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eVil_daRuma
5th October 2001, 04:01
My Dojo is going to start training without gi's a few times a week. I have been doing this for some time elsewhere with great results, but its *new* for the dojo. I was wondering if anyone elses dojo does this, and what improvements/bad things they have noticed in their technique by doing so.

Many of our people train Ju Jitsu/Shooto style as well so it has many benefits for us in and out of Judo, but maybe other schools have had different results? Im curious....

-Ty

Shobukan Hawaii

Kit LeBlanc
5th October 2001, 05:32
Ty,

Cool that you are training "no gi."

Our judo dojo doesn't do that, but I cross train submission/BJJ so have been doing it for a while. We are now playing with putting on the gloves and allowing striking for submission grappling. That's an even greater adjustment!!!

Things I have noticed are that pins are easier to break without gi, and of course you cannot use the gi as a weapon when training without one. A lot of techniques can still be done but have to be modified. Some of course are limited because you don't have the "handles." A lot of top BJJ and submission grapplers recommend training both gi and no-gi because it expands your options and understanding.

FYI the idea that you can't use collar chokes with a t-shirt is not true. But you better be ready to tear a lot of t-shirts (the collars are never the same) and get a lot of cloth burns. You need a much deeper grip, but I think the thinnner material actually "bites" more on collar chokes. Of course you will be doing more variations on hadaka jime and guillotine and some other neat ones that I see from time to time as well.

In my experience pure submission grapplers are not really into collar chokes and sometimes seem to think of it as a "cheap move," but in reality (self defense wise) people usually wear clothes (well you are in Hawaii....). Learning to use their clothing against them is part of being a well rounded combative grappler.

I think you will enjoy training both ways.

Kit

MarkF
5th October 2001, 10:46
A challenge if you have been training for a few years is trying to train without gripping when wearing a dogi. I swear I feel like Dr. Strangelove when trying NOT to grip. My hands are on their own even when I'm concentrating on the idea of not gripping.

As far as choking, if you train with nothing but sweat pants or similar lower clothing does limit what you can do, but it also makes escaping my easier as Kit said.

Throwing is generally no problem. You probably will use the same throws one usually does, but when and which throw can change dramatically. Hip throws become a friend when before you may have been doin kata seoi throws, but this is probably the easiest area to feel comfortable. The neck becomes your grip with one hand and the other is on the wrist.
Seoi nage is a great throw without a dogi, but ippon seoinage is a little slippery, and, as jamming your forearm up into the other's, it also becomes more of a weapon; atemi.

Throws such as sumi-otoshi are challenging as they really do have to be done as intended, but I doubt that will be a throw of choice.

Kansetsu waza is the same, though IF you can get uke down or in place for the arm lock.

Look at it this way, it is no longer "jacketed wrestling."

I rely more on hip throws when in such situations, and leg reaps are always good, and with a forearm to the chest instead of the grip, here again you have another weapon. While it may be prohibited by the rule of randori, so is taking off the judogi, so all's fair, etc.

Ty, please sign with your full name. You can configure it with the signature editor, but there has been a bug or two, so if it doesn't work, try to remember. It's a rule here, but if the software isn't working than sign at least once in a short thread is fine, twice in a long one.

Thanks and welcome!

Mark

BTW: trying throws with one arm or hand is a good idea if you do randori this way. Lots of improvisations are available so try them.

efb8th
5th October 2001, 13:44
Hi, Guys.

We just called it "Sumo" when we played naked from the waist up. This has always been in the curriculum at Taihei Yukikan.

Ed Burgess
(Sensei, Taihei Yukikan Dojo)
'cause you can tire from Judo,
but you can't RE-tire from Judo.

Charlie Kondek
5th October 2001, 14:37
Yeah, I've done this a few times, too, and it's illuminating. Have had the chance to put on gloves and masks and grapple/strike. That's an eye-opener! But a misleading one, too, because it's still not the real thing and may lure you into the idea that, hey, it's okay if he lops me on the chin as I charge in, it don't hurt that much. Famous last words, right?

I've had the benefit of playing with my brother in law, a former state champ wrestler, and he's much more comfortable not having a gi than me. He's also been showing me how to do some take downs without benefit of a gi. Good stuff. He usually throws me around, but I'm starting to get his number. (Course, that's when he'll surprise me with something new.)

Aaron Fields
5th October 2001, 15:11
We practice without uwagi a fair amount. Itis good practice and fun. Like Kit mentioned a little adjustment and scarf chokes work just fine.
As to training naked from the waste up and calling it "sumo", what do you call practice when naked from the waist down?:laugh: OOps did I say that aloud? I forgot which bulletin board I was on sorry:D

eVil_daRuma
5th October 2001, 22:59
Aaaaaaaaaah! My sig, I always forget about that! Sorry.

But thanx for all the feedback, it will be good to keep in mind while we are doing it. We look forward to learning our Judo from another perspective!

-Ty Kei Robinson

Shobukan Hawaii

MarkF
6th October 2001, 09:40
Uhh, Aaron,
There is a BB where that is discussed? It could work, though the area to grip has much to say about the matter. Why would one even need to discuss it?

Put on a cup kept in place by your Speedos and the advantage is obvious.
********

Sorry, it isn't legal for the cup, but I don't remember anything about gripping in personal places. Certain osaekomi are naturals, especially if your opponent has butt hair.:eek:

Mark

Bustillo, A.
6th October 2001, 13:27
Working out without the gi, it is a good idea for everyone to give it a try. I have done it for years. In the beginning, it took quite a bit of adjusting. Now, no problem, it feels natural.


Antonio Bustillo
www.Steadytraining.com

MarkF
7th October 2001, 10:42
I actually found the illumination for this while wrestling in college for a while. It doesn't take long, heck it doesn't take squat to feel natural, in the beginning, anyway.

Beginning wrestlers are quite a good meal with all the resistence they put up. Takedowns were easy, as were pins.

The problem came when they actually learned how to wrestle, and specifically against judoka turned wrestlers.

Yoko otoshi was particularly fun. Even if you didn't get them all the way down, they dropped hard on the knee. End of match.

I just wish they hadn't caught on so quickly.
****

It isn't as awkward as it plays here, really. If you have enough training under your belt, or belly, when placed in that situation, you do catch on pretty fast, as the conditioned responses are still there.

The real challenge is in doing it with uwagi, and then not gripping, at least it is for me. Conditioned reflex doesn't make it to the hands until the other guy takes his off.

At Aaron's dojo, it would seem most come without jackets, as there are plenty of uwagi and obi hanging there when the need arises. Not only that, but he has a bunch of sticks on the wall which must really come in handy (bokken and tantobokken).

Mark

PS: Actually, I watched a couple of students of his and it would seem, whatever it is (Yabe-ryu) he teaches, it works.;)

Good place to train when in Seattle (Seattle Ju Jutsu Dojo).

Goju Man
10th October 2001, 04:08
I agree with you guys. I have been training that way as well as BJJ. Get ready cause everything changes. I've gone a step further and train with boxing gear all the way to the clinch or takedown, after that, the gloves come off and you grapple. Arm bars will be harder to get and easier to get out of. My only twist is that you don't necessarily have to stay and grapple, getting up from the ground is almost an art within itself when the other guy doesn't want to let you up without eating a kick. I find it's the best way to train all combat ranges and beleive it or not, there is some good stricking that can be done on the ground as well.

Regards,
Manny Salazar
it's all that;)

Kit LeBlanc
10th October 2001, 06:45
Manny,

Try the Ouano UFC gloves or the Chuck Norris bag gloves. You don't have to take them off when you transition to grappling. They are pretty dang cool. Also, it lets you grapple and strike at all ranges, on the ground or standing.

Charlie Kondek
10th October 2001, 14:18
Tell me about it. One of my sparring partners likes to grab me by the sleeve, hockey (or bar fight) style and use it to hold me in place while he sneaks in a few head shots.* Grrr... It's good, though, it's helping me learn to flow between striking and grappling.



*You know who you are, Jody.

Goju Man
11th October 2001, 03:25
Thanks for the tip guys, we're in the process of experimenting.