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View Full Version : What does you art contribute to close quarter combatives?



sect_7
20th October 2001, 00:50
I am curious as to what people believe their art contribute to the use of close quarter combatives? Tell me what you think. I'm hopping people from the vast majority of art (minimum) will post.

Kolschey
20th October 2001, 21:09
The experience of frustration, pain and fatigue several times a week.


By the way, the poll you offered really should allow people to choose more than one art.

Jeffrey Goodwin
21st October 2001, 23:39
I agree with my learned colleague above - it would have been better to have been able to choose more than one art within the poll.

But it is interesting all the same.

Yours in Budo

Jeffrey Goodwin.

sect_7
22nd October 2001, 03:13
If there is a way to allow more than one answer on a poll, to quote ross perot, 'I'm all ears'. I also regret than i didn't put karate on the list as it is so common, however I found myself unable to edit the poll.

Sgathak
22nd October 2001, 20:06
How about if those people who study more than one art post what those arts are?

Ive studied a bunch of diffrent arts over the years, mostly "a month here, 2 months there"

Ive found a school that I really enjoy and will probably be spending alot of time at... I think its a school Ill be sticking with for quite a while. There, they teach Systema, Sambo, and Rukopashnii Boi.... All of them are Russian Martial Arts

Kolschey
22nd October 2001, 21:05
I have heard of the other two arts, but this is the firt time I have heard of Rukopashnii Boi. I would be interested in knowing what distinguishes it from the other two arts, and where I might find more infomation about it.

Jeffrey Goodwin
22nd October 2001, 22:59
This is an area I know very little about but I can offer the following:

A few years ago I was studying control & restraint techniques in the Slovak Republic and we discussed Russian martial arts (Slovakia had been a Communist/ Warsaw Pact Country).

From what I was told, Rukopashnii Boi (translating as something like "Fist Fighting") is a system of striking techniques (likened to Atemi Jutsu/ boxing) which distinguishes itself from Sambo which is fundamentally, a grappling system.

These may seem like sweeping generalisations but I did say that I'm no expert on the subject matter!

Yours in Budo

Jeffrey Goodwin

"Keep up your bright swords for the dew will rust them".

Sgathak
22nd October 2001, 23:38
Rukopashnii Boi is a hard, direct version of Systema, often classified in special forces training as Combat Sambo, though the two arnt nessesarily the same thing.

If you have any sort of "visualization" on systema, imagine it with some more punches and kicks, toss in the really nasty Sambo techniques, and youll have a pretty good idea of Rukopashnii Boi.


J Robbins

PS I dont have enough training in ANY of the above arts to speak definativly... just a bit of research and a strong intrest.

Kolschey
23rd October 2001, 00:02
Would it then be an accurate assesment to consider this a contemporary system, then? I know that Sambo is a fusion of various different techiques, and I have heard some accounts of the heritage of Systema, which is presumed to be older than Sambo. By modifying and combining aspects of these arts, my guess would be that the result may be considered to be a modern creation. Am I accurate in that belief?
Many thanks,

Sgathak
23rd October 2001, 00:05
Not sure, I have class tonight, Ill ask the instructor and let you know what I find out


J Robbins

Sgathak
23rd October 2001, 03:51
I asked the instructor for some details on Rukopashnii boi. He said that the literal translation is "Unarmed Combat" I knew "boi" ment combat but didnt know what Rukopashnii ment.

Anywho, Rukopashnii Boi (im just gonna call it RB from now on, thats a long word LOL) IS Systema... but it is harder.

An example that might explain it... When practicing Systema you start as a "stick", then move on to being a "chain", then you become a "rope" and once you have mastered Systema you move like "water"...

Well... RB is being a "chain" and staying at that level... but RB isnt being "stuck" at that level, it is Mastering it. If you choose to you can work on Systema and become "like water" or you can focus on being hard and perfect your RB

Its important to remember that the Russians arnt told that they are learning a certain martial art... they are just told "Were going to learn Unarmed Combat" or "Rukopasnii Boi"


Hope that helped a little



J Robbins

Kolschey
23rd October 2001, 11:58
That does help, and I like the rope/chain analogy.
Are there any sites dedicated to Rukopashnii Boi online, or is it fundamentally covered by the existing information on Systema?

Again many thanks!

Sgathak
23rd October 2001, 21:44
Its pretty much covered by the information on Systema... From history to technique.

The only major diffrences being applications.

as another example. In systema, say you had an open face shot presented to you... In systema you would push the face, or otherwise knock the oppnent off balance. In Rukopashnii Boi, given the same circumstance you would do a palm heel strike with the intent of crushing his face AND knocking him off balance.


J Robbins

AmerROSS
24th October 2001, 07:50
Rukopashni Boi is not a style of Russian Martial Art. It is the Russian phrase for the condition of conducting hand to hand combat on the battlefield. (It also includes the use of weapons, and it certainly not "unarmed combat.")

In contradistinction, Kulachni Boi is too not a style of RMA. It is the Russian phrase for the condition of conducting hand to hand fist fighting.

"Combat-flavor" Sambo is an aspect of SAMBO, which comprises three directions (or flavors) of training: Sport ("grappling"), Combat ("self-defense"), and Specialized (Special warfare). Sambo is only Sambo as a total, despite that some people outside Russia have commercialized "portions" of training.

Combat-flavor Sambo could be considered Rukopashni Boi, which is like saying Combat flavor Sambo could be considered military hand to hand combat.

Fisticuffs is a style of RMA, a specific method of hand to hand fist-fighting, and as a result, could be called "Kulachni Boi."

There are many styles of RMA (such as Buza, Skobar, Samoz, Spas, Sploch, Slavyano-Goretskaya Bor'ba, Silni, Golitsin-family style, to name a few) , but unfortunately, many foreigners are now assuming that Russian words mean Russian-styles.

As time passes, people will become more educated on Russian Martial Art, as they are in Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Okinawan, and so on.

The International Federation of Russian Martial Art was formed in Russia over a decade ago, just after the dissolution of former Soviet Union (even though martial art is STILL technically outlawed in modern Russia - the law is not enforced... right now.) The IFRMA was sanctioned by the National Olympic Committee of Russia as the official repository and representative of Russian Martial Art so that all of the various styles could be researched, supported and shared with the world.

The most popular and widely-known form of Russian Martial Art (to distinguish from Soviet style of Sambo) is R.O.S.S. or Rossijskaya Otechestvennaya Sistema Samozashchity. In English language, this can be translated as the "Russian Native System of Self-defense". ROSS was developed by Gen. Alexander Ivanovich Retuinskih, President of the International and All-Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art, Vice-Chairman of the International Combat Sambo Commission for FIAS (International Sambo Federation) and Chairman of the Russian Combat Sambo Committee, Honoured Coach of Russia. ROSS is the training system of Russian Martial Art researched and formulated by the RETAL Center and endorsed and approved by the IRFRMA, which is sanctioned and authorized by the National Olympic Committee of Russia as the sole official representative of Russian Martial Art within Russia and worldwide.

At the present time in the RETAL Center, the training headquarters of the Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art, a method of training specialists is being developed and tested. The indicated method is determined as "Know-How" (registered with the State enterprise "Inform patent" Committee of the Russian Federation by patent and trademark of April 4, 1995).

The application of the indicated methods allow for the sufficient preparation of specialists or athletes for hand-to-hand combat in a relatively short span of time, and also for the use of latent reserves of the human being. ROSS is available for any age and health for people under any condition considering the least time and energy expenditure. Training is designed to imbed neuromuscular memory and imprint psychophysiology with the basic Survival preparation practiced exclusively by the trainers of the elite combat subdivisions of the Russian Spetsnaz Special Operation Units. The training is designed to introduce a reeducation of biomechanical awareness and bio-energetic potential critical for the neutralization of even the highest intensity conflict of armed plural-assailant engagements and the rejuvenation and regeneration of the physical wellness and fortitude crucial to survival.

For more information on ROSS, go to http://www.ross.ru.

Kolschey
24th October 2001, 12:56
Wow! Thanks for joining in to clarify things. That definitely helps.
There is one phrase that I do not understand:

bio-energetic potential
May I ask what is meant by this term?
Many thanks!

AmerROSS
24th October 2001, 16:21
Glad you liked.
Bio-energy refers to metabolic potential prior to systemic ultimate failure point, like the bio-juice that when depleted results in fatigue, exhaustion, hunger, injury, etc...
All the best,
Vladimr Belo
www.amerross.com

Sgathak
24th October 2001, 17:33
:rolleyes:

No point in argueing... AmerROSS will try and sue me for it.

I can say "amerROSS" without violating some copyright law correct?

Anyway... I already said once that Im not an expert (would be nice if amerROSS could get that through his head) and am just reporting what my Instructors have relayed to me. That is all.

Just remember that amerROSS (the guy and the organization) isnt the be all and end all of RMA and If your interested in RMA now, check around with various techers and schools and compair and contrast.

check out http://www.russianmartialart.com (Vladimir Vasiliev's site for his school)
check out http://www.systemamartialart.com (John Giduck's school)

Both of the above schools are members of the World Federation of Russian Martial Arts. The founders being Vlad Vasiliev, Mikhail Ryabko, and Oleg Taktarov with John Giduck being president of the organization (so expect a little bit of overlap in the information... Both are more sites for their respective schools than a site for the WFRMA as a whole)

and check out http://www.amerross.com

Both WFRMA and AARMACS/amerROSS have training videos for sale, training clothing (Oleg offers Sambofki and Custom Sized Kurta, and V. Vasiliev has training T-shirt, and Sweatshirts. While amerROSS has grappling shoes and the "mabuta"), training weapons, as well as a training organization/federation which has benifits such as members only seminars and so on.

Find the group thats right for you and embrace their teachings... Both have alot to offer


J Robbins

AmerROSS
24th October 2001, 18:11
J Robbins,
You claimed you weren't an expert. You are right.
This is why correct information was posted.
Old saying goes, "reaction reflects character." When one reacts childishly to being corrected and informed, one exposes true nature.
FYI: Copyright protection is case-insensitive. :rolleyes:

Sgathak
24th October 2001, 18:26
Well, that was fun and all... Could sling mud like this all day... But I wont...

Anyway... Everybody look around and find out for yourself.

Dont take My word, or amerROSS's word either...

You can only find out for yourself.


J Robbins

AmerROSS
24th October 2001, 19:39
Fortunately, people cannot take word from a website (AmerROSS, or amerROSS as you so fondly decide to :cry:

Try www.AmerROSS.com, and www.ROSS.ru and all of the associated links at http://www.amerross.com/links.html such as the Russian Olympic Committee, Interanational Sambo Federation, and Black Belt Magazine, whose Publisher Richard Price accompanied Scott Sonnon, North American Head Trainer of ROSS, to Russia, to meet and archive his visit with the Russian Special Forces Trainers and Russian Olympic Coaches of ROSS. For endorsement from Russian President Mr. V. Putin, go to http://www.amerross.com/iouf.html.

Kolschey
24th October 2001, 21:07
Goodness gracious...I really didn't want to start a flame war here. I was curious about information on these arts, and I really do appreciate the help both of you have given. I don't want this to turn ugly, so in the interest of keeping peace I will gently bow out of this discussion.
Again, thanks to both of you.

Don Roley
25th October 2001, 13:53
Originally posted by AmerROSS
The most popular and widely-known form of Russian Martial Art (to distinguish from Soviet style of Sambo) is R.O.S.S. or Rossijskaya Otechestvennaya Sistema Samozashchity.

Carefull, does the name "Fred Villari" mean anything to you?

I have to give you some friendly advice. You seem to be trying to fit your message to another sort of audience than you find here. Your comment about how ROSS is the most popular Russian art is an example of something that might impress people that have never heard of the word "MacDojo", and have the complete opposite effect with most of the people here. The same goes for any "official" status you might have with any sports orginization or endorsements you might have with anyone other than a proffesional martial arist of good quality. Someone may have the best product on the planet, but if they use the same techniques to sell their art that we have seen time and time again on these boards, then we tend to lump them together with the people that are less skilled in martial arts than they are in marketing.

I have an interest in Russian martial arts since I have bought a tape set from ROSS and have some tapes from Systema in my care. Based on what I have seen, I have decided to study Systema whenever I can and read everything I can lay my hands on about Russian martial arts. Perhaps you can respond to the following statements made at,

http://glory.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/ruseng.html


"Another verison of Spiridonov's system is so-called "Kadochnikov's system". A.A.Kadochnikov works as teacher of theoretical mechanicks in Krasnodar military colledge of rocketry and artillery. On the base of Spiridonov's work and his own knoledges about mechanics of movement he developed his own system of hand-to-hand combat. This is science-based investigations of our time, useful in real fighting. He tried to establish his system as basic system for army's hand-to hand combat, but without success. But later, at 1980s, several students of Kadochnikov began to claim, that their system is old russian martial art, that they able to prepare a good fighter during four months and instructor - during two years. At the same time they outraged all other martial arts, claimed that oriental martial arts are "unnatural" for western people; but they didn't accept challenges from representatives of oriental martial arts. Several years later their popularity in USSR became very low, but some of them were successful in opening schools in other countries. Usually they claims that this is an old russian martial art, or that this is a system of russian special forces ("spetsnaz"). In real life, russian special forces use simplified hand-to-hand combat systems, based on shotokan karate, taekwondo and sambo.

In recent years one of Kadochnikov's students - Retyunskih - developed his own system - ROSS ("Russian Own System of Self-defence")."

I am somewhat disturbed by the comments, and have no way of confirming or denying their accuracy. What kind of proof can you give to put my mind at ease?

BTW, one of the best sources for finding links and such about all the Russian martial arts availible on the internet can be found at,

http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/russia2.html

They have an article on the health system offered by ROSS as well as articles on Systema in addition to the many links they feature.

Walker
25th October 2001, 16:25
Hey guys! we’re talking about Russians here. Come on, of course a flame war is in order. Heck, if there isn’t a nasty fight going on when I go to buy sausage at the Russian market I think I’m at the wrong place.
“Your thumb was on the scale!”
“No it was not!”
“Yes it was!!”
“No!!”
“Yes!!!”
“No!!!”
etc....
:look:

AmerROSS
25th October 2001, 17:04
Kadochnikov was one of the teachers of Retuinskih, you are right.

Yes, you are right. Pete Kautz, man who is founder and head trainer of Alliance Martial Art studies under Scott Sonnon.

As far as McDojo being ROSS, that's a really wise advice. But popularity does not always mean commercial exploit. In 6 years in America, Scott only has 4 licensed instructors, several instructor trainees, and less than 20 instructor trainee candidates. Scott was international, Pan-American, and Grand National Champion in Sambo. He also served as USA National Sambo Coach, and USA National Bayonet Fencing Coach, as well as USA Police Olympics Coach. He has trained anywhere from UFC winners like Elvis Sinosic to professional sports teams like NHL's New Jersey Devils, to now serving as the Performance Enhancement Coach for the US National Law Enforcement and Security Institute (www.nlsi.net). He's produced over 40 video performance enhancement aids in many directions receiving testimonials from Grandmasters to Olympic coaches. He's been featured in almost every martial art magazine, including Black Belt Magazine, two consecutive months in a row, as well as having appeared on various television shows.

The reason ROSS is most popular in Russia is politics, of course, but also because it is quality.

Don Roley
27th October 2001, 01:03
Originally posted by AmerROSS
Kadochnikov was one of the teachers of Retuinskih, you are right.

Thank you. Your manual stated that ROSS was based on the heritage of the Spiridonovian system, but did not expalin how it got from the 30s to Retuinshih's time. So it would seem that Kodochnikov was the bridge between them.

It also may explain why the civilian developed and oriented ROSS system has a slight resemblence to the combat system used in the Spetsnaz units and taught by Vladimir Vasilov under the name "Systema."

Spiridonov was a developer of "Combat Sambo" that was taught to the NKVD and recconaisance units. These later became known as spetsnaz units. He also seems to have had a hand in the "Sport Sambo" as well as his art of Samoz. So the combat sambo probably was passed down through the military over decades and evolved in that contex. While Samoz was taught to Kadochnikov and modified into his system. And that system was in turn modified by Retuinskih into ROSS. So even though ROSS has nothing to do with the Spetsnaz units and Systema, they have a common heritage in the form of Spiridonov. Some people (like the article I mentioned) probably would still refer to the art taught in the Spetsnaz units as sambo, but the military might have come up with its own term (i.e. Systema) in order to distinguish between sport and combat forms.

At least, this theory seems to fit all the facts as far as I can tell and explains why there is a resemblance between the Systema that is taught in the military Spetsanz units and the civilian ROSS system.

AmerROSS
27th October 2001, 01:25
ROSS is available in a civilian form, you are right.
However, ROSS is also the system of combatives and physical preparedness for many elite combat subdivisions of the Russian Special Forces "Spetsnaz". I'm not sure why you are saying that Vladimir Vasiliev's System is the combatives training for Spetsnaz; even on their website you shall find that less than 100 people in Russia actually train in his system.
ROSS is the system of combatives and physical preparedness for OMON, MVD's Vityaz, VDV, FSB, Condor, Al'fa units of Byelorussia, Lithuanian Border Guards, Estonian special operations units, Ukrainian special police units, Latvian special police units, Russian Marines of Vladivostok and Sevastopol, to name just a few.
Also, I'm not sure on your research on ROSS, but Gen. Alexander Retuinskih (founder of ROSS) had many influencial teachers:
Also, most Spetsnaz during USSR referred to ROSS as "Combat Sambo Spetsnaz" and sometimes to "Systema". Vladimir Vasiliev's system has nothing to do with Alexei Kadochinkov's system. There are actually hundreds of "Systema" in former Soviet Union from Belov to Medved to Volk to Svetailo, and many military "Systema" such as BARS, UNIBOS, SPAS, as well as many folk styles such as Sobor, Skobar, Buza, Spas (Ukranian-style), Slavyano-Goretskaya Bor'ba.
Aleksandr M. Krivorotov - Distinguished Coach of Russia in Sambo - the first ever in history. Mr. Krivorotov was the most significant contributor to Gen. Retuinskih's training and is the most famous Sambo coach in the former USSR.

Vladimir V. Volosov - Distinguished Coach of Russia in Sambo (current Chairman of Sambo Academy in Kstovo)

Vladimir P. Guliaev - Distinguished Coach of Bashkiria in Sambo

Uriu A. Shulik - Master of Sport in Sambo, Doctor of Pedagogical Sciences (current Professor of Krasnodar State Academy of Physical Culture)

G. Potoroka - Master of Sport in Sambo and Judo (deceased)

Don Roley
27th October 2001, 06:17
Well, now I must admit to being confused.

You claim that ROSS is taught in the Russian military to several elite units. And yet the article I found says that it is not. Also, none of the materials I have seen from ROSS would seem to indicate that there is any proof that there is any real military link. The pictures in the manual, and the clips in the videos do not show the founder of ROSS in a military uniform with insignia, only camo uniforms with ROSS patches and sometimes without any patches. For example, there is a scene where Alexander Retuinskih is shown teaching people in caom outits without insignia. He himself wheres what looks ot be an airborne uniform, but the patch he wears is that of ROSS and not any military unit like the airborne.

Also, the background of the pictures do not look like military bases to me. Instead they are mainly sport stadums and areas where children are walking in the background. If there had been a few tanks in the background I would be more convinced.

The thing is, a lot of people have tried to make a link with their art to elite military units. Every art from SCARS to Hwarang- Do claim to be "the" art practiced by SEALs. Of course, many of us are now suspicious of anyone making such claims and ask for a bit of proof.

Worse, many frauds have tried to make claims of military service that are proven false. Frank Dux comes to mind, but there is also the case of the founder of the American Bando association who claimed to have been a Ghurka in WWII, and whose students where very sincere in defending him. But the facts where eventually revealed.

Before he was exposed, magazines such as SOF and Command Magazine wrote articles about him. And these claims were made in English and a lot more verifiable than claims in Russian would be.

So I must say that I am more likely to believe the article about how ROSS is not a military art over your word. But I believe that you are sincere in your beliefs that it is. And until you could point me to some proof it would seem that there is really not much we can talk about calmly.

AmerROSS
27th October 2001, 06:42
Can you tell me what article it is that claims otherwise?

Video clips of work with several special operations units are available in the beginning of most ROSS videos at www.amerross.com, such as in the BAYONET video series, and even the testimonial from Russian President Mr. Putin himself on the IOUF video series.

I'm not sure what your claims are or background knowledge of Russian Special Forces and the ROSS Training System, but you are misinformed.

Also, you may plainly see this at www.ross.ru.

What concerns me most is that your position seems to be one of belief based upon what you have seen in your limited research of ROSS. If you do the research, you'll find out to the contrary. The American Annex regularly sends people to Russia to train with the Spetsnaz trainers of ROSS. You should apply and go yourself, and then you'll know beyond doubt.

Finally, contact Black Belt Magazine if you wish. Publisher, Richard Price, was present for training IN RUSSIA with various units when being trained directly by Gen. Alexander Retuinskih and Alexander Kisten, Head Trainer of Minsk's Al'fa Units.

It's really quite surprising that you would make such statements. The knowledge is quite available for anyone to see.

Don Roley
27th October 2001, 07:56
Originally posted by AmerROSS
Video clips of work with several special operations units are available in the beginning of most ROSS videos

Well, I thought I referenced that. I have some videos from you, and at the beggining there are what appears to be clips taken from official films and news sources on Spetsnaz units. Interspaced with them are several clips of people obviously training in ROSS while wearing camo uniforms and the like. But when people are obviously doing ROSS, there is no military insignia on the uniforms or any type of indicators that the training is going on in an official military context.

And I just got the latest copy of Black Belt yesterday and see that the Systema will be taking several students to train on a military base next Spring where they will have the chance to do work around tanks and the like. But I also know that the cult that gassed the subways in Japan was able to recieve military training on Russian military bases. Since the standards for base use seem to a bit more lax than what we are used to in the west, I am not willing to say that Systema or ROSS is legitimate based solely on the fact that people can go and shoot weapons on a military base in Russia with them.

Of course, if a member of the MVD or Border Guards walked into your training hall on his own then you would be technically correct in saying that, "ROSS has been taught to members of several elite units including the MVD and border guards." But it would not be the same as it being the official art of those units. And many other arts such as Shotokan Karate and Aikido could also make the same claim.

My own teacher has letters and plaques from Presidents Bush, Clinton, Reagan as well as other world leaders such as Tony Blair and Chirac. He also has gone to places like the FBI and SAS facilities to instruct his art and has letters of appreciation from them. And there are several active members of groups like the US Special Forces and Marine Force Recon personally known to me who train in his art. But that is not to say that the art has any official status and is taught as part of the training that all Special Forces soldiers receive.

I am not trying to be antagonistic here, but I do have strong suspicions after years of seeing claims of secret spetsnaz training and other dubious claims. And I am not willing ot lay aside those doubts or take someone at their word without objective sources to back up their claims. And the responses I am getting are not easing my doubts. If we try to be less snippy and deal with objective facts and logic we will be much better off. I am dismayed at the turn this conversation seems to be making.

AmerROSS
27th October 2001, 08:06
I'm wondering where it is that I said that ROSS was the "official" system of the Spetsnaz? There is NO official system of the Spetsnaz. There never has been. People in West don't understand the complexities of Spetsnaz and decentralization of training. Most Spetsnaz train in "modified" hand to hand combat, based upon Kyokushinkai Karate, then Judo and Sambo, then Combat Sambo, then others with specialized training.
It's insane to say that ANY system is "official" doctrine of hand to hand combat for Russian Special Forces.
I don't know what videos you possess. Which ones are they? The ones I suggested?
Your comment was that ROSS was a civilian system and that "Systema" was military. I replied that there is no "systema" that is standard to anything. Systema is Russian language meaning only "system" and didn't come into vogue until after Batman comic book talked about it. Now everyone has a "systema". Russia has as much diversity as Chinese martial art.
ROSS is certainly not merely a civilian style. I offered you resources to demonstrate this.
I'm not sure you are looking for this though.

Don Roley
27th October 2001, 09:26
Originally posted by AmerROSS
Your comment was that ROSS was a civilian system and that "Systema" was military.

Actually, it may be better to say that ROSS was developed, orginized and run by civilians, where as the art the we know as "Systema" is the style of combat sambo and other arts that Vladimir Vasilov learned from his anti- terrorist Spetsnaz unit instructors, and that it reflected the lessons that they had learned as soldiers in battle.

AmerROSS
27th October 2001, 16:15
Now you are beginning to seem either deliberately disparaging or antagonistic, running this in circles.

Which video is it that you purchased from amerross.com?

You state no intelligence regarding Vladimir Vasiliev learning his style in military, yet you make wild claims that founders of ROSS were non-military.

Firstly, if you contact Vladimir, he will tell you that despite his training in military, he did not learn what he teaches, his teacher's (Mikhail Ryabko) style in military, but outside of service. Mikhail Ryabko will tell you that he did not learn his style in military, but from an "uncle" outside of service.

Furthermore, ROSS was developed by cadre of military trainers, used and implemented ROSS for military training, rather than civilian. Gen. Alexei Kadochnikov was one of founding contributors of ROSS, and there are several magazine interviews with him and Gen. Retuinskih discussing this. Including article about how on first day of first MILITARY training, Gen. Kadochnikov decided to no longer want involvement with the newly created agency for training hand to hand combat. He chose this because he wanted only private students and non-government, non-military involvement in his school.

It is fine if you BELIEVE this to be otherwise, but your comments are not one of stating beliefs, but of stating facts. Facts that do not exist, and are based on conjecture and assumption (conjecture and assumption that you seem not to apply to other directions, styles, people).

Systema was never taught to special forces. People's systems were. It was never standardized, and never unified, and never official.

You seem not very interested in backing up your claims with proof. I've provided you resources, online and in video (especially www.ROSS.ru and www.amerross.com), names, units. Vladivostok is not to far from you. Get the contact information from www.ROSS.ru for the Russian Marine base there. I'm sure that they would be happy to show you what their training comprises (ROSS, by the way.)

Don Roley
28th October 2001, 00:47
Well, I tend to believe the article that can be found at,

http://glory.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/...art/ruseng.html

When it says,

"But later, at 1980s, several students of Kadochnikov began to claim, that their system is old russian martial art, that they able to prepare a good fighter during four months and instructor - during two years.
(cut)
Usually they claims that this is an old russian martial art, or that this is a system of russian special forces ("spetsnaz"). In real life, russian special forces use simplified hand-to-hand combat systems, based on shotokan karate, taekwondo and sambo."

So the art that recruits that Russian special forces learn is not ROSS. the art that soldiers learn as part of their official military training is not anything as sophisticated as that. You seem very good at marketing by pointing out that many soldiers do study your sytem, but it seems a bit decietful to not point out that it is not part of official military curriculum in the training centers.

And the tapes I have are the military knife fighting and bayonet series. The tape on the exercises was faulty and I sent it back for a replacement around the end of summer, but I have not yet recieved any reply. I could seem from the tapes and from the Systema tapes that there were some similarities in the way that knives were handled and wondered about the link if any.

Now I think that both arts have a link decades ago in the form of the founders of "Combat Sambo" and other arts such as Spirodov system. The article seems to point out that most of the combat arts taught in the former Soviet Union were developed by a small group of people based mainly on ourside influences. Those foriegn influences were suppressed and a nationalistic history was given to it that was false but widely believed. In the case of Sambo, one of the founders was killed to keep the secret. So rather than a whole bunch of different martial arts being passed down through the centuries but resembling each other, most of these arts have a common heirtage less than a century ago and the small similarities can be explained by that common heritage.

AmerROSS
28th October 2001, 01:10
I find it laughable that you are making accusations of ROSS based upon an article, when you claim the article produced by ROSS are deceitful (especially since the said article is produced by "Siberian TRADITIONAL Martial Arts Association.")
Secondly, AmerROSS.com has NEVER not addressed returned videos, so if you did order BAYONET Biomechanical Bladework, I find it highly dubious that you claim no response was ever given. AARMACS, Inc. President Nikolay Travkin can be reached at travkin@abraxis.com, so if you have a problem and returned videos contact him directly and the order issue would be resolved within days.
If you did own BAYONET you would have seen images of Gen. Retuinskih in particular training the Spetsnaz forces guarding Baikanor space launching site in Bayonet Fencing, acrobatics and CQC.
Lastly, you ignored all relevant information from both AmerROSS.com and russianmartialart.com. Ryabko (Vasiliev's teacher) have nothing to do with Kadochnikov, and as a result have nothing to do with Spiridonov. Kadochnikov was not a student of Spiridonov and that heritage came to Retuinskih through Krivorotov, not Kadochnikov. You seem very intent on reiterating comments that have been already reframed with correct information. Y

You've moved from mildly antagonistic to outright offensive by calling ROSS deceitful, especially since you have no basis for doing so. Whoever you are, you obviously have no interest in being demonstrated otherwise than you uninvestigated belief system.

Don Roley
28th October 2001, 01:41
Originally posted by AmerROSS
I find it laughable that you are making accusations of ROSS based upon an article, when you claim the article produced by ROSS are deceitful (especially since the said article is produced by "Siberian TRADITIONAL Martial Arts Association.")

Normally I would not trust any article I find on the internet, nor websight. There is a lot of crap out there and most orginizations are willing to let things slide rather than take actions to correct bad information. But in the case of ROSS, I can see from actions on this board that your groups is very quick to threaten and use legal action. The fact is that this article that says that claims of ROSS being the art used by Russian special forces are not true has been left alone. I must conclude that it's claims can be backed up in court.


Originally posted by AmerROSS
Secondly, AmerROSS.com has NEVER not addressed returned videos, so if you did order BAYONET Biomechanical Bladework, I find it highly dubious that you claim no response was ever given.

I sent the tapes back by sea mail, I never heard anything back. I do not know if you ever got the tape or if it was lost either on its way to America or back. Or if you have even gotten it yet. (It was over 6 weeks ago.)


Originally posted by AmerROSS
If you did own BAYONET you would have seen images of Gen. Retuinskih in particular training the Spetsnaz forces guarding Baikanor space launching site in Bayonet Fencing, acrobatics and CQC.

I saw him in the opening credits teaching SOMEONE, but there were no military insignia on any of the camo uniforms, including Retuinskih. All I can say for sure is that he was teaching a group of men in what looked to be a sport stadium and he was wearing a uniform that resembled an airborne uniform, but with the ROSS patch where the airborne insignia should have been and his students were all wearing the camo overalls that you listed on your web sight as you official training uniform.

Sgathak
28th October 2001, 02:13
But in the case of ROSS, I can see from actions on this board that your groups is very quick to threaten and use legal action.

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8178&pagenumber=2

For those who are interested in following up this statement and seeing what Mr Roley is talking about the above link will explain it.

The links displayed in that thread no longer work... I have moved it to a hidden directory to review and revise much of the text. That should in no way dimenish the meaning of the information found in the thread.

AmerROSS quite rudely threatened me with legal action for making simple refrences to his art "ROSS" (as well as their system called "Zdyrove" which means nothing more than "health" in Russian) and principals found in ROSS as well as many other Russian Martial Arts. He did this response to an "art" (TenguJutsu) which never existed, never was ment to be "shared" or taught to anyone (and therefore never could have damaged its "purity" as was AmerROSS's claim), and had absolutly NO commercial use (and therefore was not a revenue threat) due to the fact that it was NEVER more than a "concept art". An art which was ment to be more of a personal learning tool than ANYTHING else.

I will leave it to everyone to determine for themselves the true motives of AmerROSS in that matter.



J Robbins

sect_7
28th October 2001, 02:22
And I just got the latest copy of Black Belt yesterday and see that the Systema will be taking several students to train on a military base next Spring where they will have the chance to do work around tanks and the like. But I also know that the cult that gassed the subways in Japan was able to recieve military training on Russian military bases. Since the standards for base use seem to a bit more lax than what we are used to in the west, I am not willing to say that Systema or ROSS is legitimate based solely on the fact that people can go and shoot weapons on a military base in Russia with them.

As far as that goes, I have done martial arts on a military base (in a gym, on the PT areas and the like.) and I can categorically state that training on a military base has nothing to with being military. My former dojo cho and sensei were there because the dojo was formed by a sergent who had interest in the art. And granted that practicing MA on a solid concrte floor can be tricky, I could've went to the 'Y' and practiced there on their gym floor as well (which I did).

At any rate, any one can buy black belts, camoflouge, and for that matter, I know how to obtain a purple heart metal, Military name plate, and a police like badge. For that matter a persons identetity can be faked on valid drivers licenses. Credential are certianly worth something, but only if skill backs them.

Just ponder this, What good is a blackbelt if any thug on the street can kick you ass, and the green belts have no trouble at all? Perhaps becoming a fraud would rip off the fraud as much as anyone because they lack any skill other than forgery and only rip off those seeking true information with an honest heart. (fraud in warfare, involving an enemy is excluded here, for obvious reasons.)

Brently Keen
31st October 2001, 19:33
I believe it is proper ettiquette here on e-budo to post your real name when participating in and contributing to discussions. This way everyone can know who is behind the words we read.

Brently Keen

Goju Man
6th November 2001, 22:44
Hello, I train in reality combat now. I originally started in Karate but have studied Judo, Aikido and BJJ. In reality combat, we practise Muay Thai for striking and JiuJitsu and Sambo for grappling. But it is the in between that we stress also, from the clinch grab or whatever, before you hit the ground. I beleive this is the most realistic way of training I have found yet. Everything is included and the only thing that is not included is what doesn't work. We are always open to new ideas and techniques. We experiment different techniques and put some of the traditional techniques to the test.


Regards,
Manny Salazar;)

sect_7
10th November 2001, 00:19
so who isn't using their real name.

Sgathak
10th November 2001, 00:21
The name "amerross" is used by 2 diffrent individuals

Scott Sonnon and Vladimir Belo


J Robbins

Brently Keen
10th November 2001, 01:05
I'm not a moderator here, but I am a regular participant, and I think that if two people want to use the same signature that's fine, however Scott and Vladimir each ought to indicate at the end of each post exactly who is writing/speaking.

E-budo rules and proper etiquette require signing your posts with your real first and last name. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a hard time taking seriously any posts from anonymous and evasive individuals.

Brently Keen