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taino1
7th October 2001, 16:33
Hello to All,

I would greatly appreciate it if I could get any recommendations from the forum. I'm looking for ANY exercises that will help learning how to take a correct breakfall from mainly two types of techniques but not limited to these: Kotegaeshi and any hip type of throw... These seem to be very difficult expecially for most beginners.


Any recomendations would be very welcome.

Thanks in advance

m.decroix
7th October 2001, 21:10
Hi everyone out there!

It would be a good idea...

When I started Jujutsu, it was easy to fall. Since I got some more weight, the landing is harder than I expected... So, any information about doing a right breakfall would be helpful:D

bye!!

m.decroix

Connor Sims
7th October 2001, 23:51
oops -- answered the wrong question (sorry) :(

Steven Malanosk
8th October 2001, 00:40
This is a 3 person exercise:

One person on hands and knees like a horse, in front of you, sideways.

The other person, holds on to your left wrist with their right hand, while they stand to your right, next to the 1st person.

You practice the spinning side fall now, while allowing for extra air time and a more controlled fall.

This also helps you to develope better form in Ukemi Waza
" acceptence Tech"

Be sure to roll into right arm, so as for it to come across the body naturally, so as to be ready to slap.

This should be practiced after you have been taught the spinning side fall, by a competant instructor.

Trial and error is dangerous, so dont to the exercise without being shown the Fall.

Train smart,

taino1
8th October 2001, 15:35
Steven,

Thanks for the suggestion... I'll give that a try as well...

Stevo
8th October 2001, 16:57
Hi Taino1 and m.decroix,

I suggest talking to your sensei. He or she should be able to spot any areas that require attention.

For hip throws, you can use yoko ukemi (sideways flat fall) or o mae ukemi (bridge fall). Always grab your partner's jacket with your free hand. This will give you a little support, as well as a reference point so that you know which way is up - and down - when you get thrown.

For kote gaeshi, the best type of fall will depend upon how you get thrown, eg, backwards or downwards, with the attacker retaining the wrist or with the attacker letting go, etc.

Sideways flat fall might be the best place to start. Sideways rolling fall and backwards rolling fall are also useful. In extreme cases you might even have to do a diagonal flat fall or diagonal rolling fall, but this is rare.

Without seeing the technique and the roll, the best general advice I can give is (a) go with the attacker to reduce the chance of injury to the wrist, (b) always slap off hard with the palm of your free hand to absorb the impact of the throw. and (c) practise the techniques VERY SLOWLY with a partner you can trust. Preferably with your sensei watching and giving you feedback.

How long have you been training for, and what are the specific problems you'd like to eliminate? For example, are you landing heavily, or hurting your arm / elbow / shoulder, etc? :smilejapa

Walker
8th October 2001, 20:48
A good one for a wrist turn is to hold a partner’s hand like you are shaking hands or hold their wrist. Then facing like you are going to go over your own arm bob forward lowering your head toward the mat over the arm while bending at the waist. You end up looking like those toys we got as kids that were like a bird drinking out of a glass of water. The toy bobed forward several times then righted itself. After two or three bobs go over, keep hold of you partner’s hand for support and land.
Several tips. Keep back straight as you bend. Let the floating foot swing up in time with your bend forward. Try to replace the foot on the ground with your head. That foot should feel like it is swept out of the way by your head as you go over. Relax. Let the other arm precede your body and you will automatically slap at the correct time.

For hip throws some suggestions would be to start slow barely sliding off your partner’s hips. Once on the ground correct your ‘landing’ position. Slowly build speed. A good partner should be able to almost set you on the ground. Also if it is up to you to grab an arm as you go over (as in many aikido koshis) don’t grab too soon. Let it come naturally in its own time.

Good luck, have fun. Focusing on the ukemi can be a really fun way to practice for a change.

taino1
8th October 2001, 21:33
Stevo,

Thanks for your advise and the detail information. Actually, I been practicing for a fairly short time, less than a year. When I watch more experience practioners or my instructor, who are highly talented, it seems very simple.

Some people can transmit this sort of knowledge easier than others; therefore, I'm always looking for a better and correct way to fall and a way to fall that feels more comfortable for me.

In my particular case, I'm looking for a way not to fall so hard on the mat and still disipate the energy. I'm trying to adopt the "two sound" Ukemi(as opposed to one solid bang on the mat) to ensure I break the fall correctly, but still fall hard during most medium to high falls.
The other issue is with Kote Gaeshi and the wrist being held through the technique. In some cases it is very hard to complete the ukemi rotation because of the speed, and in another case the issue is more of a mental block performing the ukemi rotation on one side but doing this fine on the other side.

Also, could you elaborate on the "Bridge Fall" you mentioned?

I must comment again that I have a very talented instructor. As I mentioned, I'm always looking for a better way or Idea to improve my skills in this area and perfect my ukemi.

I realize that it's difficult to recommend or suggest without seing the technique; however, any ideas or general explanations would be fine with me. Actually, any of this I would be performing in class supervised by a qualified instructor, simply adjusting my ukemi technique based on the pointers to find what works for me.


Thanks for your insights!!

MarkF
9th October 2001, 09:42
I couldn't give better ukemi instructions to the relatively uninitiated than Doug Walker, but a suggestion would be: Ask a judoka, not because I am, or prefer this to other variations on ukemi, but simply because an experienced judoka studies ukemi more as a kata, and also, as Doug said, a game can be made from it, something I've not seen in other MA, and is a lot of fun. With a decent imagination, all sorts of games can be "played (these are very good instructive games)." Some can't be done in the very beginning, but after a while... Let the Games Begin!

I won't get into specifics, such as falling from a throw beginning with kote gaeshi, but there are general excercises all leading up to the time when ukemi becomes a reflex rather than a response.

Uki-goshi is a great throw. It is the throw used by Jigoro Kano to teach many points of Kuzushi, but as said before, and since a successful uki goshi doesn't have to end with uke in front, done slowly, and repeatedly, it does help learning how to fall, when to slap the mat (slapping is also something which eventually can go to the wayside, but it takes a lot of time), what position the floating foot should be when taking ukemi (this is very important and I can't stress it too often to my students. Severely breaking an ankle at a young age because of poor placement does that to people).

But basically, all ukemi comes from the small ukemi we all learn in the beginning. Adults also take longer to "get it" than do younger students, so patience, a lot of it is necessary. Forward falls from the knees can help ease the fear most have falling this way. Back falls from a squat can start with a rolling ukemi, then from the standing position, the same type, and eventually, forward and backward rolling ukemi teaches more than some think because it seems only newbies do this, but it should never be overlooked. It also begins to teach "rolling out" from nage.

So after the student begins to have faith, other games can be done. A side fall, from a general koshiwaza, can be practiced by having one student at a distance, then charging, running by, grabbing the eri (lapel) of the uwagi, throwing oneself up in the air, and coming down on the side, still grabbing the jacket, with "tori" also grabbing with both hands to ease the fall. Eventually, you will be imagining your tori, and throwing yourself upwards, coming down hard. This is not an easy fall to take, but it is important as time goes by.

For foreward back falls, rolling forward with head tucked leads to doing a forward flip and landing on the back, but not flat. This is easier than it seems. Having one helping you fall is always the preference, but in a forward flip, you, yourself, and your sensei have to be in charge. It can be done with an advanced student or teacher acting as a "spotter." If a student is already in the habit of tucking the head, this exercise is pretty easy, landing only on the upper back, with the hips elevated, both arms hitting and slapping the mat, and on your feet, balls of the feet is preferable. Bring the arms all the way off the mat so that the hands crossed will make it much less painful. Don't forget, your body is taking the force of the fall. If you hit with feet flat, it brings the entire back and spine down on the mat, increasing the likely hood of injury, but I've never seen any injury for this exercise. This is more of a teaching/have faith type of exercise, and is not something which must be done in every class. It is the best I know for training to hit the mat on your back.

Once it becomes more natural to the student, then games are almost always required as there must be a fair amount of enjoyment and success in what we do. I know, this suggests competition, but life is like that most of the time.

Mark

Stevo
9th October 2001, 13:32
G'day Taino1,

You mentioned "dissipation of energy", so I thought I'd cover this one first.

To dissipate the energy of the fall, you have to increase the surface area of the body in contact with the mat. Spreading the impact of the fall over a larger surface area lessens the pressure on any part of the body in contact with the floor.

Specifically, for sideways flat fall, the areas in contact with the mat should be the palm of the hand, the forearm excluding the elbow, and the side of the thigh excluding the knee and the hip.

The energy is also dissipated when you land on the "soft" parts of the body. These spread a little on impact. The bony bits don't.

Whether you find the "two hit" method better or not depends on how you're thrown. If you get thrown vertically, your head and shoulders land near your partner's ankles first. This means that the palm of your hand comes into play first. Half a second later, as your feet get flung out away from your partner, the side of your thigh comes into play. The timing of the downwards strike with your hand is critical. In this example, it must come before the thigh hits the floor.

If your partner doesn't throw you vertically, you usually land with your shoulder near their left foot and your hips near their right foot (assuming a right-handed throw). This normally happens when your partner doesn't use enough left hip. As a result, you slide off their right hip. In this case your hips are almost always lower than your shoulders. Therefore you land on your thigh before you are able to strike down effectively with your left hand.

How you hit off is also critical. The hit is only effective if it is underneath your centre of gravity, ie, your hips. If you arm is at ninety degrees to your body when you land, the hit is ineffective because it isn't underneath you. Keep your arm parallel to your body and your hand close to your thigh.

The fall is also harder if you land more on your back than your side. If you're too much on your back, you can't use the side of your thigh for the fall, and you can't get your striking hand underneath your centre of gravity. The front of your hips and shoulders should make an angle of about 60 degrees to the surface of the mat.

Bring your knees up to your chest for the fall. This brings your C of G closer to your shoulders, making the hit off more effective. It also stabilises the landing, is easier to defend from, and stops your ankles from getting slammed into the ground under centrifugal force. You don't notice this when you use mats, but you WILL if you get thrown on floorboards or concrete.

Hope this helps! If this is digestible, I'll add a little more in the next post re. kote gaeshi and "bridgefall". Cheers!
:toast:

taino1
9th October 2001, 16:03
Stevo, Walker, and Mark -

Thanks so much for all the tips and suggestions. I'm definitely going to be busy trying all of these.

This is great stuff!!

Thanks again!

efb8th
20th October 2001, 15:20
Hi, All.

This brief article may help out.

http://www.danzan.com/HTML/INST/uk0002.html

Regards,

efb8th
21st October 2001, 00:37
Hi, Again, everybody.

Now that I've had a chance to ruminate on it, here are my teaching tips for the first timer on the mat (DanZanRyu & Judo).

I separate the student from the general class and talk to him or her about the theory of Sutemi (sacrificing one's position) and Ukemi (Falling Ways). I stress that I had a genuine fear of falling when I started, and after 35 years, I fall pretty well.

Then I have the student lie on his back, flat on the mat, and tuck his chin tight against his throat. I tell him to sit up, keeping the chin tucked with his arms crossed, then fall to his back as he breathes out. We practice this technique until uke can fall in this manner with no discomfort. Then I demonstrate the seated back fall, which is no more or less than the first seated fall with a two-handed slap.

We practice this technique until uke can fall in this manner with no discomfort. Then I have uke bend his legs and place his left knee on the mat and right foot (resting on its ball) at right angles to the mat. I then have him lift his right arm (palm out) to protect his face and slap with his extended left arm in the traditional Ha-Uchi (beating of the wing) movement. Unless otherwise noted, all slaps whule landing on the back or side are parallel to the same side thigh at about 45 degrees to the body's centerline. After the left side lying fall has been mastered sufficiently to perform it without discomfort, I teach uke to keep his knees bent and roll into the right handed slapping position (roll to his right side.)

We practice this technique until uke can fall in this manner with no discomfort. Then uke practices side-to-side rolling falls. The next level is from sitting on the heels. Go through the same sequence (both hands; Left hand slap, thrust the left leg forward into a side fall, rolling gently back and same for right side.) Try it from a higher squat. Take your time. Each time assure we practice this technique until uke can fall in this manner with no discomfort.

By the end of a lively one-hour session, uke is well on the way to losing his fear of falling, and should, with some discretion, should be able th enter group ukemi.

Regards,