battlefield conditions ;o)

[charlesl]

I just wanted to talk around a bit with people about how they feel about training inside vs. training outside. The group I train with ALWAYS trains outside. We deal with uneven ground, small hills, wet grass, mud, rain, wind, humidity, cold (well, I mean it is Hawaii, so it's not really that cold, but for instance, today was somewhere in the low 70's, which is cold for me ;o), bugs, stepping on things, sun in your eyes, etc. Does anybody else out there have this kind of fun? We enjoy all sorts of mishaps, slippery weapons flying everywhere, falling on your but when striking, etc. It's great fun to go for a tsuki and have your foot slip forward an extra yard or so, impaling the poor bastard across from you.

I've only trained inside twice, with a different group up near Seattle. It felt downright wierd.

So how do people feel about this kind of thing? What's it like to train indoors a lot? What's it like switching back and forth? Am I missing something in my training by not training inside?

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI

[Jay Bell]

Hi Charles,

The Dojo that I train at trains outside more of the time then not. One night a week (out of two) and all seminars are done outdoors. I teach a Shibu and we also always train outside as well. When we do train inside at the Dojo, it always feels like something is missing.

[will szlemko]

Hi all,

We train outside during the summer and venture out for some short training during the winter. Alaskan winters are considerably more severe than Hawaii. Moderately low stances are best for ice. To high and you go down, to low and you go into splits. Interesting training to say the least. We also have been known to rent a pool and train in the pool.

will

[charlesl]

Will, dude, this pool thing has got me wondering. I mean, do you guys jump in the pool and do kata? Do you wear the gi/hakama? Does the water damage your weapons?

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI

[Tony Peters]

I'm guessing here that what he means that they use an empty pool during the "off season" I've seen pools used as training sites for Boxing.

[charlesl2]

Tony Peters wrote:
I'm guessing here that what he means that they use an empty pool during the "off season" I've seen pools used as training sites for Boxing.

oh. Well, that would be less interesting, so I'm hoping you're wrong. I also can't picture what the "on season" for a pool in AK would be like, unless it's indoors. I don't remember more than a handful of days each summer in Craig or Ketchikan where the weather was up in the 70's, and K-Hi's pool (indoors) was open year 'round. But then Southeast has milder weather.

BTW, when are you coming to practice? Are you an Linn (sp?) working out at all?

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI

[will szlemko]

Hi all,

No, the pool is full of water. We wear swimming suits, and I use a cheap jo (the 10-15 dollar variety) for this type of practice. During outsde training in the winter I usually wear thin cotton gloves, hands lose feeling too quickly otherwise, (partners tend to frown on this happening as a jo or bokken speeds towards them)

will

[Tony Peters]

Originally posted by charlesl2

BTW, when are you coming to practice? Are you an Linn (sp?) working out at all?

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI [/B]

I will try to be back this sunday, I've been rather busy as of late, lot's of time spent on the road or working weekends. I could end up going to Japan here again soon as well. I'm practicing when I can though mostly the Kihon and the 4 Kata's that I know (know being a relative term). Lynn (correct spelling) is up to her eyeballs in papers she's teaching at UH this semester so she's not likely to be up.

[allan]

Indoors/Outdoors

All of the keiko for my school happens indoors.
To alleviate the inadequacies of this I try to go outdoors when I practice on my own. To me this seems to be a little closer to "combat realism."

[charlesl]

Just wondering, anybody train indoors w/ not a lot of room? I always pictured hoso michi being practiced in the amount of space provided by a hallway. What do people think on how badly technique would breakdown if you didn't have a lot of room? Would it be better to just forget about the jo and go h2h?

On a side note, any SMR people train for jo vs. h2h? There's a lot of times where I think "ok, now if he were to just grab the end of my jo, what would I do?"

On another side note, what about just full on body checks. I mean, there are certain places in the kata where I feel like I could just take the other guy out by with a simple trip and slam, and places where I feel like the other guy could take me out the same way? Any opinions on that? But then, all humbleness aside, I'm pretty much a beginner. Probably my feelings about it don't count for much.

-Charles Lockhart

[Jack B]

Miyake sensei once used judo to demonstrate why you should not stand too close to uchitachi when doing kuritsuke. You should have either distance or control if you're inside range.

For jo vs. h2h, there are 5 jodori and 8 jo waza in Tomiki's Aikido goshin no kata (Koryu Dai San). Also Kaminoda sensei teaches a set of taihojutsu waza with jo that deal with grabs to the stick and a variety of arresting techniques. I do not think they are part of SMR proper.

Jack Bieler

[Yojimbo558]

Hi Charles,

I love mixing surfaces and elements when it comes to training. I train in Monterey, Ca. & my group varies everything from inside to outside. Outside we play with training in deep sand @ the beach & the hard pack, along with training on rocks, gravel, parks & assphault.

One of my favorite occasions was when I took some friends who were able to move their Jo's like a blur....They were from Kansas & had never seen the Pacific, so I took them to the beach & had them work out on the sand & rocks @ the beach. They were amazed at how much of their ability was lost from never having experienced training on anything but a mat at the dojo. They were also enchanted as about 15 seals, which are very curious swam in very close to the rocks to check out what was going on.

The biggest mistake I think people could make in any martial art is limiting yourself to the same surface, lighting & weather conditions. For it's experience in these variances that allow you to grow.

Just my thoughts,

Eric

[efb8th]

Hi, Charles.

If you are willing to give up orthodox grips, you can adapt your jo to a very compressed area. Use a bayonet grip, and space is a minimal problem in a normal sized hallway. Controlling the center of your jo shortens your attacks to extended punches and allows grappling and binding applications, should you go to the ground. The chokes are devastating!

Sorry about the heresy; just $.02 from an old judo & jujutsu guy.

Regards,

[J.C. Murphy]

So, a question for those of you who practice outdoors.

Do you wear shoes or not? Barefoot seems to be the "traditional Japanese" way; but I think that only applies indoors on mats to help keep them clean. Outdoors you should wear shoes that approximate what you wear in your everyday life.

P.S. I do not train in jodo, I am just looking for some thoughts.

[Tony Peters]

Originally posted by J.C. Murphy
So, a question for those of you who practice outdoors.

Do you wear shoes or not? Barefoot seems to be the "traditional Japanese" way; but I think that only applies indoors on mats to help keep them clean. Outdoors you should wear shoes that approximate what you wear in your everyday life.

P.S. I do not train in jodo, I am just looking for some thoughts.

I have practiced with Charles and I can say that excluding the New Years practice they always practice barefoot. It make it easier and helps maintain a good connection to the ground. Also when it rains the ooze of mud and wet grass between your toes is not something to be missed

[J.C. Murphy]

The original title of the thread is "Battlefield Conditions ;o)"

In that vein, I would think it inappropriate to train barefoot. I realize that the jo is not and never was a primary battlefield weapon; but would anyone choose to be on a battlefield w/o shoes?

I do realize that it is pleasant to walk on the grass w/o shoes and do so when I can (Colorado get's a little colder than Hawaii). But if the idea is to train more realistically, whatever that may mean to you, shouldn't your training gear more closely approximate your daily wear? (At least once in awhile)

[Tony Peters]

walked in Geta??? I have, the last time I was in Japan (about 2 weeks ago...I think). Honestly speaking barefoot or wearing shoes is a much easier prospect than the traditional footwear of Japan.

[charlesl]

I have walked in geta, and they are a pain. I'll say that I have never trained in them, and short of a challenge, never will. I have trained in slippers, which living and working in Hawaii I probable wear more than anything else, and it is a pain, particularly when it gets wet and your feet start sliding.

Er, are slippers called 'thongs' or something on the mainland? I get confused easy, and I've seen a few thongs here in Hawaii and they definitely weren't footwear.....

I gotta try that training in shoes thing, and take a look at the unorthodox grips proposed earlier. One of my training partners and I tend to play around a bit to see how things go, so prolly he'd be game for that.

Tony, are you going to the new year's practice this year? I wish I could go, but I'm stuck visiting my wife's family. So sad for me. Oh well, next year. I did get to visit the SMR jo dojo in Tokyo. It was pretty interesting. A few differences, but overall pretty much the same as what we do.

-Charles Lockhart
Shizuoka City

[Neil Hawkins]

Charles, you asked about Jo vs H2H and body slams. Well coming to SMR from a Jujutsu background I had similar thoughts but was shown very quickly that it is very difficult to grab or defend against the Jo without one of your own, or at least a Katana. I reckon I could pull it of against a relatively new practicioner, but the old guys can put you in a world of hurt! :)

As for body slamming, I tried that once too and my instructor just dropped the bottom of his Jo a fraction and allowed me to butt into it, never again! I restrict my practice to 'by the numbers' now.

Maybe one day, if I ever get good, I might start thinking those thoughts again. But that's years away!

Regards

Neil

[yamamatsuryu]

Interesting thread Gentlemen.
I've been quietly following this thread, but thought I'd throw something in.
Most of our training is done outside, and we do where shoes. We have also been barefoot (On occasion) and even worn zori and waraji (Darn those things were not fun). We haven’t tried Geta, and (Hopefully) won’t (They look like a pain-in-the-arse. Imagine performing waza in 6" heels! Not accurate, but just picture it)
Yojimbo558, Last time I tried the beach-thing, we didn’t have seals, per se, but a dead sea-lion washed up on shore (real windy weather, it got beat up on the jetty rocks south of Longbeach, Wa.
And Finally Neil,
Shame on you!! That’ll learn ya!
:laugh:

Jared Albrecht

[charlesl]

Neil, coming from jj, and working with jo, would you say that in order to avoid an unarmed person from grabbing your jo and causing you, uh, complications, you pretty much have to go in there with the jo and mess the guy up, or not go in at all? Er, I mean if you dick around and play footsie with your jo the other guy can grab it, but if you go in there and fix that bastard the unarmed guy doesn't have the opportunity to grab or otherwise void your attack?

As for body slams, generally I only want to body slam the guy with the sword, (uchi dachi?), and then only when I have his ass in a compromising position. I mean, to come in and tsuki a guy with your jo, while he's cutting down from jodan, I always want to keep going, and after I drive my jo through his spine I want to knock him down and drop all 230 pounds of me on his chest then maybe smash his teeth out with the jo.

People with knives make me really nervous. I blame this on our most senior student, a cop who's been training for, uh, I don't know, a really long time. Quote: 'The guys gotta knife, you gotta take care of that f**ker', meaning the guy, not the knife.

I always find it a bit amusing that when I'm the jo-guy (shidachi? I forget this stuff every 10 minutes or so), I feel pretty nervous facing a guy holding a giant razor blade, and have test anxiety to boot. But when I'm the sword-guy, I feel kinda sinister, like I'm the villain, and I'm gonna cut ya' as soon as you make a mistake, which I know you will. Kind of a 'bring it on, stick-boy' attitude. I'm obviously having too much fun ;o)

-Charles Lockhart
Shizuoka City

[Neil Hawkins]

Charles

My experience is limited, however my observations indicate that those who have trained many (many) years in Jo tend to be a lot more fluid and flexible. I tend to think in terms of the kihon, or motions from the kata, they however just move and strike from unexpected angles and directions.

Obviously you would not allow someone close enough to grab your weapon, regardless of the weapon. You maintain maai and if they act agressively, go on the attack. My only hope for getting your Jo off you is to either get in close and smother, thereby negating the effectivness of the weapon, or wait for you to over-commit, then extend and unbalance you. A good Jodoka will not allow that.

My (feebly inadequate!) attempts occured whilst I had a sword and we were close (say kuritsuke). I would let go the sword with one hand (which-ever was more appropriate) and attempt to unbalance, trap or free my sword hand to cut. It worked well with inexperienced people like myself, but the slightest change in tension against the jo (as I turned my wrist out) caused a strike.

In the instance of Kuritsuke just lifting the Jo up and back to strike the face/throat is sufficient.

As for body slamming the kata that lends itself to that (in my mind) is kasa no Shita, rather than step around to free the sword, I tried dropping the tsuka and stepping in to meet the pushing in Jo (I have to admit this came very close to working, the first time!) I tried a shoulder barge with my right shoulder and a tsuka-ate to the head. I did manage to unbalance my opponent, however the jo was lowered slightly and struck me painfully in the ribs which also unbalanced me, he then used the Jo to push himself away from me to its full length thus negating any advantage I had.

Anyway, I had enough to decide that I wouldn't think of such things any more, at least not whilst there's a proficient jodoka in from of me. :D

Regards

Neil