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Brad Hoffner
23rd October 2001, 21:25
Just wondering what people think of the aikido that Steven Seagal does? Does it seem like a "hard" style or "direct" style?

It seems to me that he uses alot of cutting or sword type movements with his hands where he intercepts a kick or punch by cutting it down rather than grabbing it or getting out of the way. He also seems to use a lot more irimi or entering type of techniques after he cuts the attack down rather than opening and turning(tenkan).

szczepan
24th October 2001, 02:58
You mean this :saw: kind of cutting? or that :shot: one?

:nono: that's only Hollywood tricks.... :burnup:

I saw last week one of his videos (from early Japanese days to early Tulku).....He doesn't have ANY style of aikido, only waving hands like a windmill...No body work, power from shoulders not from hips....a total disaster....I was very sorry to see all his stuff... :cry:

He took only very small uke, and did fancy techniques, cos he is big and heavy, so it worked....but the, when you see his students when they tryed to copy him ...it was hilarous :laugh:

Chris Li
24th October 2001, 04:11
Originally posted by szczepan
You mean this :saw: kind of cutting? or that :shot: one?

:nono: that's only Hollywood tricks.... :burnup:

I saw last week one of his videos (from early Japanese days to early Tulku).....He doesn't have ANY style of aikido, only waving hands like a windmill...No body work, power from shoulders not from hips....a total disaster....I was very sorry to see all his stuff... :cry:

He took only very small uke, and did fancy techniques, cos he is big and heavy, so it worked....but the, when you see his students when they tryed to copy him ...it was hilarous :laugh:

I've never seen Seagal in person, but a guy that I know, one of Kazuo Chiba's students and a senior guy at Aikikai hombu (IIRC, he was 4th dan at the time) mentioned to me that Seagal had thrown him harder than he had ever been thrown before (the guy in question was not small, either).

Best,

Chris

Aikieagle
24th October 2001, 07:28
Well, ive seen his video's, actual aikido practice video's past and present documentation. He may not look as "smooth" as some teachers, but he still does the job. I know that as practitioners we cant just settle for "does the job" level, we should strive for perfection of technique, but if we remember that this is a Budo art, a fighting or combat art, then he is doing quite well. He's showing people who think Aikido as a joke, and making them take it seriously. He's put alot of time into his training, so i dont think anyone has the right to take that away from him, especially those of us who dont have the same amount of training than he has. Could you imagine what it was like to be the ONLY american teaching aikido in japan? could you imagine the amount of fights he was in to prove himself worthy?? I know here we think with brute strenght, but in japan they have some incredible fighters who are not at all big. He proved himself there, and i dont think we should down grade his ability.
Besides, he is what? 7th dan? he cant go through the system like that and not be good. That would say that his teachers and the people who made the decision to promote him dont know what they are doing. And that would be a serious disrespect to the well accomplished aikidoists, im sure the late doshu had some say in his ranking, i wouldnt want to disrespect a teacher like that.
Dont get me wrong, they way he teaches i may not totally agree with, but his intensity and work is something i think everyone should note when watching him in actual Aikido mode. It is very interesting to watch.

Cesar

Johan Tibell
24th October 2001, 10:15
Perhaps the fact that he married the daughter of a high ranking sensei had something to do with the promotion and ownership of a Japanese dojo... I don't know... :D

MarkF
24th October 2001, 10:39
Or perhaps he is just good. I've found a trend in MA circles of people questioning those who are public figures, or famous otherwise, as seemingly having to prove one's self beyond the average Joe "Aikido," judo, katate, or even Koryu and Chinese arts, etc.

I've not seen his aikido videos, but from the MA genre of movies, his are a refreshing change from the other chop socky flicks.

I have little exposure to aikido, but a throw is a throw. Kote gaeshi, by any other name, is still the same thing, and from just seeing brief glimpses, he does throw people with more ease, and speed, than many judoka I know. He seems, when allowed, to move with fluidity, all with the curse of ego has fans have adorned him with.

Well that is my rant for the evening.

He does seem a tad young for such lofty heights, but I'm not about to question the aiki cops about it.;)

Mark

Johan Tibell
24th October 2001, 11:25
Since I haven’t personally trained with him I won't comment on his techniques. A couple of high ranking senseis supposedly turn their backs on him during one of his demonstration because they we're embarrassed because of what they saw. If it was because they thought his techniques were poor or if they just didn't agree to his approach to the techniques (i.e. linear) that I don't know.

This is my last comment on the subject since I won't offend anyone by breaking to BB etiquette by bringing up a "Martial artist X is/isn't any good." topic.

Best Regards,

Johan Tibell

szczepan
24th October 2001, 12:15
Originally posted by MarkF
Or perhaps he is just good. I've found a trend in MA circles of people questioning those who are public figures, or famous otherwise, as seemingly having to prove one's self beyond the average Joe "Aikido," judo, katate, or even Koryu and Chinese arts, etc.

I've not seen his aikido videos, but from the MA genre of movies, his are a refreshing change from the other chop socky flicks.

I have little exposure to aikido, but a throw is a throw. Kote gaeshi, by any other name, is still the same thing, and from just seeing brief glimpses, he does throw people with more ease, and speed, than many judoka I know. He seems, when allowed, to move with fluidity, all with the curse of ego has fans have adorned him with.

Well that is my rant for the evening.

He does seem a tad young for such lofty heights, but I'm not about to question the aiki cops about it.;)

Mark

Mark,

he has really poor technique. I believe he can't throw 5 kyu judoka with that. last seminar in Paris he enterend on the tatami in fancy chinese-style t-shirt and rose shoes...During 3 ppl "aikido randori" :laugh: with his personal ukes of course, he fall dawn and all ukes on him... :D After he was supposed to do a demo with famous french aikido teachers ..... he didn't come..... I understand him ROLF

Don't take hollywood films for reality, Mark....

Chris Li
24th October 2001, 13:03
Could you imagine what it was like to be the ONLY american teaching aikido in japan? could you imagine the amount of fights he was in to prove himself worthy?? I know here we think with brute strenght, but in japan they have some incredible fighters who are not at all big. He proved himself there, and i dont think we should down grade his ability.

Not related to his ability (or lack thereof), because I have no personal knowledge of that outside of the movies, but I always thought that he made too much of that "American teaching in Japan" thing. Personally, I wasn't teaching at the time that he was, but I was here when he was (just crossed paths, I think), and the atmosphere towards Americans practicing martial arts was not at all hostile. Further, there were alread noted American teachers prior to his appearance on the scene that don't tell the same kind of stories. FWIW, I've taught Aikido in Japan (on occasion), and it's really no different from teaching in the US - none of the Japanese folks even thought to consider it odd.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
24th October 2001, 13:09
Originally posted by Johan Tibell
Perhaps the fact that he married the daughter of a high ranking sensei had something to do with the promotion and ownership of a Japanese dojo... I don't know... :D

Hmm, might say the same thing about Doshu (ni-dai or san-dai). Or about Tokimune Takeda, Koichi Tohei's son, Gozo Shioda's son, Yasuo Kobayashi's son, or Morihiro Saito's son while we're at it. For that matter, both Minoru Mochizuki and Kiyoshi Nakamura were offered the chance to be Morihei Ueshiba's successor by marriage into the Ueshiba family.

That kind of thing is a long standing practice in Japan - nothing unusual about it. It also says little one way or the other about his ability.

Best,

Chris

dainippon99
25th October 2001, 04:06
first of all, sczcepans opinion maybe a little tainted. he seems to dislike seagal to a more than normal degree. and i think that there is some truth about him being to young, and the only teacher that was american in japan. chris, you might have been in japan at the same time, but he was teaching in japan at a very early time for american aikido. it might be more commonplace to see americans teaching judo or kendo, but at that point, aikido was still young in america, and i have no doubt that and american teaching aikido at that time would have to prove himself to retain most of his students. he married into an aikido family, and that is most likely why he was promoted. but his technique looks fine to me. i could be wrong, and i dont claim to be the seagal expert that sczcepan does.

ChrisNeal
25th October 2001, 05:59
I think that slamming your opponent to the ground looks effective, especially against a novice. I have seen and experinced a specific disicpline of training in toshu randori against Tomiki aikidokas who have trained under Shihan Geis. There ability to cancel out or counter techniques is remarkable because of the continuos slow, soft and precise training that is taught. Their ability to monitor pressure, strength and speed is amazing.
The disipline used is to train the aikidoka that the opponent is as technical astute or superior to yourself. There is a win win situation in the training not a win lose. There is a excellent book by Nick Lowery 6th dan called PRINCIPLES OF KATA & RANDORI. This book discusses the training dicipline of toshu randori and covers several exercises and drills for toshu randori. Also Clark Sensei of the Jiyushinkai Aikibudo Dojo has an excellent training tape that discusses his philosophy about toshu randori.

Best regards,
Chrisneal
Aikibudokan Dojo
Houston, TX

Mike Collins
25th October 2001, 15:59
I trained with Seagal Sensei at a seminar when I was pertty new to the art. I have a copy of a videotape taken that day. I was amazed at how well he moved, considering his size. I am 6'2or3" tall and at that time about a slender 250 lbs. He was significantly taller than I, and not any thinner.

I've watched and rewatched the video tape. As I get more experience, his Aikido becomes less awesome, but it still looks pretty good (For a fat white boy).

Szczepan, monkeys fall from trees. Go train with him if he ever gets off the couch and stops eating twinkies long enough to teach one again, I think you'll be surprised.

But, without question, Matsuoka sensei's Ukemi is still way more impressive and to me, magical than Seagal's Aikido.

Brad Hoffner
25th October 2001, 16:03
I have found this a very interesting thread. I hope no one thinks that I am saying Seagal's aikido is superior to any one else's aikido. I just enjoy his very direct style. He seems to use irimi alot more than what I have seen in other styles or other people's aikido. He also seems to use alot more deflections of kicks and strikes which I find fascinating because they are much different from the kind of blocks you see in Karate. Much more a feeling of finding the path of least resistance rather than a clashing block.

Seagal does use tenkan and opening and turning movements but it only seems like he uses this when the attack is very committed toward him and he can open and let them fly.

Thanks for all the responses.

Chris Li
25th October 2001, 23:57
Originally posted by Mike Collins
But, without question, Matsuoka sensei's Ukemi is still way more impressive and to me, magical than Seagal's Aikido.

I have to say, that watching Haruo Matsuoka's ukemi in Above the Law (Nico) when it first came out completely changed the way that I take uke from very hard falls. If nothing else, Seagal deserves credit for teaching him that.

On a side note, I noticed at a recent demonstration that Isoyama's uke's move in a very similar manner.

Best,

Chris