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John Lindsey
14th July 2000, 06:29
I was wondering how many people (in a general sense) training in iaido, kenjutsu, etc JUST do this art, and how many augment it with unarmed training of some kind. Think about this question for a little while, and let me know. Also think about it in terms of koryu/gendai :).

Adam Young
14th July 2000, 06:53
I do not train in any form of separate unarmed training (modern or koryu).

My school is primarily based on the sword, but also teaches a number of other weapons. There is unarmed grappling, but it is subsidiary to the main study of swordsmanship, and is only learned after the weapons forms are (relatively) deeply ingrained.

The reason why I don't train separately in unarmed combat (koryu or modern) is that I am wary about putting too many things on my plate. Really, I shouldn't even be doing kendo, at least until I am sufficiently passable in the forms of my koryu. It would be interesting to study an unarmed system, but it just isn't in the cards.

So much to learn, so little time...

Adam Young

ghp
14th July 2000, 07:07
John,

I've trained exclusively in sword since 1982/3. Previous to that, I trained in empty hand -- even trained in iaido and karate/jujutsu simultaneously. However, the sword work was always a different class.

Oops -- forgot to say that from 1979-1994 I was involved in some other type of military arts: some fire-n-maneuver; M-16; M-203; .45 ACP; M-3 grease gun; M-2 (cal .50); and M-60 -- but most of my "mid-management position" centered on logistics, strategy, planning, and other staff-type work (only did line-infantry stuff from 79-85). Anyway, I'm sure you weren't talking about that type of martial arts training ... were you? :D

Regards,
Guy

Tim Atkinson
14th July 2000, 07:16
I train in a family style of kenjutsu, which is not strictly a koryu but the roots of the school can be traced too far back to make it gendai.

I have resently started Shinto Muso Ryu Jo, as well as gendai naginata ('cos there is no koryu naginata anywhere that I am aware of).

As you see my training is mostly weapons, but the kenjutsu ryu has unarmed defences against tachi, kodachi and tanto. Shurikenjutsu, hanbo, jutte and tessen form training at higher levels.

I guess I started this Jo ryu due to the affiliated weapon ryu at the higher levels (years, light yaers from now for me) and the fact that the jo is such a simple piece of kit. It lends itself to a lot of house hold items, broom, pool cue etc.

I train in naginata to gain better understanding of the difference in mai, and how to get inside the naginata range.
As a kid (some may say that I still am at 28!) I trained in Judo, Gojo Ryu Karate, Jujutsu and Tai kwondo,but not to any real level.

I then found Iaido and have been with weapon systems every sence. I have had a look at Arnis and the filipino knife work, very, very, very fast! I would run before I thought I could take on a guy with their skills with a knife.

Which is probably where my training lets me down. Japanese knife work is very different from Philipino.

I am still in the army and we get no unarmed training anymore and our weapon is so short we dont get bayonet training either.

Hope this sheds some light.

[Edited by Tim Atkinson on 07-14-2000 at 01:22 AM]

ghp
14th July 2000, 07:32
('cos there is no koryu naginata anywhere that I am aware of)

Toda-ha Buko Ryu Naginatajutsu is one of others. Meik and Dianne Skoss both are rated in this koryu. Other examples of koryu naginatajutsu are around, I'm sure. But the only other example I can think of are some waza from Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Bujutsu (Otake sensei's group).

I think that Mr. Ellis Amdur also has extensive knowledge in koryu naginatajutsu -- but I'm not sure which ryu-ha.

I'll post a photo later of Carl McClafferty being taught some naginata waza by Otake sensei (will have to wait till next Monday, though).

This will take you to the Koryu Books site -- a page listing about 8 koryu naginata systems: http://koryu.com/guide/naginata.html

[Tim, after re-reading your original post I see that your statement may also be interpreted as "I know of no place nearby where koryu naginata is taught." -- Sorry if I misunderstood.]

Regards,
Guy

[Edited by ghp on 07-14-2000 at 01:47 AM]

Tim Atkinson
14th July 2000, 07:43
Guy,

I was talking about my own back yard. I do know of a Jutsu Ryu in Sydney taht has it as part of the ryu teachings but the size of the dojo restricts them to yari/sojutsu due to the more lineal waza.

ghp
14th July 2000, 07:50
Tim,

Looks like we're playing "real-time tag." I just edited my post. Looks like my reinterpretation was correct.

We'll have to meet someday!

Regards (and goodnight!),
Guy

hyaku
14th July 2000, 16:35
I trained in Karate and Ju-jutsu for many years to a fairly high degree. Somehow they never really appealed to me. They seemed to be related so much with self defence. Something I seem to be quite capable of before learning any methods are arts. Also there always seemed to be something of a chauvanistic attitude about it.

"I play soccer." "Oh really I do Karate" was never really a conversation puller. However hard you tried to convince people otherwise, they always seemed to thing that were trying to prove something.

Hyakutake Colin

Gil Gillespie
14th July 2000, 17:11
Through my aikido training I began to practice iaido. I was given an iai-to by a gentleman in Japan and made to promise that I would train in iai upon returning to the states. My sensei is a long time sword guy so we began iaido practice. At this time both were gendai.

About 3 years ago we entered into formal affiliation with MJERI through Shimabukuro Sensei in San Diego and Carl Long Sensei from PA. This art is most definitely koryu, as is the Shindo Muso Ryu jyodo we do intermittently in aikido.

Even prior to the 2 volume koryu thread on e-budo I was made aware that in our koryu training we are preserving old teachings and techniques as a part of the traditional side of our training.

Hans Andersen
14th July 2000, 18:30
--quote--
"I play soccer." "Oh really I do Karate" was never really a conversation puller. However hard you tried to convince people otherwise, they always seemed to thing that were trying to prove something.
--unquote--


Hmm, maybe that's why I never studied any sort of martial art until college.

Sword techniques, on the other hand, don't carry that same "attitude", perhaps because they're completely impractical as modes of "self defense". If someone threatens you, it's just not very realistic to whip out a bokken/shinken/epee/whatever and have at the knave. :-) Rather, sword arts seem to me to be the sort of thing that you study for their own sake, not because you're motivated by practical concerns (like self defense.) And a bokken or shinai is _quite_ the conversation starter, especially when you carry them into a grocery store because you got thirsty while walking to Kendo practice.

Oh, and to answer the question at hand, I also study a few Aikido jo katas along with Kendo (and soon, iaido). And I probably couldn't study an unarmed art even if I wanted to - there's just not enough time in the week.

Happy Friday,
-Hans Christian Andersen

Daniel Pokorny
14th July 2000, 19:09
Originally posted by Hans Andersen
--quote--
"I play soccer." "Oh really I do Karate" was never really a conversation puller. However hard you tried to convince people otherwise, they always seemed to thing that were trying to prove something.
--unquote--


Hmm, maybe that's why I never studied any sort of martial art until college.

Sword techniques, on the other hand, don't carry that same "attitude", perhaps because they're completely impractical as modes of "self defense". If someone threatens you, it's just not very realistic to whip out a bokken/shinken/epee/whatever and have at the knave. :-) Rather, sword arts seem to me to be the sort of thing that you study for their own sake, not because you're motivated by practical concerns (like self defense.) And a bokken or shinai is _quite_ the conversation starter, especially when you carry them into a grocery store because you got thirsty while walking to Kendo practice.

Oh, and to answer the question at hand, I also study a few Aikido jo katas along with Kendo (and soon, iaido). And I probably couldn't study an unarmed art even if I wanted to - there's just not enough time in the week.

Happy Friday,
-Hans Christian Andersen

Hans,

I don't know if "Sword techniques, on the other hand, don't carry that same "attitude", perhaps because they're completely impractical as modes of "self defense" " is really true, for me anyway.

I practice with Gil in MJERI and also Aikido. When I have a problem learning a technique in Aikido, (which happens a lot more than I care to admit), sensei grabs a bokken and demos the technique again. The light then comes on. Also, for me, the timing and distance training I'm doing in sword seems to transcend as well.

I will surely agree that it's insane and impractical to even consider using a sword to defend yourself today, (except for perhaps in the event of a home invasion) but the techniques of sword teach me much more than how to swing the sword.

Just another view.
Regards,

Daniel C. Pokorny

Hans Andersen
14th July 2000, 19:53
Whoops, it's clarification time. (long)

--quote--
but the techniques of sword teach me much more than how to swing the sword.
--unquote--

Agreed. However, here's what I meant by "attitude", (which may or may not be the same thing that Hyakutake Colin was talking about)

When people who haven't taken _any_ sort of martial art are told that someone takes karate, the first thing that they think of is "Wow, so you know how to beat people up?" At least that's the stereotype. I'd guess that most individuals who take karate (or other unarmed arts) do so for the excercise, or for the discipline, or for the self defense aspects, or for one of a great variety of reasons - and NOT because they want to "beat people up". But the stereotype propagated by the media, by action movies, by pop culture in general, is that karate is for beating people up.

So when "bob" learns that "fred" trains in Karate, "bob" wonders why "fred" would feel the need to learn how to beat people up, even though "fred" isn't interested in anything of the sort. "bob thinks "fred" has some sort of attitude problem, or is trying to prove something to someone.

On the other hand, when "bob" learns that "fred" studies sword arts, there's no ingrained social reaction, there's no stereotype that "bob" can automatically default to - after all, no-one carries a sword around nowadays, and media portrayals of people with swords are always so over-the-top (Highlanger anyone?) that any sensible individual has has trouble applying the stereotype to real life. So "fred"'s explainations of what, how, and why are much more likely to be taken at face value.

Hmm, that's enough pop psychobabble for one post. But I hope you see what I mean.

hyaku
14th July 2000, 23:34
Agreed. However, here's what I meant by "attitude", (which may or may not be the same thing that Hyakutake Colin was talking about)

Yes that's what I meant. Well put Mr Anderson


Hyakutake Colin

Daniel Pokorny
17th July 2000, 13:16
Originally posted by Hans Andersen

On the other hand, when "bob" learns that "fred" studies sword arts, there's no ingrained social reaction, there's no stereotype that "bob" can automatically default to - after all, no-one carries a sword around nowadays, and media portrayals of people with swords are always so over-the-top (Highlanger anyone?) that any sensible individual has has trouble applying the stereotype to real life. So "fred"'s explainations of what, how, and why are much more likely to be taken at face value.

Hmm, that's enough pop psychobabble for one post. But I hope you see what I mean. [/B]

Hans,

I do see what you mean now, my simple little brain (or whats left of it) didn't grasp your concept before. You are certainly correct in the sterotype analogy. I do occasionally get the "there can be only one" comment from people when discussing sword.... ah, well, what are you going to do? I keep running out of places to hide the bodies.... he-he-he!!

"The more you complain, the longer God makes you live!"

Regards,
Daniel Pokorny

Gordon Smith
17th July 2000, 18:50
Originally posted by Hans Andersen
When people who haven't taken _any_ sort of martial art are told that someone takes karate, the first thing that they think of is "Wow, so you know how to beat people up?" At least that's the stereotype

I know the feeling. It's frustrating when people hear that you have a black belt, and suddenly they start to playpunch at you, taunting, "Oh, can't you stop me?"

The response of, "Yes, do you want me to break an arm?" usually stops that sort of silliness...

I also tend to answer the stereotype with, "No, I know how not to beat them up".

Anyway, back to the thread while I'm up for air...

I study MSR Iai, I've been kind of on my own the last month or two as my instructor had to step back from the class due to job considerations, and the senior student shifted the time to when I couldn't attend.

I also study Shotokan Karate, and have been gaining exposure to SMR Jodo. I'd love to learn more, but next month when I move to Virginia, I don't think I'll be able to make the drive on a more than once a month basis (Which isn't, in my book, enough to call oneself a student, particularly at my sub-novice level). So I'll continue, I guess, to dabble, and learn what small pieces I can while I can. Hopefully my situation will change in the future...

-G-