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jimmy o'curry
14th October 2001, 02:01
can anyone describe a sacrifice tech. known as tsuri-otoshi?

was there also a sac. technique known as tsuri-komi?

jeff slade

Brian Griffin
14th October 2001, 08:32
Originally posted by jimmy o'curry
can anyone describe a sacrifice tech. known as tsuri-otoshi?

was there also a sac. technique known as tsuri-komi?

jeff slade

Not in Kodokan Judo AFAIK.
Nearest match I can think of is sumi otoshi, but that's no sutemiwaza.

Danzan ryu jujutsu has a sutemiwaza called tsurigane otoshi -- it somewhat resembles yokowakare.

There's also a DZR cognate of KDK sumi otoshi, called tsurikomi daoshi.

MarkF
14th October 2001, 11:08
I agree with Brian, no sac. throws by that name. There are two koshiwaza; tsurikomi-goshi and tsurigoshi.

Mark

jimmy o'curry
14th October 2001, 16:38
yokoyama listed it as a ma-sutemiwaza, but i haven't found a description.

jeff slade

there is a sumo throw by this name, but i don't think their version is a sac.

MarkF
15th October 2001, 09:04
Jeff,
I've got a copy on a disc, so let me look through it (The book by Yokoyama "Judo Kyohan.")

Mark

MarkF
15th October 2001, 10:06
Jeff,
You are absolutely correct, but I couldn't find a listing for it in the index, but on page 105 in Judo Kyohan it is listed along with the rest of the ma-sutemi (front sacrifice) waza. Tsuriotoshi.

After this book was released there was a major revision of the gokyo no waza, so I'm guessing it was relaced with something else.

Anyone else know anything of this throw? Imaginations are welcome.

The suggestions that it may be from another style, considering the time, are probably correct, as it obviously was dropped from the KDK.

Mark

BTW: Tsurikomi is a throwing style, lifting and pulling, as in Harai- Tsurikomi ashi.

jimmy o'curry
18th October 2001, 04:11
come on, forumites; help me out!

jeff slade

MarkF
21st October 2001, 12:11
Jimmy,
I left you a hint as to where you could find the throw, as I had this in my files, though a description of it would probably go back to the lage 1870s or early 1880s. This is from a chapter of a book on Pacific Northwest Judo, due to come out late this year, perhaps early 2002, I'm not sure, but it will be included, perhaps with more of a description, though I doubt it.



So much for the supposed terrors and strictness of Grandpa’s day.
Kano and other judo teachers attended a conference in Kyoto in July 1906 that began the national standardization of judo.

Changes adopted as the result of this meeting included judogi sleeves and trousers being lengthened from mid-arm and knee-length to wrist and ankle length. The idea was to prevent mat burns. Also nage-no-kata (“Forms of Throwing”) had two throws altered. Specifically, sukuinage was changed to kataguruma and tsuriotoshi was changed to sumigaeshi.
_____________

I'm sorry I don't have anything else on it, but you may be fairly certain that they were similar, though I don't know about it being a ma-sutemi waza.

So this is why there isn't much on the throw. It was an early one, which Kano decided to toss out, though considering the year of the original Japanese book Judo Kyohan, I think that is why it appeared there. Time gets us all in the end.

Mark

BTW: I think, if this information is correct, and I am sure, that sumi gaeshi is probably similar to tsuri-otoshi.

Brian Griffin
21st October 2001, 14:23
Originally posted by MarkF
I'm sorry I don't have anything else on it, but you may be fairly certain that they were similar, though I don't know about it being a ma-sutemi waza.
If it took the place of sumigaeshi in nage no kata, then the one thing we can be certain of is that it must be a masutemiwaza.


BTW: I think, if this information is correct, and I am sure, that sumi gaeshi is probably similar to tsuri-otoshi.
I would expect them to be at least as similar as, let's say, kataguruma is to sukuinage. ;)
FWIW, Ito Kazuo also mentions tsuriotoshi in "This is Judo for Women."
On one page he lists it among the masutemiwaza, in a classification chart of throws that looks just like the one in Yokoyama's book. Later on, in an index , the following entry appears:


"Tsuri...hang Otoshi...drop or fell
One of the throws belonging to the hand technique."
...so maybe it's a tewaza after all!

jimmy o'curry
22nd October 2001, 04:03
okay; thanks, guys. i e-mailed the kano society; maybe somebody over there can further describe the tech.

jeff slade

MarkF
22nd October 2001, 08:31
Hi, Brian,
I was being literal, as in "I don't know" one way or the other, but thought as you did that it would be similar. I was trying to picture a lifting throw that was a sutemiwaza and not a makikomi waza.

The book will be out soon with photos so it may reveal more.

Mark

MarkF
22nd October 2001, 08:37
BTW, Jeff. If you are asking in general at the Society, ask Dr. Diana Birch. She is also a student of John Cornish, I believe. From there, you can reach those at the Budokwai. I don't know why I didn't mention it before, or I spaced and thought I was writing about the Society.:(

Mark

PS: You can also ask in the forum (that is probably where you did ask, and while it isn't all that active, with patience I've received some fine nuggets from it).

You may find an oldtimer at the IJF forum, too.

Brian Griffin
22nd October 2001, 10:57
Originally posted by MarkF
I was trying to picture a lifting throw that was a sutemiwaza and not a makikomi waza.It may not involve a "lift" per se. Tsuri can also mean "hang/suspend."

dakotajudo
23rd October 2001, 01:42
Originally posted by Brian Griffin

"Tsuri...hang Otoshi...drop or fell
One of the throws belonging to the hand technique."


That just trigger a memory. I vaguely remember reading of a technique where you grab both lapels and drop like yoko-wakare. If the throw doesn't work you've got a hanging choke.

Ben_Holmes
23rd October 2001, 05:08
Originally posted by dakotajudo


That just trigger a memory. I vaguely remember reading of a technique where you grab both lapels and drop like yoko-wakare. If the throw doesn't work you've got a hanging choke.

Strangely enough, the name of this technique, Kensui Jime, translates into English as .... drum roll please... *Hanging Choke*

Take both lapels, high by the neck, do a Yoko Wakare like move, and take the *outside* leg, swing up and over uke's head for control. I also learned another method, which starts the same way, but instead of a sideways Yoko Wakare, you go all the way to uke having you in Kamishihogatame... (more spin...) but your hands are now nicely crossed for what I guess you could call "Ushiro Nami Juji Jime" (?!) Unfortunately, if Uke caught on to what you were doing before the choke became effective, he could just spin a little, and have you in Yokoshihogatame. That can't happen in the first version... (another reason for the leg controlling the head - to prevent uke's move into Yokoshiho...)

Brian Griffin
23rd October 2001, 06:26
kensuijime is one of our good ol' Kawaishi strangles--number ten in a series of 18, IIRC. It starts as a version of ryotejime with both hands taking a nami grip (i.e. thumbs inside).
The second one mentioned by Mr. Holmes, I learned as hinerijime. Left hand thumb inside on right lapel--right hand palm up, fingers inside left lapel. Turn as if to do right moroteseoinage & let uke think he has an opening for a pin. OOOPS! Guess not!

jimmy o'curry
25th October 2001, 03:48
read a post over at judoinfo.com, suggesting that tsuri-otoshi may be another name for ura-nage . . .

still looking,

jeff slade:smilejapa

Brian Griffin
26th October 2001, 18:05
The illustrations I found of the technique known as tsuri otoshi in Sumo seemed somehow familiar, so I did a little research.

Mifune included a technique in Canon of judo that begins exactly like the Sumo version (i.e. both hands gripping the obi & lifting) BUT rather than just drop uke (or carry him out of the dohyo!) Mifune continues with a...

(drum roll please)

...ma-sutemiwaza!!!!

That's right--he bridges back & throws uke off to the side in what most of us would call a variant of uranage.

The name Mifune gives for this throw is daki sutemi.

jimmy o'curry
27th October 2001, 03:24
very interesting! thanks.

jeff slade:smilejapa

MarkF
27th October 2001, 08:43
Thanks, Brian.
At least we know such a throw was still being practiced. That was the only hole I couldn't fill, a description of the throw.

Mark

Graham Wild
27th October 2001, 15:51
If any one is intested
http://www.wnn.or.jp/wnn-t/nyumon/basic/kimarite/waza_e/turiotoshi_e.html

jimmy o'curry
12th November 2001, 04:00
Folks:

Just a progress note on my quest for a definite answer (as opposed to strong hypothesis) :

Neither Dr. Diana Birch not Syd Hoare have description for this throw. The Kodokan's first response was also description-free; I have sent a second, more detailed inquiry.


Jeff Slade:smilejapa

jimmy o'curry
7th December 2001, 07:17
don't lose this thread; i'm still working on it!

jeff slade

jimmy o'curry
10th December 2001, 04:16
just sent another inquiry to the kodokan . . .

anyplace else i should ask?

jeff slade

MarkF
10th December 2001, 10:03
Sometimes patience pays off with the Kodokan...or not. If you really want to know, try calling them by phone, or write in pen and ink (Murata-Sensei).

Dr. Karl Koiwai at USA Judo, Inc. is another who just may know.

It seems to be like finding the whole of the Go no kata. Lots of folks claim to know pieces of it, but getting the whole of it is another story.

Mark

jimmy o'curry
13th December 2001, 05:11
Great; thanks for all your replies.

Somebody tried to send me some info re: tsuri-otoshi on the ejmas list, but it looked infected, so I didn't get to read it.

Jeff Slade

MarkF
13th December 2001, 10:57
Jeff,
If you have the name and email address, perhaps I can find out what it was. Email me if you wish. My email is current on E-budo.

Mark

jimmy o'curry
28th December 2001, 03:39
dang! i never was able to retrieve that ejmas post. i guess i'll try asking again on that list.

jeff slade

jimmy o'curry
12th January 2002, 06:19
Mr. Griffin:

Since you mentioned Danzan-Ryu throws earlier; doesn't the Mifune daki-sutemi somewhat resemble DZR's Tsukkomi Dome?

Jeff Slade

Brian Griffin
13th January 2002, 17:46
Originally posted by jimmy o'curry
doesn't the Mifune daki-sutemi somewhat resemble DZR's Tsukkomi Dome?Sure--but tsukkomidome (especially certain variants) is really closer to the nage no kata version of uranage.

jimmy o'curry
14th January 2002, 04:06
yes; i see what you mean. thank you for replying so quickly.

jeff slade:smilejapa

jimmy o'curry
21st April 2002, 06:05
Well folks;

Somebody posted answers at the Kano Society's discussion board. He describes both tsuri-otoshi & daki-sutemi.

Thanks to all who have helped/replied.

Jeff Slade:smilejapa

MarkF
21st April 2002, 19:14
The one ink drawing I found of this throw is one in which tori drops to one knee, dropping and turning uke in a similar way of Mifune's taiotoshi. For the left side, one tori drops the inside knee, after off-balancing uke to tori's right rear. Tori is then brought down in a continuous motion, turning as in Mifune's kukinage throws, but uke is still drwn downward with the right hand to uke's right sleeve, lifting up with tori's left to the right side of uke, gripping either the arm up high or a part of uke near it, pulling down the Tori's right and lifting slightly with the left in a continous circle always dropping or drawing uke down. A circular dropping throw occurs.

That is what I saw in the drawing but it was very well detailed. It wasn't from a judo source, though.

Wasn't this throw dropped in favor of kata guruma? They both have a cricular motion (or wheel).

I'm not arguing with those who responded at the KS, but I didn't really see this description. BTW: This is more in like with the sumo version, but the drawing wasn't from a sumo source. I found it on an obscure web site one I can't find now.

For anyone who wishes, click here (http://www.kanosociety.org/disckano_tocf.htm) for the discussion at the society.

And thanks to Jeff for his perseverance. Someone with that much interest with no "stop" in the genes built in, I'd say this may go on for a while.

Mark

MarkF
21st April 2002, 19:18
Actually, it may have been that tori drops to the outside leg (right).

Mark

jimmy o'curry
20th August 2002, 04:56
Mark,

Did you ever spot that website again? I used "Google," but never found it.

Jeff Slade

MarkF
20th August 2002, 08:36
Sorry, Jeff,
The more I thought about it, the more I thought it was a sumo technique, but there is no reason it couldn't be done, and the variations could really find a home in the judo dojo.

You know, if you can find the right connection, you may want to ask Manny Yarbrough. Along with amateur sumo, he is also a judoka.


Mark