The Various Daito-ryu Branches

[dakotajudo]

I've had a bit of interest in Daito-ryu, since I used to study aikido. So, this topic prompted me to do a little web search.

It appears that there are a lot of Daito-ryu entities:

http://www.daito-ryu.org/
http://www.daito-ryu.com/
http://www.daitoryu-roppokai.org/history.htm
http://www.izzy.net/~dsharp/Yamabushi.htm
http://www.goshinkai.com/Pages/Main.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4856/

Then there's a whole list at
http://www.niagara.com/~zain/html/organize.htm

How can you tell which system is legitimately linked to Takeda Sokaku?

[Ken Allgeier]

Brently,


What are the guidelines ,so one can discern between the legitimate Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu ( or just Aiki Jujutsu in general) and the frauds.




Thank You,
ken allgeier

[MarkoMilitary]

Thanks for your replies.That's what I thought about them.I know something about the other groups so I know that most of the groups dakotajudo wrote about are somehow connected to the original Takeda branch.Anyway, thanks for the replies once again.:)

Guys,

I'll make a little list for you.

The only authentic schools of Daito ryu I personally recognize.

Hombu/mainline, Katsuyuki Kondo

Daito ryu Takumakai

Daito ryu Kodokai

Daito ryu Roppokai

Daito ryu / Seishin Abashiri

(These guys are legit Daito ryu but they IMHO fraudulently claim the mainline trad.)

Thats it! If they aren't directly linked ( recognized) by these groups, I don't count them.

Toby Threadgill

[Devon Smith]

Toby, have you had contact with or heard about the Hakuhokai? It's a Daito-ryu school headed by Shogen Okabayashi, holder of Kyoju Dairi. I believe he was a student of both Tokimune Takeda and Hisa Takuma.

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Devon Smith
Toby, have you had contact with or heard about the Hakuhokai? It's a Daito-ryu school headed by Shogen Okabayashi, holder of Kyoju Dairi. I believe he was a student of both Tokimune Takeda and Hisa Takuma.

YAMANTAKA : And isn't there also a group called BUKOYOKAI, to which Miguel Ybarra Sensei is linked? :confused:
Best

[Brently Keen]

I agree with Toby those are the main Daito-ryu branches.

One can start with Stanley Pranin's book since it contains interviews with all the authentic major branches of Daito-ryu descended from Sokaku Takeda.

They are as follows:

Mainline: Sokaku Takeda > Tokimune Takeda > Katsuyuki Kondo

Takumakai: Sokaku Takeda > Takuma Hisa > Hakaru Mori

Kodokai: Sokaku Takeda > (Taiso Horikawa) > Kodo Horikawa > Yusuke Inoue

Roppokai: Sokaku Takeda > Kodo Horikawa > Seigo Okamoto

Sagawa dojo: Sokaku Takeda > Yukiyoshi Sagawa > ??

These are the undisputed main branches of Daito-ryu, like Toby said, if there is no direct link to one of these then I'd say they should be seriously questioned.

Having said that, I'm not aware if any of Sagawa's students received the kyoju dairi or if he designated a successor, however some of his students are teaching and I've heard that a handful still practice in his dojo (at least a few years ago).

The Hakuhokai was founded by Okabayashi sensei who was a student of both Tokimune Takeda and Takuma Hisa. He claims to have received a kyoju dairi in Daito-ryu and a menkyo in Ono-ha Itto-ryu (Takeda-den). I've not been able to confirm these ranks, but if they are legitimate, his should be recognized as an authentic branch.

The Abashiri Seishinkai group is derived from Tokimune's mainline, and could thus be called a splinter of Tokimune's branch. They do have a technical connection to Tokimune, but appear to be misrepresenting their claims to be the "true" heirs as they had already split from the hombu dojo prior to Tokimune's passing. I do not recall for certain whether any of the Seishinkai leaders actually received the kyoju dairi prior to leaving, but I seem to remember Stanley Pranin saying they were previously only godan. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Ken, to answer your question, I believe that one must have received at least the kyoju dairi to be able to make any legitimate claim to teach authentic Daito-ryu, outside of one of the above (five or six) mentioned authentic branches.

In addition if I may go off on a tangent here, it is my personal opinion that ultimately it is skill that validates one's rank and not vice versa. In otherwords, one may hold a kyoju dairi (or other rank), but if he/she does not have the skills to demonstrate and validate that level of rank then the value (and perhaps authority) of the rank itself is subject to question, if not from within the organization then at least from without. I think that anyone with kyoju dairi (or higher) should also possess more than sufficient skills and abilities to validate their license. In fact, they should possess extra-ordinary skills and abilities, along with the personal character necessary to defend the honor of and preserve the essence of the tradition.

There is recognition among the above mentioned leaders of the authentic branches of Daito-ryu, and that is because of their legitimate lineal connection to Sokaku Takeda, their leader's receipt of kyoju dairi (or above) licenses, and their possession of exceptional skills.

The opposite is not necessarily true IMO. Just because someone possesses exceptional skills does not entitle them to use the prestige and name of whatever tradition they wish to identify with. ESPECIALLY if they have NOT received those skills from within the tradition. For example, many people have become skilled learning from aikido instructors (and/or other systems), but then claim to teach aikijujutsu or some derivative of Daito-ryu, when they or their teachers have not really learned their skills from Daito-ryu at all, but rather from a secondary or even tertiary source.

Basically I don't think you can study Hakko-ryu Jujutsu and Aikido for example, and then claim to be an aikijujutsu master (even if you have attended seminars or classes taught by authentic Daito-ryu masters!), it just doesn't entitle you to greatness, or to even claim you are a student of such masters, and it certainly doesn't entitle you to teach Daito-ryu yourself.

Mine is not the final word by any means, and neither is Toby's, but I think that the main groups Toby mentioned, along with the remnants of Sagawa's dojo are certainly indisputable, as there is general consensus among the heads of those branches.

Those branches are also all represented in Stanley Pranin's book, "Conversations with Daito-ryu Masters". Stanley is not a Daito-ryu authority per se, nor is his the final word either, but he is a knowledgable and respected historian and researcher of Aikido and Daito-ryu history who has established a reputation for being objective.

Brently Keen

Devon,

If Shogen Okabayashi's claim of a kyoju dairi is authentic I would definitely include his group.

The Sagawa group as well but due to Sagawa's passing and their continued low profile I didn't list them.

Although I am familiar with Ibarra Sensei and hold him & his skills in very high regard I believe it might be ... unwise to call the the Bukoyokai a style of Daito ryu. I understand it was founded by the late Katsumi Yonezawa after he was expelled from the Kodokai. (If I am wrong in this please correct me). Aikijujutsu.....maybe. Daito ryu? Ummmm... not if he was expelled from the Kodokai.

(Okay.. I can just hear the tantrum starting over this. So what.. he still learned and was licensed in Daito ryu?) Understand that in my position if an instructor of TSYR broke his keppan and was hamoned, he would be forbidden to use the Shindo Yoshin ryu name. In the TSYR instructors keppan he agrees to this condition and seals it with his blood. He can go teach whatever he likes outside the ryu but it cannot be called Shindo Yoshin ryu. I personally hold Katsumi Yonezawa to this criteria.

Tobs

[Devon Smith]

Brently said:


"In addition if I may go off on a tangent here, it is my personal opinion that ultimately it is skill that validates one's rank and not vice versa....I think that anyone with kyoju dairi (or higher) should also possess more than sufficient skills and abilities to validate their license. In fact, they should possess extra-ordinary skills and abilities, along with the personal character necessary to defend the honor of and preserve the essence of the tradition."

I don't mind the tangency, Brently, (in fact I appreciate it) and I hope Marko doesn't mind either.


Basically I don't think you can study Hakko-ryu Jujutsu and Aikido for example, and then claim to be an aikijujutsu master (even if you have attended seminars or classes taught by authentic Daito-ryu masters!), it just doesn't entitle you to greatness, or to even claim you are a student of such masters, and it certainly doesn't entitle you to teach Daito-ryu yourself.

I strongly agree with your statement. Though Hakkoryu and Aikido have common roots (from almost the same generation of commonality) I am amazed at the differences. All three schools have what appear to be similar techniques, but in my opinion, more often than not there are vast differences below the surface. I'm well past the point of having formed an opinion that there are far more differences than similarities. I wish I had three lifetimes in order to study them all to the same extent...but I had to pick one, and I'm pleased to say I'm extremely happy to have made the choice I did.

My only regret is that concerning Daito-ryu I have no first-hand experience regarding the school's concept and teachings regarding "aiki" as my only exposure to Daito-ryu is of Okabayashi sensei and his students who taught some basic jujutsu techniques at seminars. I'm well aware that my own understanding of the concept may differ from that of the Daito-ryu.

Toby, I understand your position concerning Yonezawa. Hakkoryu adheres to the same ryu "rules"...menkyojo can be granted and they can also be taken away. Those individuals who are retired/expelled have nullified their licenses and scrolls, their right to issue menjo in the ryu and cannot claim to teach Hakkoryu.

I appreciate the comments. I will attempt to provide more information regarding Okabayashi sensei. I'd like to see him recognized amongst the others, so I'll see what I can provide.

Regards,

Devon

{edited for spelling}

[MarkoMilitary]

Right Devon I don't mind the tangency and I think that you guys explained it to me very well.
Many Thanks.
:wave:

[MarkoMilitary]

Mr Keen you are a Roppokai 'instructor' right?.Can you give me your permission to e-mail you, 'cause I have a couple of questions to ask and I think that it would be better to e-mail you than to ask it here on the forum.:confused:

[Brently Keen]

Marko (and everyone),

Please let me clarify something:

To really be an "Instructor" in Daito-ryu, you must have received the kyoju dairi (master teaching license), I'm not there yet.

In the Roppokai, Okamoto sensei also gives a jun kyoju dairi, or assistant instructors license. I'm not there yet either. I'm still a lowly shodan since I've not been training regularly enough in Tokyo for some years, I've not advanced along like some of my peers (and even juniors) who have since passed me up in rank. But I don't much worry about that, as ranks in the Roppokai (below okugi sandan) do not indicate ability so much as time spent training with Okamoto sensei. For me, the pursuit of actual ability is much more important, than the accumulation of rank.

As you know, traditionally there were no ranks in Daito-ryu only certificates and licenses. Traditionally in Daito-ryu it was (and ultimately is IMHO) techniques that are ranked, not individuals. One can execute shoden, chuden, okuden, and/or hiden level techniques, or you can't.

In the Roppokai, all students train together and Okamoto sensei teaches the same techniques/curriculum to everybody. He doesn't teach some basic techniques to the beginners and some other "secret" advanced techniques to the seniors. Everyone practices the same things.

I believe this is one of the reasons why the Roppokai is considered to be the most progressive of the Daito-ryu branches. It's not because the Roppokai techniques or curriculum are more modern than they are "classical". Certainly as a master instructor, Okamoto sensei has been an innovator. He's continued to develop the art, and created new techniques and training methods. But he has done so remaining faithful to the principles of the art. What many fail to realize is that Okamoto sensei still teaches both the same techniques and uses the same essential method that Sokaku transmitted to Kodo Horikawa who in turn taught them to Okamoto sensei.

Anyway, the main reason the Roppokai is "progressive" is because Okamoto sensei teaches openly. All members are shown the goods, but in the end, everyone's techniques also reveal their progress from shoden to chuden to okuden to hiden levels of application. Personally, I am content to let my techniques speak for themselves.

So getting back to the subject, technically I am not an "instructor" in the Roppokai. However, I was designated by Okamoto sensei as the Shibu-cho (branch director) for the Western USA, which for all practical purposes was limited to the Santa Cruz Roppokai. In that context, I am allowed to teach my students only what I know (up to my level of ability). I do not go by the title "sensei", since I still consider myself primarily a fellow student (along with all Roppkai members) of Okamoto sensei.

Incidentally, the Santa Cruz dojo is now on sabbatical as I am currently living in Colorado. With that all cleared up, I now move on to Marko's question:

Please feel free to email me personally (my email should be in my profile), I'd be happy to try and answer any questions you might have, and if I don't know the answer, I'll try and find out. Likewise, if I can be of any assistance to anyone else here at e-budo please feel free to email me as well.

Brently Keen
soulsamurai@hotmail.com

[Undmark, Ulf]

Hello all!

I have a few questions that I hope someone can answer.
First of all, I'd like to apologize if these questions have been answered too many times already, but the subjects are still a bit confusing to me...I do not know a lot about Daito ryu.

I have only seen some demonstrations, I believe by Kondo Katsuyuki (main line Daito ryu?) and I do not personally know any students of aikijujutsu. Please have patience with me.

1. There seem to be several branches or groups of Daito ryu.
What groups are concidered "legit" (or, rather, founded by direct students of Takeda Sokaku)?

2. Have all the founders of these groups recieved menkyo (or similar) by Takeda Sokaku, or at least recieved the whole curriculum of Daito ryu?

3. What students (founders of branches) studied most (or the longest period of time perhaps) under Takeda Sokaku and how would their knowledge (not skill) of the complete Daito ryu curriculum compare to that of Ueshiba Morihei's?

4. Are these branches very different in how they organize techniques and what they actually teach today, and is it in any way possible to tell what group teaches the closest to Takeda Sokaku's own Daito ryu?

5. Did Takeda Sokaku teach kenjutsu at all after introducing Daito ryu to a wider audience and did he then call it Daito ryu or Ono ha Itto ryu? If he taught these arts, what students recieved these teachings, how much and how are they viewed by the main line of the Ono ha Itto ryu?

6. Did Takeda Sokaku teach other weapons than sword in connection to Daito ryu?

7. What is the "Kaishaku soden" (sp?)?

Well, that was a whole lot of questions (phew)!!
I hope that someone will at least take on one or two of them.

Sincerely,

Ulf Undmark

[MarkF]

Hi, Ulf,
Since on one has answered you yet, I'll give it a go (Watch! Now they will crawl out of the rocks they live under to correct my insinutated knowledge.:) )

1)"Mainline" DR is that directly under Kondo Katsuyuki. Others within that are the late son of Sokaku Takeda, Tokimune, generally considered to be the only one with permission to teach it, but the other schools said to be legitimate schools of DR are the Kodokai, Roppokai and Takamtsu-ha

2)I'm not sure, but I believe the only one recognized and handed the entire curriculim is Kondo-sensei.

3)There were some thirty-thousand which received instruction from Sokaku, but it is said few were given instruction in aiki no jutsu, or the ura (trade secrets). Sokaku almost always traveled to instruct and was said to have charged per technique, so the reason for so many being able to make the claim of "direct" instruction.

4)Well, perhaps those schools recognized to day as legitimate probably teach technique as close as anyone to the original, so they are "mainline DR", Kodokai, Roppokai, Takamatsu-ha (?), and then there is the Seishinkai out of Abashiri in Japan which makes claims to the Head Family, etc., but is not recognized by the schools I've mentioned. Instead, they were connected to a distant relative of Takeda Sokaku. From what I've read and seen by video, they all have distinct manners of teaching, but the basic principles are the same.

5)I am sure Sokaku had learned some iai or kenjutsu, but I am not sure of the extent that he taught them, if at all.

6)Don't know.

7)Don't know

I hope someone comes to rescue me from the pit of doom, and will deal with me harshly, but with kindness in each lash. Perhaps, since I can't answer much definitively, someone will come and fill in the gaps...no...huge cravass' I've opened up.

I apologize for not knowing any more, or cannot be specific on the "I think" answers.

In all sincerity, I should simply point out the mainline web site URL: http://daito-ryu.org and you may want to visit the Aikido Journal online to see the interviews, and statements of Stanley Pranin. I understand that he may know more than anyone else on the general subject of your questions, or read a book on the subject, both available at: http://www.aikidojournal.com. Kondo-sensei has answered some questions which came about with the Abashiri group, and answers that question as well as others which have many discussing the technical questions surrounding the main school[s]. I've read most of the discussions at AJ and am very confused, so good luck.;)

You will find those answers, either as a member of AJ, or on the message board there. The paper magazine in now only available online, but I believe back issues can be had there as can the books on DR, one by S. Pranin with his interviews, a book or perhaps two, by Kondo-sensei.

Good luck!

Mark

[Undmark, Ulf]

Mark,

Thank you very much for answering. I was worried for a while that there were a very specific reason no one had answered that I might have missed or missunderstood. I am new to this forum.

I, like you, have read some of the articles to be found on-line, but it is very confusing for someone who have had close to no experience at all with these groups. It is very difficult to find the information I asked for when dealing with so many groups and claims and so much information. I've tried to find and clear out the specifics that I asked for (that is the information that I really find most interesting) but it's all mixed up with myths, legends (about Takeda and the origins of different aiki-teachings and aiki-budo), different points of view from different groups as well as different oppinions from Ueshibas students and followers. Most of all, there's a whole lot of information that is probably hidden among thousands of lines of other information in various books and internet sites.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer and I really hope that more people can perhaps help out and participate as well.

Best Regards,
Ulf Undmark

[Dan Harden]

Ulf. I would guess that no one has answered because it is a very detailed and difficult topic, therefore it is hard to "be right" about everything.
I would suggest Aikido Journal's past issues and also Stanleys book; Daito ryu Aikijujutsu "Conversations with Daito ryu masters.

*************************

1. There seem to be several branches or groups of Daito ryu.
What groups are considered "legit" (or, rather, founded by direct students of Takeda Sokaku)?

Mainline-Menkyo Kaiden
Currently under Kondo who teaches openly.
The "full syllibus" card is arguementative. Others received the "full syllibus" as was currently available at certain times under Sokaku. After Sokakus death Tokimune catagorized the techniques and added names.
The Mainline includes the split off Sad group; Seishinkan. They trained under Takeda T. as long as Kondo did. We all have opinions about technique and highly questionable authority and ethics. But their training history is at least sound and cannot be taken away.

Sagawa Dojo-Kyoju Dairi- 1932
Arguably the most advanced of all of Sokakus students.
Small conservative school, only teaching Japanese while headmaster was alive. Very high level Aiki, with techniques that appear more linear. Those in the know from other branches have said his technique was the best out there, and that he knew it too.


Kodokai- Menkyo Kaiden
Another very conservative small school that concentrates on quiet training and maintaining a low profile. Has much jujutsu as well as high level Aiki with very small movements.

Roppokai-former Kodo kai teacher that left to open his own branch.
Teaches openly. Okomoto has been teaching Aiki openly and has received some ridicule for doing so. School reportedly concentrates on Aiki more than jujutsu.

Boyokukai (sp?) Yonozawa
This gentleman left the Kodo kai and opened his own school.
There were some difficulties that followed his career in the U.S. There are some schools remaining.


Takumakai-Menkyo Kaiden
Teaches openly. Received teaching from Ueshiba as well as Sokaku.
They have an 11 volume set of photographed techniques called "The Soden." This combination of teachings from Ueshiba and Sokaku have afforded them a unique library of techniques to draw on. At one time they were going to line up their syllibus in the same form as Tokimunes, but shortly after his death they went their own way. Some Daito ryu people have commented on their "different" looking execution of technique. Some have called it more Aikido-like.


Relatively unkown schools
There are a few legitimate small schools operating quietly under a teacher here or there in Japan and abroad.
I first heard of the art and trained extensively with a fellow who was stuck here in the U.S. for a while. No one (including me) had ever heard of Daito ryu back then. I asked an Aikido Shihan about what I was training in- he told me the art was dead and there was no way I was learning it in the U.S. That comment threw me for awhile-was I lied to? It sure as hell didn't look or feel like Aikido, or Judo to me. As I said; the comment left me perplexed.
Imagine my surprise when in 1991 I met another Daito ryu teacher, performed Mokuroku techniques for him (at an Aikido Dojo) and he knew exactly what I was doing without me saying a word.
There is another Japanese teacher in the Northeast teaching quietly since 1988 I believe. I have only seen him twice. His style appears more like mainline to me, although I have never heard of his teachers name. His English is terrible and my Japanese non-existant so we had trouble talking. Our first meeting was rather comical. He had his students do a demo at an Aikido dojo. Half way through I leand over and simply said "Daito ryu!"
He sucked in his breath and scratched his head...he didn't want to reveal the name at the time since no one was teaching openly.
Last I heard he had three students.

There is one other older gentleman teaching somewhere in Mass. with a small school as well. I do not know his background.
These people shun advertising. You have to know someone to train there.

Aikido Yoshinkan
While not looking like Daito ryu at all-Shioda's technique stood out from the rest of Aikido. Many thought it was due to his early training wth Ueshiba-yet stangely, no other "early" student looked like him.
His own signatures revelead he spent considerable time training in the Kodokai-and never talked about it.

**********************************

2. Have all the founders of these groups recieved menkyo (or similar) by Takeda Sokaku, or at least recieved the whole curriculum of Daito ryu?

Too complicated to answer in detail as the art was apparently still growing under Sokaku. At any one point you could say this or that one received it all-but then twenty years later there was more to know. Add to that the fact that the art is principle based, so any one practioner can grow over time and create their own "techniques."


*****************************

3. What students (founders of branches) studied most (or the longest period of time perhaps) under Takeda Sokaku and how would their knowledge (not skill) of the complete Daito ryu curriculum compare to that of Ueshiba Morihei's?

Hah.......see above.
The deal is this- Just like in many other arts, it's not just how long you studied WITH him, but how much you trained on your own between visits. Due to the nature of Daito ryu; much work can be done with a small group training on their own between visits for correction and further technque from the head guy. Thus any two students could have trained with Sokaku for the same length of time yet "one" is better.
The sweat is what pays off. You cannot learn the art by being shown a technique and then thinking you "got it." Also due to the difficult and protracted learning curve, many people left without truly inculcating deep technique.

To this day you can train with a Daito ryu teacher who may show you Aiki techniques and concentrate on them with you. Then the very same teacher will go to other places and concentrate on Aikijujutsu techniques. Thus the same teacher, by his students accounts; appears to be teaching different things.

Ueshiba
Ueshiba "took a left" somewhere in his training. By the first hand accounts of those who trained with Both Ueshiba and Sokaku their execution of technique was very different. It is not a question of whether Ueshiba was "as good" as other students. He chose to use his Daito ryu Aiki in a milder and non-invasive manner. Much of the behind the scenes talk has been that currently Aikido has no one who can do the techniques like him because no one has studied Daito ryu Aiki-the engine that made the original Aikido work.

**********************

4. Are these branches very different in how they organize techniques and what they actually teach today,

YES

and is it in any way possible to tell what group teaches the closest to Takeda Sokaku's own Daito ryu?

NO

************************
5. Did Takeda Sokaku teach kenjutsu at all after introducing Daito ryu to a wider audience and did he then call it Daito ryu or Ono ha Itto ryu? If he taught these arts, what students recieved these teachings, how much and how are they viewed by the main line of the Ono ha Itto ryu?

Takeda was a Jikishinkage ryu student as well (under Sakakibara). He taught various weapons as well as sword- but not to everyone.

*******************

Well, that's my attempt without spending a week with the books open. If you are truly interested,I strongly suggest doing your own research with Stanly Pranins works and Web site. Then you would have to go study with someone to get more of the behind the scenes talk that no one will include here.
Beyond that I would heartally recommend taking up the study of this very detailed and deep art. Its principles and techniques are among the finest I have seen. the several schools do look and feel different but once you feel Daito ryu it is impossible to not see the similarities. Some are concentrating on the aspects of aiki over jujutsu, others you will do jujutsu for years before gettng into deeper aspects of Aiki. In any event its elegant, pragmatic, violence is of the highest levels of Budo-a true life time pursuit.

Dan

[Undmark, Ulf]

Dan,

Thank you very much. That was a whole lot of information and helps me a lot! I'm beginning to get interested in Mr. Pranin's book already. I can understand the difficulty in "being right" when it comes to my questions. I try to be open minded about the information. Thank you again!

Best regards,
Ulf Undmark

[Ron Tisdale]

Dan,

Excellent post. I think this one goes in the archives. Tactfull too! My oh my...

:)

Ron Tisdale

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Undmark, Ulf]

Thank you Nathan and thanx to everyone else who have helped.
I read the Daito ryu densho thread concerning the Kaishaku soden. My guess was that it concerned assistance, but I was confused by the amount of waza/kata/teachings. In Shinden ryu (Hasegawa Eishin) there is the one Junto/Kaishakuto, so I thought that the Kaishaku soden might be much more than only (477) ways to assist a friend. This is why I believed there might be more to the name of that section.

Best regards,
Ulf

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Undmark, Ulf]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott

But what I didn't know, was that there is a second "Kaishaku" that means "interpretation, elucidation". This is the kanji that is used in Daito ryu's Kaishaku Soden.

A primitive translation may be read as "the annotated catalog of inherited transmission".

Interesting.


Ah, that would ofcourse explain the number of waza.
Great information, and really interesting!!

Ulf

[Gary Gabelhouse]

Hello All,

There has been some banter about with regard to the history and age of Daitoryu as well as what Kai or groups can be considered "legitimate."

From my training, my teacher and my research, I feel a form of martial art--the precursor to Daitoryu, appeared at the time of Emperor Seiwa (850-880 AD) and was handed down to succeeding generations of the Minamoto family. Some generations later, Sinra Saburo Yoshimitu Minamoto learned the extant form of Daitoryu and significantly added to the art. It is he who is designated as the founder of Daitoryu Aikijujutsu.

Sinra Saburo Yoshimitu Minamoto's mansion, Daito Mansion (Great Sword Mansion?), was the source of the art's naming.

Yoshimitu's 2nd son, Yoshikiyo, lived in Takeda, in the Kai province, and became quite famous for his Daitoryu. Consequently, the techniques were passed on to successive generations as the secret art of the Takeda clan.

In 1574, Takeda Kunitsugu moved to Aizu and the techniques were passed on to his generations and were known as the Aizu-todome techniques.

The techniques were taught only to generations of the Takeda house until in 1868--the Meiji. It was after this abolition of the Samurai that Sokaku Takeda began teaching Daitoryu outside of the Takeda house.

So, when Cristopher disagreed with Limomoges, about the age of Daitoryu and the presence of Daitoryu in Aizu . . . I will have to side with Limomoges. In 1574 (hundreds of years ago) Daitoryu was taught in Aizu by Takeda Kunitsugu.

Also, Brently stated there were only 4 "legitimate" Kai or Daitoryu groups. I respectfully disagree, and I fear I am showing a bias for my teacher ;-) My teacher, Kenkichi Ohgami began his study with Takuma Hisa, I believe, back in the late 50's. He was one of Hisa's senior students and was one of the founding members of the Takuma Kai. Later he did part ways and founded, with Hisa's full support and permission, the Daibukan Dojo (Hisa actually named the dojo). Over the years, Hisa was a regular visiting teacher at the Daibukan. After Hisa's death, Ohgami-Sensei founded the Daibukan as an organization and now has dojo throughout Japan, Germany, Italy, Canada and the U.S. (where I teach Daitoryu Aikijujutsu).

Ohgami-Sensei's book, "In Pursuit of Dreams: My Aikijujitsu" will be printed in English by the Lyons Press in the summer of 2004. In that book is the first approved biography of Takuma Hisa, with many wonderful, historic photos.

FYI

Best Regards,
Gary Gabelhouse

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[chris davis 200]

HI All

As per the Aikido board - hows about putting together an outline of the various branches of Daito ryu.

I know of:

Mainstream / line Daito Ryu - headed by Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei

Takuma Kai - Following the teachings of Takuma Hisa sensei

Roppokai - established by Okamoto sensei

Hakuho Kai /ryu - Headed by Okabayashi Shogen Sensei

Daito Kai - headed by Kato Shigemitsu Sensei

Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu -headed by Kimura Sensei

anyone know of any others?

Cheers
Chris

[Brian Griffin]

You forgot the Kodokai, established by Horikawa Kodo and currently headed by Inoue Yusuke menkyo kaiden.

Okamoto sensei was a Kodokai shihan before founding the Roppokai with Horikawa sensei's permission.

Yonezawa Katsumi also left the Kodokai and started his Bokuyokan organization. Yonezawa was a Kodokai 7-dan, but I don't know whether he was promoted to shihan by the Kodokai. I believe Tim Tung currently heads up the Bokuyokan.

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[chris davis 200]

cheers Nathan

[ninja dude]

i was just wondering what different ryu and kai branched off of daito ryu? thanks for the help

[Kenshin Butsu]

Look up Kondo Katsuyuki. He's in charge of mainline Daito Ryu.

[Fred27]

Just for kicks, here are a few clips with Kondo-sensei. Aikidojournal clip-gallery (http://www.aikidojournal.com/clips.php?id=30)

[Kenshin Butsu]

That was an awesome clip. Thanks dude.

[judasith]

I don't want to be polemic, so I'll try and keep my calm.

1. *MOST* of Kondo's students seem to "forget" that one of the main AND legitimate Daitoryu branches is the Seishinkai/Daitokai which is comprised of the eldest students of Takeda Tokimune Sensei at the time of his death. The position of Mr. Kondo is as controversial from our point of view than ours from his students and supporters. In any case I have no problem, as I have said in other posts, to recognize, in any case, that what Kondo teaches is mainline Daitoryu, the same as ours. The legitimacy/succession issues are based on HOW MUCH of the art he claims he knows based on the menkyo, but I am the first to recognize his Ippondori is substantially the same as ours. In any case we are writing a book which will contain a lot of original material from the Soke (including a VERY interesting chart of the Daitoryu Aikibudo association in 1973, and tons of photographic material...) that I'm sure will be quite a big and unexpected shock in the Daitoryu world.

In any case I listed many times Kondo's association with the main legitimate ones, even though I partially dissent, it seems to me only fair that many of the biased posters here - most of whom never ACTUALLY practiced any Daitoryu - would do the same with the Seishinkai/Daitokai.

2. Nathan, thanks for your remembrance of our association, but I must say you are outdated: we do not say anymore to be the Hombu of Daitoryu. Abashiri IS the Hombu for our association only. I still personally (and with evidence that I will gratefully publish in the book) believe our teachers are the principal mainline Daitoryu based on both knowledge and first hand practice of their techniques, and that my teacher WAS actually THERE when they broke up with Mr. Kondo.

3. So in my opinion, and to contribute also in a positive way to this thread, this is the list of legitimate Daitoryu teachers in my opinion:

A. Mainline (=derived from Takeda Tokimune Sensei, in my belief the more balanced and the only - save for Kondo S. - that still practices also the Takedaden Onoha Ittoryu sword):

A1. Kondo's Shimbukai
A2. Kato's Daitokai/Seishinkai
A3. Ichibashi's Takeda Soke line (he was and elder student who sided with the new self-proclaimed Soke, who has no technical knowledge of the art.
A4. Okabayashi's Hakuho-ryu (he also has influences from Takumakai that he practiced, but he still is prevalently mainline, teaching, like we do and all the other mainline other than Kondo's, also Onoha Ittoryu. He actually was under Kato Sensei until a few years ago, but since this is contested from his students and since I have photographic and also video evidence of this, when he came to Italy under Kato Sensei as an assistant this will be addressed in our book in a definitive way, I believe).
A5. Shuyo-kan Daitoryu (from a Shodan of Takeda Tokimune Sensei.)

B. Kodo Horikawa's lines (very much Aiki-oriented, way more than the most progressive Aikidos, some of these teachers claim to paralyze and make people sleep/wake with aiki)

B1. Inoue's Kodokai
B2. Nishikido's Kodokai
B3. Okamoto's Roppokai

C. Takuma Hisa's lines (much more similar to the mainline, they use the same shoden but different advanced techniques which they learn from a big photobook of kata both from Ueshiba S. and Takeda Sokaku S., no sword practice though).

C1. Mori's Takumakai
C2. Amatsu's Takumakai branch
C3. Ohgami's association (they practice only using the Souden pictures)

D. Sagawa dojo (now led by his eldest student).

Best regards,

Giacomo Merello

[Shama_Grier]

Though this thread was not started by me all I can say is thank you.

I have been interested in martial arts for some time and due to parents, have not been able partake in any. Instead I have simply dreamt of joining a dojo of somekind and decided to research various forms of martial arts, my interest has been focused on Daito-Ryu aikijujutsu as it is not simply a physical, but rich cultural experience.

While many libraries are limited in their literature featuring Daito-Ryu and I as of yet can't afford to buy the books that have the most information I have looked amongst the web for information. This site in particular has been very helpful and all the information in this thread is helpful too. Thanks.

[judasith]

Your welcome, I forgot to add the development of these organization outside of Japan.

To my knowledge, (but please people from other association correct me) the widest and with the biggest number of branch dojos both in the U.s. and in Europe are the Roppokai of Seigo Okamoto, and our Daitokai of Kato Shigemitsu. I guess they are followed by the Takumakai, which has a good presence in northern Europe, and the Hakuho-ryu of Okabayashi Shogen (also in Europe). Kondo Katsuyuki has a study group in Baltimore, U.s.. I don't know about the other associations.

If you are interested in Daitoryu I believe PERSONALLY that you should choose one of the associations from the Mainline or the Mori's Takumakai. The others did not convince me and are very different from these two groups (while still legitimate!) in terms of techniques and principles. Also, the mainline is the only one where you can also learn (to my knowledge, people from the other groups tell something here) Onoha Ittoryu kenjutsu, save, of course of going directly to Sasamori Soke in Tokyo (but the Daitoryu Onoha, called "Takedaden" has some small differences, while substantially remaining the same art.

Now the list of the ones, I believe, are frauds or not based on any of the recognizable Takeda lineage - maybe some of them are good martial arts, but they are NOT Daitoryu Aikijujutsu, even if they partly use the name:

-Saigo-ha, both Canadian (which also mixes some Chinese MA) and the one from a certain Kazuoki Sogawa S. (not to be messed up with the late and legitimate SAgawa S.).

-Takeda-ryu, from a certain Nakamura (it has some similarities, but, by the hell, Kotegaeshi is similar in most fighting systems, isn't it??)

-Yamabushi-ryu aikijujutsu, from Miguel Ibarra, a very good self-defense teacher who tried for years to apply to the Seishinkai, and was always refused, and one day decided he didn't need teaching to create his own Daitoryu.

-Nihonden Aikijutsu, from Kogen Sugasawa, who simply was a student of an Aikido teacher of the Kansai Aikido Club, founded by Takuma Hisa, and used this "misunderstanding" to his own advantage, as did Shiro Omiya, exactly in the same way!

-Floquet's Aikibudo, sometimes he actually claims to be the head of Daitoryu in all Europe! He went to Abashiri with Takeda Tokimune Soke, stayed there for 2 weeks introducing himself with black belts and black hakamas and titles, and the Soke gave him an honorary 2nd Dan. He teaches a mix of Aikido, Yoseikan Budo and some "historical katas" which are none other than Ikkajo, the first 30 techniques of Daitoryu, spanning them in years and years of practice (something like at sandan in Aikibudo you still haven't finished Ikkajo!!!).

-Kaze Arashi-ryu, you can find exaustive information on this forum. I saw them before this case emerged and I found their jujutsu similar to World Jujitsu Federation and the kenjutsu similar to Western hollywood movies on Japan swordplay.

In general, it is a good advice to stay away from people wearing big colored keikogis with promos, medals and patches stitched/colored on them, or claiming to sprout mystical energy from their fingers, as well as people with too many menkyo kaiden, 10th dan and the like, that usually like to be addressed as Professor or Dr. :)

Best regards,

Giacomo Merello

P.s.
A friend of mine told me my writing is a little too straightforward for American guys, I'm sorry, I'll try to be more diplomatic, but it's in my nature... and I also met many great U.s. guys who are as naive as me... :P

[MarkF]

It hasn't been so far, at least not from my view. I love a "straight forward" opinion especially if I disagree with it. That is my personal opinion only, and I yield to the moderator of this forum.

Some of the best threads on E-budo have been in the AJJ forum.


Mark

[Kendoguy9]

<<2. Nathan, thanks for your remembrance of our association, but I must say you are outdated: we do not say anymore to be the Hombu of Daitoryu.>>

Dude, Giacomo, you do realize that you are replying to a post that is over 2 years old right? I'm sure lots has changed in your organization. I'm sure people have come and gone.

I think there are other legit Daito-ryu groups besides the main ones you listed and their off shoots, but the big ones just get the most credit because they were founded by menkyo kaiden level students of Sokaku sensei. I think some of the smaller groups were founded by students with only kyojudairi. Many of the smaller groups also held some sort of association with one of the big groups (mostly mainline or Takumakai) which makes them even more difficult to trace. But this is a whole new topic beyond my limited knowledge of the subject.

At least we agree on the bogus groups! I'm sure there are even more than that, too!

[judasith]

Whoops! Didn't notice! I just filtered the last two months posts and it popped up :)

Well, in any case I do agree there are, IN JAPAN, a great number of smaller dojos or one-dojo associations still practicing Daitoryu (most were originally under the Soke).

One of the problems in Japan, and I guess everyone with a little experience knows, is teachers tend to argue for being each one the leader of each organization (guess "war" it's in their history too!).

In any case the ones I listed are the ones with an higher probability of accepting a foreign student (with the exception of Sagawa dojo, but I don't know which policy adopted the new head).

Unfortunately, is highly possible that the smaller ones will eventually die out: let's face it, in any case, including all possibile legitimate associations and an estimate of the private dojos I don't believe there are more than 1000 regular practitioners of Daitoryu in the whole world! We always say here: Daitoryu, the most talked about, and least practiced martial art. Even our association, which is one of the biggest (save for Roppokai, maybe?) is on surviving-level numbers.

It's probably actually good and right like this, Daitoryu is a difficult art, quite painful and veeeery long to learn properly. Also, at least in Italy, now more "flashy", "aestethic" or "for fitness" martial arts gather the most people (from strange chinese/vietnamite things to something called "Fit Boxe" the strangest union of women aerobics and kickboxing)

[DarkThrone]

Whoops! Didn't notice! I just filtered the last two months posts and it popped up :)

Well, in any case I do agree there are, IN JAPAN, a great number of smaller dojos or one-dojo associations still practicing Daitoryu (most were originally under the Soke).

One of the problems in Japan, and I guess everyone with a little experience knows, is teachers tend to argue for being each one the leader of each organization (guess "war" it's in their history too!).

In any case the ones I listed are the ones with an higher probability of accepting a foreign student (with the exception of Sagawa dojo, but I don't know which policy adopted the new head).

Unfortunately, is highly possible that the smaller ones will eventually die out: let's face it, in any case, including all possibile legitimate associations and an estimate of the private dojos I don't believe there are more than 1000 regular practitioners of Daitoryu in the whole world! We always say here: Daitoryu, the most talked about, and least practiced martial art. Even our association, which is one of the biggest (save for Roppokai, maybe?) is on surviving-level numbers.

It's probably actually good and right like this, Daitoryu is a difficult art, quite painful and veeeery long to learn properly. Also, at least in Italy, now more "flashy", "aestethic" or "for fitness" martial arts gather the most people (from strange chinese/vietnamite things to something called "Fit Boxe" the strangest union of women aerobics and kickboxing)

This is a very true statement, and very succently put. My sensei lived and trained in Gunma, at the Renshinkan Dojo , which in his words "I doubt they would know it since it’s two hours north of Narita airport, most travelers will go to Tokyo Hombu" The Renshinkan is headed by Matsuda sensei, who was a direct student of Sokaku Takeda. I have been training for about 1.5 years, and currently my sensei has one other reguler student. We train at his house, out of the public view.

[judasith]

... not that in Japan itself things are much better than here... the traditional martial arts have very few followers: I have no doubt that Brasilian jujitsu has more students there than all the Daitoryu schools united! I don't know exactly why... one theory we thought about could be maybe koryu remember the average people the Japanese military period and the loss of the war; we use a parallel for Italy: it's probably like if we'd nowadays dress like the Mussolini's black squads and practice WW2 knife combat. But then it's harder to make a paragon, since in Japan there is (or was?) so much the culture of preserving the past...

[Jose Garrido]

I think that the reason is actually much simpler than the cultural backlash of the war. I believe that these martial sports prevail more than koryu martial arts simply because they are sports. And this appeals to the vast majority of people since they like to compete against another in one form or another.

Jose Garrido

[MarkF]

In the case of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, it is not Japanese, so whatever the direction, it really isn't the best one for comparison. Judo is a little better but then there are Meiji era jujutsu ryu as well. example: Yabe Ryu.

Everyone likes competition, no matter how far you go back there is no discounting what people liked to do on their off time. There was taryu jiai,
Sumo, etc. Those who slung a bow, well, I cannot believe that they didn't compete. Whether over money, the next sake, or for bragging rights, or simply human pride, they were not employed 24/7.


Mark