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Brad Hoffner
2nd October 2001, 21:06
I know that the Hiden Mokaraku teaches ikkajo, nikajo, etc. or more of the jujutsu aspects to Daito-ryu, but when is shihonage, iriminage, kokyunage(aikinage) etc. taught in Daito-ryu?

Brad Hoffner

Dan Harden
2nd October 2001, 22:13
Originally posted by Brad Hoffner
I know that the Hiden Mokaraku teaches ikkajo, nikajo, etc. or more of the jujutsu aspects to Daito-ryu, but when is shihonage, iriminage, kokyunage(aikinage) etc. taught in Daito-ryu?

Brad Hoffner

Brad
I think you are confusing what some Aikido people call ikkyo or nikkyo and what still other Aikido people call Ikkajo or nikkajo etc...with Daito ryu.
The first catalogue of 118 techniques contain many many throws as well as joint locks, take downs, chokes, seated technqiues, hanza handachi techniques, pins, etc....none of which look like a wrist lock. Nor are all the techniques in any one series, variations on a single wrist lock structure (as many have said here and mistakenly believe) they are individual techiques.
See what I mean?
Even the "so called" wrist locks do far more then control a wrist. They affect the center line and bone structure much more invasively than say- Aikido does. They are more in keeping with what Yanagi ryu calls "Cumutive locking." They are more like body locks. Both they, and the resultant pins can greatly inhibit breathing-like being smothered with no one touching your airway.

Anyway......

The names are numbered sequences of disimilar techniqiues from various postions, that have nothing at all to do with the shape of a joint lock or entering move called by the same name by another art.
Of each successive series Aikido took one technique; Such as Ippon Dori from Ikkajo became Ikkyo in Aikido-although its not done the same in many aspects..so on and so on.
Ikkajo is a series
Ikkyo is one technique


Aiki-nage - Aiki-no jutsu- comes later
I would guess that no one is going to tell you much more than that.


As an overview try to think of it this way.
Because judo and Aikido became so popular- people will use one of their names for a visual aid- typically while demonstrating.
As in
"its like O-goshi"
while they are explaining how to enter with your hip. The rest of the Jujutsu technique, both in execution and style, may have little similarity with Judo's O-goshi but the group grasped the idea by the common reference.

or

"We do a nikkajo like this" the demonstrator says; erstwhile twisting some guys wrist up.

The demonstrator often doesn't realize it at all- But what they are saying has nothing at all to do with the techniques in the catalogue series by the same name..but we nod our heads because we know what they are trying to say anyway.


Then you can watch as Daito Ryu intercepts a punch and splays some guy out into a flat, back landing, breakfall and then performs a hanza-handachi technique to a throw and then says
"Those are Nikkajo"

People go "HUH? When yer gonna twist his wrist?"

Hope this helps
Dan

Arman
2nd October 2001, 22:46
Throws are a part of the hiden mokuroku kata from the very first set, the Ikkajo. You will find shiho nage in the ikkajo set, for example, as well as other variations of shiho nage in the rest of the sets. As Dan points out above, the ikkajo, nikajo, etc. are not techniques, but sets of kata. 30 for the ikkajo, 30 for the nikajo, 30 for the sankajo, 15 for the yonkajo and 13 for the gokajo. This comprises the 118 kata of the hiden mokuroku. After this comes aiki-no-jutsu techniques, then the hiden ogi, hiogi, soden and kaiden. I may be missing some, but it doesn't really matter, because you don't even really get to the techniques after the aiki-no-jutsu set until you hit your godan. So I'll let you know in about fifteen to twenty years what I think of those (if I'm lucky).
;)

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

Brad Hoffner
3rd October 2001, 04:30
When is iriminage taught?

Arman
3rd October 2001, 14:58
One thing you will discover is that kata with the same name as techniques in aikido may not be the same tech. in Daito-ryu. For example, irimi nage is taught in the ikkajo set, as a hanza handachi kata (one person seated, one person standing). However, this irimi nage is actually a shiho nage rather than the irimi nage in aikido. I have yet to see an aikido-like irimi nage in the Daito-ryu kata.
Sincerely,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

Dan Harden
3rd October 2001, 16:43
Armon
Without going into detail- the Aiki-budo you are learning had the techniques named by Takeda Tokimune. Prior to that they didn't have names as such. Several of the other schools do not use them at all or use their own. Tokimunes systemization of the art into Aiki-budo and hence his designation as Soke; included the naming of the hitherto unamed (just more or less classified by number) techniques from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Formerly they were listed as; this attack-this defense, etc.

Anyway,as far as names go- it gets difficult in that while thankfully most of the schools acknowledge Kondo's situation and have supported him all the way- they had their own foundings under Sokaku down to their current heads.
(no I'm not talking about the current flap with the SAD group)

Maybe a fair caveat to answering questions would be "The mainline does this or that, or calls this technique this or that- others may not."

BTW there is a technique that looks- mmmm..something like Aikido's Irimi-nage in the Mokuroku, it just isn't called that and doesn't work the same way.

Anyway
I am glad to see that you aren't giving out any details to technique

Dan

Arman
5th October 2001, 17:14
Dan-

Good point. One of the problems with Daito-ryu technical history is the unclear process behind Tokimune's classification process. Since Sokaku didn't teach in kata form, or even have a set curriculum, in what way and just how did Tokimune go about creating the current curriculum? Add to that the fact that Tokimune wasn't exactly interested in wide dissemination of his Daito-ryu Aiki Budo, and you have a very cloudy history regarding an art whose modern form is just over one hundred and ten years old (not very old at all!).

Regarding technical secrets - I couldn't imagine that anybody boneheaded enough to reveal such secrets to the public would ever have truly learned them. For instance, I have encountered individuals (who shall remain unnamed) that have purchased copies of Kondo's technical tapes and books (both of which I highly recommend), who think they have mastered the kata because they copy exactly what they see on the tape and in the book! These resources, however, are like makimono, scrolls of an art describing the technical details in broad and vague outline so that only those initiated into the kuden (oral teachings) really understand how to do the technique, or kata. In fact, what these people don't realize is that the form of the art disseminated to the public will often times contain purposeful, incorrect, instruction.

If I ever came across someone revealing kuden to the public that I was aware of, I would personally find a way to nuke them. :)

Sincerely,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

Brently Keen
6th October 2001, 18:57
I have personally learned to refrain from giving out too many technical details in public, especially on a BB like this, and stand in agreement with Dan's and Arman's sentiments. It should be noted however that even among the more open branches of Daito-ryu (like the Roppokai) many things are still reserved, and things that are revealed are not always as they seem.

Times have changed a lot, and there's no longer the need for the same amount of secrecy, and so while many secrets are now shown more openly, that doesn't mean that all is shown. One groups kuden just may be anothers kihon.

I know you were being a bit tongue-in-cheek Arman, but with all due respect, have you been training long enough to have received any kuden, much less threaten to nuke one who might reveal some? Are we to infer that the mainline line's Ikkajo kuden might actually include nuclear technology? Whoa. ;)

Brently Keen

Arman
7th October 2001, 01:12
Yes, well, it is a very potent art. Students must restrain themselves even during training lest they wipe out half a continent.:)

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD