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Jon S.
2nd November 2001, 20:54
Hi,

I was hoping that someone could tell me some information about the Kokikai style of Aikido. I found their web site, and understand that the founder of this particular style was Shuji Maruyama, but I was hoping to learn more about what styles he studied that influenced its development. Also, what do people consider to be characteristics, including strengths and weaknesses, of Kokikai Aikido? I'd be grateful for any information that anyone could provide me with.

Jon Small

:)

sanskara
2nd November 2001, 21:26
Well, my information is that Shuji Maruyama was once a high-ranking chief instructor in the Ki no Kenkyukai (not to be confused with Koretoshi Maruyama.) Anyway, the unofficial rumor is that he was passed up for a promotion to a significant political position within the Ki Society in favor of someone else (presumably, with less experience.) He was understandably upset, left the Ki Society, and started his own organization, the Kokikai. Anyway, I've heard some describe that the Kokikai is based off of Tohei's principles of Shin Shin Toitsu, but with a more martial and technical emphasis.
Unfortunately, I've been unable to verify this last bit of info, as the Kokikai people I've had the pleasure to train with were not necessarily any more martial or more "effective" than run-of-the-mill Ki Society types. However, it is important to mention that Maruyama did split from Tohei's organization back at a time when there was more emphasis put on technique, than I find currently in the Ki no Kenkyukai--so in that regard, some of the "marketing" statements made by Kokikai members may indeed hold some truth.
Of course, if you talk to some in the Aiki community, the very affiliation of the Kokikai with the Ki no Kenkyukai makes it a style less centered around the martial application of Aikido technique. In the end, you'll have to be the judge of not only that, but whether or not the organization and the Dojo you'd be training in would meet your needs as a student.

Regards,
James Bostwick

Jon S.
3rd November 2001, 00:20
Thanks for the reply, I'm starting to get it sorted out now. However, my ignorance of Aikido in general is great, so I'm not sure about a few things. It seems to be a given that the Shin Shin Toitsu style places less of an emphasis on the technical and martial aspects of technique. Does this mean that techniques are actually forgotten and lost, or that the practitioners have become sloppy in their application over the years?

What I've read seems to indicate that Kokikai Aikido is a very soft style - does this mean that they put an exclusive emphasis on getting in harmony with the opponent? Do they involve strikes at all?

In terms of technique, what different features might distinguish a Kokikai Aikidoka from say an Aikikai Aikidoka?

Also, does the Kokikai style get involved with weapons training, and if so, to what extent?

I would truly appreciate it if someone would be kind enough to share their thoughts and answers. Also, any further information about Shuji Maruyama would be helpful.

Thanks,

Jon Small

:)

sanskara
3rd November 2001, 09:18
It seems to be a given that the Shin Shin Toitsu style places less of an emphasis on the technical and martial aspects of technique. Does this mean that techniques are actually forgotten and lost, or that the practitioners have become sloppy in their application over the years?

Generally speaking, neither. The truth is that Koichi Tohei is less concerned with physical movement, in comparison to other styles, and more concerned with how the mind functions in conjunction with that movement. In other words, in his own words actually, 'the mind moves the body'; so Shin Shin Toitsu focuses on how changing the direction of the mind can affect changes in the technique of the body. To say that Ki Society Aikido is less concerned with martial effectiveness is in fact correct, at least in the some respects, but within the organization itself, it is implied that mastery of Shin Shin Toitsu (unification of mind and body) is directly related to martial efficiency, as well as the streamling of other more prominent aspects of life in general. For what it's worth, I have found this to be true in my training with them.


What I've read seems to indicate that Kokikai Aikido is a very soft style - does this mean that they put an exclusive emphasis on getting in harmony with the opponent? Do they involve strikes at all?

'Softer' technique, whatever we decide that is, does not necessarily mean a more philosophical approach. It might mean, for example, that a given style concentrates much more on efficient movement, with as little collision with an opponent's power as possible; then again, it could mean almost anything. You must go and see for yourself. Strikes in both Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido and some other styles do not figure prominently in the curriculum. But here again, there is often strong implication that atemi is always there if you need it. I believe the position of many so-called 'softer' styles of Aikido is that in the Dojo you have the opportunity to really work on more advanced and elusive ways of throwing an opponent (ie. utilizing rythm and relaxed natural movements over leverage and atemi, per say.) For this reason, it is usually taught that atemi is important, but that in the Dojo, one should not rely on it as a crutch to smooth over weak places in technique.


In terms of technique, what different features might distinguish a Kokikai Aikidoka from say an Aikikai Aikidoka?

Although, some generalizations may be made (by those with direct experience) about a specific style like Kokikai, Aikikai is not a style of Aikido, but is in fact a governing organization preciding over many different Shihan with many different methodologies of teaching and training.


Also, does the Kokikai style get involved with weapons training, and if so, to what extent?

As an offshoot of the Ki no Kenkyukai, it should contain at least two Jo and two Bokken kata; it might also contain more weapons training as well. This is, of course, in addition to the usual jodori, tantodori, and bokkentori techniques found in most Aikido schools.

Regards,
James Bostwick

Jon S.
3rd November 2001, 23:09
James,

You've been most helpful. Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Best regards,

Jon Small

-B-
5th November 2001, 00:58
I learned Kokikai style for about a year and actually attended one of the camps that Maruyama hosted. I loved the style, but then moved out of the area.

I would characterize it as softer than almost any other style of Aikido that I have studied or seen. By softer, I mean that there is a heavy emphasis on performing techniques with little or no muscle and keeping the body relaxed. Maruyama constantly refines his techniques to reduce the effort needed to apply them. Therefore his technique seems to be in a constant state of evolution.

It was during my time with Kokikai Aikido that I began to appreciate the power of a properly applied "soft" technique performed with "Ki" rather than muscle.

Ultimately you need to try for yourself to see whether it's right for you. Perhaps if you indicate what you are looking for (and what experience you have) members may be able to provide some additional guidance. Whether the characteristics of a particular style are deemed strong or weak often depends on the expectations/perspective of the person doing the evaluation.

Regards,
Brian Crowley

Jon S.
5th November 2001, 02:18
Brian,

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like the Kokikai style definately emphasizes the proper execution of technique. To fill you in, I've practiced traditional Jujutsu for many years. There is a Kokikai Aikido teacher who is running a 6 week seminar near my home, and if there is enough interest he may start regular classes. Always a student, I was considering taking the class. I have a basic familiarity with Aikido, and have an understanding of many of the techniques used due to my Jujutsu study. What I'm looking for is an opportunity to learn new techniques and variations or improvements of familiar techniques, as well as more about the history and philosophy of the art. Though I'm open to anything, I don't particularly want to spend the majority of class discussing ki and practicing ki development exercises. I think ki is of great importance and it's development should be given attention, but to do so excessively during class, and neglect practicing technique is not for me (at least not till I'm a bit older). I get the impression that some schools do this. Not knowing enough about Aikido to understand the differences in the styles, I've been digging around on websites and posting a couple of questions. The program is being run through the local school system so I wanted to be sure I knew what I was getting into before I put down the money. Sounds like practicing the Kokikai style would be good experience - I'm particularly encouraged by your words about how they emphasize performing techniques with little or no muscle (though probably a characteristic of most, if not all, styles of Aikido, it's good to hear that it is emphasized). To me, excellent technique requires very little effort. Classes start next week so I'm looking foward to attending. Thanks again for your insight.

Jon Small

-B-
5th November 2001, 03:26
Jon,

Based on your last post, I think you would enjoy the style. I guess a lot will depend on the instructor and how he deals with the challenges of a 6 week class (which will probably include a variety of skill levels). I hope he has an assistant.

The majority of our classes were spent on technique. The class also spent a little more time on (non-competitive) 'randori' - even in earlier belts - than many aikido schools I have been in. This randori involves uke being attacked by nage(s) repeatedly for a period of time.

Even the exercises that were not particulary technique oriented had some great benefits aside from "development of ki" -ie. there were some great drills that develped certain characteristics associated with ki and also provided a good aerobic work out while developing ukemi skills - like rolling.

Hope the class works out for you.

Brian

sanskara
5th November 2001, 22:03
Hi Brian,
I don't know if you're familiar at all with the Ki no Kenkyukai, but if so, could you maybe comment on what you perceive to be some of the overt differences found in the Kokikai, when compared to its roots in Tohei's organization? Having never actually been in a Kokikai Dojo, I would be very interested in hearing your reply.

Regards,
James Bostwick

-B-
5th November 2001, 23:36
Hi James,

I don't think I've ever been in a Dojo that was still affiliated with Tohei's organization. The closest I have probably come is watching several classes in the Shin-Budo Kai (Sensei Imaizumi) in Manhattan about a year ago. The Shin-Budo Kai spent several classes per week on weapons. We rarely did any weapons work in my Kokikai class. However, this difference may be more of a reflection on the preferences of the instructors (and the fact that the Kokikai class could only meet 2 days a week). I don't really know for sure.

Because of their similarities, it's hard for me to remember too many specific differences after watching only a couple classes a year ago. Both styles had "ki principals" that were pretty similar. Both classes were technique oriented.

Here are a couple areas that may be examples of technical differences, but you will know better:

It is rare in Kokai to have the feet more than shoulder width apart - even when performing techniques like Shihonage.

Large break-falls are pretty much non-existant in Kokikai. For example, the Kotegash is performed by bringing Uke's hand behind him & taking his balance.

Hope this is somewhat helpful.

Brian

sanskara
6th November 2001, 21:24
Thanks for the info.

--James

Jon S.
7th November 2001, 02:23
Thanks again for the input Brian. I think you're right, I probably will enjoy it. Sounds like it will compliment my training well.

Jon Small

Pavel Rott
7th November 2001, 05:45
Jon,
between your first and last message 5 days have passed. Ample opportunity to go to the dojo and check out the art yourself, see whether it is "ultra" soft, whether it involves weapons or strikes, etc., especially since answers to your questions will very widely depending on the dojo you are talking about.

Jon S.
8th November 2001, 02:48
Pavel Rott

I guess I don't quite understand your point. Yes, 5 days have passed between my first and last post. However, I gather you didn't bother to read my posts because if you had, you'd know that the only time I posed questions was on the first day that I posted. I then only elaborated in response to inquiries and after that I simply expressed my gratitude to those who were kind enough to take the time to help me improve my own understanding. Had I been to a dojo a dozen times, I imagine that I still would have found this discussion valuable.

Also, if you had been more complete in your reading, you'd have seen that I mentioned a seminar is being taught near my home - I was perhaps less than clear that it hadn't started yet, but it could be inferred by the fact that I hadn't signed up yet. Either way, by most standards I live out in the middle of nowhere, so I can't just "go to the dojo and check out the art".

Finally, I didn't see a wide variation in answers to the same question. As a matter of fact, the first class was last night and I found that most of the answers that I could compare with my experience were accurate.

Are you perhaps one of those "trolls" that I've heard talk about? If not, maybe you could elaborate as to what your point is so that I can understand.

Jon Small

:confused:

Cady Goldfield
27th December 2001, 19:02
Jon,

I trained for about a year in Kokikai in Boston with a guy named Takashi. He's a student of Maruyama. Like others who have posted here, I also noticed that Kokikai seems softer than most aikido styles I've felt or studied (Aikikai). There is a strong emphasis on yielding to force.

However, by "softer" I don't necessarily mean more relaxed. The Kokikai people I trained with and under didn't completely relax their bodies when executing waza; rather, they seemed to be more reliant on timing in countering the aggressive movements of the attacking uke. It's not a matter of absorbing or connecting with uke's attack, but of mirroring and redirecting it without really connecting. Interesting application.

Cady

Jon S.
29th December 2001, 05:54
Hi Cady,

Thanks for your insight. I think you're right, the philosophy does seem to be to "mirror" the movements of uke rather than absorb them. Until now I hadn't really considered this distinction much, it just sort of occured, but I think it's worth it to do so because timing of application is key in my book, as is relaxing, but of course it's important to know WHEN to relax.

In our Jujutsu, I think we tend to be more relaxed and yielding when in grappling situations (especially when standing), whereas we strive to "mirror" the movements more in defenses against strikes (since the body is not forced, providing you get out of the way). This allows us to intercept the attacking weapon so as to gain an advantage. I often preach that it's easier to move our own body than the opponents body.

Again, thanks for the post. I'll be considering the differences more in the future.


Jon Small