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Andrew Craig
8th October 2001, 13:56
I realise this might not be exactly the right place for this but I thought I might get the most practical suggestions here.

My girlfriend is an optician. She was nearly assaulted on Saturday by a patient she was supposed to perform an eye test on. When he arrived he appeared normal, but when he went into the testing room (5 by 6 feet) he became irate and finally aggressive. He nearly punched her in the face but must have thought better of it because he didn’t. She left the room as she heard the practice manager just outside. The practise manager asked the patient to leave. The patient was then very apologetic and said sorry for his behaviour. No harm done this time but it is a cause of concern for me that something more serious could have happened.

The practice is usually fairly quiet and the testing room is on a separate floor to the rest of the practice. There is a panic button in the testing room, which would alert the rest of the staff in the practice (typically 2 or 3 female colleagues usually working on the floor below). The staff have a mutual agreement that if the alarm rings they will all drop whatever they are doing and go to the assistance of the person who set off the alarm.

So here comes the question.

Given the above details what sensible precautions could she make to avoid such a situation occurring in the future or to thwart any attempted attack?

My own thoughts so far are that it is easy to avoid going into the room with anyone who is behaving in an obviously suspicious way, but not so to avoid people who appear to be behaving “normally”.

If something were to happen again the problem seems to be in being in such close proximity to the assailant. It would be easy for them to grab you and prevent you escaping. To that end I have told her to keep a bottle of hydrogen peroxide (used to disinfect contact lenses ) to hand to squirt in the face of an assailant, after getting it in my own eyes once (a contact lens accident :cry: :) ) I know it would be debilitating! Additionally I am going to teach her some simple vital point strikes and grab releases, also some pen/kubotan, so she could escape if grabbed.

If anyone could suggest anything more practical or criticise my thoughts so far I would greatly appreciate the insight of those who know better.

Thanks for your help.

Cady Goldfield
8th October 2001, 15:15
It sounds to me like the patient may possibly have been claustrophobic. In such cases, you wouldn't be able to tell (no "suspicious" behavior) until the individual is in the small, closed space and panic takes over his self-control and rationale.

Maybe your girlfriends' employer could ask the simple question, "Do small, closed spaces make you uncomfortable?" before going in there for an exam.

As to your question about what to "teach" your girlfriend for self-defense in such instances, if she doesn't have prior martial or aggressive-athletic experience and conditioning, it will take a very long time to instill any skills in her that she will be able to use. Being able to respond to sudden and spontaneous violence, such as punching and flailing, requires conditioning, either over time and in intensive training. As a female who has years of such conditioning and who has attempted to teach self-defense to women, I feel uneasy about giving a previously untrained person (male or female) a handful of "techniques" and expecting them to be able to put them to effective use.

Furthermore, I'd be careful about suggesting the use of irritant sprays to subdue an aggressive or assaultive patient. When a person is irrational from phobia, drug use or whatever, he or she will not respond to things that a "normal" person would. I once had to break the leg of a man high on PCP because he would not stop coming at me despite pain-inducing "self-defense" blows I'd used. Nothing short of mechanical failure will stop someone who is high or phobic, or even just enraged and "high" on adrenalin.

The security set-up they use now makes sense for their circumstances. I agree that being alert to abnormal behavior the instant the patient enters the building, is a good idea. You can observe psychosis, aggressiveness, drug/alcohol influence and that sort of thing and plan accordingly -- refuse to admit the patient; call Security or police to remove him or her.

Andrew Craig
8th October 2001, 15:41
Thanks for the swift reply Cady,

The claustrophobia suggestion is a good one but I don’t think that was necessarily the problem here.

A quick clarification…

The patient in question was becoming irate because his regular optician referred him to a hospital. The ophthalmologist at the hospital referred him back to an optician. So he decided to try out the practice where my girlfriend works. He felt he was being messed around by the system and tried to take it out on her. Also in the UK some people qualify for a free eye test on the NHS (national health service). He had already had one in the last six months, so he would have to pay for this test. My girlfriend tried to explain he would only have to pay for the test (£18) and any treatment i.e. spectacles but he became angry as he believed there would be other hidden charges sprung on him later. That is when he became aggressive. (The practice manager found this out when talking to him afterwards)

I appreciate the advice about teaching any physical response to an attack. From what you wrote is it right to infer the only practical thing to do would be to encourage her into some kind of long term “self defence” training?

Also I had no idea about irritants being ineffective in discouraging an attacker. Thanks for the practical insight.

The bottom line is still what can she physically do, if she finds herself in the room with a patient and is attacked, to give her time to get out of the testing room and get help?

Cady Goldfield
8th October 2001, 16:04
Hi Andrew,

Use of pepper sprays, Mace, and other spray irritants is among the most overrated of the "self-defense" tactics. A lot of people who are aggressive and enraged -- without drugs or any other help -- will not stop their assault after being sprayed. It can even make them more violent. And... the person using can end up getting sprayed herself. I don't recommend it, but that's just my opinion.

Since I don't know your girlfriend, I will not presume to recommend training for her.Not only is it an arduous process that requires discipline, desire and drive, it is also difficult for a neophyte to find the right instructor who can provide competent training. Too many "McDojos" around that look good to the newbie, but which teach "dojo bunny" techniques that are not applicable to "real life."

IMO (and not a humble one -- my apologies -- because I've been around the block more than a few times!), given your girlfriend's apparent circumstances, her best bet is alertness and teamwork for all of the staff at her place of employ. Perhaps they could bring in a security expert for an overview and consultation on how to screen and handle difficult patients. I'd hesitate to suggest any sort of physical training for them; more they should get tips on prevention, and be on the ready to bring in security assistance if needed.

Depending on the location of the practice and the typical clientele, savvy businesses often adjust their security to match the environment. I once trained in a martial discipline with a guy who was an ophthalmic photographer. The opthalmologist he worked for kept the door to his office locked, and you had to ring a doorbell and be observed through a monitor before gaining entrance to the waiting room. No patients were accepted off the street -- all had to be referred and screened prior to making an appointment. This was in New York City, 10 years ago. I'm guessing that security is even higher now.

Kit LeBlanc
8th October 2001, 18:00
Andrew,

While I personally think pepper sprays/etc. are a bit more effective than that, I do believe that Cady is right, they can be overrated. A lot of that is user error, but sometimes the person you may most want them to stop will not be, so I would not recommend it as a first line of defence. I defintely would not recommend the hydrogen peroxide, that certainly will probably just tick him off, even assuming you can get it in his eyes!!!

I think Cady is right RE: the self defense argument as well. Without an earnest commitment on her part to use such tactics aggressively they will not work. It can't hurt teaching her a thing or two, like with the pen, say, but there needs to be an equal understanding of the fact that they will not work with everyone and where she stands legally in using such last-ditch methods. A customer may get irate, but try explaining to the police why she stuck a pen in his eye when his explanation will be "I was angry about getting "dicked around" and complained belligerently about it, but I never touched her!!!!"

Sounds to me like this thing built up over a period of time, including in the opticians office. In that case in American society, and I would gather in British society, often the failing is in being too darn polite for our own good. This guy may have already stepped over the line in terms of his actions but was stilll brought back in the interest of "serving the customer" or even "care for the patient." It sounds like warning signs were there and she probably should never have been left alone with him.

Once people start getting *IRATE* and will not be settled in a professional manner, we should give up indulging them. A simple word from the practice manager of "if you continue to use raise your voice, use profanity etc. etc. we will no longer serve you and will have you removed" and send him packing, with a police/security escort if need be. He can be served the next day or a week later as long as he behaves himself. But the practice has to commit to doing that as well, and the opticians need to stand up for their own safety and say that if a patient is being particularly unreasonable, refuse to help him.

Not sure if you have this book in the UK but it is called The Gift of Fear. By Gavin Debecker. Dell books. A great read for just this type of thing. Some kind of violence in the workplace training may be helpful as well.

Andrew Craig
9th October 2001, 00:09
Cady,

Unfortunately the practice is on a high street. In the UK a practice is more like a store open to the public so people can view the spectacle frames and other products. A locked door policy would obviously be the best solution but sadly not possible here.

With regard to her suitability for entering training, she is very spirited! I think she could be taught to use a few basics, like levering out of a wrist grab using both hands or striking with a pen etc. i am fairly certain she would not want to enter into a long term training commitment.

I don’t think some basics could make a situation any worse especially with the caveats Kit made, i.e. that she knows it is a last ditch resort and might not work on everyone etc.

Kit thanks, I will look into the book you recommended.

I have already given her Dead or Alive by Geoff Thompson a very well known self-defence writer in the UK. This book is outstanding. It covers things such as an attackers body language, attack rituals such as verbal engagement and adrenal response. It also has information about "target hardening" and the colour - awareness system. There are even several interviews with perpetrators and victims of violent crime. I guess awareness and prevention is better than cure.

Thanks for the tip about the peroxide. I guess I must just be a wimp because when I got just a drop in my eye I couldn’t see a thing and the pain was excruciating!

I will start her with some kubotan strikes using a pen in a reverse grip.

I was taught, as a non-lethal defence against a grab to dig the point into something fleshy like a bicep and then to carve up the arm until you get a release.

Does this seem reasonable? I intend to drill this regularly with her for 5-10 mins at a time. (I will invest in a felt tip pen especially :) )

Or would you suggest I show her more serious targets like the carotid, or sub-clavian arteries.

I realise nothing ever works 100% of the time but my gut feeling is that anything she did would be better than nothing. An interesting observation made in the book I referred to above, is that people who fight back as victims of crime often suffer lesser injuries than those who don’t and also recover more quickly as they feel better about themselves for having done something rather than being passive.

Again thanks for your comments all greatfully accepted

luihu
9th October 2001, 15:03
First I have to admit that I think that with trying to teach your girlfriend some MA skills will probably ruin your relationship with her;)
Just joking.

If you are going to teach her something, I would start by advising her that the best way of avoiding situations as mentioned, is to get out in public area. If she is alone in the room and situation starts to get too serious, she should open the door, maybe with some excuse, and get the attention of her colleagues. Being precautious increases safety. In our hospitals it is usual, that if the patient might behave aggressively, there will be more than just one person at the room with him.

In Finland we have this saying, that the best self-defense is not karate, it is "karata" which translated to english means to run away. Before you start to teaching her punches and wristlocks, it wouldn´t be a bad option to rehearse some strategies (even fast ones, like running past you) to get out of the room without any physical contact. Who wants to be a hero? I prefer not to be.

As for sprays I am between Cad and Kit. Pepper sprays are the best, but there is a possibility, that you won´t hit the target or opponent has already a grab and only gets blind and furious.

József Pap

Kit LeBlanc
10th October 2001, 00:42
Originally posted by Andrew Craig


Thanks for the tip about the peroxide. I guess I must just be a wimp because when I got just a drop in my eye I couldn’t see a thing and the pain was excruciating!

I will start her with some kubotan strikes using a pen in a reverse grip.

I was taught, as a non-lethal defence against a grab to dig the point into something fleshy like a bicep and then to carve up the arm until you get a release.

Does this seem reasonable? I intend to drill this regularly with her for 5-10 mins at a time. (I will invest in a felt tip pen especially :) )

Or would you suggest I show her more serious targets like the carotid, or sub-clavian arteries.

I realise nothing ever works 100% of the time but my gut feeling is that anything she did would be better than nothing. An interesting observation made in the book I referred to above, is that people who fight back as victims of crime often suffer lesser injuries than those who don’t and also recover more quickly as they feel better about themselves for having done something rather than being passive.

Again thanks for your comments all greatfully accepted

Andrew,

I agree, anything is better than nothing, and if more people were willing to fight back this would be a better world.

But just a clarification. I do not mean to imply that you are *wimpy,* rather that you cannot base how others may be affected by some self defense move or "chemical intervention" on your own reaction to the same thing.

Many a self defense/martial arts class is filled with normal, generally nice, blue and white collar business people who have never faced a truly violent encounter with an individual unknown to them. They are taught various "can't miss" moves and techniques by instructors who happen to also be cut from the same normal and nice cloth, also inexperienced in dealing with real violence.

Problem is all this is based on a THEORETICAL approach to self defense, assuming that the perpetrators will be affected by the same techniques that work on the tax accountant, the biology major, the lawyer, and the librarian whom they train with in a safe and supportive dojo environment, where no one wants to get hurt because they have to work the next day, and no one wants to hurt someone else because, well, nice people don't do that to each other.

What most people do not realize is that when dealing with someone who is willing to make a public scene as you described, you are not dealing with a normal person, or at least not one whom is acting normally. Why? Their mindset has changed. This may be a guy whose brain just happens to work differently. He may not be a criminal, rather someone who goes around his daily life pissed off at every second of the day. After a while this perpetually angry mindset CHANGES them, their reactions to things and people, etc. He may not be affected by things the same way as someone in a different frame of mind may be. He might be, but might not, and you have to be prepared for both eventualities. Instead of your 100% figure, I would say the effectiveness ratio is a lot closer to 50/50, and you need to prepare your girlfriend for that.

Lest all this sound like too much pop psychology, let me state that they are opinions formed from working for a few years in a law enforcement capacity. The kinds of folks that cause such public disturbances such as you describe, that threaten and bully people they perceive to be weaker than they are rarely mister "live and let live." For whatever reason they tend to be the "type A" folks with a lot of extra baggage, often fueled with alcohol or legal and illegal drugs, and generally not particularly empathetic as to how other people feel. Many of these folks could care less who they hurt, and if angry enough, could care less how much they hurt.

So, the peroxide may work, the pen may work, the pepper spray may work. But they may not, and it depends on who you happen to be dealing with. I have watched people in the midst of an aggressive mental breakdown take a small squirt of pepper spray to the eyes and it finished the fight, they cried and moaned like babies. I have heard of people taking multiple 9mm or 45 rounds that kept coming and would not be stopped by something as pathetic as a lowly handgun round.

You never know which one you are dealing with.

Andrew Craig
11th October 2001, 21:28
Thanks Kit, great advice

By the way, I wasn't put out by the peroxide thing, I was just reflecting on how such a small amount of what looks essentially a harmless liquid had me rolling around on the floor crying like a little girl!!!! ;) It seems quite funny, especially in the light of what other people here have said about (partial) immunity to sprays under some circumstances. (I know this media can not always represent the subtle shades of meaning in a conversation, so I hope it didn't appear that I was offended)

I was apprehensive about posting to this particular forum section, but I am glad I did as I now have much food for thought (as much for my own benefit as for my girlfriend). I know I am probably not cut out for the sharp edge of police or military work, so it is doubtful I will ever gain your kind of first hand experience. However I still want to be as best prepared as possible to protect my self and my loved ones. I really appreciate the fact that you, Jozef and Cady took time out to respond. Hopefully people in my position can learn from your practical experiences of what is good and what is not, without finding out the hard way.

Thanks again,

John Bowden
25th October 2001, 14:57
Personally, unless your GF wants to undertake
serious self defense training, you are better off working on identification, deescalation and exclusion skills. The practice should have a zero tolerance policy for any rude behaviour to staff. Anyone who uses profanity or other acts aggressively should as a matter of policy be asked/forced to leave immediately.

You can have a highly trained fighter in a situation, and without proper procedures, still end up with this fighting machine getting his clock cleaned because he wasn't operating on a sound procedural basis.

Some people believe in cutting alot of slack for people who will "correct" their behaviour. This is a matter of personal choice. I for one would immediately and politely eject anyone becoming even verbally abusive with any of my people in any fashion.

It's alot easier to eject them before they have gone completely bananas on you.