Ukemi, active or passive?

[Chad Bruttomesso]

A few nights ago one of my Sensei made a comment that has inspired me to profound confusion. He was discussing ukemi. He made a comment along the lines of,”Ukemi is something that you do to yourself not something that is done to you”. Many of the people I have trained with over the years (along with myself) have always perceived ukemi as something that was done to them in their role as uke. My sensei suggested that ukemi is something that the uke can take an active part in by deciding how much they will do, push them selves to do a little more than they think they can and overcome a fear of falling. Also, this challenges the idea that the uke is a victim or person that the technique is performed on. It suggests that they are just as involved in performing the technique as nage.

I would like to hear what everyone has to say on this subject. As I am writing this I realize that this is something I have thought about for some time unconsciously but have just recently brought to the conscious mind.

Thank you for your time.

[Mark Brecht]

I train in Koryu arts (Bujinkan), where ukemi is used in defensive and offensive applications. The psychological aspect of using ukemi offensivly is very interesting. As an opponent often does not expect this kind of attack, and is totally surprised by it.

[AikiTom]

With all due respect to your Sensei, and without knowing his context for the comment, I would humbly disagree with the statement.
Uke has first of all an obligation to give "honest" ukemi, not take "dives." This honesty allows nage to assess how well he or she is performing their technique.
One translation of uke is "receiver" which is different from initiator or co-nage, which I infer from the sensei's comment.
The other problem I have with it is whether a belief like that encourages "showboat" ukemi with extravagant airfalls, etc., where instead of focusing on the technique, the focus is on the gymnastic performance at the end of the technique. The desire to "perform" by uke can actually disguise an ineffective execution by nage, because uke carries the move, so to speak, so he can fly.
Having said all that, a few thoughts on when uke should "lead" a bit.
* When he's helping a less skilled student learn the technique by leading nage's body through the move.
* For safety, to avoid an injury because the technique is being done wrong, too fast, etc.
* When escapes/reversals are being learned and it's accepted between the partners.
One of the first explanations I read of "aiki" was in "The Dynamic Sphere," where they say to attach to the force of the attack and then extend that force, and direct it whence you want it to go. I'd be interested in comments of others reading this - this definition seems at odds with the sensei's remark.

[szczepan]

Originally posted by AikiTom [/B]

* For safety, to avoid an injury because the technique is being done wrong, too fast, etc.[/B]

I like to think you made a typo:D

When the technique is being done wrong,too fast, etc it isn't workning at all!! So uke no need to fly or something.Instead, when technique is correct, uke must protect himself against injury.

regardz

[DJM]

Hi Tom,
Welcome over this side of the fence from Aikiweb.. I've found your posts there to be insightful and interesting, and I can only hope that you'll share your opinions as freely here.. :)
That said we have a policy here on e-budo where all posters display their full names - the signature is often a good place for this.. Thanks :D
--
Down to business!
I think you and Chad aren't actually disagreeing ;).. I think there's an important difference between taking the role of uke, and taking ukemi...
Being uke requires your control to be subsumed by tori (something I still have trouble with..), whereas ukemi is taking control back over yourself, often after tori is 'finished with you'...
That said uke can still receive the technique, yet 'do' ukemi - taking an active role, not in the technique itself, but the outcome of that technique..

I hope that makes sense?!

Peace,
David

[DJM]

Originally posted by szczepan

Originally posted by AikiTom

* For safety, to avoid an injury because the technique is being done wrong, too fast, etc.[/B]

I like to think you made a typo:D

When the technique is being done wrong,too fast, etc it isn't workning at all!! So uke no need to fly or something.Instead, when technique is correct, uke must protect himself against injury.

regardz [/B]

Actually I think he might have meant when the technique is being done wrong 'for the dojo', like shiho nage with the arm out too wide etc...
Also when the technique is being done unsafely too - clothesliner-meets-irimi nage ;)

Peace,
David

[AikiTom]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually I think he might have meant when the technique is being done wrong 'for the dojo', like shiho nage with the arm out too wide etc...
Also when the technique is being done unsafely too - clothesliner-meets-irimi nage ;)

Peace,
David [/B][/QUOTE]

Exactly. Thanks, David. My answer was lacking in precision - of course I knew what I meant :) but couldn't communicate it correctly.

When I said self-initiated ukemi may be needed when a technique is being done "wrong" I meant in an "unsafe" way, which is usually also a technically incorrect way, at least in the dojo.

I was actually thinking of the example cited, the shihonage where nage stretches your arm out sort of horizontally putting pressure on your elbow, instead of curling uke's arm back over uke's shoulder. The "clothesline" mentioned is also an excellent example, and parallels many situations where a nage thinks "fast" is better than first finding uke's off-balance point and then executing the technique.

Sorry I didn't explain better! :)

[will szlemko]

Hi all,

I have to partially agree with all of your coments. There is a time to not "give" a technique, there is also a time to completely avoid a technique. In our dojo (we train jujutsu, but there are many similarities) a more experienced uke will often let a beginner take a technique clear to the point of considerable pain so that they can learn how to do a technique as well as how far a technique has to go to truly creat pain or destruction. On the other hand once a person has learned a technique we take an active and aggressive approach to ukemi. Say someone is applying kote gaeshi an experienced uke can easily tell if they have the technique right. If the technique is correct then the uke should move to rapid ukemi to get ahead of the technique. This is often the first step in an effective counter or at the very least a way of neutralizing the attacking technique.

will

[Excalibor]

Hi all,

I think there's a point we are all forgetting (or not mentioning) and is that when waza is performed correctly, there's not possibility for ukemi.

I'll explain myself. All techniques in Aikidoo parent martial arts were designed to be effective since (or even before!) the moment of contact until the moment tori released uke. That meant that control techniques were actually breaking arms and other parts of the body and that throwing techniques were meant to break uke's head or spine. You could not afford anything less, as your life was in mortal danger by those times.

If a technique is done with that spirit and intention from the start, there's little uke can done except trying a counter (kaeshi-waza), because tori won't give him the luxury of taking ukemi (which means "protecting the body") because their body is the target.

Now, Aikidoo has other goals. Bushi no nasake, the compassion of the warrior, means to be able to kill and to choose not to. That's what we do in Aikidoo. We allow uke to take ukemi out of our waza. Thus, it is his responsibility not to hurt himself out of the waza.

I am not promoting uke that jump before waza is performed, but those who won't be a dead weight either, but who move trying to counter tori until they are forced to take ukemi... That means uke keeps attacking until he cannot do so any longer (because he is restrained in the mat).

Also, being a proactive uke, makes tori to feel the attack and perform waza that 'works' (whatever that means, I'm fed up on 'effective Aikidoo' discussions) and, reversely, makes uke to try and 'save' his life. This does not means uke should drop himself before the technique is (correctly) applied, that's a bad uke, and must train harder to become a good one... it's important to be good uke...

my 2 eurocents

[Mike Collins]

Anyone who has trained with anyone who has spent any serious time in Shingu will tell you that ukemi is a very active and in fact proactive element in Aikido. My teacher can take falls (or not) in such a way that I never have any sense of control over the interaction.

I have seen Clint George (the best ukemi I've ever seen) taking ukemi and translating while upside down and flying and then stand up prepared to take the next technique, then trained with him and have him wear me out by taking ukemi for me.

Ukemi is probably the single most important element in Aikido (or probably any art), and it is almost specialized in in Shingu. This is not a slam on anyone else, only a strong endorsement for the ukemi skills I have seen and felt from those teachers coming out of Shingu. If my teacher(s) and seniors were not so good at ukemi, I'd probably have left Aikido by now in the belief that this art is only for young people. I have seen a 70 year old man take falls for around 100 people and not seem to be tired. This is what I want to work at.

I have been told to do technique to an 8th dan from Tokyo, who, with his little body kept me from moving, much less doing a technique. So I guess my point is "Oh hell yes" ukemi is active when the ukemist understands his role (roll).

That's my opinion. Take it for what it is worth.

[RDeppe]

There are lots of ways to train. Training always one way is not very good training in my book. There are martial things that can be learned by being ahead and taking dives. There are martial things to be learned by shuting partners down. There are martial things to be learned by doing something in the middle. Etc.

It's training, not fighting.

I have a friend who likes to visit dojos and hide his skill. He gets a kick out of seeing whether anyone figures out he is taking dives. His says 95% have no clue.

[Gil Gillespie]

Good thread!

In my dojo ukemi is the first thing a newcomer learns, before tenkan, before any techniques! My sensei forever tells us: "You're not fodder for nage. Never give up your martial composure. TAKE ukemi----don't wait for nage to DUMP you into a bad fall." He is thus not encouraging us to "take a dive." Gratuitous flamboyant breakfalls are not what he's talking about.

Uke and nage both have roles. Musubi is at root for both. Nage blends with uke's attack but uke must then blend with nage's technique. I have failed miserably at both at times: I've blocked with my chin and had my nose ground into the mat. Ah, the process. . .

Once, just once, as uke I joined with nage's throw and my roll whispered across the mat almost without touching as I landed perfectly on my feet. Zo! I know it can happen. I've trained in an effort to recapture that moment all these years! There is that elusive moment in nage's technique when you take ukemi. Finding it is part of training. Too soon and you're bailing, diving, anticipating technique. Too late and you're "dumped" or worse, physically compromised.

That correct instant (is it a nanosecond?) is worthy of great study as uke. Being uke should never be boring. Many aikidoka mistakenly treat it as being "on deck" until they get to "do it" again. Big mistake. They thus only train half the time they're out there. And they pass on the training that can save their life!

[DJM]

Originally posted by RDeppe
I have a friend who likes to visit dojos and hide his skill. He gets a kick out of seeing whether anyone figures out he is taking dives. His says 95% have no clue.

Well, I'll step in to bat on this..
Aikido, for me, is always about two (or more) people working together, to improve their Aikido - it's one of the reason's there is so much trust between Aikidoka who are practicing together. If your friend isn't doing this, he shouldn't be getting on the mat..

Just my opinion..
Peace,
David

[George Ledyard]

What a variety of responses! First of all I will definitely weigh in on the side of the Sensei who said that ukemi is active but we may have meant different things by it. I am definitely sure that the gentleman who referred to the ukemi as taught at Shingu is exactly what I meant.

People confuse ukemi as it is done in basic practice with ukemi as it exists in a fighting martial context. Ukemi is like surfing. You need to "catch" the wave so you move with it. Once you catch it, you have a wide freedom of movement as long as you don't do anything that resists the basic movement of the wave. Ukemi is like that even in basics. You feel where the energy is going and you power with it rather than resist it. Where many people go wrong is believing that this is the whole picture. The whole purpose of ukemi is to maintain connection with the opponent's center. Not because it is spiritual to do so or because non-conflict is a value in our practice (which may be true) but because good connection is the only way you can perform Kaeshiwaza (reversals).

In combat you are not going to trot around in a circle and launch yourself in to the air after allowing your opponent to get a lock on you. Assuming that you haven't been disabled by his atemi you need to move with his technique in order to catch the opening for the reversal. I call the spots at which you can execute a reversal "cross-over points". You can stop a technique anywhere but that would result in a big opening that would usually get you stuck by an atemi. So you must move with the technique until the opponent makes enough of an error that he gives you the opening for the reversal. A technique like yokomen uchi shiho nage when done in the standard Aikido fashion has five crossover points. If your ukemi is resistant than your movement is always a bit behind the person who is attempting a technique on you. The crossover point will come and go before you are ready to execute the reversal.

People keep talking about taking falls as if they are being thrown. In practice that is true. But in fighting that is not true. Everything is atemi in combat. Even a "throw" like a koshinage is really just a way to deliver impact using the ground. Of course you throw yourself rather than give yourself to the opponent. You see what is coming and usually add your own energy to the fall so that rather than land on your head, which would be the desired outcome of a combat koshinage, you would land on some less vulnerable part of your body. But you have already made a mistake to even be taking a fall. As one person posting pointed out these techniques are really designed to break something, it is only the nice version that we use for our practice that creates the illusion that there is safe ukemi. All the techniques that we do that throw outwards in modern Aikido, originally projected "downwards". In modern Aikido we create a space into which we project our energy and into which the partner falls. In combat you fill that space with something. For instance katatetori kokyu nage in the omote version. The nice version that we do in the dojo involves a wavelike movement that unbalances the partner and projects him backwards into his balance point where he takes his fall. If you are a Federation style practitioner that can be done at an angle that produces the need to do a break fall. If you train as we do in the ASU the movement usually goes across the back forcing a simple back fall. But the real combat version does not project out (why do I want my opponent to fall away from me and escape or renew his attack?) instaed it projects down into a space in which you have placed your knee. The back goes across the knee where it can be broken. You don't "take ukemi" in the way that many people seem to mean it because to allow yourself to be thrown is to be killed or maimed. The only real protection is to develop good ukemi in the sense of matching the movement of your opponent when necessary so as to get an opening for a reversal.

The whole issue of throwing or not throwing yourself when being uke has two sides. First is for the benefit of your training partner. He can't possibly know whether he really understands a technique if his partners are so cooperative that they tip over no matter what the execution of the technique. At the basic level it isn't appropriate to reverse a technique because your partner may not know enough to execute the technique without your cooperation. So you assist him to learn by moving with him. As his level of skill increases you might make yourself a bit more difficult to throw so he can develop powerful technique. But beyond that you don't get resistant because that would be ingraining habits in your own practice that would be counter to what you are trying to learn. So that brings us to the second side and that is your own benefit. Standard ukemi in your kihon waza develops good balance and sensitivity, teaches continuous connection with the partner's center, and is tremendous conditioning. So we place a heavy emphasis on taking the falls as part of your training. But as I mentioned above, from the martial standpoint, this is really to develop a foundation from which you can use kaeshiwaza to reverse a technique so that you don’t take the fall.

The other aspect of this is when technique is done as Saotome Sensei is apt to do where the technique is not a physical throw but is really an atemi that he is giving you the opportunity to avoid by throwing yourself. Those who think that you never throw yourself in aikido haven’t trained with teachers who do this type of technique. I once had the opportunity to conduct a class for a group of people who were from a different organization than mine. Emphasis in ukemi under their teacher was on hanging in there to the end and receiving the technique. If you took your fall too soon you would be corrected and asked to try again. Well I did a class that was on the relation between weapons and empty hand technique. Normally you don’t throw with weapons, you strike. Empty hand technique that derives from this is about exhibiting all the energy, timing, and focus of a strike but changing the timing to allow the partner to take the fall. Hence the so-called “touchless throws” of Aikido. Well I discovered that there was an inverse relationship between the number of times I had to hit the guys over the head before they’d fall and the rank of the uke. The beginners looked at the guy next to them and fell right down when I entered and struck at their heads. But by the time I got to the guys with rank of 4th dan I was nailing these guys four or five times before they decided that it wasn’t any fun and they’d better fall. This was a misunderstanding of the type of ukemi called for. They had been trained not to fall until they were thrown. But I was doing strikes that I was choosing to execute in a way that delivered impact but didn’t injure anyone. I wasn’t doing a throw. Those would have been breaks or knock out blows in fighting. When Saotome Sensei does that type of technique I go airborne as fast as I possibly can and as my feet leave the ground his hand will be compressing my nose. There is no margin for error or hesitation. So this type of ukemi is for your own benefit as it gets you out of the way without getting something flattened. If you don’t take the fall, the technique simply becomes what it really is, a strike and down you go.

So in all of this discussion of ukemi I hope that it is apparent that ukemi is very active, really proactive. There is nothing passive about ukemi. It is really a way to allow you to control the interaction with an opponent if he has attempted to seize the initiative by trying to execute a technique on you. Ukemi as done in many dojos is far to passive ceding all control over the interaction to the nage. This may be all right from the standpoint of practice as “moving meditation” but it isn’t proper preparation for martial application.

[astudent]

my understanding of the role of the uke is one where they are neither passive and stand there like stones and be dead weight but they are also not to "lead" nage into what is done next, unless they are helping a novice student.

where i train, uke does not move unless nage moves them. this is particularly noticable during kihon exercises. however i am not just dead weight and fall at the slightest off balance. but i will also not step or move in a direction that nage is placing me into.

as was mentioned earlier, most if not all these techniques were designed to "subdue" an attacker in a very serious manner. many of the techniques end with a strike down. they would either break the spine, neck or skull of the attacker.

often times when i train with students of other dojos they seem to be more into the "flowing" aspects of the art. when i watch two from the same dojo it is very pretty, but when i train with them it gets ugly. they are trying to "flow" and move somewhere i don't want them to go or they get upset with me because i'm not "flowing" where they think i should be going.

i think there is a balance where uke can be too proactive and too passive. in either case it does no one any good.

[Yojimbo558]

Hi Chad,

I agree, ukemi is something that uke does...and I can also see where this would cause some confusion.

In order to protect ourselves, we all learn how to fall, execute techniques and how to counter them. It's not a matter so much as taking a dive, but understanding your surroundings and the timing of the situation.

For example, let's say that you're really good at high falls. When someone puts on a technique, this is not something you want to do reflexively without thinking. While you could do a high fall easily on the mat, grass, sand, gravel ( it's not that bad since you slide ), or dirt. But clipping a wall, landing on asphalt, concrete, or the blocks of cement in parking lots to stop the cars from rolling forward would only be perhaps the best Christmas present you could give to your attacker.

Here's another example: During a Shodan test, I attacked the applicant. He countered beautifully and tried to launch me with a shiho nage....Because he was nervous he only focused on me ( tunnel vision )...while I on the other hand was still tracking everything else....Unlike the brown belt I saw a young child slip away from their parents and come onto the mat. If I had let him throw me I would have landed on the child ( because of my size in comparrision to the child combined with the torque of a high fall, this could have been any thing from fatal to crippling )...I did not let ukemi be done to me, instead I reversed him, and guided him away from the child. When it was safe I did ukemi.

As Mark mentioned, in Bujinkan we use ukemi for offensive purposes as well. This also ties in with what your instructor said about choosing to take ukemi.

It's not about cheating or never feeling the technique, it's about moving before the technique has a chance to cause injury...ukemi is about how and when to fall safely.

Hope this helps,

Eric Bookin

[Jim Hadden]

I found this link and its chapter on active ukemi most helpful.
http://www.designeq.com/aikido/insideout/ukemi.html

Jim Hadden

[TomW]

Hi all-

I want to reply to this one.

I very much feel that ukemi is active and in fact I feel it should almost be approached as an art itself.

I'm speaking from the same ukemi experience as Mike Collins and George Ledyard Sensei spoke of, as my teacher's teacher is Tom Read Sensei who trained in Singu.

As my teacher put it: "Don't take Ukemi, Study Ukemi." study your openings, study nage's openings, study receptivity, study how to have intent, study how to be heavy, study how to be light, study how to FEEL, study Aikido through Ukemi! I have learned as much if not more about aikido through ukemi as I have as nage. In my humble opinion, if you're taking your ukemi any less seriously than the rest of your aikido, you are doing yourself a disservice.

Tom Wharton