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hector gomez
17th October 2001, 16:53
The other day, I was reading were jigoro kano, actually
incorporated kata-guruma(shoulder throw)from a wrestler,that
was visiting the kodokan,also, it is documented, that he sent one of
his top sudents to train in aikido ,with the founder of that art,later
on he added techniques from aikido, into some of the katas for
self-defense purposes.

I also believe he did this with gichin funakoshi(shotokan),for someone that united most of the jujitsu-ryu techniques to form
what we know today as judo,he is usually percieved to be traditional, it seems to me, that he was unto crosstraining way before
the new generation did.

Hoping some of you ,that do know judo history, can shed some light on this issue
of crosstraining & kano?

Hector Gomez

Scanderson
18th October 2001, 00:12
According to my readings from many articles and my personal and growing Judo library, Cross-Training almost seems to fall under Kano's vision of Judo. Kano was a diplomat. If I recall correctly, Karate was taught early on at the Kodokan. Also, I recall reading he had high praise for Aikido, but you can't believe everything you read. To me, I interpreted Kano's Judo as an evolutionary martial art - one that would grow and adapt over time, rather than stay the same. Also one that would be unique to each individual that attained proficiency in it. Kind of like music and musicians...

Stephen C. Anderson

Goju Man
18th October 2001, 03:22
Steven, that was an excellent post. I don't know a lot about Kano's history, but he seemed to be cutting edge at the time. When I was a kid, Judo was taught as a physical education class in the school I attended. I remember that we had self defense, a certain amount of kicking and punching in the self defense applications as well as the good ole randori. Has Judo gotten so competition oriented that we forget it is a martial art? I have used Judo throws and takedowns outside of the dojo and can say that it definitley works. Thanks again for the info. Steve.

Manny Salazar
it's all that;)

MarkF
18th October 2001, 10:51
The Old Kodokan was also given or sold to Funakoshi and Shotokan. I'd have to check the date, but that is what they did with it once the newer one, of the time was built.

Tomiki Kenji-sensei was invited to leave the kodokan for a while to study with Uyeshiba M. Sensei, and was a 7-dan in judo. He indeed worked with others in the development of the Kodokan goshin jutsu waza, now an official kata taught at the Kodokan, so you've got your history down, I'd say, Hector.

The jo was taught there after Kano saw a demonstration of it in Kyoto.

But Stephen is right, Kano was a diplomat and an academic, something not seen in the world of bugei at the time. Kata-guruma is much like the term "fireman's carry" seen in wrestling, as Kano was influenced by it when exposed to wrestling.

The old texts written about judo, are prized, not so much for what they offer in doing judo, but what inspired judo as seen today. It is indeed a growing practice, and some of the old-timers do say judo "was never the same." Well, they are probably right. They did judo in both periods, and it is no shame that it isn't, only that it had changed some.

Mark

Goju Man
18th October 2001, 13:38
Mark, that is some excellent reading. I am not that up on Judos' history but it seems as if Kano was ahead of his time. What has happened to the martial arts since then? Of all the arts I have practised, the Judokas are the only ones who are willing to make changes if it is for the better. The Karateka for the most part is trying to go bakwards. Go figure. Thank you for shedding some light on the subject.

Regards,
Manny Salazar
it's all that;)

hector gomez
18th October 2001, 16:50
Thanks,guys for the replies.

I have ,also heard ,that kano realized the importance of ne-waza in combat ,when some of the kodokan top fighters were defeated in
matches against fusei- ryu jujitsu(i hope i am pronouncing that right).,this later became the movement of kosen judo?was this
open minded mentality brought on by kano's incorporation of randori?
Could randori have been the catalyst to encourage true crosstraining?

HectorGomez

MarkF
19th October 2001, 09:25
The Kodokan did get their collective butt kicked by fusen ryu, and was a true learning experience, and yes, it did encourage more newaza at the Kodokan.

Kosen judo is a great judo school (only available in Japan right now, but since there has been somewhat of a reemergence of classic judo, this may change).

While there is nothing wrong with BJJ and other submission grappling schools, judo teachers need to emphasize it as one of the important methods of doing judo.

Most submission in judo happens on the ground so it should never be neglected. Katame waza randori is as good or better workout if uke is on top half the time. Escape is a great teacher.

And by the tape I've been watching, it can even get better.

Mark

hector gomez
19th October 2001, 14:35
Thanks Mark

I've seen some of those kosen tapes, and i noticed how similar
the techniques are to bjj.
The oma plata (shoulder lock done with the legs)move from the guard
is very bjj,not really seen in most judo shools,i guess it was always there before WW2.

Also,if my understanding is correct the kosen rules ,was one ippon
win ,wether it was a solid throw ,or submission, and not to be stood up after
groundwork begins.

I actually like those rules better than bjj rules,because it keeps
everyone aware of a good solid throw,that on the street can
be just as effective as a submission.

Was there any crosstraining between kano and funakoshi? i know
they were good friends,i've noticed a lot of shotokan practicioners
have always combined kicks and punches with very effective sweeps and tai -sabaki ,don't know if this was a result of crosstraining, or simply the fact that most people in japan, had already some form of judo basics.

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
19th October 2001, 20:52
This a great topic guys, I am not a historian but didn't the Gracies
learn the art from a Japanese Instructor? I agree that it would be nice to see a combination of rules between Judo and BJJ. If you get thrown for ippon that should still count but I would like to see more ne waza. Just as stand up Judo has evolved over the years, I beleive that if they had to do more ne waza in tournaments, Judo would be able to hold themselves even with BJJ. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen the Kosen tapes but from what I understand, I'm sure they can hold their own with BJJ.


Manny Salazar:)

Ben Reinhardt
20th October 2001, 04:23
Hello all,

I've heard the statement that Kano Sensei got the idea for Kata Guruma from a western wrestler, but I've never seen it really authentically documented.

There are similar techniques in koryu jujutsu of Japan. Takeda Sokaku (of Daito Ryu JJ fame) is posed in one version in an old picture I have seen (on one of the Daito Ryu JJ sites around somewhere). I have also seen a Judo book (put out by the Kodokan) that has prints from the mokoroku of, as I recall, either Yoshin Ryu JJ or another root art of Judo, something that looks like Kata Guruma.

Kano Sensei was instrumental in getting Funakoshi Sensei started in Japan. Judo already had a full compelment of atemi waza when they met. Funakoshi's art was okinawa-te (I don't recall which version), but most of them included a lot of grappling, joint locks, etc. into their striking. So I doubt he got any of his moves from Judo or JJJ.

When it comes to Judo history, Caveat Emptor. Mine included !

Ben Reinhardt

MarkF
21st October 2001, 09:01
Yup! never trust anything you find on the Internet. I am probably wrong more than I am right due to spending nearly twenty years competing. It only became interesting in about the last 15 years when I realized I wasn't getting any younger. When on the "circuit" in LA and the rest of California, I read Judo Illustrated or Black belt (BB for a very short time) for the results of tournaments I may have missed.
******

Kata guruma replaced another throw in the revision of the gokyo no waza, but I can't remember which was replaced and I don't have the source in easy reach.
*******

However, it is known that Kano did indeed have an interest in western freestyle, but how that influenced him is anyone's guess, but whether it did or not, it certainly has influenced wrestling, and "works" wrestling since, or the other way around. Gene LeBell once told me, as he told the entire audience once that I recall, as was his habit when announcing pro-wrestling, he would name the judo term for the wrestling moves on TV, and that there is nothing in wrestling which cannot be found in judo. He may have said it the other way around, I.E., That there is nothing in judo which cannot be found in wrestling.

That stuff about Takamatsu-S. giving hiza guruma to Kano (or the Kodokan), has no basis in fact. That type of "wheel" or "whirl" throws were there almost from the beginning, but again one has to take the word of someone else. But Kano was indeed open to changes, so at this time, I wouldn't rule it out completely.

If one chooses to believe such, I don't have a problem with it. Was it the chicken or the egg?

Mark

PS: Kata guruma is done in many variations on the mat, and one can dump uke to either side or to the front. Ben, do you know why throwing uke to the rear is against shiai rules? I understand the jumping backward and down, with tori leaving his feet to land on top of uke but if done while releasing uke, as to the front or side, would it be any kind of score thus, proper? Is it always a penalty? My books aren't really up to date, and they do describe it only as penalty, but the description is lacking. I was discussing this with someone here in the week leading up to the nationals in Las Vegas about that, and how it may not be penalize if tori lets him fall with out leaving his (tori's) feet. I know, kindof muddled, but since you're the head rule-keeper unofficially on E-budo, your thoughts or explanation would be appreciated, I'm sure.

BTW: How were the nationals? Have any news for us? Were the "Jersey twins" there again (Pedro and Morris)?

Start a thread with some results if you like. I'm sure some do not know the details yet.;)

Mark

Brian Griffin
21st October 2001, 09:51
Originally posted by MarkF
Kata guruma replaced another throw in the revision of the gokyo no waza, but I can't remember which was replaced and I don't have the source in easy reach.
Kataguruma has been part of the gokyo no nagewaza since the beginning (1895).
It was originally the fourth technique in dai yonkyo, and in 1920 became the eighth technique of dai sankyo, where it remains.
You may be thinking of the early version of nage no kata which contained sukuinage in the tewaza section, later replaced by kataguruma.

hector gomez
22nd October 2001, 14:02
Before, the bjj explosion in this country,most judo schools
interpretation on ne-waza consisted of short duration"back
to back"turnaround,get your grip from the knees,untill someone
get's postion or control(pin),ofcourse ,i am catergorizing and that's
not fair.

In reality judo schools have not put to much ephasis in groundwork in the past,many judokas are starting to crosstrain
in bjj ,and that's a good thing.
The bjj practicioners have crosstrained with judokas for some time
to improve their game also.

I guess at one time, crosstraining in these two arts was not needed, because apparently ,they were both the same art/sport,but because of their focus and emphasis,they have taken different paths
over the years,we find ourself contemplating crosstraining with
two arts, that were once, both the same.

Hector Gomez

Scanderson
22nd October 2001, 23:15
I am not so sure that BJJ has deviated that much, based on what I have read - but it does appear that BJJ has refined Ne Waza to some extent - serious practitioners will be able to shed more light on this - my interests lie in judo.

As far as the theory of Judo being complete in the past, and now lacking due to the sport aspect is one of those tough philosphical questions that I hear the old judoka argue over and over about.
The first questions to ask is: has judo changed or deviated from the Kano ideal? I don't know the answer myself. But when it comes to crosstraining, I have found a lot of judoka that held ranks in other martial arts, so it would seem that cross training is part of judo culture, particularly in light of Kano's embracing of other styles early on. Still, a tough question probably best left to the scholars.

Stephen C. Anderson

MarkF
23rd October 2001, 11:29
Originally posted by hector Gomez
In reality judo schools have not put to much ephasis in groundwork in the past,many judokas are starting to crosstrain
in bjj ,and that's a good thing.
The bjj practicioners have crosstrained with judokas for some time
to improve their game also.


Hector,
The first line of your quote is simply not true, but you play politics well with your last comment.:)

Mark

hector gomez
23rd October 2001, 13:49
Mark you are right,i am positive ,that there is some quality
ne-waza being taught around the country, by several good judo schools,
but,we cannot deny the fact, that because of the focus ,in the
current state of ijf judo rules,most judo schools are putting to much
emphasis on defensive turtling techniques and stalling to be
stood back up,unfortunatley ,these are some stategies that are
being used, to give someone a better chance at winning under current judo rules.

The problem with this consumed effort to win"under those rules"
has caused a lot of judo schools to bypass concentrating so much
on groundwork,i know this is a generalization and that not all judo schools practice this way.

If there really wasn't an emphasis problem with judo's newaza,as it is taught today,then our new
100kg US open champion and olympic hopeful, would not have
the need to crosstrain in bjj.


Hector Gomez

Ben Reinhardt
25th October 2001, 02:42
Originally posted by hector gomez
Mark you are right,i am positive ,that there is some quality
ne-waza being taught around the country, by several good judo schools,
but,we cannot deny the fact, that because of the focus ,in the
current state of ijf judo rules,most judo schools are putting to much
emphasis on defensive turtling techniques and stalling to be
stood back up,unfortunatley ,these are some stategies that are
being used, to give someone a better chance at winning under current judo rules.

The problem with this consumed effort to win"under those rules"
has caused a lot of judo schools to bypass concentrating so much
on groundwork,i know this is a generalization and that not all judo schools practice this way.

If there really wasn't an emphasis problem with judo's newaza,as it is taught today,then our new
100kg US open champion and olympic hopeful, would not have
the need to crosstrain in bjj.


Hector Gomez

You must mean Rhadi Fergeson, right ?

I watched him at the US Open. Funny, he won all his matches with nage waza ! He is good on the mat, however, at that level (and higher) the judoka are very good at defense. Didn't Rhadi start out in BJJ ?


Regards,

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
25th October 2001, 02:55
Mark F. wrote: "PS: Kata guruma is done in many variations on the mat, and one can dump uke to either side or to the front. Ben, do you know why throwing uke to the rear is against shiai rules? "

This is a good question, Mark. Most referees (A level at that) that I know in the USA do not agree with this rule against the Kata Guruma finished to the rear. Basically, my understanding is, that the IJF is using the rule against jumping backwards onto an opponent while they are clinging to your back as the basis for it. Of course, that rule has nothing do do with the form of Kata Guruma that is now banned.

The IJF Referee Commission (or at the least the former head of such) got worried about all the head diving that was becoming prevalent. Nobody had gotten injured (yet) at the highest levels of Olympic Judo because of it, but it was considered only a matter of time before it happened. Thus, the newest restrictions on jumping/diving forwards to throw.

The "backwards dump" Kata Guruma does not seem to me or most other referees I know to be dangerous. Tori's head lands on Uke's chest or stomach, and is thus cushioned. Note that if Tori releases Ukes and throws him backwards, it's OK. ONly the backwards sommersault is illegal.


MarkF. also wrote " I understand the jumping backward and down, with tori leaving his feet to land on top of uke but if done while releasing uke, as to the front or side, would it be any kind of score thus, proper? Is it always a penalty"

If Uke lands in a scoring position, then it can score. As noted above, the "backward dump" Kata Guruma is legal and can score if tori releases Uke. The rule is against backwards diving or sommersaults. Throwing Uke directly forwards "forwards dump" is OK, as long as tori does not dive forwards or do a sommersault. Throwing to the side is fine, even with a sommersault or full rotation ot tori.

The main thing they told us to look for is that tori bends forward at the waist with no rotation of his upper body. This results in a head dive (very dangerous) or a forward sommersault (possibly as dangerous). If Tori gets any rotation or twist, or turns his head to the side, he will be OK. This is the rule regardless of the throw.


Mark F. "My books aren't really up to date, and they do describe it only as penalty, but the description is lacking. I was discussing this with someone here in the week leading up to the nationals in Las Vegas about that, and how it may not be penalize if tori lets him fall with out leaving his (tori's) feet. I know, kindof muddled, but since you're the head rule-keeper unofficially on E-budo, your thoughts or explanation would be appreciated, I'm sure. "

Mark, the US Open is not "nationals". It is an open, class B international tournament sanctioned and run by USJI/USA Judo.

Hope that helps,

Ben Reinhardt

hector gomez
25th October 2001, 14:00
YES BEN , rhadi fergerson has been doing very well in judo and the bjj circuit ,i believe he took a silver at the mundials in brazil
purple belt div.

I believe, he is originally a judo player, judo
players are excellent at the transition game from stand up to ground,
and yes they are great defensively ,there really isn't too much
time for a good ne-waza man to work on the ground,judo players
have become great at the defensive transition game.

I would love to hear from people on this forum ,who might be
crosstraining with bjj, as to what the drawbacks might be?
I personally cannot think of any,aside from the fact ,that i am
not doing as much standup ,as i would like,but for me at this time in
my life, it might be a good thing to prevent injury.

Hector Gomez

Ben Reinhardt
25th October 2001, 15:16
Originally posted by hector gomez
YES BEN , rhadi fergerson has been doing very well in judo and the bjj circuit ,i believe he took a silver at the mundials in brazil
purple belt div.

I believe, he is originally a judo player, judo
players are excellent at the transition game from stand up to ground,
and yes they are great defensively ,there really isn't too much
time for a good ne-waza man to work on the ground,judo players
have become great at the defensive transition game.

I would love to hear from people on this forum ,who might be
crosstraining with bjj, as to what the drawbacks might be?
I personally cannot think of any,aside from the fact ,that i am
not doing as much standup ,as i would like,but for me at this time in
my life, it might be a good thing to prevent injury.

Hector Gomez

David Camarillo is another USA judoka who trains extensively in BJJ and has done well in BJJ competitions. He switched from Judo (which he has done since childhood) to BJJ.

There is plenty of time for a good ne waza man to work on the ground, IF he (or she) makes progress. Two of the British female entries were very good on the ground, and won matches using it. They were continually making progress, forcing openings, etc.

The problem I see with BJJ folks making the transition to Judo is that the rules are so different. In Judo, if your standup game is weak, then you will lose, especially at the higher levels of competition. Also, BJJ allows for a much slower pace in their competition rules, even to the point of a stop in any real progress. David Camarillo and Rhadi have overcome that by moving very quicikly on the mat, continually trying to make openings to attack.

I would think that a Judoka crosstraining in BJJ would improve their matwork because of the amount of time spent focused on the ground. Unless they also kept up their Judo, though, their standing game would suffer. This has been, as I recall, the experience that David Camarillo has expressed on the Underground on several occasions.

Ben Reinhardt

hector gomez
29th October 2001, 15:33
I know ,i have mentioned this story before,but it's very
important, because of it's relationship to crosstraining.

Last year, i was at a judo tournament,when two blackbelt competitors got involved in a scuffle out by the concession stand,
from the very begining it was evident that these two judo blackbelts were fighting at range and distance that was unfamiliar
to them,to put it nicely, they were both throwing punches at eachother
that looked like "bitch slaps"neither was able to punch or kick
effectively or even shoot in to take the other down.

This is why, i strongly urge crosstraining in the striking
arts, to have at least the basic understanding in striking knowledge ,that helps you gain the upper hand until
your able to get into your grappling range.

The drawbacks to crosstraining in any art ,is spreading yourself
to thin.
Famous quote"jack of all trades master of none",but
with some intelligent training and having a good base in one art
first, these problems can be solved.

Hector Gomez