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Paul Steadman
7th October 2001, 04:11
Hello Everyone,

In your specific jujutsu curriculum do you apply atemi-waza prior to and after nage-waza or osae-waza by: 1) using sun-dome (stopping the strike about an inch from contact) ala WUKO karate-do shiai rules, or 2) using the hand/palm etc to recieve the atemi (kind of like a make-shift focus mitt) ala Obata-Sensei in the Samurai Aikijutsu video?

What do you believe are the pros and cons of the above methods? Thanks in advance for your replies.

Cheers,

Paul Steadman

Stevo
7th October 2001, 13:19
Personally, I think the strike should be pulled at surface contact rather than one inch from the target. If you have enough control to focus on your partner's gi without actually striking their body, then you have enough control to focus deeper if need be. This type of contact also encourages you to make sure that the strike is accurately placed.

Some of the technqiues we train rely on the strike to unbalance the attacker. In these cases, the strike has to have precise placement and just enough penetration to unbalance without causing injury.

I don't favour using the palm to receive the atemi. It's application is limited, and it interferes with accuracy and focus depth.

Andrew Craig
8th October 2001, 13:19
I was always taught and continue to practice to make light contact, (with the emphasis on light, not contact :) ) with the anatomical target being aimed at. However the exceptions to this are the face and also the groin.

The main advantage to light contact on the target is in the feedback you can get from your training partner. The most obvious example is when striking the solar plexus. A light strike here produces a distinctly different sensation than a similar strike to the surrounding areas. Your partner can tell you if you are hitting the right spot really easily.

Practising this way with different sized partners allows you to develop better body awareness and be able to find targets first time more often. IMHO I don’t think either method described above would work as well in this respect. You can also develop the same control you would get from sun dome. However I would recommend starting with sun dome with beginners and to build up once they have the required control.

Best

Paul Steadman
8th October 2001, 23:30
Hi,

Thanks for the replies. Are there any other jujutsu practitioners out there who agree/disagree or maybe add some more insight.

Cheers,

Paul Steadman

Paul Mathews
9th October 2001, 04:10
I find that varying between light contact, stopping the atemi short, as in sun-dome, and actually striking past the target (to demonstrate penetration), help in keeping a feel for the range of the various atemi.

Light contact, as mentioned in one of the previous replies, allows for a feel of the natural reaction of your training partner. Stopping short helps to emphasize control, but I have noticed that some people tend to get lazy and end up throwing strikes that reach full extension without coming closer to the target than 6-8 inches. Punching past the target generally doesn't get used to set up nage or kansetsu waza since such focus is likely to actually remove the opponent from the range appropriate for applying anything from either of those categories. It can make a satisfying conclusion to a technique, though.:D

MarkF
9th October 2001, 10:09
This thread had me thinking of the atemi-waza of judo. During kata, the points which are struck by a would-be atemi strike, such as in the nage no kata (the entrance of uke for the throw seoinage, or as it is FINALLY known officially, ippon-seoi-nage, is so far off that it probably isn't necessary to do the kata, but nevertheless, that is how it is done.

I don't know if you are discussing randori, kata, or two man drills, attack sequences, but if you are going to use it, and you know it, do it!

The best use of atemi in any jujutsu is for another manner of achieving correct kuzushi, but if uke doesn't feel what you are doing, but reacts anyway, it just doesn't feel right, but if you are really knocked off balance, then both uke and tori, can feel it, uke can lighten the strike if he knows it is coming by minor ajustments, and tori isn't staning there wondering if this is too much or not enough. One doesn't have to hit hard, but one must hit...something, IE, the brachial nerve in the front shoulder. If done correctly, even uke knowing it is coming, it will feel as it should, some minor numbness (for the atemi I thought of, that is what would happen, once he tries to raise his arm).

But that's just me, and I realize full-on atemi cannot be done every time, but then how much atemi practice is too much?

Just some random thoughts on why atemi-waza is what it is.

Mark

BTW: Why is a very hard throw full force considered to be any less atemi than a strike, punch, etc., or even kata ate (kicking)? Getting thrown through the floor isn't exactly fun when you reach a certain age (with a body to go with it).

Andrew Craig
9th October 2001, 12:34
Good food for thought Mark,

I was thinking particularly of two man drills when I responded as that is the mainstay of our training.

Atemi is the central aspect of the style I practice (Atemi Justu :) ). The way we use it is to take the initiative and drop an attacker in order to make good an escape.

However Atemi probably only gets 10 to 20 percent of training time on the mat as such time is more profitably spent working on the finer points of nage waza etc. Atemi waza should be fairly simple and the strikes themselves can be drilled effectively alone to develop power, accuracy, speed and control.

There does seem to be two basic philosophies behind atemi as far as I can see. People like our group who see it as a means to an end in itself and those people who see it as secondary, a way to distract/unbalance an opponent in order to use grappling techniques (primary) to overcome an opponent. However this could just reflect the different priorities of those involved. I don’t think it would necessarily be acceptable say for a police officer to punch a violent criminal in the solar plexus and then run away leaving the criminal behind. In this case it would be more sensible to follow up the blow by applying a restraint to arrest the individual. I as a private citizen on the other hand would rather hit and run so I get home safely rather than end up with me rolling around in the dirt with some meathead thug if I fluff my hane make komi ;).

However I agree that throwing an opponent hard at the ground is valid atemi, as is at furniture and any accomplices etc.

Best

Nathan Scott
9th October 2001, 18:42
Hi,

Being a student of Obata sensei, I can add some insight into our atemi.

For the most part, we train students to open hand block incoming atemi to the face just for safety. Nobody wants to have their nose broken (uraken) or teeth knocked out while learning to gauge distancing.

While strikes to the face are blocked, there are kyusho strikes to the body using ipponken, hand slaps and toe thrusts that make light contact (to enduce a slight reaction and confirm targeting) and are not blocked.

A bruised rib or inflamed nerve plexus is not a big deal, but fixing a broken nose or loose tooth is.

Thats the way we see it.

Regards,

Paul Steadman
10th October 2001, 04:42
Hi Again All,

Thanks for the input. G'day Daniel, thanks for the info, we used to use Koshiki Anzen Bogu (men & do) and train to allow hard contact (but not full-contact) strikes. Hi Nathan, thanks for the info, I agree with using the hand to receive atemi to the face. Although metsuke & kime can go astry when students just throw their hand up any old how, instead of in front of their face!

Cheers all,

Paul Steadman

Stevo
10th October 2001, 13:27
Originally posted by Andrew Craig
There does seem to be two basic philosophies behind atemi as far as I can see. People like our group who see it as a means to an end in itself and those people who see it as secondary, a way to distract/unbalance an opponent in order to use grappling techniques (primary) to overcome an opponent.
The third basic philosophy and group: those who see it as both. If you only use atemi for unbalancing, OR only as a finishing technique, then you only have half it's value. :smilejapa