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Gigante
10th October 2001, 13:23
How well does ju-jutsu do against realistic knife attacks?
Do you train how to counter FMA techniques ?

Best regards,
Johan Eliasson.

Graham Wild
10th October 2001, 15:37
I should let Neil or Stevo answer this as they actually do jujutsu (I am mostly an aikidoka) but I think the school uses the same principles in tanto tori whether it is in aikido or jujutsu. Any way most of the techniques are classic Japanese stabs and thrusts that we usually practice against. When you get some one who has a butterfly knife and knows how to use it my sensei says you should use an object such as a bag, belt, shoe or whatever you've got to defend yourself with.
One thing that I have noticed with a butterfly knife is the attacks are very 'slashy' so rather than the 'big hit' to kill a guy. So if you are willing to get some flesh wounds then you can 'grapple' him. I could be wrong, as I have not actually seen a class or anything just observations from movies and the guys who use to have them in high school.

Gigante
10th October 2001, 15:59
Yes I meant those fast, "slashy" kind of moves they do. And, from what I understand, it's not about flesh wounds, rather they aim at artaries (wrong spelling I think) and muscle tissue, to disable the opponent. You can not grapple the knifer if your biceps'es are cut off...

I can be wrong about this, I know very little about FMA, although I do practice balisong (butterfly knife) manipulation. But that's more like juggling, it's about finger/hand/wrist dexterity, just for show. I don't think it would be a good idea to use a balisong in real combat.

fifthchamber
10th October 2001, 16:42
Hello sir,
I train currently in both Jujutsu and taijutsu (Asayama Ichiden ryu, Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu and others in mixed formats.) and I do believe that Jujutsu can be effective against a knife attack. BUT only after you have learnt how to dodge well enough to avoid the strikes until you are in a position to apply any locks on the knife arm and hopefully restrain the attacker.
We are also taught Goshinjutsu and that generally teaches that the most effective way to disarm someone intent on causing you harm with a blade is to first ensure that you are well out of harms way until you can see an opening and then to move fast enough and assuredly enough to prevent any slashes getting to you.
Obviously this can only truly be attempted after years have been put in to become so confident that you can actually avoid the initial strikes and use reflexive actions to apply the locks. Once on the locks generally are enough to stun the opponent and control him but the whole process is undesirable..If you can run...do it.
(as I learnt a few days ago...If someone has a knife the only 'useful' thing to do to stop him hurting you is to run away from him/her..Do not try and fight him as any cut could be fatal..It is truly not worth it unless you KNOW that you can pull it off...and even then...)
Don't know if this helps but it's my time I guess...
Abayo.

Kit LeBlanc
10th October 2001, 18:07
Go to the Close Quarters Combatives Board and read these threads, that way the entire discussion does not have to be repeated here.

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=7602


http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=7354

edg176
10th October 2001, 20:48
Hello,
I had to think about this before posting, in light of the Sep. 11 attacks, but then again, some of the stuff about FMA being only slashing could get someone killed, so I figured I should say something. So if I'm really vague, technique-wise, please forgive me.

I'd have to say that in my experience in FMA, slashing is what's taught first, but stabbing is definitely there. Often I've seen that the stabs are "hidden" in the slashing motions. The motions are so quick that if you are not used to watching motion at that speed and rythym, you'll totally miss the stabs. Maybe not all practitioners do this, but at least a few that I have seen for sure can. Don't think you can "take" a couple of slashes and grapple because that's a great way to get stabbed multiple times before you even know it.

On the other hand, sometimes the intent of the practitioner isn't to kill but only to wound. Or the instructor doesn't want to train his students in killing moves before he knows them a little better. In that case, slashes are a lot less lethal than stabs. Also, you have to remember the cultural context of the arts. As I understand it, in the Philippines knife duels were and are relatively common, and the death of the opponent is not always the desired outcome. So I think it's important to distinguish the two.

Fifth Chamber, that was a great point about running away. I am in total agreement on that. I think that's by far the best strategy for staying alive!

As far as the balisong goes as a weapon, I think they're great, but I live in California where carrying one in public is a felony, so it's not even an option. The best thing about the balisong to my mind is that it is a very simple design that opens quickly, yet is not dependent on springs and expensive precision parts to function. Plus you can make it double edged without worrying about cutting yourself when it is closed. Yes, opening one is harder than a spyderco, but that's the trade off. Interestingly, I've seen balisongs for sale in China and Korea in some pretty shady areas of town. Makes sense I guess, since the a cheap balisong is much more reliable than a cheap folder.


There's a lot more of this discussion on the CQC threads like Mr. LeBlanc says, but I wanted to add one more thing about the whole disarm thing. A disarm is predicated heavily on the idea that you are going to see the knife deployed, which honestly, unless the guy is a total idiot, you probably won't without training of your own. Marc MacYoung went into this recently on the eskrima digest and on other places on the web.

The problem with a lot of FMA in my experience is that you usually don't learn how to deploy the weapon because, like I said, teachers want to know who they are teaching before they teach students what are admittedly potentially lethal skills. Teaching students what to look for is basically teaching them how to do it.

Respectfully,
Tim Fong

TheWind
22nd October 2001, 20:22
In my time in the Arts, Juijitsu deals with the knife as a small sword. The FMA, a knife is an everyday tool, either as a machete or smaller blade. The slashing moves are part Psycological as to scare and disorient your opponent. And part to slash a blood vessel or muscle. In the FMAs we use the concept of 'defanging the viper'. This is to cut your oppenents hand/wrist to eliminate that as a weapon. Also scares them if they are not really commited to the fight.
Robert Murie 'The Way of One'

Jari Virta
5th November 2001, 09:08
Originally posted by Graham Wild
One thing that I have noticed with a butterfly knife is the attacks are very 'slashy' so rather than the 'big hit' to kill a guy. So if you are willing to get some flesh wounds then you can 'grapple' him.

I wouldn't. I just saw a murder last friday from ten feet distance from the action. One single "slash" and the victim bled to certain death as we stood there. Ambulance guys had nothing really to do when they arrived. It was horrible.

Dale
10th November 2001, 10:30
Is Jujitsu effective against a knife??

Yes! yes it is!!

As for training against realistic knife defenses I wouldn't rain any other way! Jujitsu classes generally train from standardised "classical" attacks because not everyone chooses to persue this avenue of training with such realism. Different students have different goals.

Despite having said this, traditional Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Jujitsu/Bujutsu, the only school which I am qualified to comment on, has the capacity to defend against a "realistic" Knife defense.

The Samurai were not always wearing armour, therefore many attacks needed not to be classical, in order to penetrate armour, but rather skillfull and fast, in order to defeat the fighting prowess of the Samurai.

With no disrespect to any art, it is my opinion that with such an old tradition of combat arts in Japan alone it seems foolish to assume that the FMA were the first to develop such fighting techniques. Therefore it would seem foolish to me to assume that there was noone training defenses to such techniques before the 20th century!

The ethics of feudal Japan may have frowned upon many Jujitsu techniques which today are considered "Practical" but these techiniques were not discarded, rather they were taught as "secret techniques". Think about it, what would you do?? would you ignore ideas that may save your skin in battle??

Anyway that's my 2 cents for today!

Respectfully Yours
Dale Elsdon

P.S. G'day Niel!

Silence_Sucks
12th January 2006, 10:25
The only real situation you would ever be in where you would have to defend against a knife, balisong whatever is on the street. Chances are your attacker isnt an Eskrimador and doesnt know !!!! with that knife other than get close, stab, so i wouldnt worry about him using limb destruction on you. Then again if he does know kali and is good at it then you my friend are !!!!ed.

johan smits
12th January 2006, 15:14
The threads Kit send us don't open for me so just a few thoughts to share with you.

About what form of jujutsu are we talking? Lot's of different styles exist.
Although all jujutsuforms have something good to offer I feel the koryu styles are probably better geared to fighting with and against knifes. Araki-ryu, Shindo Yoshin-ryu, etcetera. The 20th century styles mostly teach techniques against very simple, non-professional attacks.

Jujutsu defenses against knifes mainly teach principle, the attacks are seldom what you would call realistic.

Often they are not meant to be. Can you fight a knife? Only if you must, to run or get out is the best option I have read here. Other, get a weapon of your own. Everything is important, the season, the circumstances, terrain, indoors/outdoors, what are you wearing.

A fomer colleque of mine once told me the following story. His brother took his wife on holliday, can't remember the country (somewhere in Africa or so) they went walking on the beach near seak or lake. They were wearing their swimmingtrousers and had brouhgt their handbags or so. They walked into a group of young men wearing knifes/machetes and went told to hand over their belongiings my colleques brother fought them.
He survived - 160 stitches all over his body and he nearly died.

About seeing the blade, mostly not I think you will probably sense the blade (sticking out of your bottom so to speak).

Fighting against a knife - get in your car and drive him over - oh and I almost forgot, face the legal consequenses.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

niten ninja
12th January 2006, 16:51
"but rather skillfull and fast, in order to defeat the fighting prowess of the Samurai."

Not every samurai is an uber sword master.

kobukai
12th January 2006, 20:32
Please dont take this the wrong way - but I think the question should really be - can Jujutsu techniques help me survive an assasination attempt.

There are no real knife fights. Those only exist in imagination. An attacker will either threaten you with a knife - in which case you run to safety very very fast, or he cuts/stabs you with a knife in whatever manner assures your attacker that you (the victim) will not even know he had a knife. They are trying to assasinate you. They are not trying to give you a bruise with a knife. They are not trying to give you a little nick or the sign of Zorro with a knife. They are trying to cause you to bleed and hopefully die with a knife.

Very occasionally (as in kidnap or as in threatening a third party) the attacker will hold onto you and use a knife as a means of restraint (such as holding your hair while keeping a knife at your throat). He could kill you, but that is not the purpose of the knife at that moment. It is sometimes possible to use Jujutsu against these types of situations (the kidnap stuff).

Some of the falacy in martial art training (which I am not putting down because I have been a jujitsuka for over 25 years) is that there will be a "duel" that you will respond to. It wont and doesnt happen that way. Sociopathic attackers will stack the deck in their favor every time - there will be no duel. You wont see the stab or the slash. You wont execute your technique.

Real self defense means avoidance of an altercation - if you see a knife - create as much distance as possible. If you have to fight in order to protect someone else or for some reason there was no way out (locked in a boxcar with a knife wielding maniac) - then I bet your Jujutsu techniques will work - at least 50% of the time. The other 50% they wont - and you will die.

Spend your time thinking about how to NOT be around bad people with knives. Unless you are a soldier or contractor forced to be in a very dangerous combat zone, dont worry about knife fighting (unless its just because you enjoy the martial art).

Just my opinion after alot of years of experience. But then again - we know what they say about opinions - they are like ...........

NickR
12th January 2006, 20:34
I should hope the style (modern/mixed) Ju Jitsu that I do is effective against knife attacks, as we use real sharps at higher grades.

But as mentioned a lot of it is in the movement stepping away from the direction of the attack and turning your body and directing the attack away from your body.

It was mentioned on another forum that we start this training early, because it will take a LONG time to get the speed and movement right.

There is even defense against forearm slashes (possibly more slashes as well), as well as the usual stabbing motions, but as far as I can tell these attacks are supposed to be from an untrained assailent, Im sure a trained opponent would leave little oppertunity of a positive defense.

MikeWilliams
12th January 2006, 22:28
I should hope the style (modern/mixed) Ju Jitsu that I do is effective against knife attacks, as we use real sharps at higher grades.

Now there's a can of worms.

A couple of questions:

a) since you can't train at full speed with a knife, the attacker is duty bound to modify his techniques in order not to gut his uke, so what possible value does training with 'sharps' serve? Other teaching students to handle weapons with respect. Wouldn't you be better off training with intent and resistance using dummy weapons?

b) Do you train to attack with a knife as well as defend? If not, how can you be sure that your defenses are appropriate?

c) How long before there's a horrible accident, and the Jitsu Foundation goes bust from the resulting lawsuit?

I'm not anti Jitsu Foundation, and I'm not questioning the effectiveness of the techniques, but this aspect of their training has always struck me as being of dubious benefit, at best.

Neil Hawkins
12th January 2006, 22:49
Well, first some moderating, Silence Sucks, welcome, thanks for you input, but will you please sign your posts with your real name, this is our most fundamental rule here at E-Budo.

As to defence against knives, as a person who trains in both jujutsu and arnis I would say that it is possible to defend against FMA style attacks, but few have the skill to do it.

I found that FMA and Jujustu had much in common, and that with practice I could defend against even good knife weilders, but virtually none of the 'traditional' knife defenses would work. The Japanese tended to use the tanto in a similar manner to a sword, slashes and thrusts that were shortened versions of their kenjutsu moves, most of the defenses I learned countered this type of attack.

FMA is much more circular, strikes come from unexpected angles, but they are usually targeting a vital point. I found that to defend against them, you had to cover the knife, close quickly and finish decisively.

However the old adage if you're in a knife fight you're gonna get cut, definitely holds true. This means that you should use the back of your forearm or hand when ever possible to block or deflect so that the tendons and major blood vessels are protected. Don't close unless you have some control over the knife, because it will find its way into your kidney or something, and don't assume that the knife is controlled if the weapon arm is controlled, in Arnis we learned to change hands very rapidly, or conceal a smaller blade in the left hand.

The best solution is to not get into the situation in the first place, the second is to get a weapon of your own with a bit of range. If you do have to take on an FMA guy with a knife, you are fighting for your life, so anything goes.

I strongly recommend that everyone does some FMA training, provided you can find a good teacher, to see how they use the weapons. It is unlike anything else I had ever seen.

Regards

Neil

johan smits
12th January 2006, 22:54
Honestly the best thing I have read until now.

Russ St. Hilaire wrote:

"Real self defense means avoidance of an altercation - if you see a knife - create as much distance as possible. If you have to fight in order to protect someone else or for some reason there was no way out (locked in a boxcar with a knife wielding maniac) - then I bet your Jujutsu techniques will work - at least 50% of the time. The other 50% they wont - and you will die.

Spend your time thinking about how to NOT be around bad people with knives."

I have to say I agree totally. Sound advice for real self defense.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

Finny
13th January 2006, 03:59
As to defence against knives, as a person who trains in both jujutsu and arnis I would say that it is possible to defend against FMA style attacks, but few have the skill to do it.


I strongly recommend that everyone does some FMA training, provided you can find a good teacher, to see how they use the weapons. It is unlike anything else I had ever seen.

Hi Neil,

As a fellow sandgroper, I was just wondering what style of Arnis you train, where it is based, etc.?

Neil Hawkins
13th January 2006, 09:54
Brendan,

The style I do is called Cenojas Integrated Arnis, it originated in Davao City in the Philippines, but my instructor is on the Gold Coast.

I only practice with a couple of friends over here, never bothered teaching it formally. If you want to catch up and talk about it PM me and I'll give you my contact details.

Regards

Neil

johan smits
13th January 2006, 13:50
Oops,

I quess I used an ugly word since my message changed when I posted it.
Sorry for that - originally the word started with a b and ended with a t.

Jeez they're strict here.

best,
(b - t) ???

Johan Smits

niten ninja
13th January 2006, 16:46
You could try digging up your garden...

johan smits
13th January 2006, 18:25
Neh, it's all stone with a small border.

Maybe I'll try digging up some old threads. As on the HOW and the WHO and especially the WHY.

I have been thinking, a lot of people seem to think it's pretty normal - working with knives, carrying knives, talking about cutting people.
In a way that is weird. And in a way I don't think it matters what you train in. It is all about mental attitude.
I remember a man, a teacher of pak mei pai kung fu who grew up on New Guinea (former Dutch colony) who told me that he - as a child - witnessed a man defending himself against a group! of attackers brandishing machetes. This man only knew judo, but he was very good at it. He got away more or less unharmed.
That was - by the way - the pak mei pai teacher's advice to me ( me being a young buck at the time) "Don't waste your time training all kinds of things, but get very, very good at one style."
It took me a long time to realize but now I think he was right. Get very good at what you do and if trouble comes, bite of it's head.
(saw an old Steven Seagall movie last night...)

Best Regards,

Johan Smits