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Jutsuka
1st November 2001, 04:10
I have trained Ju-jutsu since I was ten. Living in Sundsvall, Sweden I didn't have any choice in what system I should train. So I now have 1:dan in the Swedish Ju-jutsu Kai system.

Now, the system I train was developed by Hans Greger in the 70:s making it a very young system. The person that had one of the biggest influences on this system was Raymond Cocatre.

Raymond Cocatre used to be a student of Minoru Mochizuki in the Yoseikan Budo system.

According to a website Minoru Mochizuki has dan degrees in aikido (10th dan Meijin 1979), jujutsu (9th dan), judo (8th dan), iaijutsu (8th dan), kendo (5th dan) and karate(5th dan).

He has trained Judo, Aikijujutsu, Karate, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, Gyokushin-ryu jujutsu, Iaijutsu, Kendo, Yari, Kito-ryu and many other martial arts.

So the Swedish Ju-jutsu Kai system seems to be based on techniques from several different martial arts and schools of traditional Ju-jutsu.

Is there any possibilty of determining how much of the swedish system or wich techniques or katas come from wich system?

Two traditional katas that are trained in the swedish Ju-jutsu Kai are Goshin Jutsu No Kata and Kime No Kata, both of wich are trained in Kodokan Judo. Do these Katas come from a traditional Ju-jutsu system?

Thomas Persson

MarkF
1st November 2001, 07:42
Kodokan Goshin Jutsu is a very modern system only recently (1958) was it formalized, but contains some techniques of kime no kata.
Kime no kata is also considered a modern form, but this goes back to the beginings of Kodokan Judo so it may be called traditional.

Koshiki no kata of the Kodokan is the oldest kata and is also called the kitoryu no kata, and though refined by Kano Jigoro, it originally was done while wearing armor.

When you say "He has trained..." do you refer to Mochizuki or the founder of your system?

Welcome!

Mark

johan smits
1st November 2001, 08:16
Hello Thomas,

Yours is an interesting question. Most, if not all jujutsu as practised today in Europe is based on Kodokan Judo. In the United Kingdom from the early 1900's till maybe WWII or slightly thereafter, there was influence of the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, Ryoi Shinto Ryu and Yoshin Ryu. In Germany it was mostly Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, Kano Ryu (Kodokan Judo) and maybe to some extent Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu ( the latter is not certain).
As far as I know, no complete system of koryu jujutsu has ever been transmitted to Europe, what was trained were mostly selfdefense applications. Any influence from koryu jujutsu on modern systems of jujutsu in Europe is indirect. Jujutsu teachers or organizations in Europe claiming links with koryu should be looked upon with reservations.
I know of only two or three people in the whole of Europe who are part of a koryu and jujutsu is in those cases a part of the curriculum.

Kime no kata, as I have been told is based mainly on technigues from the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where) that Kime no kata comes from Sosuihitsu Ryu. It's an interesting subject, I hope some more comes out of it.

Best Regards,


Johan Smits

Jutsuka
1st November 2001, 08:53
First off, thank you for your answers. It is interesting to try to discover the roots of what you practice. Unfortunately I belive that the only way I can truly do so is to train Koryu Ju-jutsu and compare and that, alas, I'm not able to do. Yet...

Hans Greger, the founder of the Swedish Ju-jutsu Kai, does not make claims to have any direct links with Koryu. He has trained Judo, Aikido, Karate and Cocatre Ju-jutsu. He is (or at least was) chairman of the European Ju-jitsu Union and the International Ju-jitsu Federations technical commiteé. I'm just stating this so no shadow will fall upon him or this organisation because of a misunderstanding.

To answer your question Mark. When I said "he has trained" I was refering to Mochizuki.

Ours system is not a complete Koryu system, that much is clear. The Swedish Ju-jutsu Kai has been adapted to modern swedish laws and has therefore no killing techniques, no kobudo techniques, and several other parts of the traditional Ju-jutsu systems curricilum are missing.

I think it is safe to assume that both katas I mentioned before where adapted from Kodokan Judo rather than from a Koryu Ju-jutsu. I do however belive that we have quite a few "original" Ju-jutsu techniques from several different older styles in our system since our Atemi-waza, Kanzetsu-waza and Katame-waza are quite extensive.

Does anyone have any information on Jaques Rigolet, Carl Marten or Gerhard Gosen. They were active in Sweden in the fifties and sixties and all had black belts in both Judo and Ju-jutsu. Unfortantly I don't know wich Ju-jutsu system they trained. It would be interesting to know.

Thomas Persson

Fredrik Blom
1st November 2001, 09:03
Without claiming to know all about it, I'd say that most of the thinking in Swedish Ju-jutsu kai comes from (or is inspired by) the teachings of Curt Durewall. Hans Greger's ju-jutsu takes of from there and a lot of the techniques are very similar afaik (I have been practising Swedish Ju-jutsu kai for ~16 years, but have only very limited knowledge of Curt Durewall and the ju-jutsu he teach).
There are a lot of influences from Raymond Cocatre, but I think that these are not as "deep" as the earlier influences. Atemi waza and tsuki- and keriwaza is IMHO (and some other I have spoken with) what mainly sets Hans Greger's ju-jutsu apart from the teachings of Curt Durewall (at least on an "outer" level).

As mentioned, there are not many "legal" koryu systems taught in Sweden or Europe, but they do exist. However the bigger part of what is practised here is (as mentioned) jud-based self defense...

/Fredrik