weight training

[Budoken]

Question for those of you who weight train: what have you found to be the most productive way of doing so without getting overtrained? I'm having some difficulty with this - how do you lift weights on a regular basis, while going to train, where you are frequently made to do warmups/calisthenics that also place stress on the muscles? How do you manage to do both the excercises your martial training requires of you, and lifting weights, without rapidly becoming overtrained?

-Rob Dormer

[gmellis]

Well, I don't have the problem of overtraining since I can only train in my target art on Saturdays. In fact, that is the very reason I took up conditioning excercises. I was finding myself merely treading water by sitting at a desk all day during the weekday then trying to make gains in the dojo once a week. As for warm up I do 20 minutes on the treadmill, then start into stretching, and follow with my weight training program. While I hold to the one set theory, I am conditioning for muscular strength and endurance, so I end of doing anywhere from 20 to 50 reps (my system is that when I hit 50 reps i increase load and then work up to 50 again). When I hit the max on the machine (no time soon. hehe), I will work up to 100 reps. maybe even work in an aerobics program in after that since the movements can be similar to the bujutsu I do. Cheers

[Fred Stakem]

I guess that all depends on a lot. Such as how intense you
practice your martial art(the amount of endurance involved),
how often you practice martial arts, and what martial art(what
are the muscles you use most). Usually I have made the best
gains in a less intense martial art. I have read a lot of scientific
books trying to keep up with sports science, but it boils down
to a few common things.
If you do an intense martial art work out, you will feel your
muscle not contracting as hard the next day. You can sort of
get around this by doing things such as...not doing pushups a
couple of days before you do chest. But if you move most muscle
groups around in your martial art then you won't be as fresh.
You can overtrain and still make gains, but the will probably be
less than if you are fresh. I know overtraining is a popular word
these days, but you might have to do a little if you plan to do both
martial arts and weight lifting.

I usually don't do a big warm up....before I lift I give ample
opportunity for my muscles to get ready by stretching out. Too
much endurence exercise will tire you out before you lift. I
wouldn't recommend doing it unless you are training for an
endurance match. Try doing any endurance exercises after the
weight exercises if you are going to do any.

I train a six days a week, but a different muscle group each time.
You can get creative and find a way to work the muscles you need
the most by varying the order of which muscles you train. You can
also vary which muscles you train together on the same day.

If you are worried about overtaining check out some books on
stretching and yoga. It is an excellent way to become aware
of different parts of your body and injury recovery. People are
always astonished after they do some good yoga and realize
how out of touch they are with certain parts of their body.... simply because they don't use it sitting in a chair all day.

Fred Stakem

[Ginko]

Try keeping your reps to 5 or less. The case for low reps for martial artists is made by Pavel Tsasouline in his book, Power to the People. You can get it at: www.dragondoor.com or order it through Amazon.

In Budo,

Jay Setser

[Kimpatsu]

I do rep weights, not the Arnold Schwarzenegger power lifting, so I find no problem reconciling it with Shorinji Kempo training. I don't want (or need) to be a beefcake; just to have a reasonable level of fitness, as middle age creeps up on me... :laugh:

[ParadoxDime]

Ginko,
Heavy lifting with low reps is the formula for musceal building. Not strength training. It it will increase your strength some what, but that will mainly create larger musceals and better memory. If I'm not mistaken, Kimpatsu is attempting to make himself stronger, without getting.. " Beefcake " :D


:karatekid ~ Patrick Mefford ~ :karatekid

[Kimpatsu]

Dear ParadoxDime,
Better than I was before; Better, stronger, faster...
Pity I can't add smarter to the list :D
My basic purpose is increased general fitness, as Shorinji Kempo is good aerobic exercise: Brief bursts of manic activity followed by brief periods of rest.
Best,

[Ginko]

Dar Paradoxdime,

I beg to differ. Reps in the 1-5 range develope absolute strength, not sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Read Power to the People, & it will explain why high reps (over ten) are bad for strength building.

In Budo,

Ginko

[ParadoxDime]

Ginko,
Hmmmm. The New Encyclopedia of Modern Body Building and Weight lifting by Arnold Schwarzenegger says almost the opposite. Also, his recomindations are followed widely by people of all shapes and sizes.

I don't believe either one of us is wrong, There may just be more then 1 road to the desired goal :look:


:karatekid ~Patrick Mefford~ :karatekid

[littledragon]

Rob:

What are yor specific goals? Do you want to get bigger and stronger? Do you want to put on muscle? Do you want to improve power and speed without increasing size? What is your overall fitness level? How long have you been training martial arts? How long have you been lifting weights? What art do you practice? What is your "bodytype"?
There are all sorts of applications available to you once you know what your goals are (as I'm sure you do). I wouldn't worry so much about overtraining as long as you are getting good nutrition and proper rest. If you can share some more information about what you are looking for, I will gladly respond with some specifics.

Marianne Chubirka

[Ginko]

Paradoxdime,

The text that you refer to wasn't even written by Arnold. It is full of routines that couldn't possibly be effective for the average, non-steroid abusing trainee. Again, I refer you to Power to the People for scientific references on the subject.

In Budo,

Jay Setser

[Fred Stakem]

As far as reps goes I have seen people
champion both ways. I think it depends
on the muscle group. Muscle groups that
have short range of movement and are
not particularly large are easily work
with high repetitions. Because they are
small muscles and the movement is small
the work required to flex them repeatly is
not that large..I tend to think of
calves and forearms(grip) in this category.

I had a kendo instuctor who was the
proverbial skinny asian guy...not unhealthy
looking..just skinnier than us well fed
americans. His body wasn't very athletic
looking, but he had welformed forearms like I had
never seen before. The only other place
I had seen forarms like that were my
grandfather. My grandfather was a boxer,
but he owed his physic to a time when
blue collar labor really was backbreaking
work. He shoveled 20 tons of coal a day and
had the muscles to prove it. I also remember
EJ Harrison commenting on the strength
of the judo mans claves and neck. It
is not that weight lifters don't have these
muscles, but that on average the man doing
the heavy labor is stronger in them.

On the other hand I find lifting with
the primary muscles is much better done
with lower reps. The two problems
I have with high reps is 1)endurance
and 2)focus.

The first one is easy to
explain. Doing a lot of endurance exercise
will take away from your strength on each
lift usually making your workout not as
effective. If you try different routines, you
will feel the difference. Lower reps
usually makes you feel fresher for each
set.

The second problem is harder to explain. The
problem is that people will often not
push themselves hard enough at light weight.
And when they do push themselves hard, the race
through the reps sacrificing form. You can
cheat a little bit, but often times it is
a recipe for disaster. I myself have pulled
more muscles doing calestenics than lifting
weights. It could just be the idea of
lifting heavy reinforces the fact that form
is important. It is a mental thing.

All things being said I don't follow an
idea strictly. I listen to what my body is
telling me. On some days I feel I can't push
myself hard I will use a burnout set to
get me into it. There are better ways for
doing many things, but sometimes it is the variety
that makes the better way clearer.

As far as muscle and strength...you are right
they are not the same thing, but there is a strong
corelation between the two. Strength is the ability
to utilize the muscle properly. Problem is that I have
met too many people who use this to justify why
they are sooooo strong and weight lifters are
weak, muscle bound people who couldn't touch their
toes if they wanted to.

For a good book on strength training try the following:
Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning

There is also a good conditioning book out there by
Nebraska football team. Check out human kinetics. They
have a lot of good stuff.

Fred Stakem

[ParadoxDime]

The text that you refer to wasn't even written by Arnold. It is full of routines that couldn't possibly be effective for the average, non-steroid abusing trainee. Again, I refer you to Power to the People for scientific references on the subject


Ginko,
I attempted to be respectful and considerate of your reply. I find your reply to simply be immature, misinformed and grossly insulting to it's author. I suggest in the future you attempt to be a little more tactful and at least be educated on the subject.

Your comments were not even close describeing the book I speak. All the routines in it are fairly basic. I know of 6 people right off the top of my head, who took the books advice for beginers to more advanced and for even nutrition, all with better then expected results. I myself can even atest to this. So much for constructive conversation.

:mad: ~ Patrick Mefford ~ :mad:

[cindy]

just figured i'd chime in
my weight training is a daily activity. my goals are strength coordination and flexibility. the regimine i employ was learned through several years of physical therapy. it works for me i have yet to injure myself in my nearly ten years of training with weights.i have improved greatly in the time between when i began and where i am now. i employ yoga free weights and a nautilus. the most important thing i learned in physical therapy is to stir the soup so to speak, the need to vary ones focus from day to day and week to week which has already been mentioned several times. another issue is diet which has an enormous effect on the outcome of your physical effort not to mention the necessity of not having a full stomach and fairly empty bowels when you work out (gross but true)

:wave: