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BB
1st October 2001, 17:48
Hello all-

I'm wondering if anyone is teaching the proper use of the tachi (fighting from horseback) as opposed to the katana. Seems like an interesting subject.

-Brian

fifthchamber
2nd October 2001, 10:37
Hello BB,
I am not too sure (because there are many ryu out there) But I think that you will find that most of the ryu-ha that are extant today were formed around the 1600's (exceptions being T.S.K.S.R., Kashima Shinto ryu, and a couple of others)
By this time I think it was generally the Katana that was used by the Samurai. Horseback fighting was still carried out but more often with Yari than with Swords.
Perhaps one of the older ryu does contain some but I believe that Tachi use was dissolved far earlier than the founding of the majority of the ryu that exist.
A good place to look at ryu and their techniques is at www.koryu.com where there is a vast database of Koryu (classical schools) and links to their sites or general information.
Sorry to not be more use here but perhaps someone who has trained in the older schools can provide more information on the techniques they do.
Abayo.

BB
2nd October 2001, 18:21
Thanks Ben. I searched the site and found Kage-ryu, a school which uses very long swords called "choken" that actually studied in secret after the Tokugawa laws were enacted standardizing sword length.

Very interesting reading:
http://koryu.com/guide/kage.html
http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

Look at the size of these swords!
I am interested in knowing if these would be considered tachi. Mr. Hyakutake refers to them as choken; is this a totally seperate type of sword?

-Brian Busch

pgsmith
2nd October 2001, 19:58
Hi Brian,
Hyakutake Colin, who's site that is, posts on this forum sometimes. If you have specific questions for him, you might try making a post with his name in the subject. The major difference between a katana and a tachi is not in the sword, it is in the mounts. Tachi were slung from mounts edge down. Katana are thrust through the obi edge up. Many old tachi were remounted as katana. You can tell they were tachi because the Mei on the tang is on the opposite side. The swords that Kage Ryu uses would not be tachi because they are worn through the obi edge up. They are also too long for katana. I would label them Nodachi, but Kage Ryu prefers Choken. I do know that they have horseback forms (bajo dachi) but it wouldn't be the same as tachi forms because the draw would necessarily be different.

Cheers,

Paul

ben johanson
2nd October 2001, 22:37
Yes, I'm sure the swords used by Kage ryu would be considered of a style more characteristic of the 16th century rather than of the era when tachi were used by all, but...

Paul wrote:
"The major difference between a katana and a tachi is not in the sword, it is in the mounts"

I was under the impression that there was a significant difference not only in the mounts of tachi and katana, but in the blades themselves as well. As stated in Arms and Armor of the Samurai, the tachi (especially of the Heian period) were generally longer and more deeply curved, while katana blades actually embodied a combination of certain characteristics of tachi from the Heian and Kamakura periods, being shorter, slightly less curved, and more robust. I think many tachi were remounted in the style of katana as a less expensive way of obtaining a sword of that type than actually purchasing a new one. Any comments?

Regards,

Ben J.

pgsmith
2nd October 2001, 23:26
Hi Ben,
Yup, it's true in general that tachi tended to be thinner and more curved than later katana. It is also true that there are exceptions to everything and I have seen tachi blades (by the position of mei) that were shorter and beefier as well as katana blades (again by the mei) that were thinner and long. Since many swords were made to particular specifications of individuals, there are always exceptions. Whenever someone speaks of tachi, they are generally referring to Japanese swords that are slung from hangars, or if bare blades, that are signed on the opposite side. Of course, we could probably find exceptions to that also. :)

Cheers,

Paul

hyaku
3rd October 2001, 00:10
Originally posted by BB
Thanks Ben. I searched the site and found Kage-ryu, a school which uses very long swords called "choken"

I am interested in knowing if these would be considered tachi. Mr. Hyakutake refers to them as choken; is this a totally seperate type of sword?

-Brian Busch

Hello all

I don't refer to the blades as Choken. The ryu does.

Choken simply translates as long sword ei. longsword style. If we used the swords in a tachi mount it would make drawing ten times easier. If you look at the picture of the second generation Lord Tachibana Muneshige on my site he has a tachi mount. It was one of his retainers that had founded the style.

The fact that it is now thrust through the obi on the hip restricts movement. Also having to turn the blade over to draw and takes extra time.

But the advantage lies in maai and fact that if the opponent is not already holding a weapon of a similar length there is very little he can do with a blade coming up at him from a distance aimed in between his legs!

Our approach Batto is totally different to Iai. Its ok to slowly perfect in the dojo. But If I spent too much time drawing and cutting nicely and did what's proper at a demonstration my Shihan would have flipped. When I first made a move from iai into batto he often commented on me looking too pretty.

The teachings handed down and manuscripts make no mention of how the blades are mounted but on the required ettiquette and waza. There would be really nothing to stop me remounting one. I have a 4 shaku 2 sun saya tsuki bokken and might do it one of these days. But basicaly I try to stick to what I was taught

In the Kageryu bajo forms, drawing the blade is somewhat different. The blade is brought across the lap with a pulling drawing action which brings the blade over to ones right hand side. There are many thrusting actions down into the neck of people on ground level. An on its side figure of eight configuration is used to cut so as not to injure the horses head. I still do this as suburi.

The next big one is this coming Saturday. I shall be the walking through the shrine gate with the present generation Tachibana sama and dignitaries to perform a ceremony handed down through 17 generations. Sadly I will be the only one representing the Ryu.

Regards Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

pgsmith
3rd October 2001, 18:30
Greetings Colin-san!
Is it because there is no one else sufficiently far advanced to properly represent the Ryu, or is it because there is no one else learning it? If it is the latter, I am saddened, if the former I would feel much relieved. Enquiring minds want to know!

Cheers,

hyaku
3rd October 2001, 23:44
Originally posted by pgsmith
Greetings Colin-san!
Is it because there is no one else sufficiently far advanced to properly represent the Ryu, or is it because there is no one else learning it? If it is the latter, I am saddened, if the former I would feel much relieved. Enquiring minds want to know!

Cheers,

Hello

Unfortunately both mostly the former.

Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword