words, your answer.

To comiserate a bit with a senior, the entire repetoire eloquently put to e-paper on when do you become effective, was put well by Koizumi Gunji-sensei many decades ago when he pretty much lumped the entire subject of what serves at which time, and when does effectiveness begin, to one word: Tsukuri, as one will probably be lost if kuzushi is the starting point instead of one of three ending points (or of whatever number one believes a waza to actually be). Mifune's air throws are particularly reminiscent of Mr. Riehle's essay and of Koizumi's written explanation of twelve particular throws. He seems to have simply used the word twukuri to include, at the very least the concurrent points of entry and kuzushi, but throwing does not start at the point of touching up. With proper movement throwing may not require touching at all. Sumi otoshi is the one throw (as is Mifune's version of tai otoshi) which I have yet to take an easy, painless ukemi. I do not know why, but this has always been, perhaps because the opportunity is not there to grab the eri of the judogi on uke to help bread the fall, but I am still not sure.

There is an article reprinted concerning GK's instructions, complete with drawingss, of the twelve throws he chose to instruct on http://ejmas.com . I'll look for it after closing this wordy post.


Mark

MarkF
27th September 2005, 10:24
Here is the link to the article mentioned in the above post:


http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_koizumi_0302.htm

Another short article by G. Koizumi on "Contest Judo." Here again, is the why and what for, not to mention that which one gives up to just win instead of learning from the experience.

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcskoizumi_contestjudo.htm

Both are reprints, originally printed in the Budokwai Quarterly. http://www.budokwai.org .








Mark

Joseph Svinth
28th September 2005, 03:06
Mark --

Also check Koizumi at http://ejmas.com/jcs/2005jcs/jcsart_koizumi_0905.html . It's from 1946, and concludes: "There is no dogma with judo. Therefore a method cannot be said to be wrong or right, but by testing it against the maxim 'maximum efficiency and minimum effort' it can be said that one is better than the other. Thus judo is progressive and each one of us is a potential contributor towards its further development. No one is perfect; all are fellow pilgrims to unknown possibilities."

Richard Riehle
28th September 2005, 08:14
[QUOTE=Joseph Svinth]Mark --

"There is no dogma with judo. Therefore a method cannot be said to be wrong or right, but by testing it against the maxim 'maximum efficiency and minimum effort' it can be said that one is better than the other..." Koizumi

This is a great quotation, Joseph. Too many sensei have their way of doing waza and believe their students should do exactly the same way. More mature sensei realize that they are helping their students make each waza their own, based on what feels right for that student. We are all different in body type, physical ability, and coordination. Hane goshi was invented by a senior judoka at the Kodokan who could not bend his leg to execute a proper harai goshi. Now hane goshi is part of the canon.

I know, as my own body accelerates into antiquity, that certain techniques I could perform one way when I was younger need to be now adjusted to the changes in my ability as an arthritic senior citizen. Yet, in many ways, my Judo has improved. That may sound contradictory, and I cannot explain it. When you are in your 70's and still doing Judo, you will understand what I mean.

When I am teaching, I suggest to students that they take a careful appraisal of their opponent and adjust their grip according to the opponent's physical size and shape. For example, if I want to execute morote seioe nage on a person a little shorter, I take a grip on the collar a bit lower than it that person is taller than me. I have a lifelong deformity in my left leg due to childhood polio. It is not a noticeable deformity and I managed to hide it well enough to serve in the military, but it is just enough to alter certain techniques that I might do differently if it were not there.

Still, there are principles that hold. Little details such as how we hold our foot when doing any ashi waza can make a difference or how we bend our knees for a given set of koshi waza. Then, there are the larger, more fundamental principles mentioned by other contributors to this discussion. Kano, himself, made it clear that Judo was not about a collection of "tricks." Rather, it was a system of martial arts based on a set of principles. You may know the first two sets of the go kyo no waza really well, but if you cannot understand when to use them in the context of the principles, all you have is a bag of tricks that will be of little use when you encounter someone with greater skill or greater strength.

Richard Riehle