Uechiryu, a Ryukyuan art?

[Martin H]

Why is Uechiryu listed among the ryukyuan arts?
Kambun Uechi learned his art in china, did not teach it when he went home to okinawa not even to his family) and opened his first dojo 1924 after moving to mainland japan.
The first uechiryu dojo on okinawa was established 1945 by Kanei Uechi (the son of Kambun).

I am not trying to put Uechiryu down, as I rather like the style, but I would like to know why it is concidered a OKINAWAN art.

Martin Hultgren

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Interesting situation indeed. I believe that if the style is currently okinawan based, it is enough to make it "okinawan art" nowadays. In history, though, the issue seems a bit vague.

However, I've understood that the Uechi-ryu method is pretty much at "home" with Okinawan karate. So, despite the history isn't all-okinawan, Uechi-ryu seems to "fit in the family".

[arnie]

Just speculating, but here goes:
Maybe it wouldn't have been very easy to "sell" in Japan if it had been a chinese art?
Mr Uechi was, correct me if I'm wrong, okinawan himself, and it was "his" art?
By the way; if papa Uechi didn't teach even his family, how on earth could Uechi jr teach something he had never studied in the first place?
Hoping to learn more,
Ari Lappinen

[Martin H]

Originally posted by arnie
Just speculating, but here goes:
Maybe it wouldn't have been very easy to "sell" in Japan if it had been a chinese art?
Mr Uechi was, correct me if I'm wrong, okinawan himself, and it was "his" art?
By the way; if papa Uechi didn't teach even his family, how on earth could Uechi jr teach something he had never studied in the first place?
Hoping to learn more,
Ari Lappinen

Ofcourse K. Uechi marketed himself as karate or tode, while in japan, however I was wondering why his art is listed as a uchinadi (original okinawan art) where other styles with its roots in okinawa and created by okinawian masters are spurned as japanese karate.

Kamun Uechi was a teacher of kungfu (pwang-gay-noon (Sp?) style) in china before returning to okinawa 1910 (no small thing for a okinawan to do in china back then), however one of his students killed a opponent in a brawl, and Uechi, horrified, stopped teaching and practicing his art.

Many years later one of his chinese students convinced him to put on a demo, that would grant him instant fame and reputation as a master.

Kambun Uechi did not teach anyone until he moved to mainland japan 1924, once he was there he relented and opened up a school.

I have differing information on Kambun Uechi, some say that he stayed in Osaka and continued to teach until he died there 1948, while other claim that he returned to okinawa 1947 and died there 1948.

Anyway, Kanei Uechi started learning karate 1930 and had 15 years to learn from his father, before moving back to okinawa 1945.

Martin hultgren

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Just to correct the spelling:

Uechi's karate has often been said to be "Pangai Noon Ryu", adding "Ryu" to the end of "Pangai Noon".

Jussi Häkkinen

[kusanku]

For information:
Uechi Ryu as taught by Kanei Sensei was developed from the older style taught by Kanbun, which was a Chinese art now identified as Nanpa Toro Ken, or Southern Fist Praying Mantis style.

The new style known as Uechi Ryu was developed after Kanbun Sensei's passing by Kanei and many other senior students of Kanbun, one of whom was Toyama Sensei, who today heads an organization called the Uechi Ryu Zankai which has as its aim the preservation of the old way taught by Kanbun. There are significant differences between the old way and the other styles of Uechi Ryu.

If anyone is interested, contact the Uechi Ryu Zankai c/o Seizan Sensei, who after Toyama Sensei is the chief instructor designate at the Zakimi Dojo in Okinawa.

Uechi Ryu Zankai does maintain a couple of homepages, if you do a Google search on Uechi ryu Zankai, you should find them. Many interesting articles, and Seizan Sensei is a person whom, if approached with courtesy, will reciprocate with same.Very fine gentleman.

Pangai noon is an Okinawan pronunciation of Han Gai Ngon, a southern Chinese dialect phrase meaning half hard style, a descriptive term rather than a style name. The fact that after Kanei Sensei's passing, some organizations took the name of Pangainoon ryu, added to the general Western misunderstanding, but they and the modern Uechi folks,, are all also very fine practitioners and people.

I am not a practitioner of Uechi Ryu but do admire the style and am friends with practitioners of both thte old and new styles, and if I got any of this wrong, I am sure someone will appear and correct any misinformation I may have unwittingly given.

The Old Kyohan, a book explaining the originds of both the old and the new styles of Uechi Ryu, goes far deeper into this than I can.Alkso, the instructors and style heads of these systems can do this , as well. Just thought I'd do the service of putting this information up, for those interested. Thus, the old style is in fact a Chinese art, taught in Fujian provincce, which Kanbun Uechi both studied and taught, in China. The new style is in fact, an Okinawan style of Karate, based on the Chinese style. They have many more similarities than differences, when compared to other systems of karate.

The old style is much softer, more relaxed, and contains a different philosophy of reral self defence and even of practice, than the newer one. I am no authority on it, so I will not try to describe the differences in these two very fine karate systems stemming from Kanbun and his son, Kanei Uechi.

[arnie]

Thank you gentlemen!
I was (as I mentioned) hoping to learn more, wich I did!
Thank you (all) for that, and sorry (Martin) about my stupid questions!
I will probably continue posting stupid questions on this forum, because they tend to bring out informative answers.


so long,
Ari Lappinen

[Martin H]

Originally posted by arnie
Thank you gentlemen!
I was (as I mentioned) hoping to learn more, wich I did!
Thank you (all) for that, and sorry (Martin) about my stupid questions!
I will probably continue posting stupid questions on this forum, because they tend to bring out informative answers.


so long,
Ari Lappinen

Stupid question?
I have not seen any :-)

Your question forced me to read up on a style that I admire (and that was rather enjoyable) and then get some other facts that I never encountered before (not unpleasant either) from others (thanks kusanku).

I never knew that pangai noon (hanging my head at my butchered spelling) ryu existed, and although I still have trouble regarding Uechiryu as a okinawan style, I realy enjoyed learning more about it.

So keep those questions coming :-)
That is what e-budo is all about.

Martin Hultgren

[JohnRay]

Hi folks, For a very good description of Uechi-ryu, its history, and many of the techniques, I'd like to mention my good friend and dojo mate, Alan Dollar, and his book,"Mysteries of Okinawan Karate". It does focus on the Shinjo family's form of Uechi-ryu, but includes information on the system in general.
John Ray

[Jabonn]

"and although I still have trouble regarding Uechiryu as a okinawan style" by Martin H.

I guess my question is; Is Uechi ryu any less Okinawan than Goju, Isshin, or Shorin?

Do these styles not all have links to China? Were the originators of the styles not from Okinawa?

The short story:

Uechi Kanbun left for China - Uechi came back to Okinawa after his studies in China for a period of time - Uechi leaves Okinawan and finds a work in a factory in Japan - Uechi teaches the Okinawans that worked in the local factories while in Japan - Uechi passes away and is returned to Okinawa.

Mr. Ray's post is right on the money. Alan Dollar's book on Uechi ryu is a great starting point for anyone wanting to learn more about Uechi ryu.

You can find Mr. Dollar's book at:

www.alandollar.com (http://www.alandollar.com)

Jabonn Flurry

[Martin H]

Mr. Flurry

Goju was created by Miyagi who learned his art in okinawa, and later traveled to china to deepen his knowledge.
His teacher in okinawa was Kanryu Higashionna who also had learned the BULK, but not all, of his knowledge in china. (I readily admit that goju is very close to chinese arts).

Isshin and shorin do both draw its roots from china, but has developed in okinawa for a long time.

Uechi traveled to china without okinawan martial skill (that I ever heard of atleast), and learned ALL his skills there. He founded his own variant of his skills while living on the mainland.
As far as I know he NEVER studied karate on okinawa.

As for the short story. Here is another one.
Funakoshi lives in okinawa and learns karate from teachers of styles of karate thats developed there for a long time (although they too have its roots in china, but much further back in time). He travels from okinawa and found a style, from his own variant of his skills, on the mainland and dies there.
Yet his art, shotokan is not considered an okinawan art.

I admit that the question of my topic might be pointing the finger a bit, but it was a very good example. I guess a better question to have asked would be "what distinguishes (sp?) a okinawan karate style from a japanese karate style?"

-It is not the origin, shotokan can trace its roots much more firmly to okinawa than uechi (or indeed goju, although to a lesser degree).
-That it was founded on okinawa? not true in Uechiryus case, and makes it very easy to create a "New" uchinadi. Simply go there knowing some skill, any martialart skill, and start a new style.
-It is not the origin of the creator, Funakoshi and Uechi was both okinawan in origin (as was several others).
-It is not if it is practiced on okinawa, Kyokushin is practiced in some okinawan dojos, yet it is NOT a okinawan style.
-Is it where is hombu (headquarter) is located?, then would kyokushin become a uchinadi if it moved is hombu to okinawa?
-Is it appearence? if it looks okinawan it is okinawan? yeah right :-)
-Is it the skills included? If you can find a set of skill that is included in all the uchinadis and none of the japanese karate styles I will admit that you have a point. (and if these skill was to be included in a japanese style?would they then also be uchinadi)

Is it simply a question of politics?

Btw. I am NOT advocating shotokan or kyokushin to be considered uchinadi, but I would like to know why a style is, or is not, regarded as one.
Who decides and _how_?
As for Uechiryu I have nothing but good impressions of it as a style.

I cannot enter Mr Dollar site at the url provided, but I will take a look at his book when I can get a hold of it (at the moment, I have already over-extended my martial art expense account on gear and books, for quite some time to come).

Martin Hultgren

[Jabonn]

Mr. Hultgren,



Uechi traveled to china without okinawan martial skill (that I ever heard of atleast), and learned ALL his skills there. He founded his own variant of his skills while living on the mainland.

Borrowed from Alan Dollar's Book "Secrets of Uechi Ryu Karate and Mysteries of Okinawa" pg. 55
"Kanbun learned bojutsu from exposure to Motobu experts such as Taru Kise and Kamato Toyozato, as well as his father. Kantoku Kanbun often taught the younger people of his area and led bo demonstrations......
An aged martial arts master from Tabaru Named Toyama instilled in Kanbun the desire to pursue martial arts training in China. Toyama had visited China many times to study the martial arts and bojutsu. He did not leave a historic mark on Okinawa, but inlufuenced many youn men the the Motobu peninsula, including Kanbun Uechi."


I wish more information was available about Uechi Kanbun's martial arts training while on Okinawa. The text and books I have read all describe Uechi's martial arts training starting in Okinawa.

Jabonn Flurry

[Wu Wei]

Very interesting thread.

Kusanku, I'm curious where you found your information. I've done some research but never came across your information - it's very interesting.

Thanks.

[Martin H]

Originally posted by Jabonn
"Kanbun learned bojutsu from exposure to Motobu experts such as Taru Kise and Kamato Toyozato, as well as his father. Kantoku Kanbun often taught the younger people of his area and led bo demonstrations......

Thankyou for the information, I have never come across that before.
That gives uechiryu firmer okinawan base in my eyes, as I think it is safe to assume that the bojutsu of the mentioned masters included at least a little empty hand training. Although I wonder how much of it made it into uechiryu.

I am still curious about the criterias to be accepted as a uchinadi, though :-)

Martin Hultgren

[kusanku]

Wu Wei asks:'Kusanku, I am curious as to where you came up with your information.'

Of course. I recieved this informationm as to the existence of the 'Old Style ' Uechi taught by Kanbun Sensei, by reading the Uechi Ryu Forums moderated at Geroge Mattson's sites at www.uechiryu.com if I am not mistaken, on Van Canna Sensei's Self Defense Realities Forum.

He was contacted by the Senior student of Toyama Seiko Sensei on Okinawa, and alowed to filter certain information to the public through his forums.

This was in the interest of accurate history, it was emphasized that this was not being promoted asd a better style, just a different style, of Uechi Ryu., and Toyama Sensei, is one of the people who, with Kanei Sensei, vcreated the present style of Uechi Ryu, so he should in fact be well aware of both. He studied directly from Kanbun Sensei in the Wakayama doj in Japan for at least ten years if memory serves.

I do not wish to say too much here, as I am not a representative of the Zankai Uechu ryu, but if you do a Google search on Uechi ryu Zankai, you should find two websites that are official, at least.

That run by Seizan Sensei, on Okinawa, and that run by Major Drew Doolin, in the U.S., are nboth authroized representatives, Seizan Sensei is the Senior student of Toyama Sensei on Okinawa, and runs the Zakimi Dojo there.

If anyone approaches either website owner with courtesy and honest interest, results may well be forthcoming in the way of some more details,that would be up to them, of course, and I do not speak for their fine organization, although I do maintain quite friendly relations with them.Seixzan Sensei and I have communicated oin some occasions and I have been allowed to access some artticles and informastion pertinent to the history and training of the Uechi Ryu Zankai. What I will say here, is that the style is very much a Chinese art, emphasizing relaxed and natural movement, and heath, much more than more modern systems may.For that alone it is worth looking at seriously.

But the martial aspects also, are somewhat different, and again, I emphasize, different, not sayoing better, than modern Uechi derivatives.For them however, as for more detailed information, please go to the source, a Google search wil yield some information just by visiting the above mentioned websites.

Any mistakes in facts or opinions stated in my posts is to be regarded as solely due to my own ignorance and not to any members of the Uechi Ryu Zankai.

Regards,