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Bustillo, A.
30th September 2001, 13:36
There are several full-contact karate groups that fight without protective equipment. Other groups use gloves and some type of helmet.
The bogu ( protective gear) eguipment was used in Okinawa and sevearl schools in Japan have adopted the training.

When I visit dojos, kickboxing and mixed-martial arts classes, I see there are many schools that are practicing a form of bogu training.

Antonio Bustillo
www.SteadyTraining.com

John Bowden
30th September 2001, 14:19
I'm not too wild about sparring with protection (or with full contact.) However, relatedly, I think self defense training using bogu (or even better specialized full body protection like Macho Red Man or Tony Blauer's stuff is very useful. We've been using similar equipment with great effect in intense women's self defense training. The big problem with this gear is the extraordinary cost for anything that can help with a real karate attack. I think that this issue is what has kept our school from adopting this type of training. I know there are many, including my Sensei, who'd love to work with this at a black belt level in our school.

Perhaps there is a market opportunity for someone to develop a lower cost Red Man or Blauer type training armor system. Perhaps Century will do it as it appears that they may have acquired Macho.

Anyways, I think that working with the Women's Self Defense class in the armored attacker capacity really illuminated a new area for me, and I highly recommend it for other karateka.

hector gomez
30th September 2001, 16:33
ROBERT

Since you seem to like to knickpick ,and always clear up any
historical facts that are posted,Tell me if you disagree with this
fact.

Las vegas odds are 100 to 1,that either peter aerts or
ernesto hoost would win any 4lb metal helmet contact tournament in the world,using the so called martial sport techniques that you seem to despise so much.

since you know everyone in japan looking them up there should
be no problem.

Hector Gomez

Steven Malanosk
30th September 2001, 19:18
Just a couple of points regarding the original post by Mr. Bustillo.

While in Okinawa, I saw BoGu practice in various dojos, but the competition aspect in addition to Nakamura Sensei's group, was mainly out of Master S. Odo's dojo, Odo as you know originally was originally head of Nakamura'a group, in between the fathers death, and the sons readyness to take the system over.

Koeikan, which is a Japanese Ryu Ha of the ShiTo school, uses it extensively in what they call BoGumite or Gumite.

Choki Motobu was known to be a user of the equipment, as well as weapons master Taira.

Just a couple of facts

Oh and by the way Sensei Bustillo, what is your opinion of the BoGu?

Just wondering, as I know that you are quite an accomplished bare knuckle fighter out of Anshin = Kyokushinkai roots.

;)

Bustillo, A.
30th September 2001, 22:27
Mr. Steve Malanowski,

You are correct Enshin Karate does full-contact without potective equipment. I think that combining both types of training, with protective gear and without is best. Sole adherence to one format is not the most beneficial.

If you train full-contact without some type of protection, obviously, you can't go all out on a refular basis.
However, if you rely on helmets and other protective equipment the majority of the time, the realistic appraoch declines.

It is one thing to get hit hard while wearing equipment, yet another to recieve, and give, blows without the security blanket.

Steve you were also correct in stating that the Koei-kan use bogu.
Another group, Daido-juku, founded by Takahashi Azuma use bogu gear. One of the distinct trait of Daidojuku is their use of a bubble mask.



Antonio Bustillo
[url]www.SteadyTraining.com[:toast:

Goju Man
1st October 2001, 00:32
Antonio, you are right on the money. Is there a manufacturer of gear that would be useful in nhb type fighting? Uptil now, we use boxing equipment until we go to the ground. After that, it is not very good because we cannot grab, etc. Maybe you can direct to somone. As usual, good posy.





Manny Salazar
it's all that
at the budo barn;)

Steven Malanosk
1st October 2001, 00:34
Sorry about the typo, I meant to say Enshin as in Joko Ninomya Shihan's system.

Anshin, " I was thinking about a gi that I was planning on ordering:look:

Anyway, yes, I agree, that the use of this type of gear, coupled with the other forms of the chosen curric. is beneficial.

Another case in point:

Oyama Shigeru Shihan uses FIST gear, " a modern alternative" as well as Kyokushin style " Kenka " in the daily training at his USA Oyama KaraTe HQ in Manhattan.

Hey, even the USMC uses it in pugil stick fighting, " no I think that we may have gotten that idea, from football." :p

Anyway, nice talking to you Tony,

Oh, hey everyone, incidentally, Bustillo here, also breaks a mean Baseball bat with his shin too, so its probably a better idea to spar him with the gear on:eek:

Bustillo, A.
1st October 2001, 16:49
Steve M,

I am not one to correct typos. I make plenty of them also. It wasn't a big thing to me and I didn't mention it. I pay attention to the content of the post, and you made some good points.

The FIST equipment is excellent. I have the thigh protectors, for low kicks. The thicker, larger size works fine. i made the mistake of buying the smaller version first, and when we went all out, you could feel the shin bone dig into your quads. However, I think the company went out of bussiness.

Goju budo barn, minus the chickens

The thin mixed-martial glove. I use it, but I need to invest in a proffessional type that doesn't have the thin bar across the palms of ths glove. And, as you know, the gloves protect our hands, not the oopoment head. Some type of headgear is needed, especially for the training you describe where you inclide elbows, forearms and butts.


Regards,

Antonio Bustillo
www.Steadytraining.com

hector gomez
1st October 2001, 17:11
Robert Rousselot

I know we got of on the wrong foot,and things were said ,
I took them personal at the time, for me, its really water under the bridge.I am
really looking foward to your input on things like training with
equipment.:wave:



Antonio the way i train at the moment is very similar to san shou rules when standing/striking.

Boxing gloves, headgear, working also for the takedowns,its only after the takedown that grappling becomes hard to do with boxing gloves.

In my standing/striking up until someone assumes control on the ground it can be done this way,but for continuation
of grappling on the ground, boxing gloves are impractical,although
i cannot grab with my fingers for a takedown, the positon of your
hands and body should be the same, it actually forces you to concentrate on perfect form to execute a takedown,because you cannot grab that effectivley.

I know, i might be missing
out on potential grab and strike situations before takedowns,but
like you say, you have to vary the different formats that you train in.

I know people train with the bubble mask , so that they can use smaller open finger gloves to grab ,but i have always found
the mask bulky, and the distance before contact is also alot closer,maybe
Robert can elaborate?

Hector gomez

arnie
1st October 2001, 19:15
About boogu...

I think sparring with boogu gear will only "teach" you a limited lesson, but boy! does it teach you that lesson well!!

Robert said:

"As far as I have seen there is one other Karate group besides the Assoc. I belong to that does this type of sparring....I think their name is RenShinKan Karate (˜B?SŠÙ?@‹óŽè). "

The style is called Zen Nippon Shorinjiryu karatedo, at least here in Finland. At the end of that already long name you occasionally find "Renshinkan", wich is also the name of the HQ in Kagoshima.

regards,

Ari Lappinen

Bustillo, A.
1st October 2001, 23:37
Hector and Arnie,

Valid points about the different types of protective equipment.

Bogu gear has its benefits and that it is crucial to be aware of the drawbacks. As mentioned, distance etc.

Antonio Bustillo
www.SteadyTraining.com

Steven Malanosk
2nd October 2001, 03:31
In a previous posting, I was mistaken, when I reffered to Koeikan Karate, as a ShiTo Ryu offshoot.
Although like ShiTo, it uses kata from Naha and Shuri Te, it also has direct roots.

Eizo Onishi studied with Kanken Toyama and was awarded Menkyo Kaiden from him. Toyamas teacher was Anko Itosu. Upon receiving MenkyoKaiden he (onishi) was given a letter of introduction to obtain instruction from Juhatsu Kiyoda. After training in with Kiyoda he developed KoeiKan with Toyamas blessing and approval. The only kata he received from Kiyoda (or so I was led to believe) was Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiryu, Sepai, and Suparenpi.

Incidentally, at the KoeikaIn events that I attended at Montclair College in NJ, the Gumite was poular, but only participated in by certain folks, not expected of from all.

Just wanted to be sure not to leave ant bad info in my trails.
:)

yiyo
3rd October 2001, 01:55
I cannot breathe in bogu gear.

shintaka
16th October 2001, 14:10
Hi,

I think you can discuss as long as you like about bogu-karate.

But the fact is, karate was developed purely for selfdefense.
And testing your skills for selfdefense cannot be done non- or semi contact. That is why protectors were developed. Depending on the school/ organisation they all deleveloped their own bougu.
This way you can test if your techniques are lethal (enough without injuring your opponent too badly.
Afterall the next day we all have to go to our jobs.

I'm also training bougu karate, studying under Kobayashi Shihan (nippon karatedo genwakai). Especially students who are starting kumite training forms (6th kyu and up) are complaining about the stifness and heavyness of the do and men. But it is for your own protection and your opponent has the same difficulties.
When your able to make a perfect lethal defense or offense technique with all these difficulties (bougu, nevousness during match) you can say you passed the tested, which is (I think) is the only intention of a championship.
Winning trophies doesn't garanty your life on the street.

Sincerly,

Wouter

Goju Man
16th October 2001, 22:44
Robert, Welcome. Thank you for those pics. Do you use all of them or do you have a certain standard?

Regards,
Manny Salazar
it's all that :)

Bustillo, A.
7th November 2001, 10:27
The pictures of the headgear gives us a good example of the choices available to protect the face and head. Nevertheless, it seems we didn't really elaborate on other equipment. For example shins, elbows and knees.

I found the 'FIST' gear to be excellent but they are out of business. And, an associate who trains police officers swears by the 'Redman Gear'.
So, leaving the TKD red, or blue, spotted chest garb aside, I am interested in comparing notes.


Antonio Bustillo
www.SteadyTraining.com

CEB
7th November 2001, 17:03
I saw a Koshiki demonstrations in the early 80's or late 70's. ( im fuzzy on dates , i usually am im awlful with dates.) In Indianapolis. And later in Cinncinatti.

I thought the Koshiki protective armor looked interesting. The combatants looked like they were hitting full bore but the armor seemed very effective. One of the fighters was a Kobayashi Shorin Kan teacher from Kokomo Indiana named Eddie Bethea. Mr. Bethea hit the the other guy's plexiglass face masked and broke the glass. No gloves or booties were worn competitors just taped up their knuckles. I don't follow competitive karate much so I don't know if Koshiki competitions ever gained in popularity. I don't know what Koshiki gear sells for, but I assume it is available.

Mr. Trias from the USKA was trying to promote koshiki. I think he was disappointed in what American tournament karate had become and was trying to get away from the dramatized tag game and head in a direction where competitors could use some karate technique and still be able to go to work in the morning. Then again that may have just been the impression I was getting on that particular day. ( i was not nor ever been a student of Mr. Trias, just good friends with some USKA people)

Ed Boyd

kusanku
8th November 2001, 07:08
I trained a bit with Ed Bethea, and he is indeed , one, a gentleman, and two, quite powerful and skilled.

His senior student is a good friend and former training partner of mine, and we trained many times with Mr. Bethea, both at his dojo and his student's.I had the honer of sparring with Mr. Bethea several times and can verify his skill, control and power.

No doubt he felt the koshiki gear could withstand his punch, but I would have bet against it myself.

Coming from Okinawan Kenpo mysaelf, as welll as some other styles, I was used to bogu kumite wearing, basically, kendo gear.Some fun, hah?:D

It seems strange to some but not to those who train in these systems, that the very Okinawan systems that emphasize practical applkication of kata, also use the bogu kumite sparring systems.

But really, iyt isn't a contradiction or a paradox. If you are going to defend yourself using techniques, contained in and drawn from kata, you'd best be sure what you can and cannot do with them, and the only really effective way to be one hundred percent sure on that is to use bogu or an equivalent system where you can test the techniques but not kill your practice partners.

Mr. Bethea simply didn't know his own strength on that particular kind of gear, since he often also used the kendo type gear which, I guarantee, will not break when hit hard, though ones neck, may.

Mr. Bethea had been USKA Open weight point and full contact sparring champion during those years when I had the privilege of training a bit under and sparring with him.

He was and is indeed, a true gentleman.I was very happy to have known and worked out with him and his students.Though normally Kobayashi Shorinkan karate does use control sparring, bogu was sometimes in evidence around the dojo.Made me feel right at home.

Also, on one occasion at a seminar in my Sensei's then Ryukyu Kempo( Oyata system of that time) dojo, he and Mr. Bethea got to meet and interact, my teacher also said of him, he is a gentleman.

Good people all.Very humble, very strong.Very good karate.

CEB
8th November 2001, 19:33
Originally posted by kusanku

Good people all.Very humble, very strong.Very good karate.

You are right on all points. Mr. Bethea is one of the finest individuals I have had the honor of meeting in Karate. Whenever I hear the name Mr. Bethea the term gentleman always soon follows. Also there often follows some sort of discussion concerning the capability to hit very very hard.

John did work out at Fort Ben. Harrison between 10 and 15 years ago.

Have a good day.

Ed Boyd

kusanku
8th November 2001, 20:46
Thanks, Ed! And a very good day to you, Sir, as well!:-)

regards

Bustillo, A.
10th December 2001, 01:10
To Mike Mitchell,

I ran into another karateka today who mentioned he witnessed a good demo in South Florida by Koei-kan men using bogu.

He stated the demo was held at a Jundokan tournament a few years ago.

He added, "those guys really went at it hard, and even with the equipment, they got banged up and cut."

I know that at one time you belonged to a Koei-kan.

Do you know or remember anything about the demo?
By any chance , were you present?


Futhermore , I am interested in learning the reaction from the the Jundokan folks who hosted the event because I know that here in Miami, they don't interact much with anyone.

Antonio Bustillo
www.Steadytraining.com

Harry Cook
10th December 2001, 11:58
I think bogu equipment can be very useful when used to develop distance, timing and fighting spirit in students who may need to improve in those areas. Over the years I have experimented with various kinds of protective equipment and as far as protecting the head goes, I still think the heavier Japanese style men with the metal bars protecting the face are the best, even given the problems with weight and visability. I bought a couple of the plastic visored helmets in Japan last year and they are OK, but the fogging is a serious problem. One of my young ladies, aged 13 was practicing attacks on me when the visor fogged up. I didn't see the incoming punch to the face, or her follow up to the groin! However it provided some amusement for a number of the dan grades in my dojo. (They will suffer later!)
Actually instead of using the bogu equipment for free sparring I think it is more efficient to use it in pre-arranged sparring or kata bunkai, i.e. it adds a new dimension to practice the Gekisai dai ichi bunkai in armour. The attacker can go all out for a single strong attack while the defender soon picks up on any errors of timing or distancing etc. These skills can be applied in free style or randori/irikumi later, where I think the protection should be minimal. In this way the essential elements of ichi-go ichi-e are preserved, but a slightly more realistic situation is experienced in terms of contact.
yours,
Harry Cook

hector gomez
11th December 2001, 17:08
One of the main problems i find with the heavy bogu helmets
is not being able to develop good upper body and rapid head
motions that are very essential in combat.

Bobbing & weaving are very impractical with a heavy helmet,causing one to fight in a more linear format , to compensate for the bulkiness(weight) of the helmet,feinting,slipping,dodging also have to take a back seat.

These are all strategies that a good striker should be trying to
devlelop,otherwise it becomes a who's tougher straight ahead
i will hit you or you are going to hit me type of scenario.

The last problem i find with heavy bogu gear is as mentioned above if one fears less getting a broken nose because he has
metal bars protecting his face,all the sudden everyone is brave
attacking at will ,not thinking about consequenses of the end result.

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
13th December 2001, 03:24
Mr.cook brings up a good point. I would rather use it in self defense type training rather than fighting. Hector makes a good
point. I have said the same thing. The defender is not so hesitant
about trading or receiving blows with the bogu gear. I have sparred many times with boxing head gear and gloves and beleive me, getting your nose broken will make you aware of that.
Mike, that was an interesting story. What's up? :toast:


Regards,
Manny Salazar;)

Bustillo, A.
13th December 2001, 10:31
Ah, Giju man, I was wondering where you were.
I thought that perhaps you were practicing at the Budo Barn wearing Bogu and Boogieing Bassai with Betty Boop to Buster Rhymes rap version of 'Bad to the Bone'.

Mike Mitchell,

The Bogu of Koei- Kan.

What are the main differences between that type of eguipment and other gear, for example , the Kendo gear?

Antonio Bustillo
www.Steadytraining.com

Goju Man
17th December 2001, 02:52
Antonio, how are you? The budo barn is alive and well.
How is the "Master"?

Mike "bogu man" Mitchell, leader of the South Florida Alliance, what's up? There was a good NAGA tournament last week.



Regards,
Manny "rock and roll" Salazar;)

Bustillo, A.
17th December 2001, 14:15
Manny,

Evertrhing is 5 by 5.

When is the next no-bogu event?

A. Bustillo

Paul Steadman
18th December 2001, 01:43
Hi All,

May I mention the anzen bogu (safety protector) utilising a men (head/face protector) and do (body protector) as utilised in the koshiki (hard form) contact karate tournaments. I've been told that the anzen bogu was developed by Hisataka Masayuki-S of Shorinji-ryu (Kenkokan) Kara (w/- tang ideogram) te-do who is the president of the World Koshiki Karate-do Association.

The anzen bogu is made out of plastic, leather & fibre-glass. The men (face protector) has a plastic bubble to protect the face, which incorporates the infamous 'cheese-grater,' or breathing holes (which can skin knuckles during a jodan-zuki). The 'cheese-grater' effect has lead to many competitiors wearing mitts made out of wet-suit material.

The koshiki karate competition format is fairly popular in Australia (at least in New South Wales and Queensland) and Canada, but it doesn't seem to be well known around the world.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

CEB
30th July 2003, 19:29
Originally posted by hector gomez
One of the main problems i find with the heavy bogu helmets
is not being able to develop good upper body and rapid head
motions that are very essential in combat.

Bobbing & weaving are very impractical with a heavy helmet,causing one to fight in a more linear format , to compensate for the bulkiness(weight) of the helmet,feinting,slipping,dodging also have to take a back seat.

These are all strategies that a good striker should be trying to
devlelop,otherwise it becomes a who's tougher straight ahead
i will hit you or you are going to hit me type of scenario.

The last problem i find with heavy bogu gear is as mentioned above if one fears less getting a broken nose because he has
metal bars protecting his face,all the sudden everyone is brave
attacking at will ,not thinking about consequenses of the end result.

Hector Gomez

I am also concerned what effects a heavy men protector would have on ukemi. Any good modern lighterweight face/head protection come out in the last couple of years since this thread was discussed?

Goju Man
31st July 2003, 00:01
Ed, boxing has some nice head protection. Doesn't do much for the nose though, but it's light enough for proper head movement and the vital points on the head are protected.
Headgear (http://store.yahoo.com/fightgear/index.html)

hector gomez
31st July 2003, 13:33
A bit expensive but definitely top of the line.

www.grantboxing.com


Hector Gomez

Margaret Lo
31st July 2003, 15:40
Hello all,
Please advise as to where Bogu gear can be purchased. Thanks.

M

CEB
31st July 2003, 15:58
Hi Margaret,

Bogu Bag is one source.

http://www.bogubag.com/Bogu/Karate_Bogu/karate_bogu.html

Shureido has carried it also. I don't know if they current have it or not.

TimothyScott
31st July 2003, 16:37
I recently contacted three different suppliers regarding Bogu gear and Robert Stroud with www.bogubag.com (US supplier for Koei Budogu) was by FAR the most helpful. I would certainly do business with him again! http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon14.gif

I understand from other people that Shureido no longer carries the bugo men. I contacted their US supplier about a padded do (http://www.karateshorinkan.com/store/d000001.htm) and even though it is not listed on the web site, was able to order it from them. It's due to arrive today. (* looks out the window for the brown Santa Claus driving his toy-filled brown truck *)

hector gomez
31st July 2003, 16:43
What are the advantages of wearing smaller gloves with a bogu-type face mask as opposed to the standard boxing gloves & standard boxing head gear?


Hector Gomez

CEB
31st July 2003, 17:19
I've never used Karate Bogu but I know from playing Kendo that the men gives you a serious case of tunnel vision. There is no peripheral vision when wearing Bogu. Maybe a big boxing glove in the face would block to much vision. I'm thinking I've seen big boxing gloves used with bogu before. Shorinji Kempo guys used to compete in bogu that had little backward swatiskas on them. Maybe they used big boxing gloves? The Kimpatser Guy say they don't compete so maybe they don't do this anymore at all.

Margaret Lo
31st July 2003, 17:50
Thanks. I'm going to start w/ TKD chest protectors, they're a bit thin but hard and take kicks and punches pretty well. Honda Martial Arts has them on sale right now for $10.00 each in size 3, can't go wrong with that.

M

Bustillo, A.
31st July 2003, 17:57
Another option.



http://www.terminator.co.uk/Retail/Full2.htm
_______________________________________________________
Ed wrote,

Shorinji Kempo guys used to compete in bogu that had little backward swatiskas on them. Maybe they used big boxing gloves?
________________________________________________________

A.B.-

They did use boxing gloves.

hector gomez
31st July 2003, 19:03
www.fist-inc.com

Hector Gomez

tamashi
31st July 2003, 19:54
www.RealFightGear.com

all their Leather gear is top notch!
tell 'em Paul sent you
:D
Osu!

Bustillo, A.
31st July 2003, 21:38
The FIST equipment is excellent. I did not bother purchasing the entire outfit, only a couple of items; the thigh protectors.

They made a decent Thai pad too.

sean dixie
31st July 2003, 22:03
Hi there,

Thanks for the tip off! Just for the record there used to be plenty of free randori competitions in Shorinji Kempo in Japan, despite anything you may have heard from Kimpatsu. Still is a lot of randori available to Shorinji kenshi. We use Do for body protection, I believe the old style was whale bone, padding and leather the more modern versions have two plates seperated by various impact resistant seperators designed to distribute the energy fairly evenly across the Do. Having two plates means that when given a good strike you get a great cracking sound! In Japan theysometimes use the 'goldfish' bowl helmets but most people don't bother, apparently they can steam up!

In the UK we tend not to have to many randori competions but when we do we just use light mits,a box(v.important)dos and a gum sheild.

The little backward swastika is called 'Manji'. Both sides of the Manji,ura and omote are important in Shorinji.They represent strenght/power and love/compasion, the later being our symbol and an important part of Shorinji philosophy- Riki Ai Funi(Unity of strengh and love)You will find this symbol on all Buddhist temples in Japan and through Asia.

If your at all interested in Shorinji or other martial gear I can recomend:

www.kinteki.com

Nice chatting to you, we should do this more often:D

Steve Williams
31st July 2003, 22:20
Hi Guys....

We (Shorinjikempo) do use protectors, both for "pairform" practice and for randori practice/demonstrations.

This link (http://www.kitanet.ne.jp/~shorinji/e-faceguard.htm) will give you a pic of the headguard in use......
This has just been introduced (a couple of years) and is VERY good to use.

Also we use "ken protector" similar to karate style ones (we did use boxing gloves, and some branches still do, although they have not been in general use for a long time).
Also "Do" body protector, there is a new one in use which is "double skinned", cannot find a pic at the moment, but our "usual" ones are similar to kendo body armour (was based on kendo armour) with a THIN (and I do mean thin) padding and a leather covering.
Also groin cup......

Thats about it.

hectokan
1st August 2003, 02:55
www.kickboxinggear.com

www.fairtex.com


:wave:

hobbitbob
1st August 2003, 04:59
Love the helmets! Very manga! :smilejapa

chizikunbo
3rd January 2004, 17:23
http://www.karatedo.co.jp/shureido/english/e_bougu/e_bougu.html

koeikannidan
1st February 2006, 09:21
The Bogu that is used in the KoeiKan system is way to heavy and it limits peripheral vision way too much. It teachs you to take shots and break through useing brute strength not technique. You cannot use proper head movement technique while wearing the bogu and believe it or not I have seen many bad cuts to guys chins from taking mae gerris to the chin cup that your face sits in inside the bogu. It is also very likely to cause severe bruising around the outer sides of the face from the stress of the blows being distributed into the face cup. Another issue is that it is so expensive and in this day and age of disease that can be transmitted by blood it is not a good idea to use any one elses bogu after they have just got cut and bled into it.
these are just a few of the cons of traditional bogu.

Troy M Spees
Nidan Koei kan karate

RobertRousselot
1st February 2006, 12:58
1) The Bogu that is used in the KoeiKan system is way to heavy and it limits peripheral vision way too much.
2) It teachs you to take shots and break through useing brute strength not technique.
3) You cannot use proper head movement technique while wearing the bogu and
4) believe it or not I have seen many bad cuts to guys chins from taking mae gerris to the chin cup that your face sits in inside the bogu. It is also very likely to cause severe bruising around the outer sides of the face from the stress of the blows being distributed into the face cup.
5) Another issue is that it is so expensive and in this day and age of disease that can be transmitted by blood it is not a good idea to use any one elses bogu after they have just got cut and bled into it.
6) these are just a few of the cons of traditional bogu.

Troy M Spees
Nidan Koei kan karate

1) Your group uses the same kind of head gear we do and it works just fine for us. I don’t find it heavy at all, nor does it limit my vision that much.
2) Not really. Your teacher should be teaching you how to use the equipment properly so that you are not just taking shots to break through, you can still block, also your teacher should show you proper technique so you are not just relying on brute force.
3) Again, I disagree. You can if trained properly.
4) Think of the option if you weren’t wearing protection.
5) Yes it is expensive.
6) You find them “cons” and I find them to be “pros”.

koeikannidan
2nd February 2006, 07:56
I am glad you are so fond of bogu. I trained with it for over twenty years and have to disagree with you on every one of your pro opinions. I have seen way to much barreling through and just ignoring the shots that were recieved and just blasting your way into an opponent. I also have to disagree with you in the fact that you think that proper head movement is possible. the bogu itself adds 3 to 4 inches of extra area to your head. I have also been involved in amateur boxing and I would have to say that boxing head movement is superior in the short run to anything involved useing bogu. It (the Bogu) also severly limits your peripheral vision.

But that is why it is ok to agree to disagree

thanks for your opinion
Troy M. Spees

RobertRousselot
2nd February 2006, 11:21
1) I trained with it for over twenty years and have to disagree with you on every one of your pro opinions.
2) I have seen way to much barreling through and just ignoring the shots that were recieved and just blasting your way into an opponent.
3) I also have to disagree with you in the fact that you think that proper head movement is possible. the bogu itself adds 3 to 4 inches of extra area to your head. I have also been involved in amateur boxing and I would have to say that boxing head movement is superior in the short run to anything involved useing bogu. It (the Bogu) also severly limits your peripheral vision.

But that is why it is ok to agree to disagree

thanks for your opinion
Troy M. Spees

1) And I for over 26.
2) From people in your own association that have all been taught the same by the same instructors?? I can see why.
3) It can and has been done. So if it adds 3+ inches to your head then when a punch is missed with bogu it is safe to say it will miss without it. As for vision impairment. The 2 photos below show the version we use. From this website:Bogu Gear (http://www.ryu-te-supplies.com/Heavy%20Sparring%20gear.htm) I can see just fine using it. Besides…..you should be watching the guys body to know what his hands are doing instead of watching his hands.

Not to be offensive but the opinions you have stated sound like what I hear from lower kyu ranked folks just starting out in bogu. By the time middle kyu ranks are reached proper body movement, head included, should have been introduced, along with various types of counters, combinations and so on so you don’t just “suck it up and blast through”.
If you instructor hasn’t introduced he should. And if he hasn't I am wondering what the point of doing bogu is in your dojo.

koeikannidan
2nd February 2006, 19:40
I trained with the Michigan Hombu dojo in drayton plains from 1978 till 1998 and obtained the rank of Nidan. I also trained in amateur boxing and my sensei eventually split from the Koei kan system for various reasons. I have seen many differant variants on bogu, the one that you sent pictures of is very similar to another koeikan dojo in New jersey run by a man named Al Vaca. his bogu and yours are much lighter and smaller than the ones we used to use. I dont take it personally about your comment that my views seem like low kyu rank comments about bogu. Its just that our bogu was way too heavy and from my experiences with various head gear It does limit you too much. I learned much more from sparring with a good pair of ringside superbag gloves and an open face mask than sparring with that restrictive thing strapped around my throat, again another reason to not wear it. It was too tight around the neck making it harder to breath.

again, its ok to agree to disagree

thanks
Troy

RobertRousselot
2nd February 2006, 21:57
1) I trained with the Michigan Hombu dojo in drayton plains from 1978 till 1998 and obtained the rank of Nidan. I also trained in amateur boxing and my sensei eventually split from the Koei kan system for various reasons.
2) I have seen many differant variants on bogu, the one that you sent pictures of is very similar to another koeikan dojo in New jersey run by a man named Al Vaca. his bogu and yours are much lighter and smaller than the ones we used to use.
I dont take it personally about your comment that my views seem like low kyu rank comments about bogu.
3)Its just that our bogu was way too heavy and from my experiences with various head gear It does limit you too much. I learned much more from sparring with a good pair of ringside superbag gloves and an open face mask than sparring with that restrictive thing strapped around my throat, again another reason to not wear it. It was too tight around the neck making it harder to breath.

4) again, its ok to agree to disagree

thanks
Troy

1) From what I see the “Honbu” is in Japan…..not Michigan.
2) The photo below was taken off a Koeikan website. The bogu in the photo is almost identical to ours.
3) I have also seen the bogu head gear you use in person. It isn’t that heavy.
4) agree to disagree......I have always found people use this phrase when they can’t support their own idea well.

The fact remains that there is no need to “suck it up and blast through” since it is possible to move your head and body as well as do combinations and counters while doing bogu.

Tommy_P
2nd February 2006, 22:48
I recently visited an area Koei Kan dojo and the instructor ( an acquaintance) was going on about Bogu kumite. I didn't see them use it but when I returned a few days later I noticed it had been moved and one of the armor was backwards in its spot on the wall. This lead me to believe they had used it between my visits. He claims that it takes some time getting used to the weight and the head gear. He said the headgear needs to be tied tightly around the neck. The Bogu armor I saw there appeared to be nothing like the photos above but rather like something out of a feudal Japan movie! Kind of like some painting of an ancient warrior. Until you look at it close it appears to be made out of wood. It is extremely thick and the skirt is sort of like patchwork, again looking like wood shake with padding under it.
I was surprised because what I expected was what I see in the photos above.
What he had there was huge, thick and cumbersome/heavy looking. I don't think anything would penetrate what I saw, not even a baseball bat. :laugh:

Tommy

koeikannidan
2nd February 2006, 23:45
Sorry Robert but I can support my claim about what I am talking to you about and I have put my time in useing the equipment in question so please dont make accusations about my qualifications. I was just trying to make a point thats all. I dont question your qualifications, so please dont attempt to discredit mine. Again, any amateur boxer would be able to out fight a guy in a traditional bogu at the drop of a hat. Trust me, I am more than qualified to talk about Koeikan and its training methods. So again, please do not insinuate that you know something that I dont.

thanks,
Troy M. Spees

koeikannidan
2nd February 2006, 23:47
oh and by the way, thats jeff masons dojo that your picture was taken at. and the Hombu for Koeikan in the US is in Michigan. its located on 9mile road and John R. The chief instructor is Brian Frost.

Thanks
Troy M Spees

koeikannidan
3rd February 2006, 00:11
I will close with this last item,

People get used to getting hit with the bogu on, and they think that is the way it feels without the bogu. Try taking the bogu off and taking the same shot and recovering from it and finishing the match or the street fight or whatever it is you just got hit in. You will find it is a whole differant ballgame.

people claim that bogu is the ulimate martial arts experience, making it a life like experience very similar to a street fight. This is just not true. I urge you to take a good shot without your bogu on and then see how you feel, you will not be able to recover and respond in same way you would if you were wearing your armor. And think of it likest this, in the street, will you have your bogu on? You fight like you train and you train like you fight.

I wont be as rude as you were and question your qualifications. I am a better person than that, but again please dont question mine as they are very legitimate.

thank you,
Troy M Spees

koeikannidan
3rd February 2006, 02:17
Dear Tommy P,.
You are right that the bogu in Koeikan is tied VERY tight around the neck. One of the major problems is that if it is not tight enough it will cause your head to rattle around inside when you get hit. This causes injury to the wearer. I remember one of the first times I had bogu put on and I thought I would pass out, it was so tight around the neck. There are ways to get it comfortable enough to wear however. I was wondering, whose dojo was it that you were visiting? I know of one high ranking Koeikan Yudansha who was very efficient in causeing extreme bruising around the circumference of the face because when you put on a bogu your face is in a cup that is made to keep your face immobilized. the idea is to limit damage, this yudansha however knew how to use various strikes and punches and this would cause extreme bruising to whoever he was doing kumite with.

bottom line, your right, those things are so tight you can hardly breath in them.
Thanks,
Troy M Spees

ryukyu2000
3rd February 2006, 02:34
Troy, Robert or other members:

For those experienced with Bogu, is part of the training inclusive of hitting kyusho points on the body without the associated damage of doing it without bogu gear. Robert, I am especially interested if this is covered in Mr. Oyata's organization.

Thank you in advance.

Andy Morris
Delmar, NY USA

koeikannidan
3rd February 2006, 03:16
Andy,
In my experiences with full contact bogu, the emphasis was on continuous technique without stopping and particular emphasis on contact. I have since learned that sometimes we did not get the most out of our bogu due to this emphasis. It should have been more of a learning experience based on contact, not a learning experience based upon inflicting as much punishment on the other student as possible. I believe that full contact training is essential to real martial arts learning, however it should be in a spirit of helping and working with your partner, not opponent as was the case many times in our old dojo.

Thanks
Troy M Spees

Tommy_P
3rd February 2006, 03:27
I was wondering, whose dojo was it that you were visiting?

The gentleman was Brad Hiderbrandt and I believe he may be associated with Mr. Frost? That name sounds familiar. Brad is in the Poconos Pennsylvania (West End Dojo).

Tommy

koeikannidan
3rd February 2006, 04:10
I used to train under sensei frost, in fact he was the one who ran my shodan test. well take care.
Troy M. Spees

RobertRousselot
3rd February 2006, 14:10
Sorry Robert but I can support my claim about what I am talking to you about and I have put my time in useing the equipment in question so please dont make accusations about my qualifications. I was just trying to make a point thats all. I dont question your qualifications, so please dont attempt to discredit mine. Again, any amateur boxer would be able to out fight a guy in a traditional bogu at the drop of a hat. Trust me, I am more than qualified to talk about Koeikan and its training methods. So again, please do not insinuate that you know something that I dont.

thanks,
Troy M. Spees


I am sure you can. And I have no qualms about you training in bogu under your teacher.....however, I think you are mistaken about your (+) point on using bogu....there are many, just because your teacher didn't/could't show you these is not my problem

RobertRousselot
3rd February 2006, 14:14
oh and by the way, thats jeff masons dojo that your picture was taken at. and the Hombu for Koeikan in the US is in Michigan. its located on 9mile road and John R. The chief instructor is Brian Frost.

Thanks
Troy M Spees

The honbu is loctaed in Japan....maybe the "shibu" is in Michigan???

RobertRousselot
3rd February 2006, 14:17
Troy, Robert or other members:

For those experienced with Bogu, is part of the training inclusive of hitting kyusho points on the body without the associated damage of doing it without bogu gear. Robert, I am especially interested if this is covered in Mr. Oyata's organization.

Thank you in advance.

Andy Morris
Delmar, NY USA

People place too much emphasis on "kyusho" and "color by numbers kyusho". Bogu is to learn basic body movement and power.
If you want to know more about this you should ask Mr. Oyata himself, I would never pretend to speak for him or give his opinion.

dsomers
3rd February 2006, 14:45
Troy,

If the gear is too big, why not try something like this: http://www.e-bogu.com/photos/IND-SPA--HD-5---1.jpg ? It is much closer to a boxing style headgear, & I'm sure much lighter than what you are using.
Also, would this style of headgear be allowed, or is it mandatory to use the older style headgear pictured in the pics Robert provided?
I personally hate headgear all together, the 1st time I sparred in boxing, back when I was 16, that was the 1st time I ever wore headgear, & been in the martial arts since I was 5, & got my jaw knocked out of place. I have TMJ now because of that incident. I think it happened, because the headgear held my jaw in place, & couldnt move. I've been hit in the jaw w/o headgear many times, & nothing like that has happened. Then again, it could be just the guy that hit me, he was the supper heavy weight champion of FL, they used to call him the seven foot moose, he was so big. Maybe I was just out classed. but, that was the 1st, & last time we've ever sparred.

David

koeikannidan
3rd February 2006, 18:14
You might want to tell that to Sensei Brian Frost that the USA honbu is not in Michigan. He might well be suprised to hear that. Robert you seem to know alot about other systems than just the one you train and teach in. I dont think sensei frost would agree with you about his dojo not being the US honbu.

Thanks
Troy

dsomers
3rd February 2006, 18:31
I think from reading it is just a misunderstanding between you guys. It seems, from reading you are saying that Frost Sensei runs the US hdqts, or the Beikoku So Hombu. It seems, Robert, thought you were saying it was the Main Hombu, over the entire organization. I think just a slight misunderstanding, from a third party looking at it.
So, what do you think of the headgear I posted in the link? Do you think it would be more comfortable for you, & allow you to move better? Also, would you be permitted to use this type of headgear, or do you have to use the older style headgear only?

David

koeikannidan
3rd February 2006, 19:11
I like the way it looks, My sensei Inasio Anzures split from KoeiKan back in the early 90s and he started useing many new ways of full contact sparring, sometimes with just open boxing headgear. In a traditional Koeikan Dojo however they would not allow a headgear like the one you pictured. even though it looks to be a very good product. I have a headgear somewhat like that one that was given to me by Sensei Al Vacca from New Jersey who also split from Koeikan and he uses a headgear somewhat like the one in your picture. Unfortuneatly I wont be useing any headgear personally anymore, I was in a car accident and had neck surgery last year to do work on two discs in the neck. I dont think I would ever have the nerve to put on a bogu again because of that.
take care
Troy M Spees

dsomers
3rd February 2006, 20:24
I'm sorry to hear that. I know the feeling. I have had my share of injuries too. Like I said, had my jaw knocked out of place, back when I was 16. Now have TMJ because of it, it makes a popping sound every once in a while. Prior to that, I broke my ankle, guess how? Doing Kata. I used to train TSD, and towards the rear of the Kata in Pinan Sho Dan, or Heian Sho Dan if you do Shotokan, or any of the newer styles; we used to do a really big over exagerated middle block, in a very deep stance, & snap there went my ankle. Something happened to my knee at the same time, & every once in a while my knee would pop out, I'd have to push it back in. I had all sorts of x-rays, & tests, they could never figure out what was wrong w/ it. Nose shattered by the 2x world heavyweight kickboxing champion, Mark Graden, in my early 20's. Again, out classed. He had no business fighting in a local tournament. Then about 6 yrs ago, a drunk driver struck me from behind, while changing a tire on the side of the interstate. He actually pinned me between my car, & his. I had pulled myself out between the 2 cars. I'm very lucky to be alive, thank god. So, believe me I know your feeling. But, been thinking about fighting again, & was thinking that Bogu might be a way to go, so that way, I dont end up going to work w/ a broken nose, bloody lip, etc, the next day. I know most Thai boxers only do this stuff for no more than about 5 yrs on average. While, I'm not saying I'm a Thai boxer, after 28 yrs of doing this stuff, it sure gets to you. So, maybe I should not even consider fighting again. It's a hard decision to make.

David

RobertRousselot
3rd February 2006, 22:15
You might want to tell that to Sensei Brian Frost that the USA honbu is not in Michigan. He might well be suprised to hear that. Robert you seem to know alot about other systems than just the one you train and teach in. I dont think sensei frost would agree with you about his dojo not being the US honbu.

Thanks
Troy

Not really but I do know improperly used Japanese terms when I see them.
Honbu in Japanese roughly means “Headquarters” or “main branch”.
So if you call something “Honbu” for a style it is where the head of that style is.
Your style is Koeikan and it is located in Tokyo.

Master Onishi currently serves as the Chairman of the International Koei-Kan Karate-Do Federation and the International Kendo Gaku Federation (with Headquaters in Tokyo, Japan)

RobertRousselot
3rd February 2006, 22:21
1) I like the way it looks, My sensei Inasio Anzures split from KoeiKan back in the early 90s and he started useing many new ways of full contact sparring, sometimes with just open boxing headgear. In a traditional Koeikan Dojo however they would not allow a headgear like the one you pictured. even though it looks to be a very good product.
2) I have a headgear somewhat like that one that was given to me by Sensei Al Vacca from New Jersey who also split from Koeikan and he uses a headgear somewhat like the one in your picture.
3) Unfortuneatly I wont be useing any headgear personally anymore, I was in a car accident and had neck surgery last year to do work on two discs in the neck. I dont think I would ever have the nerve to put on a bogu again because of that.
take care
Troy M Spees

1) I see. So you train with a guy from a splinter group.
2) Same as #1
3) That sucks, sorry to hear it.

RobertRousselot
3rd February 2006, 22:25
I'm sorry to hear that. I know the feeling.
1) I have had my share of injuries too. Like I said, had my jaw knocked out of place, back when I was 16. Now have TMJ because of it, it makes a popping sound every once in a while. Prior to that, I broke my ankle, guess how? Doing Kata. I used to train TSD, and towards the rear of the Kata in Pinan Sho Dan, or Heian Sho Dan if you do Shotokan, or any of the newer styles; we used to do a really big over exagerated middle block, in a very deep stance, & snap there went my ankle. Something happened to my knee at the same time, & every once in a while my knee would pop out, I'd have to push it back in. I had all sorts of x-rays, & tests, they could never figure out what was wrong w/ it. Nose shattered by the 2x world heavyweight kickboxing champion, Mark Graden, in my early 20's. Again, out classed. He had no business fighting in a local tournament. Then about 6 yrs ago, a drunk driver struck me from behind, while changing a tire on the side of the interstate. He actually pinned me between my car, & his. I had pulled myself out between the 2 cars. I'm very lucky to be alive, thank god. So, believe me I know your feeling. But, been thinking about fighting again, & was thinking that Bogu might be a way to go, so that way, I dont end up going to work w/ a broken nose, bloody lip, etc, the next day.
2) I know most Thai boxers only do this stuff for no more than about 5 yrs on average. While, I'm not saying I'm a Thai boxer, after 28 yrs of doing this stuff, it sure gets to you. So, maybe I should not even consider fighting again. It's a hard decision to make.

David



1) We might have to start calling you "Mr. Glass" ;)

2) Many Muay Thai boxers start at a very young age......around 7~10 years old and many fight way into their late 20's.

dsomers
3rd February 2006, 22:47
lol, funny! Thanks for the info on the Thai guys, I'm just going on everything I heard. Even so, I have been through alot of injuries, maybe too many?

David

koeikannidan
3rd February 2006, 22:51
when I say Honbu, I use the tern that Brian Frost uses to describe his dojo. Remember in the USA he is the top ranked yudansha in Koeikan. So I am just going by what he has to say. No matter what anyone may say when it comes to Koeikan in the US his word is like the word of god.

Splinter group, I recieved my ranking from Sensei Frost so that makes my rank pure Koeikan. regardless of what happened after the fact.

thanks,
Troy M Spees

koeikannidan
3rd February 2006, 22:53
Robert,
what do you know of kancho Onishi and the kendo gaku style? I know nothing thats why I am asking. Koeikan and kendogaku were always kept pretty much seperate.
any info on this would be appreciated

thanks
Troy M Spees

RobertRousselot
3rd February 2006, 23:22
1) when I say Honbu, I use the tern that Brian Frost uses to describe his dojo.
2) Remember in the USA he is the top ranked yudansha in Koeikan. So I am just going by what he has to say.
3) No matter what anyone may say when it comes to Koeikan in the US his word is like the word of god.

Splinter group, I recieved my ranking from Sensei Frost so that makes my rank pure Koeikan. regardless of what happened after the fact.

thanks,
Troy M Spees

1) He uses it incorrectly.
2) This may be true but it makes no difference.
3) :rolleyes:

Rob Alvelais
3rd February 2006, 23:37
Not really but I do know improperly used Japanese terms when I see them.
Honbu in Japanese roughly means “Headquarters” or “main branch”.
So if you call something “Honbu” for a style it is where the head of that style is.


Hi Robert,

I've no dog in this fight, just a point of lingusitic curiosity. Would it be appropriate to say, "USA Honbu" to indicate the "Main USA branch?"


Rob

RobertRousselot
3rd February 2006, 23:42
Hi Robert,

I've no dog in this fight, just a point of lingusitic curiosity. Would it be appropriate to say, "USA Honbu" to indicate the "Main USA branch?"


Rob



I have never heard of a style having 2 honbu, however I think as David pointed out Beikoku So Hombu might be possible.
Something like that would most likely be up to the head of the style.
But to say "honbu" for the US dojo is incorrect.

koeikannidan
3rd February 2006, 23:45
Robert,
If one wants to be picky and fussy about technical terms then I guess you are right robert. But If the head of a system in the US wants to term his dojo the USA headquarters then that is his/her right.

So, what do you know about the kendo gaku robert? You seem to have ignored that question? do you know alot? You are probably an expert on it like all of the other issues we have discussed.

Back to the bogu thing, take a shot without your armor and tell me if it is the same as with the armor. You just cannot make the argument that it is the same way of taking contact with bogu on as without it.

just what are your credentials by the way?

thanks
Troy M Spees

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 00:09
Robert,
1) If one wants to be picky and fussy about technical terms then I guess you are right robert.
2) But If the head of a system in the US wants to term his dojo the USA headquarters then that is his/her right.
3) So, what do you know about the kendo gaku robert? You seem to have ignored that question? do you know alot? You are probably an expert on it like all of the other issues we have discussed.
4) Back to the bogu thing, take a shot without your armor and tell me if it is the same as with the armor. You just cannot make the argument that it is the same way of taking contact with bogu on as without it.
5) just what are your credentials by the way?

thanks
Troy M Spees

1) Yes, I guess it would be asking too much to have someone use a word correctly. That’s why I use the word TaiChi for Judo…….because I think too many people are “picky and fussy”. :rolleyes:
2) He can call it anything he like in English if it makes sense, however, he misused the Japanese term. So he can learn and grow or refuse to learn and make the same mistake.
3) Judging by your insistence I thought it was a “loaded question” and will take my time answering it when I feel like it.
4) Never said it was. You were the one that said you can’t move with it on and the main point was to “suck it up and blast through”……..I disagreed based on many years of learning not to.
5) In what? Martial arts? Look around….you’ll find them.

George Kohler
4th February 2006, 00:57
I have never heard of a style having 2 honbu, however I think as David pointed out Beikoku So Hombu might be possible.
Something like that would most likely be up to the head of the style.
But to say "honbu" for the US dojo is incorrect.

The Hontai Yoshin-ryu uses the term "Honbu" for their branches outside of Japan. These links are from the official Hontai Yoshin-ryu website. The main dojo in Japan uses So-Honbu.

http://www11.plala.or.jp/hyrhonbu/eca.htm
http://www11.plala.or.jp/hyrhonbu/ebe.htm
http://www11.plala.or.jp/hyrhonbu/eau.htm
http://www11.plala.or.jp/hyrhonbu/eita.htm

dsomers
4th February 2006, 01:26
The RKHSK also uses the term Beikoku So Hombu, you can see it here: http://www.okinawakobudo.com/

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 02:17
thanks guys for giving such good feedback.
You see robert your not altogether right. I have a feeling that you tend to need to feel as if you are right most of the time. just a feeling thats all.

I dont ask loaded questions, if I ask one I am being honest and trying to learn something maybe you have been around some messed up people who do such things, I dont know.

I do see you are very nitpicky however. thank you for your input and lets put this to bed.

thanks for you time
Troy M Spees

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 06:26
The Hontai Yoshin-ryu uses the term "Honbu" for their branches outside of Japan. These links are from the official Hontai Yoshin-ryu website. The main dojo in Japan uses So-Honbu.

http://www11.plala.or.jp/hyrhonbu/eca.htm
http://www11.plala.or.jp/hyrhonbu/ebe.htm
http://www11.plala.or.jp/hyrhonbu/eau.htm
http://www11.plala.or.jp/hyrhonbu/eita.htm

Uh.....not really.......
Looks like more foreigners using it incorrectly on their websites.

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 06:33
thanks guys for giving such good feedback.
1) You see robert your not altogether right.
2) I have a feeling that you tend to need to feel as if you are right most of the time. just a feeling thats all.
3) I dont ask loaded questions, if I ask one I am being honest and trying to learn something maybe you have been around some messed up people who do such things, I dont know.

I do see you are very nitpicky however. thank you for your input and lets put this to bed.

thanks for you time
Troy M Spees

1) Actually I am correct. All his post showed was a few more individuals that use a word incorrectly.
2) When I am wrong I freely admit it………..this case I am not.
3) Seems kinda odd you would ask someone from outside of your own style about aspects that you probably should know…..being a “nidan” and all.
4) Not all all. It’s funny how I see things on a post that I DO know about, mention that it’s incorrect to said individual, in this case Japanese Lang., they claim I am incorrect even though they are most likely not fluent in Japanese lang. themselves and then call me “knitpcky”. I think you need to swallow some pride and admit you don’t know how to use the word correctly.

George Kohler
4th February 2006, 07:17
Uh.....not really.......
Looks like more foreigners using it incorrectly on their websites.

Uh...not really...

That website is the So-honbu website, the Official Website of the Hontai Yoshin-ryu. See for yourself http://www.hontaiyoshinryu.com/

Then click on English

The click on the branches above.

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 07:27
Uh...not really...

That website is the So-honbu website, the Official Website of the Hontai Yoshin-ryu. See for yourself http://www.hontaiyoshinryu.com/

Then click on English

The click on the branches above.


How about this........You go to the same website in Japanese and for those exact same people it says "Shi BU" (branch) and NOT "honbu".
Only half of the omnes on the English page say "honbu" AND none on the Japanese say "honbu".......kinda interesting.

I am afraid you are going to have to come up with something better as an example.....


If you are going to use the word from a foreign language learn what it means

George Kohler
4th February 2006, 07:33
How about this........You go to the same website in Japanese and for those exact same people it says "Shi BU" (branch) and NOT "honbu".

I am afraid you are going to have to come up with something better as an example.....

It is still on the official Hontai Yoshin-ryu website.

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 07:34
It is still on the official Hontai Yoshin-ryu website.


Re-read my post after the edit

George Kohler
4th February 2006, 07:37
Re-read my post after the edit

Like I said, it is still on the Official Hontai Yoshin-ryu Website.

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 07:40
Robert,
You need to swallow a little pride as you seem to be again a very know it all minded kind of person. I trained under sensei frost for almost twenty years and I think he knows if its ok to use the word honbu. In case you didnt know he was uchi deshi to kancho Onishi. You are wrong in this case and you should admit it. Or at least keep your negative comments to yourself.
And again I ask what ARE your so called qualifications to make and pass judgement on others as you seem so readily to do so? You dont seem to be able to answer that question. In response to your reply earlier " look up my qualifications" I really dont care what they are or who you think you are or who you might be other than the fact that you tend to be very rude and overbearing when writing to others. One of the precepts of Budo is humility and you dont seem to have any idea as to what that is. Again, why dont you call Sensei Brian Frost and tell him his dojo is not what he claims it to be? You would not get far in that endeavor I fear.

You are the one who needs to learn humility my friend.
the only reason I asked you about kendo gaku was that you claim your dojo is in japan. If anyone knows anything about Koeikan as you dont. then they also know that Kancho Onishi started a seperate curriculum that was given the name of kendo gaku. this was not Koeikan but another art he started. I know nothing about this art. You claimed to know something about it so I asked, but your response was again rude and demeaning. So I am sorry to have asked you about it. You are in japan teaching? I thought they tended to be a little more polite over there? You sure havent learned from them.

Get a life............. and if you are going to spout off at the mouth please validate who and what you are. otherwise keep it to your self.

Thanks
Troy M Spees

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 07:43
Like I said, it is still on the Official Hontai Yoshin-ryu Website.


Yes, and oddly enough the Japanese version is correct for all the dojo and says "shi bu" where as the English version is not in the case of Australia, Belgium, Canada, and Italy.

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 07:50
go to the site see it for yourself. Sensei Frost trained in Japan with Kancho Onishi. He was an Uchi deshi. I think he knows what he is talking about. look at the site. Its there to see. Sensei Frost won the all Japan Koeikan Bogu championship in 1972. He knows just a little bit about what he teaches. I have a feeling you cant compare to what he has to offer.

when you said something about foreigners useing the word the wrong way do you mean to tell me with a name like yours that you are of japanese descent?
Never heard of a japanese name spelled like that. Thats a new one to me.

Thanks
Troy M Spees

go to the site
www.koeikan.com

George Kohler
4th February 2006, 08:00
I should also point out that on the Hontai Yoshin-ryu USA branch website www.hyrusa.com , in the Members Page (http://www.hyrusa.com/members.html) it lists Dr. Stephen Fabian as the Honbu-cho.

Please bear in mind that the organization that I belong to only has one Honbu, which is where our headquarters is. The only reason why I am even getting involved is because I remembered the official Hontai Yoshin-ryu website and thought it was odd as well.

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 08:00
Robert,
1)You need to swallow a little pride as you seem to be again a very know it all minded kind of person. I trained under sensei frost for almost twenty years and I think he knows if its ok to use the word honbu. In case you didnt know he was uchi deshi to kancho Onishi.
2) You are wrong in this case and you should admit it. Or at least keep your negative comments to yourself.
3) And again I ask what ARE your so called qualifications to make and pass judgement on others as you seem so readily to do so? You dont seem to be able to answer that question. In response to your reply earlier " look up my qualifications" I really dont care what they are or who you think you are or who you might be other than the fact that you tend to be very rude and overbearing when writing to others.
4) One of the precepts of Budo is humility and you dont seem to have any idea as to what that is. Again, why dont you call Sensei Brian Frost and tell him his dojo is not what he claims it to be? You would not get far in that endeavor I fear.

You are the one who needs to learn humility my friend.
5) the only reason I asked you about kendo gaku was that you claim your dojo is in japan.
6) If anyone knows anything about Koeikan as you dont. then they also know that Kancho Onishi started a seperate curriculum that was given the name of kendo gaku. this was not Koeikan but another art he started. I know nothing about this art.
6) You claimed to know something about it so I asked, but your response was again rude and demeaning. So I am sorry to have asked you about it.
7) You are in japan teaching? I thought they tended to be a little more polite over there? You sure havent learned from them.

Get a life............. and if you are going to spout off at the mouth please validate who and what you are. otherwise keep it to your self.

Thanks
Troy M Spees

1) Uh yeah…..let’s see. You don’t speak Japanese - I do, you are arguing a point you know nothing about.
2) See #1
3) You were never specific about what qualifications so how could I answer….My answer to that was go look for yourself……see the webpage under my signature. However, if you are too lazy then……..As for bogu….I hold a 6th dan in a style that does bogu quite a bit, as for Japanese- well lets see….I studied Japanese in Japan for years….I have lived in Japan for almost 18 years and use it everyday not only at home but for my job. So Im thinkn' maybe just maybe I know a bit more Japanese than you do.
4) My point to you exactly. I obviously have more Japanese knowledge than you and yet you still want to tell me I am wrong………….that’s kinda funny don’t ya think…
5) I don’t “claim” to be here I am here. Any Mod can tell by my IP address where I am.
6) Did I????
7) One thing that is not looked highly upon here is when discussing some subject you don’t know anything about and the other person does you don’t tell them they are wrong since you haven’t the slightest idea about the subject. Not only is it impolite it shows a lack of common sense.

I am still waiting for you to support your claim about bogu and it being nothing more than “sucking it up and blasting through”.

So shall we keep discussing your lack of Japanese ability or the topic of this thread which is bogu???

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 08:07
1) go to the site see it for yourself. Sensei Frost trained in Japan with Kancho Onishi. He was an Uchi deshi. I think he knows what he is talking about. look at the site. Its there to see.
2) Sensei Frost won the all Japan Koeikan Bogu championship in 1972. He knows just a little bit about what he teaches. I have a feeling you cant compare to what he has to offer.
3) when you said something about foreigners useing the word the wrong way do you mean to tell me with a name like yours that you are of japanese descent?
Never heard of a japanese name spelled like that. Thats a new one to me.

Thanks
Troy M Spees

go to the site
www.koeikan.com

1) That was never in debate
2) And “suck it and blast through” is the best thing he can teach you in bogu? Sounds like you must have missed some lesson he may have been teaching. OR maybe he doesn’t think that you should “suck it and blast through” and that is only your opinion on the matter.
3) This the best defense you can come up with for your lack of Japanese Lang. skill??? You asked me to post my qualifications (I’m quessing it was for Japanese) re-read them.

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 08:12
I should also point out that on the Hontai Yoshin-ryu USA branch website www.hyrusa.com , in the Members Page (http://www.hyrusa.com/members.html) it lists Dr. Stephen Fabian as the Honbu-cho.

Please bear in mind that the organization that I belong to only has one Honbu, which is where our headquarters is. The only reason why I am even getting involved is because I remembered the official Hontai Yoshin-ryu website and thought it was odd as well.


and oddly enough list him as a "shi bu" (branch) on the Japanese site.

Obviously the Japanese think he is a "shi bu" and not a "honbu"....or they most likely would have written so.

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 08:22
You claim to have trained 26 years with bogu and I have trained at least twenty. So we both have a little knowledge on the subject. I disagree with you thats all. That does not make you right nor superior to me because I dont agree with your bogu theory. Again, I say this, take a shot with out your armor on. Its not going to be like it was with your bogu on. You probably will not be able to withstand that shot at first. Its much better to get used to the real thing if you are going to claim real fighting abilities. Chuck Liddel who is one of the MMA champs started his training out in santa barbara with sensei jack sabbat in Koeikan. MY brother trains with Chuck when he is here in Las Vegas and Chuck feels the same about bogu. He does not like it at all, And he won the US black belt division one year in mens bogu that was held in koeikans national championship in new jersey. Bogu is just not realistic. you cannot gauge what it is like to take a full frontal face shot and shrug it off and continue to fight by training with bogu. its not possible. I am very experienced with this type of training. I did my share of bogu and I did my share of full contact with just gloves and a mouth piece and shin protectors and groin cup on. and I have to say I learned much more with out that outdated samurai headgear tied around my head.

Thanks
Troy M Spees

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 08:35
1) I dont agree with your bogu theory.
2) Again, I say this, take a shot with out your armor on. Its not going to be like it was with your bogu on.
3) You probably will not be able to withstand that shot at first. Its much better to get used to the real thing if you are going to claim real fighting abilities. Chuck Liddel who is one of the MMA champs started his training out in santa barbara with sensei jack sabbat in Koeikan. MY brother trains with Chuck when he is here in Las Vegas and Chuck feels the same about bogu. He does not like it at all, And he won the US black belt division one year in mens bogu that was held in koeikans national championship in new jersey.
4) Bogu is just not realistic. you cannot gauge what it is like to take a full frontal face shot and shrug it off and continue to fight by training with bogu. its not possible. I am very experienced with this type of training.
5) I did my share of bogu and I did my share of full contact with just gloves and a mouth piece and shin protectors and groin cup on. and I have to say I learned much more with out that outdated samurai headgear tied around my head.

Thanks
Troy M Spees

1) So what is your theory for bogu then?
2) That was never a point of the discussion. I prefer not to get hit with or with out bogu…..which was my point.
3) Actually I know very well what it’s like to get hit without the bogu head gear. I belong to a Muay Thai/Pride gym that has several Pros training there.
4) Obviously on a real fight is “real”. Bogu is meant as a safe simulation in order to enhance skills used at speed. As far as taking full shots to the face……is it needed? I mean do I need to get shot first so I know a bullet proof vest might save my life?
5) So why stop there? Why don’t you just take the gloves, mouth guard and cup and throw them in the trash and go bare knuckle…….

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 08:37
7. One thing that is not looked highly upon here is when discussing some subject you don’t know anything about and the other person does you don’t tell them they are wrong since you haven’t the slightest idea about the subject. Not only is it impolite it shows a lack of common sense.

where do you get that notion? one thing that is looked down upon is arrogance and you seem to be full of it. I know plenty about what this conversation is about. I really feel sorry for your students though. They must be a miserable lot having to deal with your intolerance.

thanks
Troy M spees

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 08:40
7. One thing that is not looked highly upon here is when discussing some subject you don’t know anything about and the other person does you don’t tell them they are wrong since you haven’t the slightest idea about the subject. Not only is it impolite it shows a lack of common sense.

where do you get that notion? one thing that is looked down upon is arrogance and you seem to be full of it. I know plenty about what this conversation is about. I really feel sorry for your students though. They must be a miserable lot having to deal with your intolerance.

thanks
Troy M spees
I don’t know who looks dumber……me or you.
I mean here you are arguing about a language you know next to nothing about and here I am arguing about a word in Japanese with someone who doesn’t even speak the language.

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 08:41
that is my bottom line. it doesnt work. its antiquated. We grew, learned more. bogu is a dinnosaur. that is my position on bogu. Can I get it any more clear to you? Or do you need more?

I hope you can learn to grow and develop effective fighting abilities. you wont with that thing tied around your throat.

but then again, some people tend to be like dinnosaurs. and they never change. and you are a master of japanese language as well and like to tell everyone as much. again arrogance not humility like you should have been taught. You have a sense of being better than others. thats not the way of budo. sorry but your wrong if you think it is...............

take care, I am done with you.

thanks for the discussion
Troy M Spees

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 08:45
1) that is my bottom line. it doesnt work. its antiquated. We grew, learned more. bogu is a dinnosaur. that is my position on bogu. Can I get it any more clear to you? Or do you need more?

2) I hope you can learn to grow and develop effective fighting abilities. you wont with that thing tied around your throat.

but then again, some people tend to be like dinnosaurs. and they never change.

3) take care, I am done with you.

thanks for the discussion
Troy M Spees

1) so you are saying bogu has nothing to teach?? Nothing at all? Interesting.
2) Well maybe that was your problem….you see I tie mine around my head not my throat.
3) Just when it was getting interesting.

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 08:49
bogu teachs improper technique, how to get hit, how to be slow responding, its a lesson in pain, it chokes you, the straps are too tight around the neck. it DOES NOT TEACH YOU HOW TO FIGHT IN THE REAL WORLD.
oh and yes its a thing of the past, its from another time. and please dont use the samurai thing on me. I know they were from another time too, but you cannot carry your sword on the street anymore either.
Now I am done with you,
thanks for the conversation
Troy M Spees

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 08:55
1) bogu teachs improper technique, how to get hit, how to be slow responding,
2) its a lesson in pain, it chokes you, the straps are too tight around the neck. it DOES NOT TEACH YOU HOW TO FIGHT IN THE REAL WORLD.
3) oh and yes its a thing of the past, its from another time. and please dont use the samurai thing on me. I know they were from another time too, but you cannot carry your sword on the street anymore either.
4) Now I am done with you,
thanks for the conversation
Troy M Spees

1) For example?
2) Sounds like you just got sour grapes from getting your butt kicked
3) I think you were the only one here that mentioned “samurai”.
4) That’s what you said last time.

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 09:17
1. I kicked as much butt as I had kicked. If you think you are somesort of terminator and have never had your a-- handed to you then you got another thing coming. Maybe thats your problem, you get your a-- stomped on a regular basis and are still trying to catch up with the rest of the kyu gai in your class. your a very rude little person. and you are probably a DI for a sensei if you even know that much. you seem like some sort of bar fighter that likes to beat the hell out of people that pay him to teach them. thats it you like to hurt beginers dont you? you say your a rokudan? well I will tell you this, we in Koeikan kept our rank lower than most systems as we were superior to most of the others out there. you say you have 26 years under your belt? I have almost 23. so figure the math bully boy. Our bogu could have destroyed yours anyway. sorry to say it but its true. my rank of nidan would have bee more like yondan or godan had I pursued it. so no, I didnt get my butt kicked like you so eloguently said. I learned and learned to fight. and I also learned to not like people like yourself

Now I am finished with you,
please dont bother me again, or I will report you.
thank you
Troy M Spees

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 11:11
1) I kicked as much butt as I had kicked.
2) If you think you are somesort of terminator and have never had your a-- handed to you then you got another thing coming.
3) Maybe thats your problem, you get your a-- stomped on a regular basis and are still trying to catch up with the rest of the kyu gai in your class. your a very rude little person. and you are probably a DI for a sensei if you even know that much. you seem like some sort of bar fighter that likes to beat the hell out of people that pay him to teach them. thats it you like to hurt beginers dont you?
4) you say your a rokudan? well I will tell you this, we in Koeikan kept our rank lower than most systems as we were superior to most of the others out there.
5) you say you have 26 years under your belt? I have almost 23. so figure the math bully boy.
6) Our bogu could have destroyed yours anyway. sorry to say it but its true. my rank of nidan would have bee more like yondan or godan had I pursued it. so no, I didnt get my butt kicked like you so eloguently said. I learned and learned to fight. and I also learned to not like people like yourself
7) Now I am finished with you,
8) please dont bother me again, or I will report you.
thank you
Troy M Spees

1) Of course you did.
2) You are projecting your own unsubstantiated opinion into this topic.
3) Same as #2. You have no factual evidence to base an opinion on so you make things up to fit your angry mood.
4) I didn’t give it to myself so if you have a problem with it take it up with my teacher.
5) You seem to be upset about something now by calling me names not once but several times. By the way its 26 years in my present style…..I didn’t mention I had started in this style after training in another for a while.
6) *YAWN* More chest pounding I see.
7) You have said that 3 times already.
8) You’ll “report” me….for what? Replying to your comments???

IchiRiKen1
4th February 2006, 11:29
bogu teachs improper technique, how to get hit, how to be slow responding, its a lesson in pain, it chokes you, the straps are too tight around the neck.

Wow. When you bitch and complain you really let go, don't you?


it DOES NOT TEACH YOU HOW TO FIGHT IN THE REAL WORLD.

Oh no! He said the "REAL WORLD" words!!! You're right, it's useless... :rolleyes: Of course, the fact that when I did it for the first time I learned TONS about what mistakes I was making facing off against a partner who wasn't trying to just tap me still fails to support the utility of bogu training, right?


oh and yes its a thing of the past, its from another time.

So's "karotty," don't you think? I mean, really, I can take out as many bad guys as I have bullets in my ultra-modern firearms, so learning to fight with my bare hands, unarmed, is pointless, don't you think? It's so antiquated, after all, what with the prevalence of firearms and other modern methods of dispatching an attacker...

Isn't dressing up in foreign garb, referring to archaic shadow-boxing methods and other "fighting" techniques in languages we can't speak (or typically even pronounce correctly), and observing cultural etiquette forms that are completely alien to us kind of silly too? Shouldn't we just do away with all of that while we're at it?


and please dont use the samurai thing on me. I know they were from another time too, but you cannot carry your sword on the street anymore either.

I don't recall anyone saying "samurai" other than you...

The purpose of different aspects of training is to address certain specific needs. Makiwara teaches solid stance and body action (it isn't to toughen your knuckles); kata teach rhythm, distance and timing as well as codifying technical information for ease of communication and serving as a tool to encourage a student to think "out of the box;" bogu sparring (and other similar forms of sparring) allow a safe method of going full out to see if the student really is employing proper body action, power generation, etc., against a human (instead of an inanimate object that doesn't hit back); et frikkin' cetera.

For 20+ years of training in martial arts, you really haven't grasped the bigger picture, have you?

IchiRiKen1
4th February 2006, 11:39
1. I kicked as much butt as I had kicked. If you think you are somesort of terminator and have never had your a-- handed to you then you got another thing coming.

Uh, yeah, that's it... :rolleyes:


Maybe thats your problem, you get your a-- stomped on a regular basis and are still trying to catch up with the rest of the kyu gai in your class.

Um, no...


your a very rude little person.

Even Confucius advised to have no traffic with fools... Of three men, one will teach you, one will be your peer, and the third is useless. Guess which of the three you're turning out to be?


and you are probably a DI for a sensei if you even know that much.

He's actually rather quiet and quite tolerant of honest mistakes that students endeavor to correct.


you seem like some sort of bar fighter that likes to beat the hell out of people that pay him to teach them.

Been to the bar with him... He doesn't fight there. It gets in the way of drinking. :beer:


thats it you like to hurt beginers dont you?

He hasn't "hurt" anyone that I've seen, though application of pain comes with learning martial arts, don't you think? Or do you go in for the painless training concept?


you say your a rokudan? well I will tell you this, we in Koeikan kept our rank lower than most systems as we were superior to most of the others out there.

Said like a real beginner... "We're better than everyone else, which is why our X-dan is equal to an X+5 dan in any other school." Puh-lease. :rolleyes: You are what you are, and in this case you're a nidan in a splinter school that "broke away" from its mother school likely over a case of ego or money issues...


you say you have 26 years under your belt? I have almost 23. so figure the math bully boy.

What's your point?


Our bogu could have destroyed yours anyway. sorry to say it but its true.

Can your dad kick my dad's butt, too? :p


my rank of nidan would have bee more like yondan or godan had I pursued it.

Ah, but you didn't, did you? So nidan you remain, more or less...


so no, I didnt get my butt kicked like you so eloguently said.

Sure, McFly. Whatever. :rolleyes:


I learned and learned to fight. and I also learned to not like people like yourself

Why? Because some people won't play nice with you, won't sit back and allow you to make comments that sound authoritative but are only subjective opinions, won't let your ego set itself up as some kind of important person when you're just another fish in a little pond?


Now I am finished with you,

That's like the third time you've said that... :rolleyes:


please dont bother me again, or I will report you.

Um!!! He's gonna tell!!!

Whatever, dude... :rolleyes: You sound more like a cornered 13 year old than you do a "yondan or godan." Get over yourself.

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 13:35
1) Even Confucius advised to have no traffic with fools... Of three men, one will teach you, one will be your peer, and the third is useless. Guess which of the three you're turning out to be?
2) He's actually rather quiet and quite tolerant of honest mistakes that students endeavor to correct.
3) Been to the bar with him... He doesn't fight there. It gets in the way of drinking. :beer:
4) He hasn't "hurt" anyone that I've seen, though application of pain comes with learning martial arts, don't you think? Or do you go in for the painless training concept?
5) Said like a real beginner... "We're better than everyone else, which is why our X-dan is equal to an X+5 dan in any other school." Puh-lease. :rolleyes: You are what you are, and in this case you're a nidan in a splinter school that "broke away" from its mother school likely over a case of ego or money issues...
6) Ah, but you didn't, did you? So nidan you remain, more or less...
7) Why? Because some people won't play nice with you, won't sit back and allow you to make comments that sound authoritative but are only subjective opinions, won't let your ego set itself up as some kind of important person when you're just another fish in a little pond?
8) That's like the third time you've said that... :rolleyes:

Whatever, dude... :rolleyes: You sound more like a cornered 13 year old than you do a "yondan or godan." Get over yourself.

1) I keep forgetting that one! I need to write that down and post it on my PC so I will know who to avoid on these forums.
2) I like it how Troy/koeikannidan has never stepped foot in my dojo, knows basically nothing about me and yet feels the need to come up with such BS about me.
3) True.
4) Same as #2.
5) Right on the money.
6) I love it when people put so much emphasis on rank. :rolleyes:
7) Matt, this is what happens 10 out of 10 when folks get on here and can’t support their comments for whatever reason(s). When that happens they fall back on trying to discredit the other person with character assignation.
8) DO I hear 4???

hectokan
4th February 2006, 14:05
1)
3) Actually I know very well what it’s like to get hit without the bogu head gear. I belong to a Muay Thai/Pride gym that has several Pros training there.


So would these pro fighters at the Muaythai/pride gym be better prepared for their fights if they practiced with bogu equipment?Would they be better fighters if they trained with bogu?

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 14:11
So would these pro fighters at the Muaythai/pride gym be better prepared for their fights if they practiced with bogu equipment?Would they be better fighters if they trained with bogu?


So before I answer lets get another Japanese lesson out of the way.

Bogu= protective equipment...i.e headgear, gloves, shin pads etc.

Most wear some variation of boxing type head gear if the wear anything.Some don't.
All wear head gear, gloves and shin pads for heavy sparring

hectokan
4th February 2006, 14:16
So before I answer lets get another Japanese lesson out of the way.



Most wear some variation of boxing type head gear if the wear anything.
Some don't.
All wear gloves and shin pads.

So why would they not wear the older type kendo headgear helmet?

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 14:18
So why would they not wear the older type kendo headgear helmet?


I don't know, I didn't ask them.

hectokan
4th February 2006, 14:37
I don't know, I didn't ask them.

Most are probably a lot younger than you and are simply just following the traditions(lol yes I said it) of the standard boxing headgear wear for training fighters.Somewhere down the line most every boxing or muaythai gym trainer or coach opted to go with the standard open face headgear instead of a kendo type head gear for a reason.

There is a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ involved here and the fight game people could care less about traditions,if they feel that the kendo type headgear would provide better results,I think they would jump on it without batting a eyelash.

What exactly are you allowed to do in the bogu/kendo gear type sparring rules that your are not allowed to do in say muaythai sparring?if both disciplines are wearing boxing gloves?

Tommy_P
4th February 2006, 17:04
I have an honest question if I may butt in for a second. As I said I know a Koei Kan instructor and he is very into the whole Bogu thing. Obviously being a Shotokan stylist I don't have to tell you how much experience I have with this armor :) :rolleyes: However I never use protection of any kind. Along with my Shotokan I have also trained for quite a few years in Kyokushin. The guy who runs the Kyokushin school has been to the Koei Kan dojo to train and for him, as I would imagine any full contact fighter, he wasn't impressed.

Personally I have no clue as I've never tried it. I would think that a mix of protective gear and bare knuckle sparring would be best. Sometimes gear and sometimes not. I can see the benefit of the gear.
My question is how much harder are the Bogu practitioners hitting than Kyokushin type bare knuckle fighters? I mean besides the punches to the face and head issue. If they're not hitting harder then it's not a way to actually use full on blows other than to the head.
I can tell you I have been rocked, and I mean rocked by shots in the past bare knuckle.

I'm just curious.

Thanks

Tommy

hectokan
4th February 2006, 18:04
I have an honest question if I may butt in for a second. As I said I know a Koei Kan instructor and he is very into the whole Bogu thing. Obviously being a Shotokan stylist I don't have to tell you how much experience I have with this armor :) :rolleyes: However I never use protection of any kind. Along with my Shotokan I have also trained for quite a few years in Kyokushin. The guy who runs the Kyokushin school has been to the Koei Kan dojo to train and for him, as I would imagine any full contact fighter, he wasn't impressed.

Personally I have no clue as I've never tried it. I would think that a mix of protective gear and bare knuckle sparring would be best. Sometimes gear and sometimes not. I can see the benefit of the gear.
My question is how much harder are the Bogu practitioners hitting than Kyokushin type bare knuckle fighters? I mean besides the punches to the face and head issue. If they're not hitting harder then it's not a way to actually use full on blows other than to the head.
I can tell you I have been rocked, and I mean rocked by shots in the past bare knuckle.

I'm just curious.

Thanks

Tommy

Tommy,

Those are some real good questions about training with or without equipment.To start off with I was also a shotokan practicioner back in the day and the only down side to sparring wether it's the kyokushin type fullcontact or shotokan type class sparring is the actual face punches that are for the most part omitted or thrown with control(not real realistic)not that you don't get your bell rung from time to time by accident instead of by design.

There is no doubt that kyokushin karate is a tough full contact type of fighting style but one of the main reasons why you have so many splinter groups is because some of it's practicioners would also like to experience contact to the head type training and competiton.Organization like K1 and shidokan address those issues and the founding fathers of those splinter groups happen to all be past kyokushin practicioners.

If you want to make full contact head shots part of your training regimen then boxing gloves seem to be the way to go.That's not to say that you can't go all out without boxing gloves but it would be few and far between training sessions to get any real effective and productive training done,since we would all be too busy recovering from broken teeth and facial laceration injuries.

Tommy_P
4th February 2006, 18:30
Thanks Hector but does this mean that all you would need is headgear then? I'm curious as to how much harder can they be hitting to the body/legs with the gear on as opposed to the bare knuckle full contact sparring.

Tommy

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 18:49
1) Of course you did.
2) You are projecting your own unsubstantiated opinion into this topic.
3) Same as #2. You have no factual evidence to base an opinion on so you make things up to fit your angry mood.
4) I didn’t give it to myself so if you have a problem with it take it up with my teacher.
5) You seem to be upset about something now by calling me names not once but several times. By the way its 26 years in my present style…..I didn’t mention I had started in this style after training in another for a while.
6) *YAWN* More chest pounding I see.
7) You have said that 3 times already.
8) You’ll “report” me….for what? Replying to your comments???
__________________
1. you dont have the ground to question my bogo ablities nor experiences.
2. I am giving my opinion on the subject, bogo is outdated and useless
3. I am not angry, you were rude so Now I am rude to you in return
4. I just asked your rank thats all. dont care about it one way or another
5. your the one who keeps saying negative things. accusations. I just fired back. sorry if you cant take it
6. you seem like the dojo gorrilla not me

bottom line bogu is out dated and mostly useless
sorry to have ruined your day by responding to your and your buddies pounding but I was in bed sleeping. You wont be finished with me that easy mr bogu man.

thanks
Troy

hectokan
4th February 2006, 19:55
Thanks Hector but does this mean that all you would need is headgear then? I'm curious as to how much harder can they be hitting to the body/legs with the gear on as opposed to the bare knuckle full contact sparring.

Tommy

Two different ways to train I guess,not that one is absolutely better than the other,it's just that one allows you to do what the other does not.I have trained in both and I have noticed the strength and weaknesses of both.

hectokan
4th February 2006, 20:08
I'm curious as to how much harder can they be hitting to the body/legs with the gear on as opposed to the bare knuckle full contact sparring.

Tommy

The boxing glove and headgear protection is more for head contact protection than anything else.It's obvious that the kykoushin full contact type sparring from the neck down is just downright brutal and effective.If head punches would be allowed in a kyokushin match it would change the dynamics of how two contestanst end up standing toe to toe for 30 seconds while exhanging full body blows.So as you can see it changes the whole complexity of a full contact match.

I guess the same principle would apply if you add head shots to a olympic tae-kwon-do match.it would definitely change the completion of the fight.

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 20:40
1) I keep forgetting that one! I need to write that down and post it on my PC so I will know who to avoid on these forums.
2) I like it how Troy/koeikannidan has never stepped foot in my dojo, knows basically nothing about me and yet feels the need to come up with such BS about me.
3) True.
4) Same as #2.
5) Right on the money.
6) I love it when people put so much emphasis on rank. :rolleyes:
7) Matt, this is what happens 10 out of 10 when folks get on here and can’t support their comments for whatever reason(s). When that happens they fall back on trying to discredit the other person with character assignation.
8) DO I hear 4???
I CAN SUPPORT ALL OF THE POSTS I HAVE WRITTEN. CAN YOU?

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 20:44
Or Do You Need To Be Nasty About What You Have To Say All Of The Time? I Have Been Very Polite Except When Attacked By You Or My Qualifications Have Been Questioned.
So Give It Up. Or At Least Be Polite When You Answer Back.
Troy M Spees

koeikannidan
4th February 2006, 21:03
Matt what is the bigger picture? and my posts were not directed at yourself. but I see you have a problem being rude and trying to assert your percieved authority as well. Sorry to hear that you have a case of being better than others as robert has as well. or maybe you train with him? what ever the case I know what I am talking about. and dont give me this SPLINTER GROUP nonsense. My rank came from Sensei Brian Frost, for those of you who dont know who he is. He is the chief instructor of Koeikan in the USA.

thanks
Troy M Spes

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 22:05
What exactly are you allowed to do in the bogu/kendo gear type sparring rules that your are not allowed to do in say muaythai sparring?if both disciplines are wearing boxing gloves?


Using Muay Thai rules you are not allowed to do certain throws. Only some throws are allowed in Muay Thai. In my dojo I let students use almost any kind of throw.

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 22:11
1)
1. you dont have the ground to question my bogo ablities nor experiences.
2. I am giving my opinion on the subject, bogo is outdated and useless
3. I am not angry, you were rude so Now I am rude to you in return
4. I just asked your rank thats all. dont care about it one way or another
5. your the one who keeps saying negative things. accusations. I just fired back. sorry if you cant take it
6. you seem like the dojo gorrilla not me

7) bottom line bogu is out dated and mostly useless
sorry to have ruined your day by responding to your and your buddies pounding but I was in bed sleeping. You wont be finished with me that easy mr bogu man.

thanks
Troy

1) Whatever :rolleyes:
2) Yes, and when asked why you don’t supply much in the way of answer.
3) :rolleyes:
4) Then why ask?
5) Sure you did. :rolleyes:
6) :rolleyes:
7) You’re the one that keeps claiming you are done and then keep coming back.

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 22:13
I CAN SUPPORT ALL OF THE POSTS I HAVE WRITTEN. CAN YOU?


Like the Nike T-Shirt says: "Do it"

hectokan
4th February 2006, 22:35
Using Muay Thai rules you are not allowed to do certain throws. Only some throws are allowed in Muay Thai. In my dojo I let students use almost any kind of throw.

Shootboxing,San-shou or Draka competitions are all forms of kickboxing which allow most all type of throws also.Most all of the competitors in these styles of kickboxing still opt to wear the open face boxing headgear when training.I guess what I am trying to get at is what is the advantage of wearing the bogu/kendo type head gear,if no professional prize fighters train with them?

Robert,I am not trying to be confrontational I would just like to know what the advantage is? if there is any? or is it just for tradition sake?

It cannot possibly be tougher because it's obvious that your nose can't be broken by wearing the kendo type headgear.The wiplash consequence happens with both types of headgears,the only difference is that one can give you a bloody mouth and nose to go with the wiplash.

RobertRousselot
4th February 2006, 22:58
Shootboxing,San-shou or Draka competitions are all forms of kickboxing which allow most all type of throws also.Most all of the competitors in these styles of kickboxing still opt to wear the open face boxing headgear when training.I guess what I am trying to get at is what is the advantage of wearing the bogu/kendo type head gear,if no professional prize fighters train with them?

Robert,I am not trying to be confrontational I would just like to know what the advantage is? if there is any? or is it just for tradition sake?

It cannot possibly be tougher because it's obvious that your nose can't be broken by wearing the kendo type headgear.The wiplash consequence happens with both types of headgears,the only difference is that one can give you a bloody mouth and nose to go with the wiplash.

That's just it. For the guy that has to get up the next day and go to his office job having a face that looks like it was in a train wreck is not really an option. The boxing type headgear is lighter but you can still get a broken nose and so on, the kendo type is heavier but you most likely won't get a broken nose. 6 of one half a dozen of the other.

hectokan
5th February 2006, 00:57
That's just it. For the guy that has to get up the next day and go to his office job having a face that looks like it was in a train wreck is not really an option. The boxing type headgear is lighter but you can still get a broken nose and so on, the kendo type is heavier but you most likely won't get a broken nose. 6 of one half a dozen of the other.


So is it safe to say that using the traditional boxer's open face mask allows you to get acustomed to absorbing face impact a lot better than the kendo type head gear?I really don't think it's advisable to recieve too much head contact either way,as boxer's dementia or speech impairement can be lurking around the corner.Being able to take a jab to the nose or recieve a hook punch to the ear without spazzing out with spaghetti legs or freaking out is essential in developing full contact skills.so I think it has a place somewhere atleast moderation. I just don't know any other way to achieve this skill if you want to even call it a skill.


Besides is it not karate's tradition to recieve or incorporate all sorts of punishment to the body for pain tolerance build up?The head is no different,the only problem here and I agree with you is that not all of us are proffesional fighters and not all of us are willing to take the punishment and the medical complications risks that can arise from recieving to much head contact.

I actually think that the bogu/kendo type head gear causes a little more rattle to the brain than the boxer's type headgear,with the boxer type headgear causing more facial damage.It would be interesting if someone can do a study/survey,then maybe the pros and cons can be sorted out.

IchiRiKen1
5th February 2006, 03:35
Matt what is the bigger picture?

If you don't know after your extensive training, then nothing I say to you will open your eyes, will it?

How about "all drills, all training methods, are but fractions of the larger training goal, and each drill and training method serve to prepare that small fraction of the overall equation; when placed together, they compose the entirety of training, but when taken separately no single piece seems appropriate nor applicable as a final answer to the larger training goal."


and my posts were not directed at yourself.

If you put it out in public, prepare for anyone and everyone to feel free to take a bite...


but I see you have a problem being rude

What you'd probably call "polite" I call being dishonest and obsequious. I speak openly, honestly and directly. If you have trouble dealing with others who won't tolerate your failed attempts to take the moral high road (when obviously failing to do so), then it sounds like a personal issue you may need to work on in your own time. It isn't my problem..


and trying to assert your percieved authority as well.

Well, you started the trend, didn't you? I have 20+ years in one art, plus a few years in a few other arts. I guess that means I know just as much as you, now doesn't it? Yet, while you've had 20 years of training with bogu, I've only ever done it one time, yet it appears I understood it's purpose and orientation from that one time more than you learned over two decades of use... So it's more a case of a "bogu beginner" showing a "bogu veteran" how wrong the "veteran's" misconceptions really are than a case of asserting "perceived" authority.


Sorry to hear that you have a case of being better than others as robert has as well.

And you don't??? Puh-lease... :rolleyes: You started off acting like a know-it-all with your "boy, bogu sure doesn't teach you anything" and "it's all outdated training anyway," and when you were called on it you ran into a corner like a kid taking his ball and going home when the game doesn't go his way... Get over yourself, seriously. Robert chooses not to publicly discuss his credentials. Believe me, they outweigh yours by a landslide. Check his website, look into who he is and who his teacher is. Then come back and have the sack to say he's wrong and you know better than he does...


or maybe you train with him?

Well, as a matter of fact... :cool: Maybe that'd be how I know how he is in the dojo (something you know nothing about, yet seem inclined to comment on), how he trains, and what he's capable of. Maybe, just maybe, that's where I got my bogu experience... Can't sneak anything past you, can we?


what ever the case I know what I am talking about.

Apparently you don't, given your comments thusfar. But keep telling yourself how much you know; I'm sure that keeps you warm on a cold night.


and dont give me this SPLINTER GROUP nonsense. My rank came from Sensei Brian Frost, for those of you who dont know who he is. He is the chief instructor of Koeikan in the USA.

Yeah, yeah, I remember, the "God" guy. The "honbu that is a shibu" fella. Got it, all over it, no worries. The non-Japanese speaker that knows more about Japanese language than a long-time speaker does. Right. Got it.

Back to bogu issues -

Our school rarely does "sparring" like other schools do. We focus on one-step drills, working forms applications over and over and over, until they're ingrained responses. We start off against light contact to just work the movement and internalize the timing. Gradually contact is ramped up until we are at full attack speed. This is a very traditional method of training, but it doesn't necessarily help desensitize against impact or facing an opponent who's actions aren't predetermined.

When I did bogu, the use of which allows a person to be protected from the full impact of a real strike/kick, the ability to face off against that opponent was enhanced because of the safety factor involved. I could absorb some rather impressive impacts with the realization that the safety allowed me to focus on my reactions, my techniques, without worrying about taking the hit.

Is that unrealistic? Certainly. Had any number of the strikes and kicks I took landed without benefit of protection, I would have been laid out like a fish on a sushi bar... However, there's no other way to train the psychological reactions to full on force without wearing protective gear.

When we train at home and get around to "sparring," we do it without benefit of protective gear of any kind. People get knocked around quite a bit, and it doesn't usually last very long... You can only take so many hits before you throw in the towel. Does that help anything? Sure. You know how much real damage you can suck up before you can't go anymore. You know what real hits feel like. Just another slice of the bigger pie...

All drills, all training methods, when taken in proper context, train an aspect of the bigger picture. That's what Mr. Nidan fails to grasp, and what cooler heads here apparently understand...

koeikannidan
5th February 2006, 04:19
Our school rarely does "sparring" like other schools do. We focus on one-step drills, working forms applications over and over and over, until they're ingrained responses. We start off against light contact to just work the movement and internalize the timing. Gradually contact is ramped up until we are at full attack speed. This is a very traditional method of training, but it doesn't necessarily help desensitize against impact or facing an opponent who's actions aren't predetermined.

When I did bogu, the use of which allows a person to be protected from the full impact of a real strike/kick, the ability to face off against that opponent was enhanced because of the safety factor involved. I could absorb some rather impressive impacts with the realization that the safety allowed me to focus on my reactions, my techniques, without worrying about taking the hit.

Is that unrealistic? Certainly. Had any number of the strikes and kicks I took landed without benefit of protection, I would have been laid out like a fish on a sushi bar... However, there's no other way to train the psychological reactions to full on force without wearing protective gear.

When we train at home and get around to "sparring," we do it without benefit of protective gear of any kind. People get knocked around quite a bit, and it doesn't usually last very long... You can only take so many hits before you throw in the towel. Does that help anything? Sure. You know how much real damage you can suck up before you can't go anymore. You know what real hits feel like. Just another slice of the bigger pie...


One step sparring or ippon kumite is just an exercise, it is not real life sparring. You dont learn how to give or take contact with it. Your way of training is not realistic right there. Ippon kumite is just exercise.

on the psychological reactions to full force contact without bogu, your wrong again, you can train without bogu and learn to take and give contact. isnt there organizations like the WBC, WBA, IBF and the amateur athletic union that teach boxers how to do it daily? If a boxer can learn it so can a martial artist. without bogu.

In your words "you can only take so many hits before you throw in the towel" You are wrong as well in that case, I know many kickboxers, boxer and mixed martial artists who train daily and they dont use bogu and "throw in the towel" when getting hit.

So you have done bogu one time and you are an expert at it huh? Trust me it takes alot longer than that to get good at it. One time an expert does not make. One time and you really have no ground to give any feedback on the benefits except your small three minute round and thats not alot of time to go around quoting the benefits from it.

Sorry, but until you do a few more years of bogu training please dont go around telling others what they are doing wrong without it.

Thanks,
Troy M Spees

koeikannidan
5th February 2006, 04:23
hey bobby,
You just do it..................

Troy M Spees

Joseph Svinth
5th February 2006, 04:26
Anyone interested in researching the brain injuries associated with boxing might find something useful in the bibliography at http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_0901.htm.

Now, Moderator Hat on: I think this thread has about outlived its usefulness.

NOTE: The post immediately below this appeared while I was writing this warning. And so, with that, this thread has indeed outlived its usefulness.

Thread closed.

koeikannidan
5th February 2006, 04:27
Matt you and your girlfriend
just dont have the ability to understand the fact that others can and will disagree with you. That is other peoples rights. I dont agree with you or your buddy so why cant you get over it? My sensei was everybit as prestigious as yours and your buddies as well. I dont have to acknowledge that to you or prove it to you. So get over yourselves.

Troy M Spees