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luar
4th November 2001, 23:46
I was going to add this to the Randori thread but it seemed to deserve a discussion of its own....

For the first time since I started Shorinji Kempo, I saw my first street fight. It looked like it was over a traffic incident between two drivers although I did not see any signs of an accident. This fight felt different to me because I am very close to getting my first brown belt and am now starting to see how SK is all coming together.

The two guys were simply flailing their fists but in such a silly way. Mind you any kind of street fight is silly first of all because it simply is and second just as silly when you see the lack of thinking that goes on.

Imagine for example, you are standing in front of your opponent swinging your arms fully extended with no ducking and only back and forth linear movement. That is what I saw.

In my mind, I sided with one guy (don't ask why, it was purely subconcious) and I was mentally telling him - RYUSUI GERI, RUSUI GERI!!!

Anyway the way the fight turned out was they both wore each other out and other people got involved to pull them apart and afterwards they each went their seperate ways - nothing resolved as usual.

After thinking about this for a while, I think that I do not have the skills yet to fully take charge and bring the conflict to a quick finish but I do believe that I do have at least the basic skills to constantly wear the opponent out by constantly using my blocking and dodging skills waitinf for every opportunity to counter-strike.

One question I would like to ask in regards to this is that I have seen embu where the defender extends his hand out in order to draw the attacker to grab his wrist so that a juho counter-techique can be applied. Is that something that can be effective under the conditions I desricbed above?

Thanks for listening.

Chuck Munyon
5th November 2001, 02:06
Luar,
The kind of street fight that you describe is almost always avoidable because that kind of clash of egos almost always requires the formality of a few harsh word before arms start flailing. If you can swallow your pride and efface yourself, you can almost invariably defuse the fight. If somebody REALLY wants to have a go at you, chances are that you're not going to simply be able to wear them out without putting yourself at SIGNIFICANT risk of taking at least a couple of shots, and the problem is that even an awkward blow landed luckily in the right place can be a real stunner, paving the way for more shots (vicious circle). I've heard the wear-your-opponent-out technique advocated a couple of times, but I can't say that I've ever heard it argued convincingy as being worth the risk. Do whatever it takes to defuse a fight, but if it starts finish it quick, preferably with a lock but with a succession of strikes if need be. NEVER hit the guy once and then back off and do the "had enough?" thing. If you've hit him, he's gonna be mad as hell, and he's not gonna want to quit unless you've put him on the ground for a little while.
The problem with trying to invite a grab is that wrist-grabbing is just not in the street-fight mentality; for your average untrained or street-trained fighter, hands become clubs as soon as the adrenaline kicks in. That angry state of mind simply produces too much tension for the hands to open easily. If they try to grab anything, it will probably be your shirt so they can hold you while they hit you (remember to thank them for immobilizing that hand as you apply the arm-bar). The other danger is that trying to set up a specific move is a lot more difficult than simply trying to set up an opening on a given part of the body.

My $.02
Chuck Munyon

Kimpatsu
5th November 2001, 04:54
Dear Luar,
Gassho.
FWIW, I agree with Chuck on this one. Embu is a useful training tool and, as Kaiso said, it's where SK crosses over into being an art form, but I don't think an angry motorist is going to think about grabbing a proffered limb. He'd more likely bat it out of the way before trying to pummel you to the ground. I also agree with Chuck that once the first punch is thrown, you must continue to counter-attack until your opponent is on the floor. With juho, the most likely practical application would be, for example, before the actual fisticuffs start, you were to attempt to turn away, saying something to the effect that you don't want to argue, and your mad-as-hell opponent grabs you by the arm to pull you back, as he hasn't finished saying everything he wants yet. The instant that he grabs you is the moment for juho.
My 2 yen, anyway.
HTH,

colin linz
5th November 2001, 07:01
To protect oneself from every conceivable attack is near impossible, but what can be done is create a perceived weakness in your defence. This allows a measure of prediction of the attackers action. It is a basic concept applied in military or business to achieve a positive outcome.

What has to be remembered is that the decoy needs to be understood by the opponent. You would use different openings for different levels of skill and style, this is where it becomes difficult to judge. Against a highly skilled opponent anything more than a subtle opening would raise alarm bells. However someone less skilled will require a more obvious opening. When fighting with a grappler it is better to leave a Juho type of opening, because this is what he wants to find. When fighting a boxer it will be unlikely that he will want to grapple, so you would lure him into attacking an area by leaving an opening to strike you.

This is not to say you fight in the style of your opponent as that would be silly unless you are highly skilled in that area. However your best chance of successfully defending yourself is after they attack, and it will be the easiest if you have some idea as to what they may do.

Luar, to answer your question. yes the concept could be used in this situation. but the example you gave would be more than likely ineffective given the skill and technique of fighting you described.

On the point of exhaustion. Ali used this strategy against Forman. He taunted him through out the match and just covered up ( this can be done in boxing because the attacks are so restricted ) letting Forman pound him until he was tired. Once he started to tire Ali defeated him easy.

Cheers
Colin

Onno
9th February 2002, 05:53
Gassho __||__

Hello Luar:

Here are my two yens worth.

The invitations for Juho that you see in Embus are a bit exaggerated for what you would use in real life. Remember that an Embu is made to clearly illustrate a smooth flow of techniques that can easily followed by the observer. At a seminar I was at a while ago the guest Sensei demonstrated some real world applications of Shorinji Kempo stances. Many of the stances have an invitation (sasou) built into them. For example, Hasso Gamae is an invitation to strike into the stomach area (Chudan), while protecting your head (Jodan). In the example you gave you could use Hasso gamae in a calming way, with your palms open and facing towards the aggressor all the while saying " Easy... calm down.."etc. This looks like a weak, submissive posture to the opponent and may defuse the situation. But, from your side, you know that if he tries to hit you, his best opening is chudan. Which is easily covered with Shita uke. If he goes for the head, your are already half way to doing Uchi uke. Also, by having your hands up, it gives him the invitation to grab one or both of them.( maybe angrily shaking them) Giving you lots of opportunities for things like; Kiri nuki, Gassho nuki, Juji nuki, Juji gote, or Maki gote to name a few.



Kesshu

Sincerely yours

Onno Kok
Alberta Shibu
Calgary, Canada

Tripitaka of AA
14th August 2002, 07:03
I'm still new to this site, but I'm digging my way through the backlog of excellent threads, links and articles.

Regarding this thread, I am intrigued by a thought or two.

Many Shorinji Kenshi will NEVER witness a street-fight, much less likely get involved in one. This will, in part, be due to their sensible avoidance of dangerous situations and the use of good "calming word"-waza. Yet Self-Defense is a crucial part of the balanced mix that Shorinji Kempo offers students (Healthy Mind - Healthy Body - SELF DEFENSE). It makes sense, therefore, to insure that the quality of teaching in this area is as excellent as the aerobic fitness, Seiho and Howa aspects.

If REAL streetfighting is a specialist subject then an expert opinion might be valuable. In Shorinji Kempo there is a clear syllabus for instruction of Goho, Juho and Howa, yet Instructors are, as far as I know, left to their own devices when it comes to developing teaching methods for "Self-Defense" (I refer to Real Streetfight-style scraps, or attacks by drunkards and idiots, not the Ninja 10th Dan assailant who appears before you in a flash of fire and smoke carrying a sword and wearing Tabi).

In Kappo, there was/is the famous Bando Sensei, who was featured in the BBC Documentary series "Way of the Warrior". He was shown lecturing Busen students at Hombu on weak point strikes, then methods of resuscitation. While all kenshi are expected to develop these skills, he was considered the expert.

Given Shorinji Kempo's initial history in post-war Japan, clearing the Yakuza from Tadotsu, I imagine that there might be some veteran kenshi well-qualified in street-fighting. Who were/are these experts? Perhaps it is it not considered appropriate to venerate/honour people who have excelled in the darker aspects of our art. I wonder how much of their first-hand experience has been filtered down through the generations of Instructors.

Or should we expect all Branch Masters to have some amount of personal experience of Real Fighting?

tony leith
14th August 2002, 16:23
Mercifully my personal experience of 'street fighting' has been confined to one inconclusive scuffle on the streets of Glasgow (two kicks, and I heroically ran away -incidentally the fitness to do this seems to me to be one of the real self defence benefits of training), and one restraint technique applied to somebody on the London underground. This in about eleven years of practice.

Nevertheless I have confidence in the validity of the techniques I have helped teach as a means of self defence, mostly from the principles of hokei i.e. they represent the refined product of generations of practice by masters, and as such effectively the total of lifetimes worth of combat training. One of the advantages of being human is that we have sophisticated means of passing knowledge from one to another, and don't have to get everything from personal experience. Ability to apply these principles in practice will vary from person to person, of course, and training in the ultimately safe environment of the dojo will only prepare you up to a point for the shock of somebody actually trying to do you harm..

The alternative to trusting the techniques is presumably to put yourself in the position of either having to harm somebody else or having them do harm to you to find out how practical the techniques are. Again, this is the kind of knowledge i would prefer to pick up vicariously, partially because I have ethical reservations about doing harm in such a cause, but mostly because it's too damned dangerous for such a marginal benefit.

Kempo does seem to me to be more practically orientated than some of the other budo, from our basic gamae which looks suspicously like a boxing guard to the insistence on ren han ko rather than assuming that one blow will fell an attacker. None of this of course will do any good in practice unless it's at the level of conditioned reflex, which is why good kihon training - soti and tan en - is fundemental. I would also argue that technically focussed impact training with dos, Thai kick pads, focus mitts etc. are also essential for practical purposes.

Tony Leith

Tripitaka of AA
14th August 2002, 21:38
That is a beautifully crafted response Tony. I found myself agreeing with each point and nodding my head in agreement. Thanks for the post.

If you had told me this in a Howa lecture, I'm sure you would have convinced me too. Do you find however, that students have difficulty in trusting your faith until you cite your own practical experiences (those two events seem fairly useful for a teaching example)? Is this a dilemma for an honest Martial Art Instructor with a conscience? Moral integrity and Budo itself make experience of streetfighting seem like a failure, unless you can say that these experiences occurred before training began. But then you can't show that the kempo training has made any difference to the likely outcome of a similar situation.

I'm with you, I'd like to hear a few stories about some other poor schmuck. Let them go through the pain and suffering, then I'll just listen to the advice. Seems like an excellent way to avoid violence :D

colin linz
15th August 2002, 00:27
There does appear to be differences in some of the waza when examining them from a fighting viewpoint. I believe this style of training is termed goshin jutsu. Certainly there has been a change in the waza over the last decade or so; today’s training places much more emphasis on balance, rather than just pain.

Some years ago I had a bussen student staying with me for about six months, he showed me a number of different ways to do different techniques. They had practiced these at Hombu; he referred to them as randori style. I have also had some exposure to other clubs that due to their location need to teach a waza that are effective because of the dangers of their environment.

I believe that the waza taught in the syllabus is designed to teach and enforce a number of other elements other than just fighting, as well as providing a measure of injury prevention. For this reason it is important to practice this way. From my experience achieving a textbook perfect waza in real life is difficult, there are to many variables and usually you lack room to move properly. However you can still produce effective waza using the knowledge that you have gained in training, they may not resemble any waza that you have been taught but will incorporate elements from your training experience.

One example of “randori style” that I can easily explain is chidori gaeshi. The syllabus way is to do uchi uke then mei ichi. However the version that was shown to me was pared down to just mei ichi. This action still blocks the opponents tsuki, but your mei ichi is much faster. I don’t know if this would be good to teach inexperienced Kenshi because of their lack of practice in other areas such as body movement, and basic blocking principles. This type of training can be useful in adding variety and interest to lessons, but I don’t think it would be good to teach to often.

Cheers
Colin

Steve Williams
16th August 2002, 22:49
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
In Kappo, there was/is the famous Bando Sensei, who was featured in the BBC Documentary series "Way of the Warrior". He was shown lecturing Busen students at Hombu on weak point strikes, then methods of resuscitation

Hi David

I know that you have been "out of the loop" for a while, but just to inform you (with a head held low...) that Bando sensei "passed on" early last year.

More details In this thread (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4972)

luar
17th August 2002, 13:52
Gassho:

As originator of this thread, it makes me happy to see this discussion reawoken. It has allowed to review the progress I have made in the last 9 months. The issues that have been recently posted are the very same things I have been thinking considering our dojo has been dedicating itself to randori practice for the past 2 months.

Anyway I saw this show last night on The Learning Channel and it talks about the praticality of the martial arts in a real situation and reviews several styles and approaches. For example, Muay Thai, Brazilian JuJitsu, Krav Maga, etc. However in the context of what Tony Kehoe eloquently posted, the show does talk about how the importance of the disciplin of learning an art can bring to you in a real situation.

I did record the show and yet to see it in its entirely but I enjoyed it immensely. The URL for this show is

http://tlc.discovery.com/schedule/episode.jsp?episode=551329000


Martial Arts - The Real Story


Go beyond Hollywood's interpretation of martial arts as a macho, no-holds-barred contest to learn the cultural and religious contexts from which the techniques arose. Travel the villages of China and India where the ancient arts are practiced today.