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Jabonn
31st October 2001, 00:23
I have seen both spellings in text and have heard different clubs use the two terms. Which is correct? If both are correct then what is the difference in the two techiques?

Jabonn Flurry

Don Cunningham
31st October 2001, 04:46
The Japanese language is a complex and mysterious puzzle. While I've found some explanations for what appear to be inconsistencies, this is one which has eluded me as well. I have heard both in verbal reference, but typically see the "de ashi barai" in written text. I finally just put it down as one of those things I may never fully understand.

MarkF
31st October 2001, 07:24
According to the Kodokan Institute, it is Deashi-harai. But until I found judo on the Internet, and reading in different texts, Don is right and I've never really asked about it. I thought it was one of those personal decisions one has to make, and I've always spelled it out as does the Kodokan Judo Books over the years.

Back in my younger days, I thought they were two separate techniques one of which I hadn't learned yet, and hadn't yet begun to read of judo.

It does denote a sweep, though (E.G., Harai goshi = hip sweep).

Mark

Jabonn
31st October 2001, 14:07
Mark,

That is the way I had thought it was as well "Harai = Sweep" If its Harai-goshi, then why not de-ashi harai.

Are the characters of Barai and Harai written the same, then it becomes a question of pronunciation; or are the characters written differently from "harai-goshi" than "de-ashi-harai"


I went to - www.judoinfo.com to look up the Go Kyo, and found that they use the "De-ashi barai" on the Dai -Ikkyo. Then in the Dai-Nikyo the have used "Okuri-ashi-harai". These two sweeps are closer in relation than the hip sweep mentioned earlier.

Don and Mark thanks for the replies.

Jabonn Flurry

Don Cunningham
31st October 2001, 14:14
Whether harai or barai (as in de ashi barai or "forward foot sweep"), the exact same kanji is used when written in Japanese. It is not unusual for kanji to have multiple pronounciations or romanji spellings when used in different contexts or in various combinations with other kanji. For example, the kanji for yawara ("flexibility" or "softness") is pronounced as ju when combined with the kanji for do ("way") as in judo. In fact, the kanji for do is pronounced as michi ("road" or "path") when used by itself.

The rules for such pronounciation differences, though, has always been a bit too elusive for my comprehension. Why there are two different spellings and pronounciations for the same kanji in the exact same descriptive term is enough to make one a bit crazy. Some things just have to be taken on faith, I guess. :idea:

It may be due to different rules for romanization of certain kanji at different times. This is why jujutsu, jujitsu, and jui-jitsu are often used for the same kanji. At different times, there have been different romanization standards for converting kanji to English characters. I don't know this for certain and it doesn't explain why this isn't an issue for harai goshi. I've never seen or heard a hip sweep referred to as barai goshi, for example.

Graham Wild
31st October 2001, 17:08
I don't know if I am at all qualified to comment but it is like K and G, if used in the middle of a 'word' it is B and if at the beginning it is H, it makes it sound softer. For example there are Koshi Waza and there is Ogoshi Nage. Also there is Harai Goshi and it probably should De Ashi Barai. I don't think the difference in 'harshness' of the sounds is really all that much, that is compared to difference between K and G, which is probably why some don't change the sound. Just my slightly educated bit of information.

Enfield
31st October 2001, 18:26
Okay, I'm not a judoka, but I can answer this. It's just the "voicing" og the h. It's quite common for unvoiced consonants (ch, f, h, k, s, sh, t, and ts in Japanese) at the beginnings of words to become voiced (becoming j, b/p, b/p, g, z, j, d, and z respectively) when combined with another word. There are lots of examples, and this is just one of them.

ran+tori = randori
keiko + ki = keikogi
ichi + hon = ippon
etc.

(These are the only judo examples I can think of.)

Don Cunningham
31st October 2001, 20:59
And now you know why learning Japanese is sometimes like repeatedly slamming your head against a wall. It feels so good when you stop.:laugh:

CEB
1st November 2001, 00:15
Where you are at also makes a difference. An example is in the east japanese say arigato. Out west they say orakini ( I have not idea how the romanji should be represented.) The dilectic differences from region to region blow me away especially when I consider the entire country is only about the size of California.

Have a good day.

Ed Boyd

MarkF
1st November 2001, 06:53
Shime-waza and juji-jime.

I've got the picture, and I can't imagine learning the language well enough to know the difference.

http://judoinfo.com was founded by a guy with a heavy German accent which may account for that type of difference.:)

Mark

Brian Griffin
2nd November 2001, 09:12
Originally posted by MarkF
[b]http://judoinfo.com was founded by a guy with a heavy German accent which may account for that type of difference.:)
I've only known Neil for about ten years or so...but he has hardly any accent now ;)

MarkF
3rd November 2001, 09:39
Brian,
I knew Neil when he was a kid, but he isn't the founder of the Judo Information site; Jeurgen Wahl is. As of the latest incarnation of JudoInfo.com, no mention of credit is given. There are two possible reasons for that. One, Juergen hates "credit" or bragging rights concerning his life, particularly as it relates to his schooling in judo (or what he says his original teachers in Germany called it, jiu jitsu). Second, it may simply be that Neil doesn't deem it necessary to give Wahl-sensei this credit since Wahl took ill a couple of years ago, and cannot partcipate on the mat. At any rate, it isn't important, but Juergen Wahl founded Encino Judo, currently, or at last communication was still President and founder, and he also founded the website, now in the possession of Neil Ohlenkamp. I probably shouldn't have brought it up at all, but this is the truth, however one takes it.

At any rate, Encino Judo Club, Inc. was the precursor to JudoInfo back in the late sixties, something I know a little about since I was there (around 1970-1972), working out at my own dojo and at Wahl-sensei's dojo at the Encino Recreation Center, and helping out when I could. He was the only senior teacher there, and he seemd to need some help as the dojo was becoming popular, particularly with the young adults and children.

Mark

Brian Griffin
3rd November 2001, 12:38
Originally posted by MarkF
Brian,
I knew Neil when he was a kid, but he isn't the founder of the Judo Information site; Jeurgen Wahl is.Mr Wahl founded the Encino Judo Club.
The Judo Information Site (http://www.judoinfo.com) is a website created & maintained by Neil Ohlenkamp.
I remember when Neil started it. He began learning HTML to create a website for the local Social Security Administration office (which he manages).
As a way to try out coding & design ideas, he created a website for judo, hosted at a local non-profit ISP (www.rain.org). Creation, design, & maintenance of the site have been done entirely by Neil & his son. They've also created websites for other groups, such as their church, and the Encino Judo Club (http://www.judoinfo.com/ejc.htm).

As of the latest incarnation of JudoInfo.com, no mention of credit is given.Follow the link to the Encino Judo Club (which you'll notice is hosted on the JudoInfo.com site) and you'll read:
Juergen Wahl, 5th degree black belt--President and Founder of the Encino Judo Club, former German national champion
...along with an e-mail link for Mr. Wahl, himself (mailto:JWSECAL@aol.com).

Juergen Wahl founded Encino JudoAbsolutely correct.

and he also founded the website, now in the possession of Neil Ohlenkamp.You are confusing a website with a Judo club. They're two entirely different things.

... Encino Judo Club, Inc. was the precursor to JudoInfo back in the late sixties The World Wide Web did not even exist in the 1960s.

dakotajudo
3rd November 2001, 14:39
Back to the original topic, the difference between harai and barai, or koshi or goshi, or gaeshi or kaeshi, or tori and dori, is much like the difference between a or an in English usage. "a" precedes words that start with a consonant sound, and "an precedes words that start with a vowel sound.

Similarly, words at the start of a phrase are typically voiced (h,k,t), while words that follow other words are typically voiceless (b,g,d).

It's also important to note that some of the romanizations of Japanese sounds are misleading. The "t" sound is not vocalized the same as the English "t" - IIRC the tongue is touched to the front teeth and not the front palate. This is why tori and dori are the same word - the "d" is a softer vocalization of the Japanese "t".

I won't even begin to describe the problems I had trying to say "Seiryoku zenyo" to a Japanese friend. Simple enough to say I massacred the "r" sound.

MarkF
4th November 2001, 10:38
Brian,
Believe me or not, but this is getting old. Wahl founded the judo information site. Neil was the web designer later, in all but the latest issued, now called JudoInfo.com, there is no credit to Mr. Wahl for founding the Judo Information Site. There was.

Yes, Wahl founded Encinco Judo. I was there. I've known Juergen Wahl since he was a kyu grade, but never asked which. I was only fourteen when I met him. I later wrote an article about Encino Judo and the Judo Information Site. Wahl gave me some information of how he come up with it, but otherwise he didn't want the bragging rights.

As I said before, Wahl founded the website, originally on a non-profit server rain.org. If you go to the old address it directs you to the present location. It was when Neil was the outright owner of the site when he omitted the credit.

Frankly, I could care less now, and am beginning to understand why Juergen didn't want to reveal much about it.

Unless the others wish to continue the thread, I am going to close it. It has nothing to do with anything.

Jack B
5th November 2001, 22:52
Hi JB!

The pronunciation thing is similar to a liaison in French, where the sound changes when it is in the middle of a word.

Nuttin to it!

Jack Bieler
"On Topic For Once"

Jabonn
6th November 2001, 01:49
I think you hit the nail on the head, Jack.

My main question was "was there just a different way to spell or pronounciate the words or was there two seperate throws?"

de-ashi-barai = de-ashi-harai

I think my question has been answered.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Jabonn Flurry

Brian Griffin
6th November 2001, 11:04
Originally posted by MarkF
Wahl founded the website, originally on a non-profit server rain.org. If you go to the old address it directs you to the present location. It was when Neil was the outright owner of the site when he omitted the credit.The old URL for what was then titled A Judo Information Site (http://www.rain.org/~ssa/techjudo.htm) was "http://www.rain.org/~ssa/techjudo.htm"
The ~ssa stands for "Social Security Administration" -- Neil's employer.
Try leaving off the "/techjudo.htm" at the end of the old URL & see where it takes you (http://www.rain.org/~ssa/).
While you're there, notice the other websites Neil has designed.
Then go to the current page for the Santa Barbara Social Security office (http://www.ssa.gov/sf/961/) & read the following:

We were the home of the SSA Regional Electronic Bulletin Board System which was created here in 1991. We have now been offering this web site since July 1995 to make general information more easily accessible to internet users. This was the first local Social Security web page in the nation and in the first two years 50,000 visitors viewed this page.
This page was created by Neil Ohlenkamp, Field Office Manager in Santa Barbara, California in his quest to provide world class service to the local community....Hmmmmmm....1995
.....the same year the Judo Information Site debuted at rain.org
Quite a coincidence.

Oh...I almost forgot -- the first (1995) version of the Santa Barbara Social Security office webpage was at --you guessed it-- "www.rain.org/~ssa"
Did I mention that RAIN is a small, Santa Barbara-based non-profit ISP? In 1995 it was virtually unavailable outside of Santa Barbara County.

Ben Reinhardt
6th November 2001, 15:08
Originally posted by CEB
Where you are at also makes a difference. An example is in the east japanese say arigato. Out west they say orakini ( I have not idea how the romanji should be represented.) The dilectic differences from region to region blow me away especially when I consider the entire country is only about the size of California.

Have a good day.

Ed Boyd

And different cities and regions of Japan have their own unique pronunciations and dialects as well. I've been told that Kyushuu (the southernmost island) has dialects that are nearly incomprehensible.

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
6th November 2001, 15:14
The "ha" and "ba" sounds are related in Japanese. The hiragana symbol for "ba" is the same as the one for "ha" except that the
"ba" sound has a diacritical mark that look kind of like a slanted quote " mark.

I was told by native Japanese speakers that one uses "barai" for De Ashi Barai and Okuri Ashi Barai, Harai for Harai Goshi, Harai Makikomi, etc. Similar rule to the "ka" and "ga" sounds in Japanese.

I'm taking beginning Japanese, and Don is right, it's like banging your head against the wall. Without my years of Judo training, I would not be able to enjoy it so much !

Everything is backwards in Japanese versus say, English. This is an important clue to your Judo training.

Ben Reinhardt

Don Cunningham
6th November 2001, 16:54
It's an interesting comment, but I have heard many who are learning English as a second language state how hard it is to understand all the grammatical rules. Personally, I don't understand their issues, since things like subject-verb agreement come so easily to me... :D

P.S.

This is a sarcastic comment intended as humor for all those who have struggled with the twisted and unusual grammatical constructions in English.

CEB
6th November 2001, 23:48
My father when stationed in Korea while with 7th division worked with a major who was ROK intelligence officer. He told Dad that he spoke 7 languages and the hardest for him to learn was English. Dad said the English homonyms gave him problems. I'm with Don, English aint not that bad.

Ed Boyd

Enfield
7th November 2001, 00:57
My Japanese friends complain about the spelling rules. I don't see the problem when the bulk of English vocabulary comes from four different sources, all with different spelling rules. (Native Germanic, French, Latin, and Greek.)

Jack B
7th November 2001, 16:39
Originally posted by Jabonn
My main question was "was there just a different way to spell or pronounciate the words or was there two seperate throws?"
Jabonn Flurry
Sometimes I wonder if a lot of judo throws ought to be different throws or just "variations". For instance, Uchimata is different on the inside of the right leg, left leg and up the middle (ouch!) but it doesn't have different names. There's only really about a half dozen distinctly types of throws after all (if you look at similarities more than differences).

Jack Bieler