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Kimpatsu
30th October 2001, 06:01
Gassho to all.
I'm curious to know what the prevailing opinion is among kenshi about including randori in taikai. The BSKF always used to include it in the British Taikai until the late 1980s, when several accidents caused a rethink, and it's since been dropped from the taikai roster. Does anyone lament its passing, or do you think it's a good thing? I'm curious to know.
Kesshu,

colin linz
30th October 2001, 11:12
Tony,

We rarely have a structured randori component at our Taikai in Australia. I think that it would be good to have. Personally, I enjoy Randori, but not with all the protective gear that is worn these days. Randori is always fun for me, it’s good to just relax and forget about perfecting a waza, and let everything happen. It’s usually interesting to re-think it after. What worked well, how something that you did was not a technique as such but combined the principles of what you have learnt, or how your opponent escaped but you changed to another technique that worked. I think the main reason I like Randori is that unlike an Embu where everything is practised, and there is an expectation of the level of your performance, Randori is a just do it and see how it works thing.

Cheers
Colin Linz

Kimpatsu
30th October 2001, 14:04
Dear Colin,
Thank you for the prompt reply. The reason all the protective gear was introduced was because of a death at the all-Japan universities taikai, where a kenshi was struck in the head and died of a blood clot. The problem in the BSKF was that in one taikai, a kenshi lost a tooth, and another suffered a broken nose. I once suffered a concussion, because people go crazy. It seems to bring out the worst in them.
I'm interested to hear what other kenshi think, though.
Kesshu,

Gary Dolce
30th October 2001, 16:40
Tony,

There was a previous thread on this subject some time ago - you might want to check back into the archives to see what was said then. But it is a good subject to periodically re-open.

I would summarize my view as follows:

Randori as part of a regular practice within a Branch, practiced in the spirit of mutual improvement rather than competition, is a good thing.

Randori competition at a Taikai is a very bad thing. As you said, it brings out the worst in people - exactly the opposite of what should be happening at a Taikai.

I can't speak to the BSKF experience, but I saw enough poor behavior at the one randori competition I have seen to convince me that is a terrible idea that is contrary to our philosophy. A Shorinji Kempo teacher I greatly respect said recently that every death or serious injury that has occurred at this kind of event is a blot on what we stand for. Protective gear may cut down on the injuries, but it doesn't change the mindset.

colin linz
30th October 2001, 22:55
It’s interesting seeing the different concepts of randori. I have done Randori many times, but only once in the form of competition. That was at a Taikai, and was only done to demonstrate to everyone the scoring system, and the use of protective gear. Prior to this we didn’t have a unified policy on protective gear. This policy came about because of the incident Tony mentioned regarding the death. While I agree with these Saftey measures I preferred the earlier style of Randori, both for comfort and technical reasons.

Possibly why I like our Randori so much is that I have never had someone go wild at me, but then I have not done much competition Randori. Competition Randori holds little interest for me, we don’t even have it in Australia, but when done for mutual education it can be very informative. This is why I thought it could have a place in Taikai, but not as competition. I have never heard of a bad injury in Australia, I think the worst injury I have seen was to a young Japanese student, Aosaka Sensei hit him and he cut his lip on his teeth.

Regards
Colin Linz

Steve Williams
2nd November 2001, 00:33
We just this weekend had a Randori taikai and randori seminar......



All went very well (no injuries...... well no major ones anyway)

We took the decision to combine the competition with a seminar on the techniques we could use to improve randori, as opposed to a competition only........


All reports from kenshi so far indicate that it was a success, we hope to duplicate it next year.........

Chuck Munyon
4th November 2001, 21:58
In my VERY humble opinion, I think Randori is an extremely valuable training tool, both in the dojo and in competition. Randori in the dojo is "where the rubber hits the road." Techniques change radically when you use them on someone who is trying to hit you, and the strategies involved in a fight (i.e. setting up your opponent, choosing distancing, and especially TIMING) can be honed much more productively during Randori. As for competition, the excitement and nervousness that it generates create an excellent simulation of the emotions that one might experience in an actual situation, thus dramatically enhancing the practical value of one's training. And I would trade all of my protective gear for a judge who knows what he's doing and makes it VERY clear that lapses in control will not tolerated.
A frequent criticism (only slightly tangentially) is that tournament Randori is not "realistic," and this is true in the sense that lethal force is not being used (at least at not at any of the tournaments that I've been to!). But it does hone the ability to select very precise targets and hit them with very precise amounts of pressure, all the while evading or deflecting strkies. Sound like a useful ability to anyone else?
Note: It's very hard for me to write without a certain amount of sarcasm, but I also know that I am junior to most of the people here both in age and training, so please believe that I intend no lack of respect with my tone.

Chuck Munyon

luar
4th November 2001, 23:58
We spent last week doing Juho Randori and I was wondering if there was such a event at Taikai?

Kimpatsu
5th November 2001, 04:38
Dear Steve, Gassho.
That's a good idea; combining a randori competition with a much larger randori training seminar. After the accidents, the emphasis at BSKF taikai changed, and one year when Brixton organized the taikai, we had a randori demonstration for the visitors, but there was no actual competition. There's still randori during a normal training session, however.
BTW, Gary Dolce Sensei, before starting this thread, I checked back to the beginning on all threads in the SK forum, and couldn't find one on this issue, which is why I started this thread. Do you have the URL for me to check out the thread, please?
Kesshu.

Gary Dolce
5th November 2001, 17:52
Tony,

The previous discussion of randori competition started in November of last year. Here's the URL (not sure how well this works):

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2930&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

Sorry I didn't include it earlier!

Chuck,

I wouldn't have assumed that you were being sarcastic if you hadn't said as much. But I am not offended. No one is arguing that randori practice does not develop useful skills. The question is whether competitive randori (i.e., tournaments, winners and losers, etc.) is consistent with the philosophy that is at the core of what we practice. I won't repeat all the arguments both ways here - see the thread mentioned above for details. But a year after the previous conversation, I still feel as strongly about the subject as I did then.

Kimpatsu
5th November 2001, 22:41
Gary Dolce Sensei,
Gassho and thank you. The thread you sent me has certainly been interesting. It also explains why mine has received so few postings; it's all been said already.
Kesshu.

Gary Dolce
6th November 2001, 14:49
Tony,

Gassho and you're welcome! But please don't call me sensei - there are others here more senior to me and I prefer the informality of this forum. In fact, I don't use the title even in my own classes.

I'm glad you brought this topic up again - it's nice to hear new voices here. The Shorinji Kempo forum has been a little too quiet before you joined recently.

Gary

Kimpatsu
6th November 2001, 15:02
Dear Gary,

The Shorinji Kempo forum has been a little too quiet before you joined recently.
Are you suggesting I'm a loudmouth?
No, on second thoughts, don't answer that... :p
Seriously, though, I find the randori issue interesting. Before I became a Kenshi, I spent six months checking out everything available in south London, and I saw one class where the "sensei" (I use the term loosely) beat the **** out of one of his students. What did the student learn from this experience? How to take a beating gracefully? The instructor was just feeding his ego. And people wonder why I chose Shorinji Kempo...

sekisyuusai
8th November 2001, 22:04
I got the feeling that we should do "something" before getting randori. How can you put your houkei's skills into getting randori? When I saw many kenshi's randori(even black belt), I feel like "this is a kick boxing, karate, boxing, or what?" What is Shorinji kempo? Shorinji kempo has a really good and effective skills. So, I finally got back to shorinji kempo from other martial arts.(kick boxing and karate) I really can tell if you guys keep that kind of randori going, you guys really are easy to "lose" against kick boxer,karate-ka, and boxer. We should think about that. Some kenshis maybe say, " shorinji kempo doesn't compete with each other." I really agree with that. That point is the one which I really like, though. ............

By the way, I recommend how to practice before getting randori. I got this idea from "mamonkai-karate" which I joined once.
First, we separte to offence and defence.......like shorinji way.
Second, we choose one skill like jyun zuki, gyaku-zuki,etc.
Third, offender attacks to defender anytime.( both of them do not "step" like boxing........just "kamae" each other calmly.)

I can tell "defence" is really tougher that "offence".
After me doing shorinji, kick boxing, I tried to "defence" from mumonkai's "tsuki"(punch). I could responce when he moves. But, I can not block those punchs anything. I mean, you know what, I got all of his punch on my face.(I got "super-safe" on my head, though.)..............If you guys are interested in mumonkai karate, see that in Internet. I know that shourinji's honbu also bought mumonkai's all video. They also still studied about what they believe. I like that. And recently, honbu shows some skills which really close to mumonkai's one to K-magazine in Japan.

Anyway, that practice is really fun, too. Of course, you need some "super-safe" on your head.

Thank you.

Kimpatsu
9th November 2001, 07:29
Sekishusai (sic),

you guys really are easy to "lose" against kick boxer,karate-ka, and boxer.
Are you serious? Do you really think SK is that ineffective? I appreciate that English isn't your mother tongue, and your post was a little difficult to follow, but if I'm right, you're saying our technical application is useless. Do you really believe that? And on what grounds do you base this assertion? Inquiring minds want to know.

sekisyuusai
9th November 2001, 21:03
Hi, Kimpatsu-san. If SK is useless, I never get back to SK. As I told you, I got back to SK from Thai-kick boxing, shoot boxing, and full-contact karate. I saw many randori and I did that a lot.
And then, I saw some "honbu's" person's randori. They moved like kick boxer or boxer. I did not see any "uke" out of that VCR. They just did dukking(spell?)and swaying(spell?) a lot. I can tell boxer or kick boxer can do those moving more better. Where is Houkei's skill ? Where is "Uke"? You do not think so when you see your kenshi's randori? I can tell "not". Because I saw a lot of martial arts's taikai like SK, full contact karate, non-contact karate,kick boxing, boxing,etc. There was "no uke" in those taikai, "nothing". As I told you like new wave karate(mumonkai) tells that to martial artists in Japan by some magazine.(full-con tact karate, and K-magazine)And I know SK's Honbu bought mumonkai's videos to study. After that, I really can tell honbu put some momonkai's style in how to uke in real fight, how to practice before getting randori, etc. That means honbu admits mumonkai's skill. I was really happy with that.

I want to tell you some more before I go, I really want to be "strong" with SK. I really want every kenshis to be "strong" with SK. The SK's skills are perfect for me. Which martial arts is strongest..........I really don't care about that. I just want share my idea like how to practice before getting randori. I still really believe that figureing some "steps" of practice out 'till getting randori is really crucial matter for putting "houkei's skill into real fight. Hope you know we "skip" some practice before getting randori.

Thank you

Kimpatsu
10th November 2001, 01:52
Which video is this? Maybe it's in my library. I'd better check it out before I comment further. What's it called, please?

sekisyuusai
10th November 2001, 21:45
Hi, kimpatsu-san. One which I saw "honbu's randori" was 8mm film which someone taken. Not sold. But another one......the name of the video is "shorinji-kempo" maybe like 3,500 Japanese yen. This is new one, though. Maybe you watched that, right? As I told you, that "randori" is different compared to 8mm's film which did "unofficial". But, now honbu showed "ideal randori" to us by that new video. That randori style really close to "mumonkai-karate's one. I should explain about that karate, too. The founder of that karate is "Yoshimoto Togashi". You can buy those videos. Those are little expencive, though.

Thank you.

Sekisyuusai

colin linz
10th November 2001, 22:33
Sekisyuusai,

I’m not entirely sure that what you describe is new to Shorinji Kempo, of course it’s hard for me to be sure as I have not seen the video’s you describe.

In Australia ( and I would expect elsewhere ) we have always trained for Randori by starting simply and just using Tsuki or Geri, and as the students progress include more freedom. This does as you suggest, breaking a difficult skill into smaller and easier to learn skills, then building them up to a point where true Randori can be practised.

Regarding Uke, I’m once again not sure. 13 yrs ago when I first started training, I had a young guy from Busen living with me. He showed me many parred down uke for use in Randori. These Uke where so minimalised that they were hard to see, some where even executed within the Tsuki.

I’m not sure what you mean by facing each other calmly, and not stepping like boxing. I think possibly you mean the jumping up and down like boxers. I have seen this done quite allot, however I have also seen it not used. Personally I don’t like it, it is to easy to judge a time to attack. Once someone jumps they cant do much until they have their feet back on the ground. I think it comes down to personal style more than taught action.

Cheers
Colin

Kimpatsu
10th November 2001, 23:46
Dear Sekishusai (sic),
First: Please sign your posts with your full real name. Not your nickname. Thanks.
I think you mean the video produced by the BSKF, in association with the French Federation. If that's the one you mean, then yes, I have a copy of it myself.
I don't know about the 8 mm film, though. Perhaps Nicholas Cage could help? :p
Seriously, though, If you still have a copy of it, we could have it transferred to video for everybody to see. All such materials are welcome.

sekisyuusai
11th November 2001, 15:19
Hi, Kimpatsu-san. That new video is made by "honbu" with some Japanese company. The name of that company is "base ball magazine Sya". In that video, Some senseis coming from France and England who are Japanese are there, too. You can ask about that video to "honbu". I am sure you can get it.

By the way, I want say "thank you very much for replying me back each time." Because I felt like" maybe, nobody replys me back because of my funny English. But, if there is somebody who really loves SK,I certainly get reply back even I told something of the "demerit" of SK". We should debate a lot.....not just getting "cozy" relationship like"I-do-this-today-so feel-good"conversation by mail. I do not mean that was wrong.
I am a "I-want-to-debate-about-SK-because-I-believe-that-is-good-for-SK's-future"........this kind of person.

Thank you.

Katou Kenichi

sekisyuusai
11th November 2001, 15:38
Dear Colin-san,

Thank you very much for replying me back. I am also doing that kind of practice for randori. I want you to try something new for randori practice is: 1). Getting close more each other.(Chika-Maai) 2). Offender never do moving before attacking.(In means, ....stay calm.) 3). Defender also never try to move before response offenders'attack. And also, try not to do "sway-back" on your head.....just do "uke" to protect your head or body.
4) somebody time it like 1-2min. 5) offender attacks "anytime" within a given time with one skill which they decided before....
As I told you, mumonkai-karate is doing this practice a lot for a first step. That is really tough. I did a lot. But, I just did "uke"exactly 1 or 2 times out of over 500 times' practice.
Togashi yoshimoto sensei said, "Exactly Uke out of strong and real offencing is really tougher more than 1000times than doing offence". I really felt that myself out of that practice............
Why don't you try some with your kenshis?
And tell me about that later.

Thank you.

Katou Kenichi

Anders Pettersson
12th November 2001, 09:48
Gassho.

As for the video mentioned my guess is that Katou Kenichi means this one
http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/books_video/img/shorinjikempo_sono_gihou_to_oshie_small.jpg
It is called 小林寺拳法その技法と教え / Shorinji Kempo sono Gihou to Oshie (Shorinji Kempo its techniques and teachings) .

Here are some short info on that video (taken from the Swedish FEderation webpage:

ISBN: 458304044X
length: 37 (min)
published: 2000/08/01
price: 3 800 ¥

This video on
www.amazon.co.jp (http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/458304044X/qid=986124703/sr=1-23/249-7081638-0699523)

To Katou
As for this style of Karate "mumonkai-karate", do you have any URL with some info on it.

Kimpatsu
12th November 2001, 11:13
Thank you Anders Sensei.
I'm ordering the video right now.
Kesshu.

sekisyuusai
12th November 2001, 14:59
Gassyou,

Thank you very much for telling everybody about that Video. You are exactly right. Incidentally, I do not think mumonkai-karate has some information about them in English. As far as I know, He Yoshimoto Togashi is writting about "his theory" in "Full-contact Karate" every month in Japanese. And sometimes he comes out in "K-magazine"........... Or, maybe you can ask about that to "Honbu". I guess they know or they have some video on Mumonkai karate.

Thank you.

Katou kenichi

sekisyuusai
12th November 2001, 15:06
Gassyou again,

Here is address: http://www1.gateway.ne.jp/~mumonkai/

Everything in it are in Japanese, though. At least, you can see who Yoshimoto Togashi is.

Thank you.

Katou kouichi