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Jeff Hamacher
2nd November 2001, 07:07
dear Okinawan Karate folk,

by way of introduction, i'm an aikido student with an injured/post-surgery knee who has therefore been avoiding aikido class for quite some time. my MA training at present is essentially ZNKR/SMR jodo, and while i love it, a planned move to the frozen wasteland of my birth otherwise known as "Canada" may strip me of the opportunity to continue jo training until such time as i can get back to Japan (i'm aware of some jo groups in Canada, but not necessarily where i want to live). i'm looking for non-knee-threatening options, and since i have it on good authority (read: Meik Skoss) that Okinawan Karate is a great art to study, i figure this would be a good place to go for ideas.

i think my subject line covers it all, but to clarify: What kinds of technical differences exist between the various ryuha of Okinawan Karate? i'm not trying to encourage a "my school is better than your school" hissy-fit-style flame war; the thing i would find most useful is a thumbnail sketch of Uechi, Goju, Shorin, and Isshin schools (as well as any subdivisions of those schools) according to the aspects of Okinawan Karate training that they emphasize. for example:

basic fitness/flexibility/strength training or "warm-ups"
specific techniques: punches, kicks, joint locks, blocks, pressure points, take-downs, throws
training methods: kata, pairs/solo, kumite/sparring

i will plead total and utter ignorance of karate at this point, so you're going to have to hold my hand through some of your responses, but don't feel obligated to write an essay. i have a pretty strong grasp of martial arts training in general, so that will probably save you some time. thanks in advance for whatever information you can offer; i'm looking forward to hearing from you!

PS Doug Dalton: happy to be the interloper in yet another forum under your moderation, sir.:D

Doug Daulton
6th November 2001, 23:30
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher ... Doug Dalton: happy to be the interloper in yet another forum under your moderation, sir.:DJeff,

Thanks for throwing a meatball across home plate. This question should be easy to knock out of the park ... not! ;)   Bad baseball analogies aside, you ask a difficult question. ...
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher ... the thing i would find most useful is a thumbnail sketch of Uechi, Goju, Shorin, and Isshin schools (as well as any subdivisions of those schools) according to the aspects of Okinawan Karate training that they emphasize. for example:<ul><li>"warm-ups" or basic fitness/flexibility/strength training <li>specific techniques: punches, kicks, joint locks, blocks, pressure points, take-downs, throws<li>training methods: kata, pairs/solo, kumite/sparring</ul>Let me suggest that each respondent simply describe the okinawan art(s) in which they train, at least initially. Let's stick to the outline Jeff provides above. Once we have that baseline, let's open it up to comparisons. Does that sound fair?

I'll be happy to describe Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu karate and Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai. However, I am quite swamped with work this evening, so look for my reply later in the week. If someone else wants to describe one or both of these arts beforehand, please feel free (hint, hint Mr. Vengel and Mr. Seer :)).

Regards,

kusanku
8th November 2001, 05:54
Doug gives subtle hints to myself and Mister Cyr.

Okay, let's see, Matsubayashi ryu, warmups can be anything from minimal to exhaustive , depending on teacher and school.Ours tended to be all around warmups but not exhausting, if that helps.:-)

Then there are foundation excercises involving the snapping of joints including the knees, actually designed to strengthen the muscles around them, and so forth, but these might not be the best thing for our man from Canada.

Pretty thorough basic workout, including about eight or nine types of basic standing and stepping front, side and crescent kicks.Jump front and side kicks can also be seen later.

Having said this, the art is mostly striking oriented with about ninety percent hand and arm techniques. What kicks are done are however quite well drilled to precision as are all the basics, about one hundred in number.The applications can invoilve jointlocking and throwing but mainly rely on precision and combination striking, blocking, punching and kicking.

Katas, well, these are eighteen or nineteen, depending what school of Matsubayashi, in number, fairly magnificent they are.

They do use higher natural stances but also drop into some pretty low ones, I'd be careful of knees here.Ask doctor about this.

If the knee can be kind of taken easy on, this style may help build the muscles etc. around it up, but sure don't want to go to fast or hard first.

That aside, Matsubayashi ryu is a fine art.Speed, fluidity, flexibilty, and footwork with natural stances and techniques thrown from where you happen to be, make this system excellent for self defense, as its first reflex is to protect oneself as one moves to an angle relative to an attacker that puts you in good position as it takes you out of his effective range and even out of his line of sight.

Hope that helps.Many Matsubayashiryu people do no tournaments or free sparring, but those who do have often become national champions.I believe this is due to the speed, shorter stancres and fluid shifting of body angles, giving them a certain advantage as long as they take time to learn the rules.

The art however, is excellent for self defense and fitess, if done carefully, into advanced age in many cases.

The kata training emphasized in Matsubayashi Ryu is of such a nature that applications become evident from the power delivery system utilized, in other words, form plus correct body mechanics pretty much spells application.

The style is one that emphasize swift and speedy movements, light and fluidly done, but has tremendous potential for power inherent in those deceptively high stances and light seeming movement.

It is a vast art, yet simple enough at beginning.
Hope this helps some,
regards,

Fred Stakem
8th November 2001, 17:18
I didn't practice karate long enough to call myself an expert,
but most people I have met would recommend Mark Bishop's
book on karate. He desribes each of the different ryu in a
casual, but informative way. He tried to give each ryu wether
small or large an ample desription. If you haven't read his
book, it would be the best place to start.

Fred Stakem

Jeff Hamacher
9th November 2001, 00:36
thanks very much for your responses, John and Fred. i'm looking forward to hearing more from others, too.

as for the knee injury, John, i don't think it's the kind of thing that would be affected by "joint snapping", as you put it, or even the low stances that you describe. the real problem is bending the knee very deeply and then applying lateral or twisting force. knee-walking and certain types of falls in aikido are almost surely what brought it on. the muscles and tendons around both my knees are fine, so perhaps the type of physical training that you describe would help rather than harm.

as an additional note, i checked out some of the video samples available at the Shinjinbukan website. some of Onaga-sensei's demonstrations of Shorin-ryu included an interesting take-down (similar to what aikido people would call "karami-nage"), and there were also a couple of other instructors demonstrating take-downs using pressure on the leg or arm. any insights on these techniques?

kusanku
9th November 2001, 04:35
It used to be at an advanced level only, that certain locking, throwing and point attack applications, principles and techniques were taught in Shorin ryu and other Okinawan karate styles.

But these days, that is pretty much an open secret, as long as you have an instructor such as Onaga-san, or others, who know the ways to do that, called in Okinawa, in general, Ti or Hand.

Are these related to Aikido, Jiujitsu or even Chinese chin na, in some way or ways?

Well, possibly, as contact between all these arts historically has occurred and on Okinawa.

But is there an indigenous Okinawa approach to these type movements and techniques? yes, there, too.Influenced by and influencing Okinawan Sumo, called tegumi, and Okinawa folk dancing, one style of which is actually said to be a type of karate,traditional indigenous Okinawan cultural arts have resulted in a definite identity which must be regarded as Okinawan, and a flavor to other arts imported from China and Japan, on the one hand Chugoku Kempo, or Chinese boxing, and on the other Japanese samurai koryu bujutsu such as the Jigen Ryu combat arts, both sword and unarmed and probably other weapons too.

Since the progenitors of Okinawan karate were of the peichin or bushi( warrior) class, and higher social classes,it would be inevitable that exposure to all or at least, many of these arts, would occur, if not in fact solid training in all of them.Matsumura, progenitor of Shorin Ryu, was a Bushi,and a very highly ranked one, a teacher to and bodyguard to the Emperor of Okinawa, and licensed in Jigen Ryu martial arts as well as a master of Shorin ryu, the art he named after the Shaolin Temple he is said to have visited and trained at, as he visited Japan on diplomatic missions and was taught the Jigen Ryu arts.

It is therefore certain that he was familiar and proficient with all these influences and all of them infuse the art he created from those he himself had been taught.Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese, plus Polynesian and Indonesian, influences would have molded the arts of Okinawa, as well as later cross pollination with Chinese internal arts of Taiji, Pakua and Hsing Yi, making Okinawan karate a much subtler art, and more substantial, than it may at first seem.

Generally all Okinawans of the eighteen hundreds, and many of the twentieth century, had grown up wrestling tegumi, and so grappling was a kind of foundation, as judo is in Japan.

Karate joint locking and throwing waza therefore, tend to be more subtle in actual; usage, than the more strength oriented ones often seen in wrestling.Those are or were, considered to be already known, as though an American would be assumed to already know, say, baseball and football basics, before being taught soccer or Aussie football.

Taking an art, one must try at least to understand its cultural context.

There are in fact, many many types of locking , throwing, and nerve techniques used in Okinawan karate, but they have been traditionally regarded as secondary to the punches, strikes, kicks,and blocks, as they work off of them.Instead of using atemi to set a technique up.,in Okinawan karate a technique of locking or restraint can be used to hold the opponent for a strike to vital poits.This has not been well understood by some.

Since for most modern self defense, it is not necessary to do a finishing strike, and could land you in prison, maybe on death row, it hasn't been greatly emphasized, and some stunning techniques, restraining holds, and locking pins, have been shown, and that is fine and good.

In my own karate, my personal karate, thre things are stressed; interception or uke waza( receiving the opponent's attack);evasion or footwork and body turning and blending with the direction of the attack to put oneself in an advantageous and the opponent in a disadvantageous, position; and unbalancing to take the opponent's ability to harm you, away.

These three components , especially when used in conjunction with one another, serve to protect you while rendering the opponent unable to harm you.Mastery of these three important elements of Okinawan karate, make the rest of it, gravy.Call it Okinawan Aiki if you will.:DIt isn't really a secret, its what makes the rest of it work.

Get the arms and hands and legs in between you and the attack, move to an angle which takes all the opponent's weapons away, make contact and unbalance, and the rest, is whatever you want it to be.:-)

Failing that however, Okinawan karate trains one to neutralize the attacker in a most expeditious if unfortunate manner.:-)This is through the use of certain anatomical weapons to certain anatomical weak points, and quickly, and with much power.

These arts , are quite pragmatic.My own take on why the advanced stuff, is advanced? Its harder to make it work in a real meal deal.:DOne punch or one kick, on the other hand, will often do the job.These are the artillery, the shotgun waza of Okinawan karate, and they are refined to a sharp and precise level.But they can do great damage, and so must be used with caution.The ethical premise of karate, 'karate ni sente nashi' , rendered as there is no advantage to a first attack in karate, is I believe meant to convey two messages, one technical, one moral;

The technical message is, that in self defense, one is reacting to an incoming attacker, so one does not need to reach out for him, as he will open his weak points to your counter when he attacks.The moral message, shown in all Okinawan Kata beginning with what at least,looks liek a defensive technique or block(looks can be deceptive, however) is simply this:

If you wish to be an ethical human being, one should always consider ways to defend oneself without harming ones attacker any more than necessary.One may then, wish to concentrate on mastering the science and art of blocking, using both soft and hard blocks.

Seeing that a soft parry can unbalance and or turn an opponent, thus off balancing them and rendering them open to counters, one masters these as lead ins to the throwing and locking waza, and seeing that a hard block or strike to the opponent's incoming limbs, no matter how dimly one may grasp principles of kyusho jutsu, or atemi waza, can discourage a further attack and may even break that limb, blocking is to be regarded as the first line of defense.

In actual usage however, it may be one has to punch, strike or kick.this 'blocks' the attacker's entire attack.

In other words, it is for defensive use.But if necessary, an attack may need to become the defense against an already launched or impending attack.

Hope that helps..

Fred Stakem
9th November 2001, 06:39
Most people tend to split okinawan karate up into two main
branches. Naha-te(goju, uechi) and shuri-te(shorin). There are lots of variations and some styles that are mixtures of the old naha-te and shuri-te. To be honest, okinawan karate is not as wide spread as most people think....most of the schools that advertise as karate are really korean or more modern creations.
Goju and shorin are two of the more popular forms taught so
that is probably what you will run into. They tend to group
similiar style together based on the core forms taught in the
style. For instance some of the forms in uechi are in goju.

I did some goju in college
that was more japanese, but I have seen enough shorin to be able to give a somewhat educated response.

for starters....here are the basic generalizations

goju(naha-te)-round movement of hands and feet, a lot of deep
horse stances, strength training with tradition devices,
an emphasis on breathing and other 'internal' ideas through
the forms and most noticably in the kata sanchin

shorin(shuri-te)-more angular movements, higher more
natural stances, not as much emphasis on weights and
the 'internal'

But these are just generalizations. I have met some shorin
guys who do lots of strength training with traditional
devices....the big difference is in the kata. Even a beginer
with no karate experience will be able to pick out a
goju kata from a shorin kata after one day at a tournament.

The post by kusanku is a great background on karate, but I have
a few gripes.

to be a type of karate,traditional indigenous Okinawan cultural arts have resulted in a definite identity which must be regarded as Okinawan, and a flavor to other arts imported from China and Japan, on the one hand Chugoku Kempo, or Chinese boxing, and on the other Japanese samurai koryu bujutsu

Sort of...Morio Higaonna has done research tracing the kata of
goju to chinese boxing. The pracitioners of okinawan goju claim
to have not changed the kata that were brought from china and
it seems from Higaonna's research that is to be the case. I have
practice and seen chinese boxing as well and have noticed
some of the similarities to shaolin. So, as far as goju is concerned
in my opinion the link to chinese boxing is dominant. The only
thing that strikes me as strange is goju is the love of the
corkscrew punch which may be more okinawan. As far as
shorin ryu is concerned, I haven't seen anyone do extensive
research linking it directly to chinese boxing. That would be
something interesting to read about.

Influenced by and influencing Okinawan Sumo, called tegumi, and Okinawa folk dancing

Still trying to figure out the link to okinawan folk dance. In
Bishop's book he alludes to the fact there is a link. I am
not sure. Recently at the okinawan world tournament
here in atlanta they had some okinawan folk dancers give
a demonstration. I watched and was clueless to what he saw.
Was it the same type of folk dance?? I don't know, but it
would be interesting if someone wrote something up on this....
that would be something interesting to see if they do another
budo symposion.

Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese, plus Polynesian and Indonesian, influences would have molded the arts of Okinawa, as well as later cross pollination with Chinese internal arts of Taiji, Pakua and Hsing Yi,

I have heard of people talking about links to the chinese internal
arts. It is a nice idea, just like it would be nice to link aikido to
the chinese internal arts but simply put..it is not true.I think this comes about because of some of the breathing drills in goju
are called 'internal'. But breathing drills are used in lots of martial arts and that is not the hallmark of the internal.If you were to look at all three of the internal arts, you would see little in common with karate. Karate looks a lot more like shaolin than the internal arts.


The best place to check out different karate would be at a
tournament where you can see different styles at the same time.
Otherwise you might just have to go on what you read..
the best authors for okinawan karate are Bishop, McCarthy,
Higaonna, and Nagamine(I forget how you spell it).

Fred Stakem

kusanku
9th November 2001, 21:38
Hi Fred-

I am glad that you know the real truth of Okinawan karate. Don't believe everything you read in books.

Also, the footwork in Matsubayashi ryu shorin is very similar to that done in the William Ch'en Tai Chi Ch'uan.Goju contains the Pa Kuan single and double palm changes, and the Pinan katas contain some Hsing Yi techniques.

Shaolin however, contains many techniques not seen in karate, while Taichi forms resemble karate done in slow motion.Contrasting Taichi to Shaolin, Taichi contains only part of shaolin, which is then applied with Taoist theory.Karate as shorin ryu, somehow contains a lot of those same parts, but not mucvh that sholin contains.

There are four at least, styles of Okinawan folk dancing, only one of which resembles and is supposed to be, a style of karate.

Goju Ryu is altered much from its original Chinese form, closed fist sanchin is one example, flat fist usage another.Even Uechi ryu was Okinawanized, save for one style, called Zankai, originally taught as learend by Kanbun Uechi on China.

All Okinawan karate tends to be culturally assimilated and Okinawanized.

Shorin ryu is really a soft or soft hard style, saying there is no connection with internal styles is not true, is not true.Practicing with a Pa Kua expert, doing a hand change to neurtralize his, he asked if I did Okinawan karate, I said yes, he said, Uh Oh.

As I said, in Okinawan karate, there is more there than meets either the eye, or the knowledge of those who merely dabble.

The best way to find out how to plumb the true depths of karate, an Okinawan art, is to take either Goju, shorin, Kempo, Uechi ryu, Shito ryu, or Kojo ryu, for examples, and learn an entire system's worth.

You may be surprised to find in Okinawan styles, techniques not found in Japanese or Korean styles of karate,, but found in Chinese internal arts, such as rollback, incorporated in shorin ryu knife hand receiving, for instance.

Now-as for Goju.Corkscrew punch exists in most Chinese styles, and is from China, but is usually done with different fiust formations except for beginners.

Second-goju apps as passed on, can be from China, or from Japan, or from Okinawa, or from all three, Its really hard to say. Some are from China, but the Book Bubishi, ostensibly from China, contasins a grewat many such apps, applicable to both Goju and shorin kata. Did the book come from China, Okinawa, or both? Don't know. Ask Victor Smith, he knows more on this than I do.

Is Goju all Chinese? No. Miyagi may have invented most of the katas himself, it is said Higaonna Kanryo only taught four, sanchin, seisan, sanseiryu and supariinpei.Miyagi certainly invented tensho, supposedly from the six ji hands of whitte crane.Miyagi also certainly invented katas gekisai dai no ichhi and ni.he also invented the kihon workout for goju, the idea for which he got from Itosu, of shorin.he also invented the excercises, which he learned in China studying chi gong. It does seem , at least the way they were passed down, that the hard predominates too much.Yagi Meitoku however does these softly.

Thus, the statements I made, stand.

Shorin ryu appears to bear some relation to a Chinese boxing system of Northern Shaolin called Luohan Ch'uan.But it, too, was altered greatly in transition to Okinawa. Shorin appears to bear some similarities also, to Hsing Yi and Tai Chi, but only if seen in its seite or natural hand forms.Most never see this, or if they do, don't know what they are looking at. A hsing yi practitioner from Mainland China did his stuff, I did mine, movement was identica, he said so.

What more can I say? The distinction of naha te, shuri te and tomari te, is apparently an artificial one, as most styles have elements of all thre types , of kata, originally. Separation into separate styles occured later.

Basically, styles were katas, and schools started after a teacher who taught one or many students his katas, died. Since many studied from more than one teacher, many schools did many styles. To'on Ryu, for instance, does Higaonna, White Crane, and Itosu Shorin katas, as one system.Kempop also harmonizes Naha, Shuri and Tomari kata into one school.All realte to Chinese boxing, Okinawan arts, and Japanese arts, one way or another.All are Okinawan.

That is all I meant, 'Regards, keep on researching,

Victor
10th November 2001, 03:03
John,

With respect to you, I'm not sure I'm any further along than you understanding the source of the Bubishi.

The theories I'm aware of are 1) It derived directly from China 2) it was prepared by the Okinawan Chinese community 3) it was solely of Okinawna derivation.

Regardless of source, it was first shown to the Martial Public in Mabuni Kenwa's 2nd book in 1934, and came from Itosu's copy.

There are roughly two versions of the book (with somewhat different texts) but as it was hand copied other variances exist.

The book is roughly a Shaolin style student's notebook, with much space given to healing arts, where and when to attack, and techniques to use.

Many of those techniques can be found throughout Okinawan kata, but outside of modern interpretation, it is unclear which came first, Okinawa's kata or the Bubishi.

Whatever material was used from it in Okinawa, has been kept close to the vest. In recent years Patrick McCarthy (Australia now), George Alexander and Ken Penland (USA) have provided different English translations. R.Habersetzer in France has also written a text as a commentary on using the Bubishi in karate.

It is difficult to know where its material has been used in modern times, too. In large part it may be more a curiosity in todays world, but for those who want to take the time, it's techniques are real and work (abet with practice).

Another aspect to check out is how these techniques look with the Chinese Arts. The execution is quite different from the Okinawan ones normally shown.

But I'm still studying myself.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

BTW, www.FightingArts.com is publishing the 2nd article by me on the Bubishi next week (Shameless plug):toast:

Fred Stakem
10th November 2001, 03:03
Sorry Jeff, if you are going to talk about karate it seems that
it always comes back to roots and chinese boxing pops up.
Like most things in life there are more unknowns than knowns.
Since that is not what you were looking for, I won't continue
on with that dicussion but I stick to my word. (Smith's books
are still the best authority on the internal) If you are really
interested, since you have practice aikido, you might be able to
find some of Wang Suchin old students in japan.

I don't hold any allegance to goju so I don't want stear you
in that direction by any means. As far as the accusation
that the goju kata's weren't from china is dubious. He is correct in
saying that three kata were created by miyagi, but they are
very simple and you can readily tell the difference between the
the old chinese and newer okinawan......and it doesn't take
twenty years to figure that out..it may take twenty years to
perfect technique but not to see blatant differences. I don't
kowtow to anyone, but I trust what Higoanna wrote.

Does the hard dominate in goju? I would say the hard
dominates in karate....is that bad...depends...the old chinese
saying was that the shaolin(hard) boxer went from hard
to soft the more he practiced while the internal(soft)
boxer went from soft to hard the more he practiced...
I will let you decide on that one.

As far as chinese boxing having the corkscrew punch, it
is true and I didn't deny that. But the corkscrew punch takes
second place to the standing fist in the orthodox chinese boxing
from the north. Mr. Smith states this clearly.

Fred Stakem

Jeff Hamacher
13th November 2001, 05:19
gentlemen (i haven't seen any female posters, sorry),

lots of food for thought here, no doubt about it. perhaps the historical content is getting a little heavier than i expected, but it's still useful. i'm also giving consideration to training in t'ai chi so the discussion of chinese internal arts as well as karate and their relationship is in fact more valuable than just karate alone. my interest in t'ai chi may well win out in the end.

i don't want to stopper up the discussions, but in terms of my original request, i would be happy to here more about technical differences between the schools. of course, the comments about different kata, as well as certain overall distinctions ("hard" vs. "soft" styles) haven't escaped my attention. is it a question of a greater number of similiarities than differences? i'll try to dig up some of the book suggestions and get a little reading time in, although these days just about the last thing i need is more books cluttering up my apartment! i can read japanese; are than any good overview sources in that language? i know i'll dig up lots at the local library, but i suspect that most will be about japanese karate or full-contact/competition fighting as opposed to okinawan karate.

outta time for now, but keep posting as the spirit moves you.

Doug Daulton
13th November 2001, 05:41
... but work hasn't let up on me yet.

There are several good books (or so I am told) in Japanese. I can stumble through conversational Japanese fairly well, but written ... well, that's another story. I do have the names of the texts though in one of my bibliographies (friends translated the references I used). I'll dig those up and include them in my post.

By the way ... the quick answer re: Okinawan karate is "it all good" (well most of it). ;)

Regards,

6th December 2001, 04:20
Kusanku,
I couldn't agree with you more! Your replies are on point! Nothing is singular, and I think your ideas about Okinawan Karate are extremely logical.

As far as Goju is concerned, I would have to say that (at least in its current incarnation) it is more of a "body-conditioning" art than a martial science. That's just my observation though. I'm probably totally wrong.

I would definitely agree with Kunsanku on his definition of Shorin Ryu as a soft or soft-hard style. Initially, when the student is raw and often uncoordinated mentally and physically, it appears to be extremely rigid and linear. As the student progresses and learns to relax, and understand the art(s) and himself/herself better, the movements soften and tendon strength tends to replace muscular strength. Through proper Qikung or Kigong training (vehicle=kata) power (tendons awakening, use of proper biomechanics and angles), use of space, determined fluid movement, technique and application become integrated and harmonized. Karate practiced correctly should be as easy for the 77 year old master as it is for a 30 year old.

Doug: Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Have a great rest of the week, you all...

Bryan Seer

red_fists
6th December 2001, 04:57
Hi Jeff.

Sorry, no input about Karate here.

If you are interested in "Wang Suchin" TCC I can ask at the School in Shibuya if they have any schools/Instructors up in Canada where you live.

Also if you come down toTokyo over the X-Mas/New Year period drop me a line, maybe we can get together for a chat or a light workout.

Rob Alvelais
7th December 2001, 17:00
Originally posted by Fred Stakem



Sort of...Morio Higaonna has done research tracing the kata of
goju to chinese boxing. The pracitioners of okinawan goju claim
to have not changed the kata that were brought from china and
it seems from Higaonna's research that is to be the case. I have
practice and seen chinese boxing as well and have noticed
some of the similarities to shaolin. So, as far as goju is concerned
in my opinion the link to chinese boxing is dominant. The only
thing that strikes me as strange is goju is the love of the
corkscrew punch which may be more okinawan.
Fred Stakem


Many, many Chinese systems use the corkscrew punch. Hsing I Chuan, for example uses both the vertical fist and full twist punch (corkscrew) in their element "wood" and the form "Horse". Ura Zuki is featured prominently in this style. While at my Hsing- I class, I observed other classmates practicing forms from the other Chinese systems that my Sifu was teaching, namely Shaolin. (I'm not sure whether it was northern or southern, because I didn't care. I was interested in Hsing-I and Tai Chi and I still don't give much of a hoot about the others, my plate was/is ull. YMMV) Anyway, what I saw was people doing forms that utilized both the corkscrew and the vertical fist punch.

Rob

Rob Alvelais
7th December 2001, 17:06
Originally posted by Fred Stakem



Sort of...Morio Higaonna has done research tracing the kata of
goju to chinese boxing. The pracitioners of okinawan goju claim
to have not changed the kata that were brought from china and
it seems from Higaonna's research that is to be the case. I have
practice and seen chinese boxing as well and have noticed
some of the similarities to shaolin. So, as far as goju is concerned
in my opinion the link to chinese boxing is dominant. The only
thing that strikes me as strange is goju is the love of the
corkscrew punch which may be more okinawan.
Fred Stakem


Many, many Chinese systems use the corkscrew punch. Hsing I Chuan, for example uses both the vertical fist and full twist punch (corkscrew) in their element "wood" and the form "Horse". Ura Zuki is featured prominently in this style. While at my Hsing- I class, I observed other classmates practicing forms from the other Chinese systems that my Sifu was teaching, namely Shaolin. (I'm not sure whether it was northern or southern, because I didn't care. I was interested in Hsing-I and Tai Chi and I still don't give much of a hoot about the others, my plate was/is ull. YMMV) Anyway, what I saw was people doing forms that utilized both the corkscrew and the vertical fist punch.

Rob

kusanku
9th December 2001, 21:11
This is absolutely true, Long Fist, Wu Shu, Northern Styles, all use Corkscrew Punch, so does Phoenix Eye, and many other styles of Southern Kung Fu, and they use it as a primary delivery system. This is where the Okinawans got the corkscrew punch, imo.

Neither it or makiwaras were unique to Okinawa, these exist in Southern Chinese Kung Fu, at least.

The problem with gethering most of ones information from some books by Western authors and some Okinawan ones, is you get one side of the story, There are other sides to be told.

Higaonna's teacher by the way, has a different version of history of Goju, than Higaonna gives, though of the latter's skill, there is no doubt. I mention this not to slander but to inform.

If doing research, one can not merely say, 'I believe this author,', and give no reason why.

One must take into account all available information. Rob has done so.I am here to make the point, he is not the only one.

Victor and Bryan as well.And, what Doug said, as far as Okinawan styles, it's all good.Heard that somewhere, can't recall where.:-)

Anyhow, corkscrew punch is very Chinese. In fact, in Indonesian Kuontao, a Hakka Chinese Southern Shaolin Tiger Style, corkscrew punch was our primary punch.

What differentiates Okinawan styles from Chinese boxing, imo, is the way in which the Okinawan styles can use weapons kata as unarmed and vice versa. In Chinese systems, the weapons forms are done distinct from empty hand forms, and not used mutatis mutandis, although they could be if desired.They just don't, usually.

Regards