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Yamantaka
15th July 2000, 01:51
Hello!

I've always heard that the kanji for "DO" stands for "a way", "an avenue", "to walk with head up". But recently a friend of mine sent me this interpretation :
"Unfortunately, the ancient characters are our only link with the original
meaning of oriental pictographs. They were born of objective
representations of things and animals simplified, after centuries, to make
them easy to write. I've attached an analysis of the ancient ideograph for
DO(TAO) with its pictorial representation.
The first component is the figure of 3 horizontal lines, representing
the CHIEN trigram from the I Ching. This trigram, represented by those 3
unbroken lines, symbolizes Heaven, Creative Power, Action and completely
Yang forces.
The second component is a representation of a seated man, with
outstretched hands, as in prayer. It symbolizes a meditative, contemplative,
patient
posture.
Those two componentes, united, symbolize a great inner movement, because
of the sitted, still, man. It's a character used to symbolize "action".
The third component is represented by 3 wavy lines. They symbolize
flowing water, fluidity. This is a very important element in Taoism, meaning
the constant flux of the Universe. It's flexible and overcomes all
obstacles, by avoidance or absortion.
The last element is formed by the joining of an eye with a vertical
line. It's the symbol for "looking up", that is, the spiritual vision that
transcends the material universe.
Those last two, when united, mean "leader" or "leadership". The leader
is one that possesses a great flexibility and is always looking beyond the
common man's perception. That's why he is followed by other people.
By reading the whole of the ideograph :
DO symbolizes a search (action) for a transcendental vision, since the
only constant in the Universe is CHANGE. Also, it means that this vision
lies inside human beings, but also outside (the ancient metaphor that the
macrocosm reflects the microcosm). O DO ou o TAO symnbolizes, basically, a
search, never an end and that's why it's called a "WAY".
As said by the taoist philosopher CHUANG TSE : "After studying a few
hundred years, we may finally reach the beginning of the Way".
Can anyone clarify things for me ?
Best regards
Ubaldo Alcantara

Yamantaka
16th July 2000, 20:48
Come on, Guys!
Can't anybody help me with the "DO" kanji?
Yamantaka

CKohalyk
17th July 2000, 06:08
Did you know that the Japanese kanji for "letter", as in
"Don't forget to send me a letter when you get to Japan." means "toilet paper" in Chinese?

Meanings change when we use foriegn words in our own language. My British friends laughed their faces off when I told them about "fanny packs". I think this particular text is looking at the pictograph from a period long before "DO" hit Japan.

I'll ask around and see if I can get a JAPANESE deconstruction for you. Offhand I can tell you the squiggly line that goes from mid-left down and across the bottom of the kanji is called "shinyou" and is generally regarded as "path, way, road, etc". The "kubi(neck)" kanji in the middle and their relation is something I am not sure about. I will reply in time.


CKohalyk

AikiTom
17th July 2000, 06:48
That interpretation seems a bit far out. Usually kanji interps are simple explanations of earlier pictographs.
I've read one for "do," and here's what I read. The "shinyou" part described above is accurate - it represents a road. The pictograph to the right of it is supposed to derive from the picture of a man's head with the part on top said to be wind blowing hair or something similar. The idea is that it's a combination of a person traveling down a road or path.
The kanji is read as "michi" which I think is literally a path or "do" which is a Japanese version of "tao" which is "the way" in a spiritual sense.
At least that's my understanding. A lot of these explanations are readily available in books on writing and reading kanji. Hope it helps.

Yamantaka
17th July 2000, 18:23
"[QUOTE]Originally posted by CKohalyk
Meanings change when we use foriegn words in our own language. My British friends laughed their faces off when I told them about "fanny packs". I think this particular text is looking at the pictograph from a period long before "DO" hit Japan."

Thanks, Ckohalyk!

If you want, I may send you the pictograph.

Yamantaka

kenkyusha
17th July 2000, 19:19
Yamantaka,

Just a reminder, E-budo policy requires the use of name with posts. You can configure your signature to do this automatically.

Be well,
Jigme

CKohalyk
18th July 2000, 01:23
"
[i]

Thanks, Ckohalyk!

If you want, I may send you the pictograph.

Yamantaka




Sure! You can either send it to me, or why don't you just post it for everybody?

BTW, does anybody have Lowry's "Sword and Brush"? I wonder what kind of interesting interp of "DO" he has...

THX

CK

Yamantaka
18th July 2000, 12:52
Originally posted by W.Kent Bergstrom
http://www.bubishi.com/0001/Do.gif

Mr. Bergstrom,

How can I send an image of a pictograph to this list, the way you sent yours?

kabutoki
19th July 2000, 00:30
hello !
Its been a long time . I found this discribtion in my Henshall:
"[The dot and the line from the left side to the bottom of the kanji] is the radical and stands for "movement". [The two dots, the line under them and the three sectional rectangle(?)] is"head" or "chief", here acting phonetically to express "direct" and also leading to an idea of "chief/main". Thus chief mains of direct movement, meaning a main road. Also figuratively as an abstract way (to enlightment etc.)"

Hope this helps.

Source:
Kenneth G. Henschall
"A Guide To Remembering Japanese Characters"
Tuttle, 1998

Yamantaka
19th July 2000, 18:37
"Originally posted by CKohalyk [/i]
[B
Sure! You can either send it to me, or why don't you just post it for everybody?"


UHM...! Ckohalyk, I wasn't able to send the pictograph of Do to the list and you didn't have a e-mail address, in order that I may send it to you. Any ideas ?
By the way, the pictograph I have isn't the modern one that a guy send to the list, it's an older one, written differently.
Yamantaka

Yamantaka
20th July 2000, 22:47
[QUOTE]Originally posted by W.Kent Bergstrom
[B]Mr Alcantara,
and please call me,
Kent


Dear Kent,

Thank you very much for your kind answer. In spite of being a "cyber-ignorant", I'll do my best to follow your instructions.
And, please, call me Ubaldo. Otherwise, I'll feel bad calling you Kent.:))
Best regards
Ubaldo.

Yamantaka
27th July 2000, 20:51
Originally posted by CKohalyk
[B]"[QUOTE][i]
"Thanks, Ckohalyk!
If you want, I may send you the pictograph.
Yamantaka


Sure! You can either send it to me, or why don't you just post it for everybody?"

Hello!
Finally I can send the two ideographs, the ancient and the modern ones, for DO.
http://www.egroups.com/message/aikido-lingua_portuguesa/1475?&start=1466
(at the bottom of the page)
I hope you can tell me something about the older simbol.
Best regards
Ubaldo.


[Edited by YAMANTAKA on 07-27-2000 at 02:53 PM]

kabutoki
27th July 2000, 23:20
Hello !
I followed the link and got that :

Oops...

You are not a member of the group aikido-lingua_portuguesa.

Any suggestions ?

Yours Karsten

Yamantaka
28th July 2000, 14:28
Well, Khoalik!

Let's try again :

http://www.egroups.com/message/aikido-lingua_portuguesa/1554/ideograma.jpg

Please, tell me if you get it right! (This is givin' me the creeps...!)
Yamantaka

Adam DArcy
29th July 2000, 04:55
Hi Yamantaka,

I still couldn't see the ideograph on the page, and got a box with a red "x" inside it when you posted it here. I'm pretty bad with computers, so I can't help out there, but I'm really getting interested in what that ideograph looks like! :-)

Adam

pboylan
2nd August 2000, 19:09
Hi Ubaldo,

The I Ching is an extremely esoteric work, and using it to interpret anything in either Japanese or Chinese that is not directly tied to it, is rather like using the Tarot to interpret the "real" meaning of English words.

That said, "Tao" or "Michi" as it's read on its own in Japanese, means road, way, path, street. A national highway is called a "kokudo"?‘“¹ meaning "national road" ?@Mysticism has always been a marginal occupation, and it really doesn't have any bearing on how the kanji for road is read. In fact the kanji "tao" is older than the I Ching, so that would really make it difficult for your friends interpretation to be difinitive.

Peter Boylan

Yamantaka
2nd August 2000, 22:36
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pboylan
[B]
"Mysticism has always been a marginal occupation, and it really doesn't have any bearing on how the kanji for road is read. Peter Boylan "

Hello, Peter!

Could you elaborate a bit more on your above consideration?

Thanks for your help
Yamantaka/Ubaldo.

Iikagen
15th August 2000, 16:22
I would have to agree with Mr. Boylan when he said that "mysticism has always been a marginal occupation."

The interpretation in the original post is suspect I believe, on the basis of the improbability of the effect of Confucianism on the written language. ANY chinese character for the most part, can be interpreted rather philosophically since each character is composed of different smaller characters with individual meanings.

What is interesting is that the oldest written Chinese texts to have been discovered are oracular sayings incised on tortoise shells and cattle scapulae by court diviners of the Shang dynasty beginning in the early 14th century B.C., whereas Confucius himself lived in the 5th century B.C. It would be interesting is to see if the Chinese character for "do" in question predates Confucianism.

[Edited by Iikagen on 08-15-2000 at 10:43 AM]