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View Full Version : Ju Jutsu show and tell....



Andrew Craig
27th September 2001, 10:24
I thought it would be interesting to have a thread where people could tell everyone about the particular style(s) of Ju Jutsu they practise. I would be really interested to hear a short synopsis of what your style is about, without giving away too many secrets
:look:

So to get the ball rolling I will go first.

I practise a modern style called Atemi Jutsu. My instructor told me that the origins are simply that after people trained in Judo, Karate and Aikido separately, Atemi Jutsu was seen as the integration of the other arts. I believe the purpose was to show how with a little adaptation the parent arts could be used together more effectively in self-defence. I know of at least 3 independent Atemi Jutsu groups in the Leeds area of the UK where I train. I would be especially interested to hear of any other similar composite systems elsewhere.

The basic principle of our system is to overcome an opponent by attacking vital points. This is done in such a way that if it does not directly stop the opponent you have made safe and the opponent is unbalanced. You are in a position to carry on to a throw or joint attack or other such technique.

Overall the system contains many of the methods of the parent systems. However the techniques are often slightly modified to fit our aims. To give one example, the Judo throw Seionage. Usually if you assume a right-handed throw, you take hold of Ukie's left lapel. We grab the right, which makes it easier to get into the correct position for the throw, and as a result the throw feels more comfortable and stronger for Tori (I believe this variation is illegal in Judo competition, but please correct me if I am wrong). The rest of the technique from unbalancing and entering, to the actual throw remains the same.

So over to you...

I would be particularly interested in hearing from Koryu practicioners, especially in the UK.

Best

(edited to get the silly smilie working properly)

tommysella
27th September 2001, 11:33
Andrew Craig wrote:

Overall the system contains many of the methods of the parent systems. However the techniques are often slightly modified to fit our aims. To give one example, the Judo throw Seionage. Usually if you assume a right-handed throw, you take hold of Ukie's left lapel. We grab the right, which makes it easier to get into the correct position for the throw, and as a result the throw feels more comfortable and stronger for Tori (I believe this variation is illegal in Judo competition, but please correct me if I am wrong). The rest of the technique from unbalancing and entering, to the actual throw remains the same.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think there are any other style where you can find so many variations on Seoi-nage as in Judo. The variation where Tori take hold of Ukes right lapel is legal in competition and also common. In Judo we call it Eri-seoi-nage...

The variation one can do are the following:

Ippon-seoi-nage (the normal one)
Morote-seoi-nage (the normal one)
Eri-seoi-nage
seoi-nage (one arm variation)
Seoi-nage (normal gripping but the throw is executed to the other side)
Ippon-seoi-nage ((normal gripping but the throw is executed to the other side)

Regards,
Tommy Selggren
Gävle Judo Club

Andrew Craig
27th September 2001, 12:27
Hi Tommy,

Thanks for your reply and clarification.

Could you possibly describe "Seoi-nage (normal gripping but the throw is executed to the other side)" that you mentioned in a little more detail.

I am probably being obtuse, but I can't quite visualise what you describe with regard to executing the throw to the other side.

Best

Stevo
27th September 2001, 16:03
Hi guys,

Are the variations on ippon seoi nage you're referring to soto (outside) seio nage and uchi (inside) seoi nage? Uchi seoi nage is the normal throw ie, ippon seoi nage. Your head is postioned near your attacker's bicep. In soto seoi nage the attacker's arm is over your opposite shoulder, ie your head is on the "outside" of their arm, near the tricep. We sometimes use it against high thrusting attacks, eg attempted single-handed straight-arm strangle or a high punch.

Back to the topic of the post:

You mentioned that Atemi Jutsu is a derivative of Judo, Aikido and Karate. Ju jutsu was the forerunner of Judo and Aikido, and also gave rise to several Japanese styles of karate.

I study Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Ju Jutsu as taught by Shihan Jan de Jong. The Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu originated around the mid 14th century. It is characterised by a very even balance of locks, throws and strikes. The style includes strangles, sacrifice techniques and weaponry. It resembles a very "hard" style of aikido or a "soft' style of Goju Ryu, and is somewhat similar to Wado Ryu.

It differs markedly from judo, being a combative style rather than a sportive one. For instance, there is very little reliance on actually gripping the clothing to effect a throw. In earlier times the style was classified as "kumi uchi". During the 1500's it was referred to as "kenden kumiuchi". The body movements, unbalancing, and techniques were designed for a multiple attacker environment. This is reflected in the training methods.

Tsutsumi developed a very effective method for training the reflexes. This reflex training is a trademark of the style. Tsutsumi also made use of yoko kaiten ukemi (sideways rolling fall). These are both peculiar to Tsutsumi Ryu. Neither the reflex training nor the sideways roll were taught outside of the school before Shihan de Jong's National and European seminars.
:smilejapa

Andrew Craig
27th September 2001, 16:34
Thanks for the reply Stevo!

I really was being dense about the description of the throw. What you describe makes perfect sense. :toast:

Your description of Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Ju Jutsu was really interesting. I have heard the term "Kumi Uchi" you used before, describing grappling when wearing armour. Is this the correct usage within Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu? If this is the case I wonder do you use throwing techniques such as hip throws or shoulder throws against an armoured opponent? What if any modifications would be needed to techniques such as Seionage or Koshinage? I imagine the added bulk (volume rather than mass) of armour would make similar throws very awkward to perform.

Best

Graham Wild
27th September 2001, 18:51
Andrew I would suggest looking in Jigoro Kano's Kodokan Judo as he demonstrates some Kito Ryu (I think it's Kito) Kata which where for kumi uchi. Other than that there is not much else, and the techniques you mentioned are not that different as 'bulk' does not matter as they are even part of Kimarite of Sumo and they have no problem preforming the techniques.
Also in addition there is Ryote Seoi Nage where, for example, you shoulder throw from a Shomen Uchi with a Sword taking both arms to throw. Using morote positioning from judo's point of view or for Stevo it would be ippon or morote.
Stevo in our kenjutsu school we have a sideways roll where we roll like a diagonal roll but sideways and across the shoulders, also the side ways roll your referring to is how we would do a backwards roll with a sword in our obi. So you fall back onto your right side then over your left shoulder and your sword never touches the ground. I believe some other sword styles may utilise this but just refer to it as ushiro kaiten ukemi.
PS Stevo you may be wondering how I know this stuff well look over there <== at the side bar. I do Aikido at Jan De Jong's with Sensei Han's as well as Shinto Seishin Ryu. :)

Neil Hawkins
28th September 2001, 02:23
Andrew

I too am from the Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu. We no longer teach actual grappling in armour, but you can definitely see the techniques that were used for that purpose. They lend themselves to any restrictive clothing, like a suit, or the body armour that the Police or Military special units wear.

As for seoinage and ogoshi, they are fairly recent additions to our curriculumn from what I can tell. Supposedly one of our instructors, Maseo Tsutsumi, was involved quite heavily with Kano during the development of Judo and many of the more dynamic throws were brought back from that exchange.

Other techniques were added when De Jong Sensei trained with Mochizuki Sensei of Yoseikan Aiki Budo. (In fact Graham, that is where all of the Aikido and some of the weapons work we teach comes from.)

Dynamic throws developed during the late 1600's and 1700's, armour was no long worn and the various schools had more time to experiment. I personally believe that small quick movements like ukigoshi and some of the foot or leg takedowns are the oldest, gradually followed by the bigger hip throws and then shoulder and sacrifice techniques.

I have nothing really to base this on other than observation and application so I would welcome anyone elses comments.

Regards

Neil

tommysella
28th September 2001, 06:25
Andrew Craig wrote:

Could you possibly describe "Seoi-nage (normal gripping but the throw is executed to the other side)" that you mentioned in a little more detail.
--------------------------------------

Hard to describe throws by text but I will give it a try.

Holding the normal right grip (right hand hold the lapel and the left hold Ukes sleeve) you just turn to the right and perform the throw as if you have had a left throw gripping...As I said...hard to describe by just text...

Hope this help...

Tommy

Graham Wild
28th September 2001, 08:00
That is interesting Neil. Could you give me some additional information on which techniques are believed to be 'recent additions' to Tsutsumi as I can see where part of the syllabus may have been influenced by judo as well as Shihan's training with Mochizuki Sensei, because I was told that some of the nage waza we do are from judo, that is they where created by judoka. For example hane goshi was developed out of a failed uki goshi (which you suggest is an old koshi waza and I would agree). It would be interesting to see a time line of when types of waza would have been added with the changes happening in Japan.
I don't know about seio nage and ogoshi being brought back from judo. Koshi waza are part of aikijutsu and that is where Aikido's koshi waza are from and some of them don't look like any judo koshi waza for example our koshi gaeshi (which I think would have come from Shihan's time with Mochizuki Sensei) looks nothing like the koshi waza of judo and is the basic koshi nage of 'mainstream' Aikido. So I think Tsutsumi may have already had these and similar techniques prior to Maseo Tsutsumi involvement with Professor Kano. If I am wrong then feel free to correct me. These techniques (ryote seoi nage and koshi gaeshi) are also used as tachi tori in Aikido, which would suggest that they have been around prior to the late 1800's when you where aloud to carry your sword.
I would agree about the sutemi waza, definitely not the best place to be on a battlefield so they would not have bean battlefield techniques, but these too are also used in sumo so I will do a bit of research and see if I can find anything on the history of sumo waza.

tommysella
28th September 2001, 08:23
Neil wrote:

As for seoinage and ogoshi, they are fairly recent additions to our curriculumn from what I can tell. Supposedly one of our instructors, Maseo Tsutsumi, was involved quite heavily with Kano during the development of Judo and many of the more dynamic throws were brought back from that exchange.
------------------------------

I belive seoi-nage is an rather old throw. It is one of the techniques of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, and that mean that it is at least from the beginning of 1800.

In Kito-ryu there is seoi-otoshi which is simular to seoi-nage. This means that seoi-nage-looking techniques can be even older...

By the way, I have a list of the nage waza of judo on my home page, where I have listed also in what other style (koryu) you can find the throw. Anyone is welcome to contribute...

Tommy

tommysella
28th September 2001, 08:26
Forgot the URL:

nage-waza-page is:
http://home.astrakan.hig.se/tommy/judo/nagewaza.html

Startpage is:
http://home.astrakan.hig.se/tommy/judo/index.html

Tommy

Graham Wild
28th September 2001, 08:26
Thanks Tommy.

Graham Wild
28th September 2001, 08:35
I take it these are where the Kodokan have taken their waza from, as I am sure other styles/schools would have similar or the same waza?

Jay Bell
28th September 2001, 09:20
Hi Graham,

I can only really speak on Hiza Garuma. This was the technique from Kukishin ryu that Takamatsu sensei taught while guest instructing at the Kodokan, though Takamatsu sensei wasn't a part of the Kodokan, he was Soke of Kukishin ryu.

MarkF
28th September 2001, 10:51
Oh, boy, Jay, you just may have given the green flag to a debate over the existence of hiza guruma and from where it came.:)

Not me.;)

Mark

Neil Hawkins
29th September 2001, 03:26
Graham,

It's all supposition at the moment, though I am researching the original Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu curriculumn, (A very difficult task based on the lack of documents and my lack of Japanese!) I don't want to go too much into that yet.

I have the advantage of not being a regular visitor to Perth these days and so can quickly see changes. There have been quite a few in the last ten years, not new techniques so much, but different ways of doing the old ones. There has definitely been a absorbtion of Silat into some of the sabaki and ways of doing things. Also there are distinct stylistic differences in the ways that the various instructors perform and teach the techniques, the principle are still the same, but it is obvious who studies under say Hymas Sensei, or Palmer Sensei.

These things are small and probably not obvious to those that are constantly in Perth. From what I can determine the original Tsutsumi curriculumn was purely kata with a very strong weapons component. Now this differs from the way the De Jong Sensei was taught.

I think randori was brought back from the Judo exchange, along with many of the throws done with the hip and shoulder. I have been told that many of the foot and leg sweeps are traditional Tsutsumi, but these were common in many koryu styles.

When Kano assembled all of the great Jujutsu Masters, I feel that much was exchanged, discarded or improved upon and many of the styles involved went away with more than they came with. Certainly Tsutsumi adopted the belt ranking system very quickly, as by the very early 1900's Tsutsumi practicioners, such as the Saito's and Higashi in America, were credited with high Dan rankings.

Though on belts, we have the purple and black and white belts, for senior students, which is not terribly common in other styles. In fact Black and White is almost exclusively used for female black belts in many schools. Some have suggested that perhaps Tsutsumi provided the idea for Mon and Dan ranking, but I have not found anything to sustantiate this.

The sutemi waza that we do is much more comprehensive than that in other schools, however Yoseikan Aiki Budo do all of ours and more besides. I have to think that an exchange occurred when De Jong Sensei was in Japan, but in which direction of how much I am not sure. I also think that the softer Aiki way that we apply some techniques is very reminiscient of Yoseikan. Though again some of this could well have existed before, I doubt that we will ever know the full picture.

Regards

Neil

Graham Wild
29th September 2001, 07:51
From what I have read and discussed with other Yoseikan Practitioners in the US they do all of the sutemi waza from judo and a few of ours. I don't think they do any of the shime sutemi as well as a few others. But I could be wrong.
From my readings dan rankings where developed by Kano and where awarded when he felt they deserved it. While the fixed curriculum came from Funakoshi time with Kano and there appears to be the karate influence in the striking and blocking of Tsutsumi. Also the Mon grades where developed by the school in 1978 and this is why I have not seen them any where else.
The next time you come down you should notice the aikido influence, which has increased in the last year or so.
I never knew Higashi did Tsutsumi, I will have to wait until I can afford his books, but he has his own system Kokushi Ryu which incorporates a jujutsu system (I did not what until now) and Tomiki Aikdo. If any one has additional info on this then I would love more, or if I need to be corrected please do.

Edited to fix spelling mistakes

Fredrik Blom
1st October 2001, 13:04
As I understand it from speaking with deJong shihan, a lot of the sutemi waza comes from his time with Mochizuke, and Mochizuke in turn have them from an older style of jujutsu (with a name I can not remember right now) that he practised before (or parallell with) aikido and judo. (All from memory, so please go easy on me).

Also, those of You in Perth, please give my best to deJong shihan, Margaret, Maggie, Rob, John, Paul, Adrian, and all of the other I met there last october... That would be highly appreciated

Regards,
Fredrik Blom

Stevo
1st October 2001, 13:59
My pleasure, Frederick, will do.

Stevo
6th October 2001, 16:43
Hi all,

I asked Shihan de Jong about the origins of the sutemi waza in our curriculum. He advised that Tsutsumi, Mochizuki and Sanjuro all used sutemiwaza. There are a fair few common to most ju jutsu schools eg tomoe nage, ude domoe nage, etc. The throws from Tsutsumi include things like exterior long arm hanging. The throws that came from judo include inside armpit pushing.

The curriculum has changed slightly over the years. Previously a lot of the sacrifice techniques were taught as a fully committed sacrifice. Nowadays many of them are taught as standing techniques, with the option of sacrficing if need be. This has increased the quallity of the technique, because students have to rely on timing and unbalancing rather than just sheer power or weight.

Of course, it's good self defence to stay on your feet rather than sacrifice, especially in a multiple attacker situation. Even so, there are times when sacrifice techniques are the most efficient, effective, and appropriate way of settling an altercation.

Stevo
6th October 2001, 16:49
Fredrik,

Jan sends his regards and is looking forward to seeing you early next year!
:wave:

Graham Wild
7th October 2001, 11:48
I can never remember the sutemi waza in English, so is the inside armpit pushing Waki Tori (inside armpit pushing would be something like Uchi Waki Oshi Sutemi and I have not heard of that)? I will have more to post when I can remember which one it is.

Stevo
7th October 2001, 12:55
Inisde armpit pushing = uchi hazuoshi nage.

Graham Wild
7th October 2001, 16:53
I have not seen that in the judo syllabus. All I think I was trying to get across is that a lot of the sutemi waza have not come from judo or yoseikan so they have to be Tsutsumi. How many are there in the jujutsu syllabus, I count 17 in the Aikido syllabus up to ikkyu and I don't know what the dan grades have in them? I know in the jujutsu grading you have to demonstrate 20 for a dan grading (I can't locate my Jan De Jong book at this particular time) but that means I am short a few. Judo has 19 see the link below for a list and only about 4 or 5 appear in the Aikido syllabus.

http://www.judoinfo.com/wazalist.htm