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Arman
4th October 2001, 22:25
Dear E-Budo members:

What do you know about the biography of Kiyose Nakae, the man who produced the classic work, "Jiu Jitsu Complete." Was his style related to the now lost Kito-ryu jujutsu? or something else? It is a really wonderful book - and I'm just trying to figure out the lineage of his art.

Thanks,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

pboylan
5th October 2001, 19:14
I can't answer your question, but I do wonder where you got the idea that Kito Ryu is "lost." I don't have it with me at work, but I've got the main dojo phone number and address at home in the Nihons Kobudo Soran. I also know that they have a Saturday afternoon practice in Tokyo where they get out the armor and do the kata in armor.

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Fine Martial Arts Books, Videos, Clothing and Equipment From Japan
http://www.budogu.com
peter@budogu.com

Arman
5th October 2001, 20:31
Peter -

Everything I have read on the subject (from Dreager, Skoss, etc.) has indicated that Kito-ryu pretty much died out after Jigoro Kano incorporated a lot of it in Kodokan Judo. Basically, the last soke died, and there was no one who really continued the art in its complete form. There were certainly people around who had studied Kito-ryu and continued to practice it, but I am not aware of a continuing Kito-ryu art. I will say, however, that I have heard of a Judo group somewhere in Japan that supposedly still practices Kito-ryu as a separate art. I don't know much about this, though.

As far as the dojo you are referring to, I have no information on them. If they are a fully active dojo claiming to teach classical Kito-ryu jujutsu, then I think that would be a very interesting and important discovery. I would certainly be interested in learning who their sensei is, who he learned from, and what level of transmission he received in the art. Someone teaching Kito-ryu who did not receive full transmission would not constitute a living koryu. I am sure, however, that koryu researchers with far more knowledge than myself (Mr. Skoss, for instance), would be very interested in learning about them as well.

Please fill me in on the details, or whatever you know about them.

Thanks,
Sincerely,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

pboylan
5th October 2001, 21:51
This is a legitimate group. The Nihon Kobudo Soran is published by one of the major koryu organizations (the correct name slips my memory just now). It's hardly a discovery. The information in the NKS comes from the programs of various big enbu that the groups have taken part in. Just because the English speaking world doesn't know about doesn't mean it's not there.

Peter Boylan

Don Cunningham
5th October 2001, 22:03
I'll have to admit that everything I heard or read about Kito-Ryu indicated it was an extinct art. The recent biography of Kano even implies the art was not being passed on when Kano created judo from it.

Well, you learn something new everyday.

Arman
5th October 2001, 22:29
First, if they are a legitimate group, then they will have legitimate credentials. Right? Can you tell me what relationship they have to the lineage of Kito-ryu masters/grandmasters? Who is their sensei? Who did he learn from? How much transmission did he receive? I appreciate the authority you cite, but this doesn't provide any details. I am not saying that you, or the NKS, is wrong. I am saying that the fact that they are listed may not be the whole story. For example, everybody assumed they knew the real history/lineage of aikido up until the mid-1980's, when it became increasingly evident that the commonly accepted history was a) wrong, or b) vey incomplete. Martial artists today tend to be so defensive about questions regarding lineage and authority that they resist serious and critical inquiry into the details and complexities of history. I am merely saying that given the information that does exist regarding the Kito-ryu, I would like more information, so that I can become more educated. If you can't provide it, just say so. I can refer to the NKS myself.

Second, I don't think an art like Kito-ryu, which is probably only the second most generically well-known classical jujutsu system next to Tenjin Shinyo-ryu for its influence on Judo (who still retain some of their kata), would be somehow suddenly unknown to the "english-speaking world." (And btw, most of the best martial arts researchers both read and speak Japanese, have spent extensive time in Japan, and probably know more about koryu arts than most Japanese).

So rather than argue about the legitimacy of this group, I would like 1) more detailed info on them, and/or 2) back to my original topic, any bio info on Kiyose Nakae. I'm not looking for an argument. Just info.

Sincerely,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

Chris Li
6th October 2001, 05:23
Originally posted by Arman
Second, I don't think an art like Kito-ryu, which is probably only the second most generically well-known classical jujutsu system next to Tenjin Shinyo-ryu for its influence on Judo (who still retain some of their kata), would be somehow suddenly unknown to the "english-speaking world." (And btw, most of the best martial arts researchers both read and speak Japanese, have spent extensive time in Japan, and probably know more about koryu arts than most Japanese).

I can't comment specifically on Kito-ryu, but there are a lot of small groups floating around Japan that are virtually unknown in the English-speaking world, which is probably what Peter meant. For that matter there are a lot of small groups that are virtually unknown in Japan until you start looking around. A large part of it is that the number of professional dojo in Japan is extremely small, so a lot of the groups that you find are essentially small neighborhood gatherings - although sometimes you might be surprised what traditions are being preserved by the guy down the block :-).

Best,

Chris

pboylan
6th October 2001, 16:34
Hi Arman,

Well, as nice as Draeger's and the Skoss's books are, I'd hardly consider them definitive. The existence of this particular line of Kito Ryu is no secret, and, like many ryuha, since Kito Ryu doesn't use a soke/iemoto system, there are numerous lines of transmission, and a number of these continue to thrive.

The fact that nothing is known about these ryuha outside of Japan isn't surprising. ALL classical budo are pretty much unknown INSIDE Japan as well. Most Japanese have no interest in budo, and think practicing it is weird.

I realize that there isn't any information on Kito Ryu in English, but there is plenty in Japanese. The Nihon Kobudo Soran shows this particular group's lineage coming down throught the Noda and Yoshida branches of Kito Ryu. OF course, the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten lists seven extant lines of Kito Ryu (and remeber that while the BRD is an excellent resource, it's not definitive for modern schools, since it hasn't been updated in roughly 20 years, so there are plenty of new branches and menkyo kaiden that aren't listed.

This branch is based in Okayama, and the teacher (whose kanji I can't figure out a pronunciation for) studied under Nagaoka, who studied under Noda, whose father was a contemporary of Kano's but in a different dojo.

The truth is that there still is almost no accurate information about koryu in any language except Japanese. Draeger's books are a nice start, and so are Skoss's, but they are barely even an introduction to the mass of literature in Japanese, or better yet, just going and talking to some of these folks in Japan (most of the ones I've talked with are very open and happy to chat, if you speak Japanese of course).

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Fine Martial Arts Books, Videos, Clothing and Equipment from Japan
http://www.budogu.com
peter@budogu.com

Barry Southam
6th October 2001, 17:41
Friends,

I have tried to find Kitoryu Jujutsu and Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu schools/ legitimately credentialed people in the USA without success..

Under the United States Jujutsu Federation there are two men who list credentials in Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu and KITORYU JUJUTSU.....

Mr. Bruce Bethers 8th degree KITORYU JUJUTSU
7 degree Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu

Mr. Charles Voerster 6th degree KITORYU JUJUTSU
6th degree Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu



Maybe someone would like to contact them about KITORYU JUJUTSU..... I cannot get an answer about credentials and TRUE affiliation with Japan....Could be that my e mail didn't go through...

Simple question: Did you study under a credentialed and legitimate Kitoryu instructor who is affiliated with a respectable Kitoryu Jujutsu Hombu or organization in Japan ?
How can that be verified ?


Hope this helps


Barry E. Southam

Arman
7th October 2001, 01:07
Peter,

Thanks for the info. That provides a nice starting point for further research. Of course, the really difficult part is sorting out historical mythology from historical fact - ESPECIALLY when we are talking about Japanese martial arts.

Chris,

Very true. Which, unfortunately, is why so many koryu have died out, or are dying out. A master teaches only a small group of students, doesn't allow foreigners to train, and then dies unexpectadly before transmitting the art to a successor. Another dead koryu. It's a shame, really.

Anyway, I wonder why no one seems able to gather any info about Kiyose Nakae's training? I've tried to research it, but there is not a lot out there. Very interesting.

Thanks,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

Chris Li
7th October 2001, 01:24
Originally posted by Arman
Very true. Which, unfortunately, is why so many koryu have died out, or are dying out. A master teaches only a small group of students, doesn't allow foreigners to train, and then dies unexpectadly before transmitting the art to a successor. Another dead koryu. It's a shame, really.

There are very very few places these days that won't allow foreigners to train.

Koryu dying out? Well, these things always go through cycles - I think that, in general, koryu are doing pretty well these days.

Best,

Chris

Yamantaka
7th October 2001, 13:12
Originally posted by Arman
Anyway, I wonder why no one seems able to gather any info about Kiyose Nakae's training? I've tried to research it, but there is not a lot out there. Very interesting.
Thanks,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

YAMANTAKA : It's almost impossible to get any information in Japan about Jujutsu and Judo in the XIX Century and the first years of the XX century. A big "black hole". Recently I asked for information about Sampo Toku (or Toku Sampo) and it has been impossible to get any answers. And Sampo Toku was one of the greatest judoka of his time, considered to be almost the equal of Kyuzo Mifune and the first teacher of Minoru Mochizuki Sensei, of Yoseikan Budo fame. Mitsuyo Maeda, another great kodokan men, was almost forgotten and has only begun to be studied because of his connection with Gracie Jujutsu.
There is some information in japanese but even so it's scarce, since contrary to what we believe, japanese are not very much interested in martial arts.
But I sure hope you get some information.
Best

Arman
8th October 2001, 04:07
Chris,

I don't believe that koryu in general is dying out. Compare, however, the state of what we call koryu today with that of 100-150 years ago. Historical research has indicated that thousands of traditional ryu existed up to the meiji period, and far more if you go back only a little further into Japan's history. After meiji, they started dying out by the hordes. Many have survived, some even thrived. But it is an unfortunate and inescapable fact that koryu today is a poor representation of what used to be. There are many factors: meiji restoration and the end of the samurai, the rise of the modern state, WWII and its aftermath, and the popularity of modern budo.

In any event, I didn't mean to suggest that koryu arts overall are endangered specimens. Only that many small, little known koryu will continue to die off while other, more widely practiced and better preserved koryu, will continue to thrive (if you can call it that when compared to the modern budo). Of course, a koryu can only maintain its classical integrity by limiting, to some extent, the spread of a ryu's knowledge. So, I guess it is a fine balancing act.

Best,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

tommysella
8th October 2001, 07:53
Barry wrote:

Friends,

I have tried to find Kitoryu Jujutsu and Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu schools/ legitimately credentialed people in the USA without success..

Under the United States Jujutsu Federation there are two men who list credentials in Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu and KITORYU JUJUTSU.....

Mr. Bruce Bethers 8th degree KITORYU JUJUTSU
7 degree Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu

Mr. Charles Voerster 6th degree KITORYU JUJUTSU
6th degree Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu
--------------------------------------------------

If someone is using Dan-grades for Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu it has nothing to do with the Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu which Kano practised. They do not use the Dan-ranking system.

Best regards,
Tommy

Chris Li
8th October 2001, 08:00
If someone is using Dan-grades for Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu it has nothing to do with the Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu which Kano practised. They do not use the Dan-ranking system.

Best regards,
Tommy

Hard to say - a number of traditional schools have adopted kyu/dan rankings since Kano's time.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
8th October 2001, 08:18
Originally posted by Arman
In any event, I didn't mean to suggest that koryu arts overall are endangered specimens. Only that many small, little known koryu will continue to die off while other, more widely practiced and better preserved koryu, will continue to thrive (if you can call it that when compared to the modern budo). Of course, a koryu can only maintain its classical integrity by limiting, to some extent, the spread of a ryu's knowledge. So, I guess it is a fine balancing act.

True enough, but then, that's the way that it always has been and always will be. The roman legion ruled the world until their method of warfare was surpassed. While it's interesting (and often informative) to examine what they did I don't particularly mourn their passing - time moves on and the world changes.

The only reason that the koryu remained in (more or less) one form as long as they did is that the Tokugawa did everything they could to freeze Japanese society at a certain point. In fact, that's one of the main reasons that the koryu were little use in standing up to Perry and the black ships. I do enjoy watching those demonstrations by the schools that have preserved the traditional Japanese 16 century firearms, though.

FWIW, I seem to remember Peter Boylan arguing (a couple of years ago) that there was actually very little die off among koryu, based upon current and past traditions listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, but you'd have to ask him for the details.


Best,

Chris

tommysella
8th October 2001, 10:05
Chris wrote:

Hard to say - a number of traditional schools have adopted kyu/dan rankings since Kano's time.
------------------------------

I know that some schools use kyu/dan rankings but as I know, Kubota Sensei, the current headmaster of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu in Japan, does not use kyu/dan rankings...

Regards,
Tommy

pboylan
8th October 2001, 12:31
While it is true that some koryu have adopted the kyu/dan system, I do know that the two extant branches of Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu have NOT adopted them, which argues against the legitimacy of the people mentioned above.

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Fine Martial Arts Books, Videos, Clothing and Equipment from Japan
http://www.budogu.com

Jari Virta
8th October 2001, 12:36
Originally posted by pboylan
While it is true that some koryu have adopted the kyu/dan system, I do know that the two extant branches of Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu have NOT adopted them, which argues against the legitimacy of the people mentioned above.

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Fine Martial Arts Books, Videos, Clothing and Equipment from Japan
http://www.budogu.com

I have noticed that in some schools or countries, the kyu/dan system has been adopted for a koryu style in addition to the official system. Often it is for the west only, and certain dan ranks actually correspond with the official ranks (1. dan = shoden, 3. dan = chuden, 6.dan... and so on).

Arman
8th October 2001, 14:49
Well, there is a guy in New Jersey who claims to have menkyo kaiden from Kubota Sensei.

His name is Calvin Lester. Here is his web page where he talks about it:
http://www.goshinkan.org/tenjin_shinyo_ryu.htm

I have no idea if he is legitimate or not - I just came across this page awhile ago when I was looking for info on Tenjin Shinyo-ryu
on the web. Maybe others here have heard of him. Of course, we all know that it is very unusual for a foreigner to receive menkyo kaiden, but not unheard of. Also, I'm no expert on Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, or that familiar with Kubota Sensei, so I couldn't say who he has or hasn't given menkyo kaiden to.

Sincerely,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

Steve Delaney
8th October 2001, 15:30
Calvin Lester does not have Menkyo Kaiden. From what Kubota Sensei told me, he only trained in TSR for a short period of time. He only reached as far as Chudan Tachiai (Intermediate standing techniques)

I only know of three people who have Menkyo (Not Menkyo Kaiden) one of them is Kubota Sensei's son, a senior in TSR and the third is an Australian.

BTW, I read Calvin Lester's homepage and it doesn't exactly say that he has Menkyo Kaiden, but he does come close.

"Although the system is over 150 years old, it has never been shared outside of Japan until October 1983. The first, and perhaps the only, person outside of Japan to earn the required license to teach the entire system is Mr. Calvin Lester. He earned these credentials while studying directly with Mr. Toshihiro Kubota."

Not exactly true.

Kubota Sensei is the only teacher with Menkyo Kaiden in this line of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.

Arman
8th October 2001, 17:18
Thanks, Steve! I won't be referencing him in the future.

Best,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

Barry Southam
8th October 2001, 23:46
Friends,

I have found a few people using the names Kitoryu Jujutsu and Tenshinshinyoryu Jujtusu with ranks attached in either there Bio or on a flier....When I would e mail them for verification of credentials with a few quesrtions or taolk to them on the phone...They would either not reply or tell me they have no true legit rank credentials in those arts...And then there's Goerge Parulski and his Okazaki- Ha Shin Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu!!!!!!!!!

The bottom line is if you list ranks and credentials in these two arts.....You should be willing to show LEGIT credentials with either: 1. Legit teacher
2. Legit organization that represents these arts
with affiliations in Japan with the HOMBU


Don't ever say because you hold rank in Judo then you also hold rank in Kitoryu or Tenjinshinyoryu Jujutsu.....


Barry E. Southam

johan smits
23rd October 2001, 08:24
It was mentiond that there's not much published on koryu arts in english, that absolutely true. Books by Draeger, the Skoss's are the primary source for most of us I guess.
Recently however, there is a book out on koryu jujutsu by Mr. Serge Mol, it's published by kodansha.
It has got a lot of information on koryu and at this moment the most complete source of info on koryu jujutsu.
Just to let you know.

Johan Smits

kitodon
11th October 2005, 05:06
My first time here.....

I am a Shodan in Kito Ryu in Australian and we have been aroud for close to 30 years in the Geelong region. There are about 10 Dojo's in Victoria which is a state of Australia. Personally, I feel that some of the schools are starting to lose the essence of the art our school is trying to reinvigorate the art. But I can assure you it is alive and well and affiliated with the Japanese Hombu.

It is hard to find a presence on the web however even we have not yet got a web sight.

Cheers,

Donald Taylor

Geelong Australia

J. A. Crippen
11th October 2005, 05:58
You should make one, even if it's just a junky Geocities page or whatnot. People look for information and contacts for koryu outside of Japan all the time, and you'd probably find your little page start to float to the top of Google's list.

Of course, if you prefer to train in obscurity with no gawking onlookers poking their noses into your dojo all the time, then that's fine too. Fame has its downsides.

Ree
11th October 2005, 15:39
Dear All

The other Menkyo in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu (Tenyokai,Japan) is my father Paul Masters who incerdently is the only person to have been taught the Kuden of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu by Kubota Shihanke.

I have a suggestion ,how about E-Budo having a seperate Thread/site listing those who actually ranked in a Koryu and there grades and teachers/Lineage.


P.S.
Happy Birthday For Saturday Steve.

George Kohler
11th October 2005, 16:12
I have a suggestion ,how about E-Budo having a seperate Thread/site listing those who actually ranked in a Koryu and there grades and teachers/Lineage.

See the new thread in Koryu Forum

Joseph Svinth
11th October 2005, 22:00
Meanwhile, Arman is still looking for info on Nakae. All I have to say on that is "Me too! Me too!"

Mateo
12th October 2005, 04:36
[QUOTE=Arman]Peter -

Everything I have read on the subject (from Dreager, Skoss, etc.) has indicated that Kito-ryu pretty much died out after Jigoro Kano incorporated a lot of it in Kodokan Judo. Basically, the last soke died, and there was no one who really continued the art in its complete form. "

Perhaps Draeger was referring to the Kito Bichu-ha which was the branch of Kito ryu that Kano studied and incorporated into his judo and not all branches per say. I can't find any references in Draeger's "Martial arts and ways" series which expressedly states the Kito ryu no longer exists and I see no references at all to the Kito ryu's history in the Skosses 3 books (There is only one reference at all and it deals only with cross influences.), but strangely Serge Mol does talk about the content of the the Kito Ryu curriculum in the past tense. (Maybe referring to the curriculum of the time.)

I know that I, like many interested in judo, have read the accounts of Jigaro Kano describing his teachers desire for him to take over the system as there was no one else to do so but this probably referred once again to the Kito Bichu-ha and not all lineages of the art.

Obviously as Peter states the Kito ryu does still exist. You can even buy a video tape from www.Mugendo.com and see one of the late Masters from the 1980s performing the waza. This was part of the Nihon no Kobudo series which was I believe was developed and approved by the Japanese Ministry of Education in conjunction with the Budokan. They made efforts to document as many traditional ryuha as they could at that time. You can be reasonably sure that they aren't poseurs.

Now let's get back to Nakae!:)

kitodon
12th October 2005, 06:50
I am a Kito Ryu Pratitioner in Australia. We are about as close as your gonna get to the real deal as the chool dates back 30 years plus in Australia. What I would say however, is that Koryu forms are not static and never have been. If you research them they have changed over the centuries as new masters and students added and extracted interpretations. It's just that they mave stayed closer to the core principles and essence of the arts and maintained a propotion of key technical applications which date back. There is nothing wrong with evolution for without it even the famed Koryu would not have survived as long as they did have.

The interesting thing about Koryu is the elemental forms and core principles these are the things that need to be studied understood and preserved. If I look at Kano I think he did an honorable thing, he took the core and essence of many arts and distilled them into the Kodakan which in itself is jujitsu as did O'Sensei with Aikido. Look at the principles of Ju and Aiki and understand the principles of breaking balance and human movement.

I love the pure forms of which Kito Ryu is one but I also understand that what I do now is probably as far removed from it's original state as Judo or Aikido is. That said the Koryu has many demensions and half the pleasure of learning the art is coming to a self realisation with ones self on it's application.

I am ranked as a shodan and i can honestly say that I learnt more in the 18 months I was preparing for that rank then I had in the previous 5 years learning. One of the biggest things I learned was I know about 5% of what I can know about how to apply the technique with effect using pure Aiki making the art part of my body like another arm. Not to think but to be instinctive. I probably will never acheive this goal to my statisfaction but I'll have fun trying.

I guess what I am saying is that there is no room for nostalgia, we learn from the past, understanding the present and create the future it's as personal a journey as life itself. I enjoy chewing the fat and discussing the differences and essences of all arts but don't get too hung up on the mystery and the personalities they are fun to look at and admire but you need to cut to the core and get something out of the research that has pratical application. That maybe thinking a different way or moving a different way or understaning a principle more fully. This will make you a really good martial artist.

I will say this though Judoka can get a great deal from a study of older systems as I find that sometimes the essence has been distorted and become less effective overtime.

Have fun with it! I will get that web site up ad running.

Cheers,

Donald Taylor

Mateo
12th October 2005, 07:21
Nice post.

Amdur's "Renovation and Innovation in Tradition" essay in his very worthwhile book "Old School" touches on similair points in regard to koryu not being static in nature.

Interesting perspectives.

Finny
12th October 2005, 10:05
Mr Taylor,

You mentioned that your dojo is affiliated with the Kito Ryu hombu in Japan - do you know where the hombu is and who runs it? Is the Kito Ryu a member of any of the major koryu organisations in Japan (kobudo kyokai, shinkokai)?

I'd be very interested to see some Kito Ryu kata, it sounds like an amazing art from what I've read.

Regards,

Brendan

MarkF
12th October 2005, 11:50
I will say this though Judoka can get a great deal from a study of older systems as I find that sometimes the essence has been distorted and become less effective overtime.


A grand oversimplification as per usual with someone with little time invested. In 42 years I haven't found this to be true at all. This is your experience, not mine. Please do not pretend to speak for me.


Mark

Mateo
12th October 2005, 14:03
For those interested in the Kito Ryu Hombu tape Mugendo can be found here.

http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page41.html

Sorry (especially to Peter!) about the incorrect site address earlier.

Mukeido
12th October 2005, 14:17
I am a Kito Ryu Pratitioner in Australia. We are about as close as your gonna get to the real deal as the school dates back 30 years plus in Australia.

Your school is not listed on Daniel Lee's site for Koryu in OZ. http://www.geocities.com/koryu-bujutsu/dojoguide.html

Why don't you contact Daniel (mailto:daniel_cs_lee@yahoo.co.jp) and see about listing your school? Funny that he somehow missed your group?!

kitodon
15th October 2005, 03:07
This is your experience, not mine. Please do not pretend to speak for me.


Mark[/QUOTE]

Yep it is my opinion and there is no suggestion that it is your experinece. I don't speak for you and have never tried too. So the point I think you're trying to make is? That you disagree with me as your experinece does not support my comment. Fair call and no issue!

What are your thoughts on the issue obviously you have vast experinece. I know and I am sure others would be interested on your take on many things. I am suprised how defensive your post is. I am not an expert but a seeker from the research I have done I formulate opinions and thoughts these are my own and they are up for grabs. I truly am interseted in your deeper thoughts and feelings on anything.

I have learned agreat deal from the Judoka I know and I personally think Kano a genius.

Anyway if you're upset with my postings please let me know I will stop participating.

To others I will look at the geocity lisiting and we are working on a web site. I will dig up the detail (all my stuff is in storage so bare with me) and email to those interested parties.

Cheers,

Donald Taylor

Mekugi
26th October 2005, 19:13
I am a Kito Ryu Pratitioner in Australia. We are about as close as your gonna get to the real deal as the school dates back 30 years plus in Australia.
Donald Taylor

What group are you affiliated with in Japan? As in, are you still linked to a group in Japan?

Charles_1
28th June 2007, 05:38
This is a interesting topic my father was a direct student of professor Nakae he trained with him for many years in NYC and later in Toronto and at CFB Pettawawa Ont .
In the mid 50's Professor Nakae and my dad trained often on only a couple tatami's in his newyork apt.

My dad introduced professor nakae to the Toronto police dept. and sponcered seminars at the above mentioned military base .

Professor nakae moved to Toronto Canada where he was involved in teaching "goshinjutsu" programs at many comunity centres and specialized training for police and military personal rather than the traditional dojo he organized in his younger days .

His influence on canadian jujutsu is without question , We were always told that we were learning Kito ryu Jujutsu , many of the dojo's established in canada are based on the teaching of professor nakae .

In edmonton AB 2 schools are derived from students 1. the Dojo of Sensi Kevin George and now his son Robin 2 the dojo of Charles Scott SR and now charles jr.

In ontario I think you find all the old timers will offer insight into Professor Nakae on the influence of most of the modern Dojo's " can Ryu , Milton etc

I will ask my dad for some pictures infact I beleave my father has a origional blade that he was gifted by professor nakae in the late 60's .

charles

Charles_1
28th June 2007, 05:43
Here is a link about Duke moore another pioneer that trained with Professor nakae .
http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/DukeMoore.html

Here is more info on kito ryu and Nakae's influence in the early development of jujutsu in North america
http://www.yotsumedojo.com/Bujinkan%20Yotsume%20Dojo/jujutsu_files/kitoryu/kitoryu.htm

Charles_1
28th June 2007, 06:04
Many of you from the east coast will relize that professor Vee was a major influence in the newyork scene in many many ways I know this drifts from classical Budo but here is more influence that nakae Sensi had in the development of jujutsu in its many forms today .
http://members.aol.com/QuadArts/MrVee.htm

It is important to keep in focus that Sensi Nakae Taught classical Kito Ryu jujutsu to his private Students and the tradition of the Ryu-ha as it was presented is still preserved in the Dojo's of a few of us today .

Charles Scott

47th ronin
29th June 2007, 13:26
This is a interesting topic my father was a direct student of professor Nakae he trained with him for many years in NYC and later in Toronto and at CFB Pettawawa Ont .
In the mid 50's Professor Nakae and my dad trained often on only a couple tatami's in his newyork apt.

My dad introduced professor nakae to the Toronto police dept. and sponcered seminars at the above mentioned military base .

Professor nakae moved to Toronto Canada where he was involved in teaching "goshinjutsu" programs at many comunity centres and specialized training for police and military personal rather than the traditional dojo he organized in his younger days .

His influence on canadian jujutsu is without question , We were always told that we were learning Kito ryu Jujutsu , many of the dojo's established in canada are based on the teaching of professor nakae .

In edmonton AB 2 schools are derived from students 1. the Dojo of Sensi Kevin George and now his son Robin 2 the dojo of Charles Scott SR and now charles jr.

In ontario I think you find all the old timers will offer insight into Professor Nakae on the influence of most of the modern Dojo's " can Ryu , Milton etc

I will ask my dad for some pictures infact I beleave my father has a origional blade that he was gifted by professor nakae in the late 60's .

charles

Charles, can you expand on the influence of Nakae on Can-ryu and Milton,etc.?

Charles_1
29th June 2007, 19:43
No I am sorry I can not speak for can ryu or milton , I was actually quoting my father who says that he is sure that Nakae had some influence on the development of these schools , he suggests that if asked these schools might add to the historical information on Nakae and his influence on Jujutsu in Canada and the eastern USA .

When Nakae sensi was teaching few others were. In Cumberland BC There was Ronald Wantanabe although his dojo was pretty much closed to Japanese students after the politics of internment camps in the area although some of his teachings did filter into non japanese dojo's in the military .

Nakae Sensi had alot of influence on early dojo's period .

Charles

jodirren
15th July 2007, 07:08
Nakae constantly comes up on E-budo, about once or twice a year, and it would be great if somebody could do some research and satisfy so many people's curiosity. I think there is so much interest in Nakae because he taught many Westerners who went on to form their own modern jujutsu systems which many of us practice today. It will always strike me as strange that so many people trained with him back "in the day" but nobody thought to ask where he learned what he was teaching and who is instructors were. The founder of my style of jujitsu, Duke Moore, took private lessons with Nakae in NYC in 1944. When Duke asked Nakae what he was teaching, Nakae replied, "self-defense". I don't think Duke pushed it anymore.

But I just can't believe nobody knows. Assuming he has no family in North America, at the least, there must be immigration records somewhere, so somebody must be able to trace him back to Japan and at least figure out where he emigrated from. That would be a huge starting point.

I always wonder if maybe he didn't want to publicize the style he was teaching, perhaps because he had some conflict with his instructor ... perhaps for teaching foreigners. I know that was a big deal back in post-WWII era. Maybe Nakae had a falling out with those with whom he trained back in Japan and hence not allowed to officially teach whatever art it was he had learned, so he was mum about it. Or maybe he figured Westerners wouldn't understand or care about his jujutsu lineage anyway (and apparently, back at that time at least, he would have been right, since I can't believe nobody bothered to grill him on it!).



This is a interesting topic my father was a direct student of professor Nakae he trained with him for many years in NYC and later in Toronto and at CFB Pettawawa Ont .
In the mid 50's Professor Nakae and my dad trained often on only a couple tatami's in his newyork apt.

My dad introduced professor nakae to the Toronto police dept. and sponcered seminars at the above mentioned military base .

Professor nakae moved to Toronto Canada where he was involved in teaching "goshinjutsu" programs at many comunity centres and specialized training for police and military personal rather than the traditional dojo he organized in his younger days .

His influence on canadian jujutsu is without question , We were always told that we were learning Kito ryu Jujutsu , many of the dojo's established in canada are based on the teaching of professor nakae .

In edmonton AB 2 schools are derived from students 1. the Dojo of Sensi Kevin George and now his son Robin 2 the dojo of Charles Scott SR and now charles jr.

In ontario I think you find all the old timers will offer insight into Professor Nakae on the influence of most of the modern Dojo's " can Ryu , Milton etc

I will ask my dad for some pictures infact I beleave my father has a origional blade that he was gifted by professor nakae in the late 60's .

charles

This is interesting information which I haven't heard before. Definitely please post any pictures you might have. Also, do you have any contact info for the Canadian clubs you speak about and who might know more about Nakae? There are many here he would be interested in that ....

Charles_1
20th July 2007, 22:37
My father is in Alberta so I can not just pop over and raid his photo's I know he has many pictures of nakae sensi and several other Nakae student like Mike Pasquali sr. etc etc

I feel from talking to Dad that you may have hit the nail on the head the japanese did not like Jujutsu being taught to non japanese .

In cumberland BC there were several Dojo's and jujutsu was practised in the internment camp , the camp still exisits today in memory of the opression that was placed on japanese canadians I was just there 2 days ago the memorial is beautiful infact I would like to train in the park there .

My father also aserts that very little information existed on differnt ryu-ha that jujutsu was new and exotic and the students were just gratefull to have the ability to be trained .

It was not untill much later that information was avalable about different schools , they looked at it like boxing .

My father is not computor savy I will ask my mom to find and scan some pictures of Nakae Sensi for interest sake I will ask her to scan some pictures of montreals early Savate club also .

Very interesting topic
SIncerely Charles Scott

Charles_1
22nd July 2007, 10:11
http://hem.passagen.se/stni9961/juhist.htm
some more interesting information

john_lord_b3
23rd July 2007, 09:16
Dear E-Budo members:

What do you know about the biography of Kiyose Nakae, the man who produced the classic work, "Jiu Jitsu Complete." Was his style related to the now lost Kito-ryu jujutsu? or something else? It is a really wonderful book - and I'm just trying to figure out the lineage of his art.

Thanks,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

Just found the book (2nd hand) in a small bookstore at Jogjakarta. Will try to purchase it. On a first glance, it contains many excellent techniques. Nakae sensei uses drawings of people in civilian clothers (not Budogi) and some pictures which looks like it was taken straight out of instructional scrolls.

Charles_1
23rd July 2007, 18:28
My mom has located some pictures of nakae sensi with my dad and my grandfather .

Nakae sensi maintained to the best of my dads memory that nakae sensi was teaching teckniques of "Kito Ryu Jujutsu " he often would explain the difference between the old and new schools .

Infact in the late 60's both mike pasquali sr and my dad advertised that they were teaching the anciant art of "kito ryu Jujutsu as passed to them by Professor Kiyose Nakae .

My father has a several certificates issued by nakae all simply have the japanese Kanji for Jujutsu and under Nakae's signiture the address for the NYC judo club that he ran .

Despite my bad grammer (lol) I have decided to write a article about kiyose Nakae and his history and influence on Jujutsu in north america .

Charles Scott

jodirren
24th July 2007, 00:09
That's interesting to hear. However, there has been speculation for some time now that Nakae taught Kito Ryu and, though it's helpful to hear yet another second-hand verification of that, it would be nice to get some hard proof. Though something tells me that goal may remain forever elusive ... unless somebody can track him down to some location in Japan.


My father has a several certificates issued by nakae all simply have the japanese Kanji for Jujutsu [....]
Charles Scott

Again, it just says "jujutsu" and not any particular school of jujutsu, and so doesn't help much. In fact, as I'm sure people here much more knowledgeable than I can attest, if he was truly teaching Kito Ryu he wouldn't be awarding "certificates" that just said "jujutsu" on it. I think it's clear that he was not teaching formal Kito Ryu (or whatever art(s) he learned) to his Western students, but just bits and pieces of what he knew, so-called "tricks", a watered-down version of what he really knew, just the parts that appealed to Western sensibilities at that time. Whatever the reasons are for that, who knows, though we can take some good guesses (not wanting to teach foreigners, not being allowed to teach foreigners, etc.). But whatever art(s) he knew, though he most likely didn't teach them formally, they obviously would be reflected in his style and techniques nonetheless. So it would seem to me that, if one were to compare what Nakae's students have learned from him to Kito Ryu, the similarities should be obvious, right? If not, then I would say, whether or not he knew Kito Ryu, he wasn't teaching it to Westerners. It just seems to me that if he really was teaching Kito Ryu, it would be easy to verify since his students could show what they learn and it would be seen to be the same as Kito Ryu (though finding extant Kito Ryu is another issue, a topic this thread has already touched upon).

Of course, this is all so hard since Nakae is long gone and there are but a handful of people left who can claim direct lineage to him ...

john_lord_b3
24th July 2007, 05:45
I think it's clear that he was not teaching formal Kito Ryu (or whatever art(s) he learned) to his Western students, but just bits and pieces of what he knew, so-called "tricks", a watered-down version of what he really knew, just the parts that appealed to Western sensibilities at that time. ...though finding extant Kito Ryu is another issue, a topic this thread has already touched upon.

1. I wholeheartedly agree with the opinion that Nakae sensei did not teach pure Kito-ryu, or whatever Ryuha he was originally in, but a composition of what he deemed most useful for teaching Westerners. On the other hand, modern composite Jujutsu composed by a Japanese is, well, still Jujutsu, though not Koryu by any stretch of imagination. Koryu or not Koryu though, as long as it's enjoyable to learn, then it's worth learning.

2. Buried deep within the pages of E-Budo, I think one of the nice people at Mugendo Budogu inc had made a statement that he had discovered a group in Japan called Nihon Kobudo Souran which still practices Kito-ryu.

Charles_1
24th July 2007, 05:58
Yes I have to agree with your summery .
Kiyose Nakae never gave dan kyu ranks in jujutsu he offered 3 courses of instruction in private and semi private instruction only level one two and three he promoted judo as his primary art and the Jujutsu 3 "course" program was to compliment your judo skills by advanced understanding of the main art that contributed to judo's creation most who learned jujutsu from Nake sensi were already Judo instructors .

The fact that he was teaching his Jujutsu as being the art that contributed to the creation of judo points us in the direction that his school was Kito ryu .

Its sad that professor Vee is no longer with us becouse he was a good friend of Nakae sensi and could answer many of these questions .

This is important to me as I have spent most of my life learning Jujutsu that is based on the teckniques of Kiyose Nakae .

I have always been told that the Ryu that our Jujutsu was based on was Kito ryu and I know that many of the schools in the eastern USA and Canada have been under the same impression .

It is my understanding that Kiyose Nakae verbally stated that his Jujutsu was kito Ryu the question is was this assumed ? becouse of the information that was published about the Judo and the arts that contributed to its creation ?

I feel it is worth my time and energy the learn the facts about Kiyose Nakae and the origins of his Jujutsu .

One thing is for certain Kiyose Nakae never issued Dan or Kyu Ranks in Jujutsu so anyone who claims to have received a Rank in jujutsu from Nakae sensi is dishonest it took over 4 years of training to acheive his advanced or level 3 certificate and it seems that a Dan rank in judo was required to learn jujutsu from Nakae .

Thank you all and I am sorry if I hijacked this thread it is what led me to E-budo

Charles Scott

john_lord_b3
24th July 2007, 06:00
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=70868&postcount=2

This is the post where the nice people from Mugendo inc stated that Kito-ryu still exist.

john_lord_b3
24th July 2007, 06:07
Yes I have to agree with your summery .
Kiyose Nakae never gave dan kyu ranks in jujutsu he offered 3 courses of instruction in private and semi private instruction only level one two and three he promoted judo as his primary art and the Jujutsu 3 "course" program was to compliment your judo skills by advanced understanding of the main art that contributed to judo's creation most who learned jujutsu from Nake sensi were already Judo instructors .


Yes sir that was also the norm in Indonesia before WWII and maybe a few years after WWII, is that we have to learn Judo first, then the instructor will teach us "Judo Defence" which is also called "Jiu Jitsu". This is how Japanese and Dutch instructors in Indonesia taught the arts.



Its sad that professor Vee is no longer with us becouse he was a good friend of Nakae sensi and could answer many of these questions .


Yes, this is to be regretted deeply. I have heard only very good things about Professor Visitacion.



I feel it is worth my time and energy the learn the facts about Kiyose Nakae and the origins of his Jujutsu .


yes sir I will be looking forward to read more about your investigations into the art of Nakae sensei.




Thank you all and I am sorry if I hijacked this thread it is what led me to E-budo

Charles Scott

No sir I don't think you hijack this thread, in fact I think you rejuvenated it with new way of thinking. After reading Nakae sensei's book, I am in full agreement that his Jujutsu is a very nice Goshinjutsu/self-defense system, which may be based on Kito-ryu. Such system are, without doubt, worth learning.

Charles_1
4th December 2016, 00:02
I am sorry its been years since I have been back ,My Dadpassed away in 2011 and I inherited a number of pictures and even a very old crude notes and some hand drawn diagrams drawn by Nakae himself or so it appears , my Dad passed and these and other items were nearly thrown in the trash I told my sisters anything martial arts or related to his Military Law enforcement career please put away I was only given the box in 2015
I also learned a bit more about Nakae's students etc he had another Canadian who trained directly with him who I thought was one of my Dad's students his name Was Kevin George who taught Jujutsu for nearly 40 years worked for the Federal Government as a defensive tactics instructor for Corrections Canada and ran a company called century dogs selling and training security and attack trained dogs .
Kevin was a very dedicated student of Nakae's and was in contact with him much later than anyone I know of , Nakae Did awards several instructor certificates/letters
I think that the letters were authored by Sensi George and signed by Nake , The letter states Kevin G has been a student of K Nakae for many years has learned all aspects of Basic to Advanced Jiu Jitsu and is authorized to instruct Jiu Jitsu and self defence no Ryu-ha or any specifics of any type are mentioned .

He also taught Tanbo (yawara) although I find that name confusing as certain early schools of Jujutsu in NYC used the name Yawara to describe Jujutsu I am sure someone will educate me here rather than making me look stupid , as well as police baton technique I assume modified hanbojutsu .
I have a black Yawara that was in the Box that I remember when I was a youngster and is in some pictures its a dowel with a oval circular piece on each end .

I will pull the documents and pictures out of storage and see how they scan maybe we can have a great conclusion to this thread again sorry its been years I just had some time and googled to see if any other info came up and was reminded about my posting here .
I will scan those and comment here but perhaps a new thread is in order .

In summary I think its safe to say that there is no legitimate traceable history between Kito Ryu and Nakae I am certain that Nakae told his students that his teaching was based in Kito Ryu simply because for my Dad and Kevin and many others these details meant very little and the only Names I ever herd were Kito Ryu and Hakko and never were either of these names used to promote the Dojo .

Nakae was very talented and ahead of his time and I am sure was not popular amongst many Japanese in his time Post internment camps period for both US and Canada , I would like to point out that Nakae sesni was apparently very skilled at firearms disarms and knife defence and this is what attacked many to learn from him I think he down played tradition and was a real early innovator for particle combat Jujutsu .

We should honour him and the men who dedicated so much of there lives to promotion of Jujutsu even though it was not historically accurate these were the true pioneers of Kobudo in north America .

Warm regards

Charles D. Scott Jr

Brian Owens
4th December 2016, 04:31
...He also taught Tanbo (yawara) although I find that name confusing as certain early schools of Jujutsu in NYC used the name Yawara to describe Jujutsu...

Yawara is, indeed, an old name for jujutsu. Tanbo is the correct name for the weapon. Several schools of yawara placed a strong emphasis on tanbojutsu (and tessenjutsu, etc.), and the tanbo came to be called the "yawara stick" in the USA, after Prof. Frank A. Matsuyama introduced it to several police departments in California in the 1930s and early '40s, and to the Denver police in the late '40s. In 1948 he published a small booklet titled "How to use the Yawara Stick, For Police," and he also designed his own variation of the tanbo but of molded plastic with metal knobs at the ends.

Joseph Svinth
4th December 2016, 17:12
From my notes. As a young man, Nakae worked the vaudeville circuit.

1922:

“Prof. Kitose Nakae, champion jiu jitsu artist of Japan appearing at Keith’s [vaudeville theater] this week, exhibited his skill before the entire squad of policemen on day duty who were bewildered at the speed of the little Jap.

Using an unloaded revolver, several of the policemen attempted to pull the trigger of the gun before the Jap could either twist it so that the bullet would be sent in an opposite direction or to wrest the gun from their hands. The Jap also showed them several holds by which unruly persons could be taken without much trouble.”

(ASIDE: Kiyose Nakae, age 46, lived in Chicago in 1930. He entered USA in 1903. Occupation listed as physical health instructor. In 1942, his US draft registration card was numbered U7891. Kiyose Nakae, address 5 West 52 St NY, NY.. Age 58, date of birth 6/12/1883. Born Tottori-ken, Japan. Laurence S. Byrne Jr. was listed as contact. His business was at his home address. Also, in 1953, one finds his naturalization documentation: Card 7199211, residing at 241 6th Ave, NYC, on 12/21/1953; alien registration number 1326277.)

Neil Hawkins
5th December 2016, 00:42
Brian,

It is my understanding that the Tanbo was the equivalent of a truncheon or baton approximately 12 - 18" long, the Bo was traditionally 6' long, the Hanbo, or half Bo, was 3' long and was essentially a walking stick, the Tanbo was approximately half again. The Yawara was much smaller, perhaps 6" and used to manipulate pressure points and enhance joint locks.

I have been told that the Tanbo techniques were often similar or adapted from the Jutte, although some styles did specialise in it, the yawara techniques were adapted from the tessen (folded iron fan), but have not seen much evidence to support this.

Regards

Brian Owens
5th December 2016, 02:06
It is my understanding that the Tanbo was the equivalent of a truncheon or baton approximately 12 - 18" long... The Yawara was much smaller, perhaps 6" and used to manipulate pressure points and enhance joint locks.
I could be mistaken, but I was taught that the "yawara stick" did not exist prior to Matsuyama's development, and that all sticks shorter than the hanbo were referred to as tanbo (短棒 -- literally "short stick").

Neil Hawkins
5th December 2016, 02:41
We were told that the difference was mostly about application, the yawara enhanced jujutsu locks, whereas the tanbo was more percussive, but we certainly did a heap of locking and throwing techniques with the tanbo. But as I've previously stated elsewhere the lineage of the style I studied was convoluted and drew from many different styles. So whilst I'm confident that many were from Takagi or Hontai Yoshin Ryu, based on what I've seen and read, I have no direct references to confirm this.

Bottom line, in my experience terminology seems to vary considerably between styles, and is not really helped by translations to English!

Thanks

Brian Owens
5th December 2016, 09:32
...in my experience terminology seems to vary considerably between styles, and is not really helped by translations to English!
Indeed; not to mention the introduction of "modern" methods into "old school" systems, and the internationalization (some would say "pollution") of Japanese arts, with subsequent two-way exchange.

To add another interesting (to me, at least) twist, I think about Tak Kubota's "Kubotan," an even smaller device than the yawara stick, the name of which I was told is a contraction of "Kubota's Tanbo."

finarashi
11th February 2017, 17:43
Does anyone know anything about his co-author Charles Yeager? Where they met etc.