Weight lifting

[R. L. Anglen]

Powerlifts have been of interest to me for the past year or two. I am wondering what most of the opinion is on weight lifting.

I can remember when I first started martial arts in 1971 or 1972. Weights were eschewed, as it was claimed to make you slow.

But powerlifts and Olympic lifts definately cause fast twitch muscle fiber hypertrophy. Although the weight may move slowly, the lifter is contracting as fast and hard as he can, stressing the fast twitch glycolytic fibers. In body building, in which the repititions are higher and the lift is more controlled, a greater amount of slow twitch fiber hypertrophy is likely to occur.

Building the fast twitch fibers is, in my opinion (IMO), good for most martial arts. I also believe it makes the joints less likely to be injured, when the training is sustained over a period of months, as the ligaments (white avascular connective tissue) will also thicken and become stronger.

Many systems have a method of resistence training : Shuai Chiao has many methods ranging from belt cracking to brick twisting. Goju Ryu has a series of lifts that involve things like gripping jars.

Should modern methods of weight training, be encouraged for all martial artists.

Does anyone see negative impact on the martial artist from lifting weights regularly?

[Aaron Fields]

Weights, if used correctly, are a good addition. I lift not only for my budo/bujutsu, but also for my job. Most modern athletes lift, and they seem to do fine. :D

As you point out many types of martial activities include weight like approaches. Despite what many think, being strong (and having good technique of course) and fast is a huge advantage.

[joe yang]

My GM discourages any training that doesn't directly add to MA technique. That said, weight training adds to muscle mass, increased mass increases inertia, the secret real killer of martial arts. Go and lift, with one caveat, stretch, stretch and stretch some more. Increased bulk may slow you down a little, getting muscle bound will slow you down even more. If you are like most of us, you probably don't stretch enough as it is. If you start to stretch in earnest though, along with power lifting, you should offset any loss of speed with increased flexibility. Good luck.

[red_fists]

Hi.

A lot of the chinese Martial Arts have got their own weight training exercises.

But even when we use those exercises we still try to maintain all the aspects of the Martial Arts Training: softness, relaxation, as little muscle usage as possible.

Apart from I agree with Joe Yang.

[R. L. Anglen]

Joe,

Interesting connection between mass and velocity. I am reaching a bit here since intertia does not equal velocity, but -

since Mass X velocity2 (velocity squared) = power

And an object in motion/rest tends to stay at motion/rest until acted upon by an outside force = inertia

It would take more outside force to alter the motion/rest of a larger body at motion/rest, and once moving should take less energy to keep moving

A larger body would be harder to slow down (harder to overcome its inertia); as well as require more energy to move if the larger mass is at rest, therefore larger mass would generate substantially more power and require more power to overcome (stop from moving or cause to move)?

I am good about stretching, except I have a real hard time stretching my rhomboids (between my shoulder blades) which is an area Park Bok Nam (a former Pa Kua Kung Fu instructor of mine) use to emphasize. Do you have any good stretches for this mid back area, Joe? Or anyone else - Kent etc?

-------------------------------

R. L. Anglen
(my new signature may read : mass is class, 36 LBS of body mass added from powerlifting over the past year)



PS - Its late and what I said about physics may not make any sense. Its been almost 2 decades since I have had college physics. I hope I am not embarrassed by it in the morning.

[R. L. Anglen]

Red_fists,

I am curious about "using as little muscle as possible".

I am familiar with Tai Kyokuken in passing, I believe it is based on 8 silk brocades training. So I understand some aspect of its internal training.

I have tried to learn some internal chinese (Nei Jia) martial arts: pa kua for about a year and a half with Park Bok Nam, a little Pa Kua training with John Painter, some Tai Ji instruction, Hsing Yi from ken Fish (the only non-chinese to ever study under Jan Jung Fung (sp?). So again, I am familiar with internal arts at least in passing - and although they can be practiced "softly", I have seen all of them use very hard dynamic muscle contractions. In tai ji it is most notable with the Chen style, I believe. Hsing Yi is a dynamic system.

All of my internal martial arts instructors told me that the "internal" has nothing to do with "chi" really, as much as it has to do with "internal" body mechanics - alignment and motion begining at the core, abdomen, internal part of the body. All of the internal arts I have seen, at times use ALOT of muscle to perform the movement.

I was also told that when these arts are soft they are not soft like speghetti - there can be dynamic muscle contraction although it is soft (hard to explain), easier to understand when it is demonstrated by someone who really knows what they are doing.

That is just my understanding and could be wrong.


Although nobody ever taught me this, I believe the stronger your physical muscles ("Li" in chinese) the less muscle you have to use. You can use less "Li", and more "Yi (mind)" and "chi", when your muscles are very strong. If your muscles are very weak, then you have to put more muscle into it.

The martial artists of 100 years ago did not have to do as much physical training (calesthenics, weight training, cardio etc) because their lives were so physical. Harvesting crops, walking every where they needed to go, drawing water, splitting wood etc - provided enough exercise. Now that we live in a push button society, we need to do more physical training - since it is easier today to get mushy compared to 200 years ago. So the older martial artists could concentrate on technique and softness more. But considering most modern humans need to struggle against too much softness, perhaps we need more physical training before we even think of technique.

Just adding conjecture to stir up more ideas....


R. L. Anglen

[red_fists]

Hi.

You are correct that we use a lot of muscle, but the aim is to use minimum muscle power for maximum efficiency. :)

The "8 Brocade Silk" is known as the oldest Qi-Gong exercise recorded, we also use the Da Mo "Tendon changing classics" & "Bone Marrow/Brain cleansing" exercises.

While the internal Arts look soft they tend to develop a lot of muscle and strength. That is again where the Tao (Yin/Yang) comes in.
"You need muscle strength to be subtle, from being subtle you can move smooth and freely and thus employ great strength/force without using "excessive" muscular strength."

We achieve this by standing meditation and Qi-Gong exercises.

A stiff body can not have smooth, flowing coordinated movement with synchronised Breath.

Chen and Yang and it's derived styles can vary greatly in appearance, but the principles remain the same.
Chen intermixes fast and slow movements and also has jumps and foot stomping, which are often missing from other "newer" Systems.

As for Tai Chi looking like spaghetti, that sounds like McDojo Style, a proper stylist should move smooth, flowing but each limb should have a hard/energetic core which might only be visible to People that know what to look for.

"Steel wrapped in Cotton" or Mien Chuan(Cotton Fiest) as the Yang Tai Chi Style was formally known.

But in the long run the difference between the external and the internal Arts are simply different Path to the same Mountain Top.

Take my post with a pinch of salt as I am still fairly new to those systems myself, and still studying myself along the way.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by R. L. Anglen

Although nobody ever taught me this, I believe the stronger your physical muscles ("Li" in chinese) the less muscle you have to use. You can use less "Li", and more "Yi (mind)" and "chi", when your muscles are very strong. If your muscles are very weak, then you have to put more muscle into it.
R. L. Anglen

Your assesment there is 100% on the Button.
At my School we get lots of Students who join because they think that Tai Chi is easy and can be done by anybody.

Most of those are gone within 2 ~3 months when they realise that Tai Chi is a lot of hard work and sweat.
In the 1st 6 month of training most of our students experience quiet a thigh muscle growth.

Our Weapons Training also shows quiet a muscle growth initally.

[NoMan]

The problem is that we always think of big strong guys as being slow, but certainly Mohammed Ali wasn't very slow, even though he was a pretty good size. He trained fast as well. A strong muscle will always contract faster than a weak one on the same individual. Professional powerlifters tested had faster foot movements than bodybuilders, boxers, or martial artists. How? Power-lifting revolves around exercises such as the squat, deadlift, clean and jerk, Clean-high pull, etc. Exercises that require multiple muscle groups to act in a coordinated effort. The problem with bodybuilders, (I'm making a grossly overgeneralized statement, but it's hard not to do it...) is that they generally tend to focus on exercises that allow greater isolation for maximum individual muscular development. Outside of a very few specialized gyms, I haven't seen many "powerlifter" friendly gyms. The gyms with chalk to powder your hands up, gyms with the raised platforms, etc. Between all the exercise "gidgets", in an attempt to new markets, causes a problem. The neurophysiological adaption is strange. Your body is having to adapt to an unnatural force.

On the contrary, a lifting movement such as the clean and jerk does what a martial arts punch or kick does. It teaches you how to utilize all your available muscles into a maximum effort, or a "summarization" of all available forces. The transference isn't just into a sports-specific movement, this physiological crossover occurs into all movements.

[R. L. Anglen]

Robert,
"Delivered by Western Union".... that cracks me up, I guess that is why they call it telegraphing a punch. See, because Western Union use to be a telegraph office....its kind of a play on words......okay well I guess you had to be there. During the few months I trained with Greg Lindquist (one of Oyata's students) I remember doing numerous heavy bokken strikes as a prelude to each class.

No Man, you are absolutely right about powerlifting friendly gyms. I have some very serious hard core lifting friends, and I am a wannabe - but it is very difficult finding gyms that let a person lift really hard with grunts and screams and running outside to vomit after squats. Most are neon, spandex, designer water bottle, Tae Bo, pink hand weights places. Luckily the gym I train at has a mix of serious guys, as well as the typical fitness people. One of the owners has a world record (in the organization he belongs to) in the bench press.

red_fists - Standing at the stake, stationary meditation was surprisingly painful to me. My shoulders and legs burned like red hot pokers. This did abate after several months, in part due to conditioning and in part due to relaxation. Again while my powerlifts are only "okay", part of whatever success I have had is due to relaxation oddly enough. Relaxing while lifting helps me reduce antagonistic muscle tension - i.e bicep contraction while doing pressing movements and vice versa. I guess this is partly an example of relaxing but not like speghetti.

[Aaron Fields]

Noman exactly,

Carl Lewis lifts weights and he is fast, etc etc. R.L you also hit the nail on the head, there are a lot of murky popular ideas out there about physics.


I am confused as to what makes budo folks think there physical pastime is so much different than all the others? If you lift correctly, and use activity specific excercises there is no problem. Stretching, body weight excerise, weights, and practice make for a better practioner.

[R. L. Anglen]

Noman, you mention that bodybuilders tend to do isolation exercises for greater individual muscle development. I agree with you on this. Even some of the powerlifts like the becn press reduce whole body power movement. What I mean is this - while a heavy benc press will cause contractions of just about all muscles including abdominal and latissimus, the movement is isolated to the glenohumeral joint (shoulder blade). The waist, although the abdominal muscles contract, does not move appreciably. But in martial arts, moving all the joints in synchrony is what creates striking/throwing power - starting with the calves, moving up the legs, turning of the waist etc. I was wondering the other day if lifting might "undo" some of the progress I have made over the years in creating whole body movement?

Robert, you mention the muscularity and strength of Uehara. I have also heard Ueshiba as a younger man was extremely large and muscular. I have also heard that one of his favorite unbalacing techniques when he was younger was an upper cut.

[NoMan]

Originally posted by R. L. Anglen
Noman, you mention that bodybuilders tend to do isolation exercises for greater individual muscle development. I agree with you on this. Even some of the powerlifts like the becn press reduce whole body power movement. What I mean is this - while a heavy benc press will cause contractions of just about all muscles including abdominal and latissimus, the movement is isolated to the glenohumeral joint (shoulder blade). The waist, although the abdominal muscles contract, does not move appreciably. But in martial arts, moving all the joints in synchrony is what creates striking/throwing power - starting with the calves, moving up the legs, turning of the waist etc. I was wondering the other day if lifting might "undo" some of the progress I have made over the years in creating whole body movement?

What you seem to be talking about is what we call SAID, or Specific Adaption by Imposed Demands. Fancy way of saying your muscles become however you train them. This creates a problem that the old Russians had to deal with in their training scheming a lot. There are seven parts to any movement, and training on all seven of them is almost impossible.

So, the Russians developed some tests. What is the best way to train for a long period of time? (Taken from Dr. Yuri Verkoshansky)

http://www.issatrainer.com/members/CFT_Course/images/figure6_1.jpg

The groups were as follows:

[list=1]
plyometrics-weight training-Depth Jumps
plyometrics-weight training-Weight training
plyometrics-plyometrics-plyometrics
complexes-complexes-complexes
[/list=1]

*Note: A complex is a system of training composed of plyometrics and weight training

The system that works best here is the one using a variety of training implements to maximize gains. This is periodization. After you develop a strong foundation for your chest, here's an example of how you can maximize the transference into sports-specific movements.

5 Explosive reps with 85% in the Bench Press
5 depth-jump push-ups from 16 inches, (between two benches)
Bounding in a wheel-barrow position (partner-assisted) for 10 yards
5 throws with a versaball, (push-throwing the ball using your chest to a partner)
5 overhead passes with a versaball

That's a complex. If you try that, you'll notice it is really demanding both glycolytic and anaerobic. It also forces a wide variety of adaptions to take place. I recommend that for a mesocycle period of about six weeks. You can also try incorporating that to a 1 in three workout scheme, i.e. one out of your three workouts for a given body segment is composed of a complex.

[red_fists]

Hi R.L.


Originally posted by R. L. Anglen
red_fists - Standing at the stake, stationary meditation was surprisingly painful to me. My shoulders and legs burned like red hot pokers. This did abate after several months, in part due to conditioning and in part due to relaxation. Again while my powerlifts are only "okay", part of whatever success I have had is due to relaxation oddly enough. Relaxing while lifting helps me reduce antagonistic muscle tension - i.e bicep contraction while doing pressing movements and vice versa. I guess this is partly an example of relaxing but not like speghetti.

That burning sensation is fairly often experienced, and is nothing harmful.
A lot of People also get a feeling of chaffing for Days like from a sunburn,
this can be felt at different sections of the Body.

Relaxation is one of the most misunderstood concepts in the Internal Arts, yes, we relax(release tension) the muscles, but we don't go limb.

Once you reached this state of relaxation it opens up a new level of what you can do with your Body and this will manifest itself in everything you do.

My Sijo doesn't like People training in the Gym as it often tends to shorten the muscles and with that comes a loss of flexibility. I think Bruce Lee was the Martial Artist to lift weights as such.

In our style we also use oversized Weapons or heavier Weapons to build muscular strength.
One Exercise we have for "Dragon Claw" is as follows:
Take 2 Steel Balls, (6cm Dia, 750gm) hold/balance each gently in your hand while performing your Forms. Now most of our open Hand Forms run for about 8~20 minutes and that results.

[R. L. Anglen]

Interesting. John Painter recommended using Pa Kua balls. The old/ancient ones were made of wood or metal. He had us get air filled childrens play balls and fill them with water. Then a person was supposed to walk the circle holding the balls in various postures (heaven palm, fire palm etc) and while changing postures.

The goal was not muscle strengthening. It was to use the weight and try and develop "connectivity" - a live feeling of connection from your feet to your hands - without any breaks in the chain. You moved and lifted the balls with your legs and whole body, and not just your arms. The weight of the balls was supposed to be channelled/grounded through your feet, much like lightening travels through a lightening rod to the ground. This was to help develop a kinetic chain of movement for blocking, striking and Chin na that was a whole body movement.

My balls weighed about 20 LBS. I had big balls.:D

[R. L. Anglen]

It seems we are in favor of bigger and stronger, but as I mentally review most UFC, Extreme fighting, NHB (no holds barred) events - often the little guy wins.

Keith Hackney against the 400+ LB sumo wrestler (some argue he wasn't a REAL sumo wrestler but he WAS a real big guy - over 400 LBS and could double hand slam a basketball behind his head). Gracie versus Kimo. And many others. Often a guy who is outweighed by over a hundred pounds wins.


????

Royce Gracie did follow a rigid weight training schedule from what I understand , though.

[red_fists]

Hi R.L.

Nice to hear that some People still teach the old traditional methods.
:cool:

I think modern day weight training can be a good substitute for people that don't learn the old methods. ;)

FYI, our Sijo has contact to a craftsman that makes our Weapons and other trainings gear on order.

[joe yang]

R.L. Anglen, There is a great stretch for the area you noted. Hold a broomstick in both hands, parallel to the floor, hands shoulder width apart. Keep your arms locked. Raise your hands over and behind your head. Lower the broomstick behind your head,
(bend your arms now) onto your shoulders, return it over your head to your waist. Repeat this three times. Now reduce the distance between your hands by one hand width. Continue the repititions, moving your hands closer, till you can't raise your arms up and over your head without bending your elbows. Not that I do this nearly as often as I should.

[NoMan]

Originally posted by R. L. Anglen
It seems we are in favor of bigger and stronger, but as I mentally review most UFC, Extreme fighting, NHB (no holds barred) events - often the little guy wins.

Keith Hackney against the 400+ LB sumo wrestler (some argue he wasn't a REAL sumo wrestler but he WAS a real big guy - over 400 LBS and could double hand slam a basketball behind his head). Gracie versus Kimo. And many others. Often a guy who is outweighed by over a hundred pounds wins.


????

Royce Gracie did follow a rigid weight training schedule from what I understand , though.

This is true, but what about guys like Tank Abbot? No martial arts skill, no endurance, no real speed, just able to bench press 600 lbs. and a punch like a 15-ton hammer. It is true, skill does beat strength, but if we put a 300 lbs. Royce Gracie versus a 180 lbs. Royce Gracie, who'd win? Gracie's training, weights and aerobically, revolve around endurance. He fights like a python. He slowly drains down the energy of his opponent until they make mistakes, then he capitalizes on it. Let's not forget that other prominent UFC champions like Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn were no small fries.

[R. L. Anglen]

I believe that Ken Shamrock was not all that big. I think he was only about a deuce and a qaurter. However he probably had only about 7% body fat , and being that ripped makes a person look bigger and more muscular. Dan Severn also was only about 225 LBS I think. I may be wrong, its been awhile since I have watched a UFC.

Tank on the other hand was I think 265, and Paul the polar bear Varelens was 300-315 LBS.