TDG #7

[Dojorat]

You are a student working a part-time job as a dormitory security guard. You are empoyed by Student Housing under the official auspices of the university. The University Police Dept. is fully aware of you and your function. They have briefed you on your responsibilities etc. You carry a "walkie-talkie" which connects you to the central UPD dispatcher. You also carry a flashlight ala Maglite. To make everything really bad... you've been training in martial arts for about 5 years, you're a 21 year old male "in your prime"

This will be in several parts sequenced according to how things unfold.

You are on foot patrol around the dorm complex. It's approx 10 p.m. you're alone but have a partner in the central office. There are a number of staff Resident Asst's in the dorm area nearby who know you and your job.

You come around a corner next to a women's dorm. Suddenly from out of the bushes bolts a young male who you obviously surprised from his hiding place. He takes off running through the outdoor commons of dorm complex.

First question... What do you do?

Do you chase him? do you let him go?

By the way, there have been reports of a Peeping Tom and signs of forced entry attempts around the dorm complex first floor windows.

and one more thing...
this is not too long after Ted Bundy's visit to the Chi Omega sorority.

Cheers,

[DJM]

Hi..
I'm thinking - but could you explain the reference to Ted Bundy, I assume it's an american thing?
Thanks,
David

[Neil Hawkins]

David,

Ted Bundy was a rather famous serial killer, who preyed on female college students in the US, I can't remember all the details, but I think he got 15 or so over a couple of states in the late 70's (I think), he was captured and escaped once, and was eventually sentenced to death.

Joe,

Can you be a little more specific as to what our duties are, that should explain our response, most people would want to give chase, however if this is a diversion and your duties clearly state that you have no aprehension powers then you should just take details, get descriptions and investigate where he came from. I'd be doing the later anyway, I hate running! :)

Regards

Neil

[Kolschey]

If you have a Walkie Talkie, I would think that it would be important to put it to use immediately, and appraise others of your situation. As the situation is already ambiguous, communication with your HQ is critical.

[Dojorat]

Greetins,

David,
Neil's response on Ted Bundy was right on... Sorry about referring to an incident that might not mean anything to some people. It's just that, in this scenario, Florida State University (where the sorority murders took place) happens to be within 3 hours driving distance of the campus on which you work.

Neil,
As far as instructions, the UPD instructed you to be "an extra set of eyes out there looking around. They don't pay you enough to risk getting hurt!"

As far as descriptions, you never saw the guy's face just his back as he took off out of the bushes in front of you.

This is a neat exercise!

Cheers,

[Daniel Pokorny]

Need more info on actual job duties, but it sounds like you already did the job by making him run.... If the problems persists I'd request additional bodies and try some stake outs for awhile. Ensure someone has a video camera. That's a great way to "capture the moment" if you will.......

Regards,

Daniel Pokorny

[Dojorat]

Greetins,

Okay, let's continue...

He takes off running through the courtyard. You, mistakenly or not, take off in foot pursuit chasing him across the commons through an exit and onto the sidewalk. You're smart enough not to try and "catch" him, just stay close enough to follow him and see where he goes. All the while you are trying to communicate with the UPD dispatcher through the walkie-talkie. You try to communicate your ID, your approx. location, your "suspect" description several times while the dispatcher asks you to repeat.

Try keeping a good sized hand held w-t to your mouth and communicating by voice while sprinting and hurdling low obstacles. Go for a run and carry a light dumbbell in one arm held up next to your head (you can carry a lighter one in the other hand, remember the Maglite) and, oh yeah, you gotta yell as you run.

Now, the next problem,

He suddenly stops and turns to face you. You're approximately 15 feet away. Do you leave? Do you confront him in some way?

[DJM]

Okay, thanks for the info Neil..
I'd probably chase him, but I'm a hot blooded young male, so...
;)
Having stopped running I'd make sure dispatch knew where I was now. Then I'd address the guy, assuming I didn't recognise him, along the lines of:
"Excuse me, but it's no use running, police are on their way. If you have a valid reason for being where you were then I'm sure we can discuss it when the police get here. It probably wasn't a good idea running though, since you're only going to look more suspicious. Hmm? Well, what do you have to say for yourself?"

I'd make sure he was well lit, either by street lamps or my maglite, then be ready to react. I'll make sure not to lose any of that 15 feet distance though..

Probably not strictly SOP, but hell I'm a college student, right?
;)
Probably still thinking about those girls in their nighties.. :D

Peace,
David

[Mark Brecht]

I apologize, as i am a bit overtired and might missed the point.

But why would you even consider chasing this guy???

What legal grounds (e.g. reasonable suspicions) do you have???

What, none of us had ever to take a leak somewhere???

There are so many reasons, why this guy could have been in the bush, but i do not see one reason why i would have the right to chase this guy. Did he break any law, do i have any indication or "reasonable suspicion" that he did???

[Dojorat]

Greetins,

Ok, so there you are, standing on the sidewalk about 15 feet away from a very winded suspected peeping tom/burglar/rapist whom you've chased about 3-4 city blocks through a campus dormitory area when suddenly he stops and turns to face you and says...

"DON'T SHOOT ME!!!"

What do you do with him now?

[Mark Brecht]

Suspect? Why? Is this still part of the beginning of the threat...???

I do not consider him a suspect as i did not notice a crime being committed nor attempted...

Did you ever consider the liabilities of chasing a guy just because of a hunch. He feels threaten (with a reason as you chase him...) and might run accidently in front of a car... His family would have every right to sue you...

:( Anyway, lets just play along with your thing:
Hm, what could you do??? Shoot him, not possible as your scenario did not provide me with a firearm (:D).

He would have evcry right in the world to tell you to: F*** off!!! I can not see any legal reason why you could detain him even for questioning...

Unless, schools policy, demands identification at any time... (as we are still on schools property). But that would be a school`s policy, not necessarly the law...

[Jeff Cook]

I think Ted Bundy did most of his work in Gator Country, University of Florida. I was a student there at one time, and I have a state of Florida Security Officer's License.

From that perspective, you observe and report, and try to verbally detain for identification purposes. If he turns and faces you asking you not to shoot, tell him to get down on the ground, face down, arms out to the side, legs spread. Ask him for identification if he remains on his feet but not running, but have him place his I.D. on the ground and back away from it before you pick it up to look at it.

As was wisely pointed out, no crime was observed; maybe the individual was trespassing. If so, a security officer in the state of Florida may take whatever means are necessary (within reason and the use-of-force matrix) to remove the trespasser from the property - he cannot physically detain him for trespassing, unless it is some form of felonious trespassing.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Dojorat]

Okay, Thanks to all who participated in my feeble attempt at TDG Keymaster, let's close this out...

You realize "he thinks the radio is a gun!" so you keep that card close to the vest by putting the radio out of his clear line of sight and keep the flashlight in his eyes. You tell him to sit down and if he does as he's told you won't shoot him (you won't shoot him if he's does anything but you're bluffing here), you tell him to produce some id, and when he does you have him place it on the ground and back away. Once you verify it's his id you confirm that UPD is on the way and you wait.

A uniformed patrol officer drives up and takes the both of you to the office where he takes down the id info and then lets the guy go. The cop believes you that the guy was peeping and got spooked. They'll have a record of this incident if there are any other reports.

You head back out knowing that, THANKS TO YOU, the world is once again safe for decent folk everywhere.

Cheers,

P.S. Without doing any research, I believe Bundy's "known" Florida murders took place in the Chi Omega Sorority House on the FSU campus. He also abducted and murdered a young girl in Lake City, Fla. He was also very active in the Northwest I believe around Seattle and in the Salt Lake City area of Utah.

FSU, Florida State Univ. known to Gator's everywhere as Fla's Second Rate University, should never be confused with THE UNIVERSITY of Florida at Gainesville.

GO GATORS,

Joe Montague UF BSE '78, MAMRD '82

"It's great
to hate...
Florda State,
I said
it's great
to hate
Florida State..."

[Mark Brecht]

I got some serious legal concerns with this solution...

Anbody else???

[Jeff Cook]

Sorry, Joe, I was actually thinking of Danny Rolling. You are right on the money concerning Bundy. So many serial killers out there I can't keep them all straight!

Mark, I too have a problem with inferring that the suspect will be shot by the security guard. Whether you have a gun or not is irrelevant; if you threaten to shoot someone, I believe it can be called assault.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Dojorat]

What think I told him was...

"Sit down, give me your id and I won't shoot you!"

Is that an implied threat?

I didn't say anything beyond that and did not attempt to physically detain him in any manner. I have no idea what inferences he made from my remark, but he didn't go anywhere.

I'll leave it to the experts out there to decide if this is a right and proper approach.

Cheers,

[IchiRiKen1]

My knowledge of the Law comes from serving the US Army for the past 5 years as a military paralegal (71D for you Army types out there!)

Communicating a Threat (Article 134, Uniform Code of Military Justice) entails that a communication of an intent to do wrongful bodily harm be completed. It goes on to say that it is not necessary that the accused actually intended to follow through with the threat, only that the threat be made. So telling him "sit down and I won't shoot you" implies that if he doesn't comply with your directive you will pop caps in his rump. That amounts to a threat for the Gubment...

Assault is a wrongful touching of some sort, no matter how slight; so long as the touching was unwarrented and unwanted, it is assault. (Article 128, UCMJ for you Army types...)

Having been a civilian rent-a-cop, and having done my share of guard duty for Uncle Sam, there is a responsibility to use only the force necessary to effect your duties, and as a rent-a-cop (at least in Nebraska, my home state, "GO BIG RED!!!") your duties end at the property line. So you can chase him all you want so you can NOT apprehend him (in Nebraska you don't have powers of arrest), and if he crosses the property line you can think of all kinds of stern things to say to him if he comes back on campus! So long as he is off the premises, your duty is done.

Just my 2 yen...

[Dojorat]

Your Honor(s),

I, out of the great benevolence of my heart and true sympathy for the everyman, had concerns...

He had come out of the bushes and was obviously lost so...
I was trying to find out who he was and where he belonged

He was out of breath so...
I told him to sit down

He thought I wanted to shoot him so...
I told him I wouldn't shoot him.

I rest my case!

What more could I have done?

Why are some inferring that I'm the wrong doer here?

Obviously, the duly authorized law enforcement officer who took the report saw nothing wrong in what I had done.

Cheers,

[IchiRiKen1]

That was nice! I like it!

I never said that military justice was perfect, nor did I say that given the previously described scenario that there was an open and shut case of Communicating a Threat.

What I DID say was that what the notional security officer did could be construed as a violation of said punitive Article, and if the same situation was given to me, that is how I would charge it.

Now, if indeed it went to trial, a savvy Defense Counsel could well argue that your breakdown was in fact the intention of the guard. I don't think a Military Judge would buy it, nor would the panel (jury), but it would be an admirable attempt!

You ever think about a career in law??? :-)

[Dojorat]

Greetins Mr. Ichiriken1

What on earth did I ever do to you that you cast at me one of the worst insults I've ever come across on e-budo? I'm shocked that the moderator and administrators of this fine forum would let such an obscene gesture of undeniable gall go unrestrained and without an admonishment of the severest nature. The mere hint of a suggestion that someone should consider law as a career makes any reference to the carnal activities of one's mother pale in comparison.

Name the place sir and I shall meet you so as to seek payment in blood and honor for the wrong with which you have defamed me.

To all you barristers... would an essay like that get far on the LSATs???

Cheers, Kicks and Grins...

[Bob Steinkraus]

I would have done everything as described (given chase, kept my distance until help arrived, not touched or come close to the suspect) with the sole exception of this.

Once he said "Don't shoot me!!!", I would have barked "Turn around and kneel down with your hands on your head!" I would NOT have stated or implied that I had a gun. I can't do anything about his false impressions that I did.

Best of all possible worlds. He gets to think I am going to snap a cap in his sorry butt, I get to drive off some creep who was peeking into windows. He was probably tooting his own horn (so to speak) while he was peeping, so his pants would likely be at half mast, so no wonder I could outrun him. Your scenario didn't say this, but even if he were urinating in the bushes, his fly would have been open at least. Maybe we can bust him for indecent exposure and embarass heck out of him.

[bigdog21]

As was wisely pointed out, no crime was observed; maybe the individual was trespassing. If so, a security officer in the state of Florida may take whatever means are necessary (within reason and the use-of-force matrix) to remove the trespasser from the property - he cannot physically detain him for trespassing, unless it is some form of felonious trespassing.

the other time you can physically detain him is for your safety or a breach of peace per common law.

THE BREACH OF PEACE CITIZENS ARREST IS OUTLINED IN EDWARDS V STATE

[jest]

As was wisely pointed out, no crime was observed; maybe the individual was trespassing. If so, a security officer in the state of Florida may take whatever means are necessary (within reason and the use-of-force matrix) to remove the trespasser from the property - he cannot physically detain him for trespassing, unless it is some form of felonious trespassing.

the other time you can physically detain him is for your safety or a breach of peace per common law.

THE BREACH OF PEACE CITIZENS ARREST IS OUTLINED IN EDWARDS V STATE

Although I'm sure the information you supplied is worthwhile, I have to ask: you did notice that this was a 5 and a half year old thread, didn't you?

[bigdog21]

yea but the laws are still the same