Uchinadi???

[Joel Simmons]

Aloha all,

Just what is Uchinadi? I practiced Shobayashi Shorin-ryu for about 2 years, but I've been out of the loop for a while. I had never heard of Uchinadi until I started playing around on the internet.

Any takers?

Mahalo

[Doug Daulton]

Joel,

In Hogen, a Ryukyuan/Okinawan dialect, Okinawa is called "Uchina" and hand is "ti" or "di". So literally, Uchinadi is "hand of Okinawa" or "Okinawan Hand".

You may have heard of Naha-te, Shuri-te, Tomari-te ... the regional antecedants of modern Okinawan Karate. Those terms reflect Japanese pronunciations of the Hogen names. In Hogen, they would be pronounced differently. For example, Shuri-te would be pronounced "Suidi" (Sue-ee-dee).

The term "Uchinadi" has recently become more widely known due to a two volume video of the same name by Oshiro Toshihiro Sensei. In addition, Patrick McCarthy's research society also uses the term "Koryu Uchinadi", to describe it's research into the historic martial arts of Okinawa.

If you are interested in doing some more online reading, check out the following links:<ul><li>Kata: The Enigma of Uchinadi (http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7743)
<li>What is 'Ti' or 'Te' exactly.... (http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7797)</ul>Regards,

Doug Daulton

PS: As you are from Hawai'i, you may want to check with Charles Goodin. He is an excellent local resource (for you :)). In addition, there are many nisei and sansei (2nd & 3rd generation) Uchinanchu (Okinawan people) in the Hawai'ian islands. So, if interested, you may be able to find some more out through that network.

[Joel Simmons]

Aloha Mr. Daulton,

Thanks for the links. I spent a good deal of time reading those posts. I think I'm more confused. :karatekid

I had some other questions for you. You're probably going to think I should know some of this stuff considering I did study a little bit in Shorin-ryu, but...

I spoke with Charles Goodin and he had some recommendations for me since his dojo is on the other side of town. He told me that there are a few Matsubayashi-ryu teachers on my side of town and a Wado-ryu teacher. What is Wado-ryu? I don't know the sensei's name, but he was a personal student of the founder according to Mr. Goodin.

I guess I'm just trying to find a really good teacher that doesn't have a questionable lineage. I've had a bitter-sweet experience in MA ever since I left Shorin-ryu, and I just want to find a place to train under a knowledgable person.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Don't fall asleep. :D

Mahalo,

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Robert, you made some great points there.

Following is for all and not directed to Robert uniquely. I believe most know already the things I'm telling - and some disagree. Feel free to do so. After all, discussion, when made in friendly manner, is a good thing.

However, "bunkai" isn't a bandwagon - unless one teaches it incorrectly or makes claims of extensive "kyusho" -usage (I tend to call it "voodoo point technique" since it's rather ridiculously marketed like snake-oil). Bunkai is a real deal, though okinawans didn't use the word before the craze started - after all, everyone was talking about bunkai and some okinawan teachers just seemed to think that it'd be more sensible to use the word people already know.

OK, what I see to be the "bunkai" or "ti chi ki" idea: Teaching what we do in kata. To be blunt, I think that further you go from original shape of kata, more bull you get - so it's pretty sensible to take the simplest explanation. Also, "bunkai" is unique to each style and school - I get the bunkai/ti chi ki what Kyan Chotoku has taught to Zenryo Shimabukuro and he has taught that to his son, Zenpo Shimabukuro. That's pretty much enough for me, I don't need to go further in history. I still believe that Kyan Chotoku received decent teaching from his teachers.

When it comes to popular "there are no blocks in kata" claims that explain all with voodoo-points: Bullsh*t. When you think about it, imagine being surprisely attacked and that you see something flailing towards your face. What do you do? Tickle the attacker - or something you don't maybe even recognize as attacker - under the chin? I don't think so. You block. And that's the point: Keep it sweet'n'simple.

About Uchinadi, uchinandi, koryu uchinadi...must say, never hear or read any okinawan teacher to use those words. All have used the word "karate" as a name of their art. However, that's just a label, not the inside. Old name doesn't mean that someone teaches old things, new name doesn't mean that someone's teaching new things. Usually a different name is just a marketing factor.

Thanks for your time. And Joel: Go around, seek the "best" teacher (what suits for you), try out the schools you have. That's possibly the best way to find a dojo that is most suitable for you.

Good luck!

[Joel Simmons]

Aloha all,

I agree with you Robert, about the whole "kyusho, tuite" thing. I know what Jussi is saying about bunkai though. I have heard of that term before when I trained in Shobayashi Shorin-ryu.

I was pretty sure that the "koryu uchinadi" term was some old word someone decided to use to "enhance" their sub-par techniques. Who knows...maybe I'm wrong.

However, I've had my fair share of run-ins with people who claim to teach on thing...and it turns out to be a whole different ball-game. I agree Jussi: old name doesn't mean old techniques or vice versa with new names/techniques.

I'm trying to decide what martial art I want to pursue and I don't want to get duped if ya know what I mean. I am visiting a dojo tonight, where Takenouchi-ryu jujutsu is taught. Also, there is a sensei nearby who was the student of the founder of Wado-ryu. I've been given a couple other recommendations by local dojos as well. Should I try and find an instructor who is closer to the source of the art? I guess I mean someone who isn't off on their own saying, "I learned from so and so, but now I never see them since I moved away, but I've developed the art beyond what I was taught."

Okay, I'm just rambling here trying to get an answer from you guys as to what style I should study. I can never make these kinds of decisions.:(

Aloha and mahalo,

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Robert: I agree with you in many points. Must say, I simplified the earlier letter a bit.

About bunkai: Each school has their unique flavour in it. However, that doesn't mean that the movement and application would be totally different in one school than it is in another. I just mean that people should - at least at first - stay in the bunkai their own style and school uses.

And yes, a movement that is done as a "block" in kata can be a strike in bunkai - and vice versa. However, what I meant was that "there are no blocks in kata" -theory that is preached by G. Dillman is bogus. There certainly are blocks that are used to prevent to be hit - whatever their appearance in kata is. I'm well aware that blocking movements can be used as strikes and striking movements as blocks - there are many examples of this in kata.

Bottom line here: I think we agree in most of the things. I also think that I can use my incapability in english as a good reason for these misunderstandings. I'm sorry for that, I'm still learning. :)

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by hawaiianvw67 ... I spoke with Charles Goodin and he had some recommendations for me since his dojo is on the other side of town. He told me that there are a few Matsubayashi-ryu teachers on my side of town and a Wado-ryu teacher. What is Wado-ryu? I don't know the sensei's name, but he was a personal student of the founder according to Mr. Goodin.

I guess I'm just trying to find a really good teacher that doesn't have a questionable lineage. I've had a bitter-sweet experience in MA ever since I left Shorin-ryu, and I just want to find a place to train under a knowledgeable person.Joel,

While I've not met Charles personally, he and I have corresponded several times ... and he is respected by people I know well and respect. With this in mind, if Charles recommended this Wado-ryu teacher, I am sure his Grade A.

As I am not a Wado-ryu practitioner, I'll point you at Wado-ryu History (http://www.wado-ryu.org/wadoryu/wadohist.asp) to answer your question about Wado-ryu.

Good luck,

[Doug Daulton]

Robert & Jussi,

Great back-n-forth. My 2 yen ...

There are certainly blocks in karate. However uke-waza ("blocking" techniques), as taught to beginners, should only be thought of as pure "stopping" blocks through shodan or nidan. Once at this level, the practitioner should have developed a strong base of tai-sabaki (body-shifting) and tenshin (body-transition). Robert - help me if I translated those wrong.

With tai-sabaki and tenshin now in the arsenal, one should no longer be thinking of stopping attacks at the end (the fist or forearm). Rather, they should tend to ignore the actual attack by moving around/through it to getting to the core of the opponent's body. Here, the "block" becomes far less atemi (concussive force) loaded and far more subtle or "blended" to use an Aikido description. However, at any point along the "block", one should be able to apply atemi and/or initiate kansetsu-waza (joint techniques/controls).

Granted, this approach comes with some risk. However, the 20/80 rule applies ... one should accept being hit with the opponent's strike at 20% power ... in order to put themselves in position to deliver a strike with 80%+ power at a target which will drop their opponent. My core rub with modern sports karate is that it creates an artificial mai-ai (critical distance) and does not give people the right environment to practice the 20/80 rule. Karate & Ti are not dancing, one should expect to get hit.

Finally, I think the real disconnect occurs in the translation of the term "uke". Most translate it as "block". It is my understanding that a better translation is "reception" or "receiving technique". When one thinks of the uke-waza ("receiving" techniques) with the latter translation in mind, I think it opens up a lot of doors in one's training.

Regards,

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Doug: Excellent post with many good points.

I totally agree with your definition (or actually, correct definition) to the word "uke". Pretty commonly it is thought to be an actual blocking technique. As you said, most people never think that it could be just a simple avoidance of attack.
Good example of that is in Seibukan's Ippon kumite-practice, when "nagashi uke" simply means "stepping aside". Same principle (for example, leaning the body down to avoid the strike) can be found from numerous kata.

I also believe that Choki Motobu's statement about the mainland japan's karate - that they've forgot tai sabaki (body movement) and ashi sabaki (foot movement) - is based on the same idea that you describe above. Overall, great post, thank you for that!


Umm, just a thought...I've been using your first names instead of, for example, Mr. Dalton or Mr. Rousselot. Is this OK with all or should I use your title and familyname? (Of course that depends on occasion as well).
I'm most probably younger than you gentlemen and you're free to call me Jussi, but I just thought that I'd ask so I don't insult anyone in any way.

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Jussi Häkkinen ... Umm, just a thought...I've been using your first names instead of, for example, Mr. Dalton or Mr. Rousselot. Is this OK with all or should I use your title and familyname? (Of course that depends on occasion as well).
I'm most probably younger than you gentlemen and you're free to call me Jussi, but I just thought that I'd ask so I don't insult anyone in any way. Jussi,

I cannot speak for Robert, but please feel free to call me Doug. I am not that much older than you! :) In all seriousness, I do think is a good practice to default to Mr. or Ms. {insert name} until otherwise informed. I try to do that whenever possible. But hey, that's just me.

Regards,