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jimmy o'curry
20th October 2001, 00:53
hello;

has anyone here heard of a sutemiwaza called tsuri-otoshi?

there is a sumo throw of the same name, but it is not a sacrifice nage.

apparently, tsuri-otoshi was once in the Kodokan's Kata of Throws, but no judo people seem to know much about it these days, at least in the USA.

thanks for reading.

jeff slade

MarkF
21st October 2001, 11:28
I applaud your conviction in finding an answer, but my suggestion would be to look in the original (before 1920) gokyo no waza. Also, as Kata Guruma was a late substitute for something else in the nage no kata, perhaps there is something to that in this case?

Mark

BTW: It seems even some of the better known technicians, Isao Inokuma and Nobuyuki Sata, in there book published in 1979, Best Judo don't know of it either, so you are in very good company.

BTW: A good source for this, at least the best I know of, would be Dickie Bowen at the Budokwai. I think I have his street address if you want to contact me by email I can come up with it, if it was lost in my move from another ISP, I know who has it. Or, you could write the Budokwai addressing it to his attention. Be sure to check the website first to see if he has an address there, but I don't think so.

If nothing else, I am probably going to be talking to someone this weekend who has been around since well before WWII, and his teacher (Kenny Kuniyuki) was bumped to san dan or some such dan by Kano himself at the Seattle Judo Dojo when he made his visit there (Kenneth K. - sensei is about 91 last time I heard).

Mark

MarkF
21st October 2001, 12:21
Jeff,
Take a look at your thread on tsuriotoshi in the judo forum. I have a partial explanation of what happened to that throw, and a good idea of what it may have looked like. It was dropped, as I thought, from the gokyo no waza in 1906. I knew there was a link to kata guruma.

Mark

Brian Griffin
21st October 2001, 14:32
Originally posted by MarkF
...my suggestion would be to look in the original (before 1920) gokyo no waza.
Tsuriotoshi was not included in the 1895 gokyo no nagewaza

jimmy o'curry
22nd October 2001, 04:08
thanks, fellas; i think it was dropped from the nage-no-kata.

i've e-mailed the kano society; maybe they can help me. but mark, any further information you may have or obtain would certainly be welcome.

jeff slade

MarkF
22nd October 2001, 09:35
Brian,
You can ask Joe Svinth about it. I believe his source for it is Richard Bowen.

jrsvinth@juno.com

It is a chapter from his soon to be released book on Judo in the Pacific Northwest.

Two throws were dropped, or changed, replaced by kata guruma and sumigaeshi. Standardizations were not in place until 1906 or thereabouts.

So if that throw was not in the "original" gokyo, it is only because it hadn't been standardized and was added at a later date (if it were indeed not in the original), and in the Judo Kyohan it is listed, as the book was published in Japanese the same year (approximately) in Japanese.

Mark

Brian Griffin
22nd October 2001, 10:45
Originally posted by MarkF
Two throws were dropped, or changed, replaced by kata guruma and sumigaeshi. Standardizations were not in place until 1906 or thereabouts.These were changes to nage no kata not changes to the gokyo. Aside from the wholesale revision of the gokyo in 1920, the only change I'm aware of was the addition of tsurikomigoshi around 1911.

So if that throw was not in the "original" gokyo, it is only because it hadn't been standardized and was added at a later date (if it were indeed not in the original), and in the Judo Kyohan it is listed, as the book was published in Japanese the same year (approximately) in Japanese.
If you'll take a closer look at Yokoyama's book, you'll see that tsuriotoshi only appears in a chart describing the classification of throws (hand, hip, etc.) with no further description.
Elsewhere, he lists techniques of nage no kata and the (old) gokyo, and describes each throw. Tsuriotoshi does not appear in either list.
You can also see both old and new gokyo no nagewaza listed on the Kodokan website.