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Fred Stakem
5th November 2001, 18:57
Over the years i have seen a lot of people
knock book learning in the ma. We have all
seen enough people who would rather spend
class discussing why they practice
bujustu rather than budo...or better yet the
taiji master who knows more chinese than
the guy at the chinese take out, but still
can't do the short form. Sometimes it's
so bad its almost laughable. The problem
I see now is people don't attempt
to learn things from books...as if
because their master didn't teach it
to them then they can't learn it on
their own.

But what about all of the good things that
have been learned from books. And I am not
just talking about philosophies. I can
honestly say that after practicing ma
for quite a while it would be better to
learn from a book than what you get at
your typical Mcdojo. I know some books
where the form is so top notch I study
it form hours. I am quite proud to say
that I have learned techniques from books.
It keeps me thinking and analyzing the
different ways in which people practice
ma without going to get a black belt in
all those ma.

Just wondering what people thought on the
topic. And what books people have learned
a lot from.

Fred Stakem

Walker
6th November 2001, 00:07
What I find alarming is not so much trying to learn a martial art from books, but a surprising lack of general knowledge on the part of practitioners. Some of the whoppers tossed about by people in various arts are astounding and cured by the least bit of familiarity with some basic history and general knowledge of the various arts, some math and science, and literature.
Problem = not enough book learning.

PeteBoyes
6th November 2001, 09:51
There are too few teachers of Kata in Judo. Therefore, Kawaishi's "Complete Seven Katas" has become a almost a bible for me.

Pete.

MarkF
6th November 2001, 09:52
Of course you can learn from books. One needs only to see the limit, or the value it has. As to tecnnique, I do not think you can learn from it, but you certainly can learn basic principles, history, who, where, or why.

But like the Internet, not everything published has value. In fact, I'd guess most of it doesn't. Having the ability to separate what is and what isn't, is a gift. Use it.

There is an old saying: "Do not believe anything you see or hear, and only and nth of what you read." That may not be worded exactly, but I've heard that for most of my life. In degrees, it is pretty damn close.

Mark

popupsoldier
7th November 2001, 03:10
Ah - a question always on the mind of most martial artists - especially beginners..

My opinion is this: books are a wonderful guide and resource to have as a set of notes more than a learning tool perse. The learning tool should be a teacher, and the book - a reference
guide (notes o prompt learning).:wave:

Fred Stakem
7th November 2001, 05:17
What I find alarming is not so much trying to learn a martial art from books, but a surprising lack of general knowledge on the part of practitioners

Oh so true...but in my opinion it is not just the ma comunity.
Anti-intellectualism is a sad fact of modern society. We live in a society that trys to appeal to peoples emotion instead of intellect.

My opinion is this: books are a wonderful guide and resource to have as a set of notes more than a learning tool perse. The learning tool should be a teacher, and the book - a reference guide

Or maybe the teacher should be a guide and the student's
intellect and reason should be the learning tool. I have had
some good teachers that have shown me techniques....but my
best teachers showed me endless variations of techniques and
told me to go try it out and explore the different possibilities.
Sad fact is that most people don't do a whole lot of thinking
beyond what their teacher tells them. I hope when I teach
one day my students are not limited by my experiences....
they should do some on their own.

As to tecnnique, I do not think you can learn from it, but you certainly can learn basic principles, history, who, where, or why.

Some of the more difficult forms or systems might be hard to
learn from a book. If you don't have someone to throw it
is hard to learn judo. I have seen people get by with
'judo dummies'....it isn't pretty, but I don't think you should
spoil a students drive to learn. The hard part is learning
the rythme, speed, and timing which are not shown in a book.
If the student has learned a martial art they might be able
to adapt these things already known to the new forms in a book.
But sometimes the very fact that a student doesn't know
these things makes them think and experiment more.
I have learned more being away from a teacher and practicing
on my own than when I am in a ma class. Too often in class
people just repeat and don't think of all of the whys.
Some of the best stuff I have learned from books is the
variations of joint locks....it seems no matter how many times
you have seen a joint lock there is someone out there with a
neat variation. All of the thinking and experimenting helps
to bring clarity which doesn't always come about by repeating.

Fred Stakem

Don Cunningham
7th November 2001, 17:48
I agree that books are fantastic in combination with regular practice and a good instructor. Kata, for example, often requires frequent reference to authorities instead of relying on the memory of the instructor, especially regarding the finer points.

Sometimes books are the only option when trying to research those arts which have no instructors or none within a reasonable distance. I wouldn't want to rely solely on books, but sometimes it is necessary.

Gabe litz
10th November 2001, 07:03
If you ask me there is only two way to learn and thats to first learn the art that fits you be it by book or by teacher and the second is to actually use the techniqes.
Well thats just my opinion. :redhot:

Paburo
20th December 2001, 17:05
Hi!! i have like three month in aikido class and my classes are very difficult cause every day i go is something different to learn. my sensei keeps going on different techniques everyday and it seems that i don't even have time to learn them, So here's comes the book part, i go home and i use as reference a couple of books from my school i go around those techniques i didn't even have time to practice at the dojo, so i start going around it application philosophy, and i practice at home, when i get to my dojo my sensei sometimes say, " you have a good memory" or "maaannn!! you're a fast learner" is not that is the way i approach the books. :D

Pablo Rosado

Jon S.
23rd December 2001, 17:20
I think if a new student attempts to learn exculsively from books, his abilities will be incomplete at best. Books are great for someone who already understands techniques because they can illuminate endless variations. Though the danger of this is when you focus on too many variations at once, because when it comes time to act there are too many possibilities so the mind gets confused as to which way to go, and by the time it decides the opportunity is lost. For newer students a book can be useful as references to techniques that they've already worked with, such as Paburo is doing, and it may even convey some subtleties that weren't previously understood.


"The hard part is learning the rythme, speed, and timing which are not shown in a book."

This I believe is a key point.


"Anti-intellectualism is a sad fact of modern society. We live in a society that trys to appeal to peoples emotion instead of intellect."

How true. Fred, may I quote you at my leisure?


Jon Small

Ishinguy
24th December 2001, 03:17
Hi Fred, I too beleive that books can be useful learning tools. I am an Orange belt in karate studying a system that is basicaly made up from Shotokan, Wado-ryu and Kyokushinkai,
Would you mind recommending some reading material for me please.I have read Mas Oyama's Complete Karate course and am currently reading Patrick McCarthy's translation of the Bubishi but frankly that is way beyond me ! I enjoyed Mas Oyama and anything along those lines would be interesting.
Thanks and Merry Christmas
nick B

Ben_Holmes
25th December 2001, 05:40
I can't help it, I just *have* to throw in a commercial here!

Try http://www.bestjudo.com for Judo Book Reviews. I have a small list of other martial art books as well, but I concentrate on Judo.

Hope no-one's offended by my blatant attempts at advertising here!

red_fists
25th December 2001, 06:12
Interesting Topic.

At my School we got Form Books for the students. These are used in Conjunction with the training in Class.

The Books are simply a collection of movement names and the Form in Pictures.

Most newcomers can't make head or tail of those things, but the more experienced Students love them for because the are used to memorise the movement sequence and can be used as a way of checking foot and hand positions.

OTOH, there are plenty of books out there that speak in terms that a beginning student will never follow.

Example:
The Tai Chi Classics say: Lead with intent and the body follows.

My Instructor says: Visualize the Pose you should be in and your Body will fill the visualised Image.

Both talk the same thing, but use completely different terminology.

And the same counts for Books aswell, what works for A might not do anything for B.

Books are good for learning the non-physical parts of a system/style, but cannot teach timing, distance and cannot check your progress nor correct you.

So, yes, Books are an important part of study but best be used as a supplemental tool to an Instructor.
Or by experienced Students.

Said that Books can also lead a Student down the wrong path or simply confuse him more than is neccesary.
Especially if the Book is by somebody who's ideas differ than his Instructors.

Just my pondering on this X-Mas Day.
Have a good one everyone. :wave:

MarkF
25th December 2001, 10:51
Originally posted by Ben_Holmes
I can't help it, I just *have* to throw in a commercial here!

Try http://www.bestjudo.com for Judo Book Reviews. I have a small list of other martial art books as well, but I concentrate on Judo.

Hope no-one's offended by my blatant attempts at advertising here!

Ben,
It wan't advertising at all if you don't use words such as "advertising" in your post.;) Next time, give the link saying there are "book reviews at this site" or something similar. If you want to be specific say "See 'such and such' review at http://www.bestjudo.com ," then giving the author's name, even if your own.

Now I would add a small list of two or three web sites for this purpose, such as http://www.bstkd.com/judo.htm along with it. Big Sky judo also has a nice list of books and reviews.

I hope you don't find my "blatant attempt" to get in my review of your post here.:toast:

The Best Judo web site IS a good one for its stated purpose. It also has a message board for the discussion of these books. Pitctures are also added from time to time.

Mark

Joseph Svinth
26th December 2001, 03:57
Nick --

The books by Nakayama are nice for JKA versions of Shotokan kata, while the books by Higaonna are nice for Goju Ryu kata. For taikyoku, though, you'll need Gichin Funakoshi's book (Karate-do Nyumon, I think it is), as Gosei Yamaguchi's books are out-of-print.

Get the taikyoku and heian series down, and you'll also know your basic Tang Soo Do hyung.

Ishinguy
26th December 2001, 04:29
Thanks for the info Joseph.
Nick B

will szlemko
26th December 2001, 09:17
Hi all,

I think books are an essential part of the learning process, but the instructor must be carefull. In our dojo there is a required book for each kyu level up through shodan. These books are selected for their contribution in terms of philosophy. In addition each kyu level receives handouts from the instructor most weeks. The handouts include readings, vacabulary, requirement list, anatamy, physiology, history, etc. The students are responsible for all of this information on the tests. For beginning students this is great, trying to learn technique from a book is pointless. For more advanced students technique learning from a book can be invaluable. I have learned may techniques from a book. They are almost assuredly not the way the author performs them but generally the concept is the same, and more importantly it has made me examine my own art deeper.

will

kusanku
30th December 2001, 02:38
In 1964, I began at a young age, studying self defense from jiujitsu books, with some friends. We learned a few moves that proved useful and relatively safe, and won a few harmless scuffles with local school bullies.:-)

It was nice but the first time I met a genuine martial arts practitioner, I found out how woefully inadequate such things were.This was a good thing to learn, as well.

In 1967, I began formal instruction under a nidan and sandan, in Kodokan Judo, the whole enchiladfa, and this for four and a half years of training.

With my training I used a book called the Secrets of Judo by Watanabe and Avakian, no, its not a mystical compilation of hidden technique but rather an analysis of judo waza in terms of physics and body dynamics, which went right along with the instruction I was receiving. My teachers also noticed that I was doing well quickly, and asked what I was doing. When I showed them the book, they both said it was about the best one out there for people doing beginning judo under actual instructors.

This showed me the actual use of martial arts technical manuals, that they had supplemental uses.

Later I began study of an Okinawan Karate style that to this day, there are not many books if any written on.Most karate books at this time were about Shotokan, and this did not at all go with what I was being taught. I at first attempted to understand the art I was learning in terms of Nakayama and other books, but this did not work and was in fact, counter-productive, so after a month of getting nowhere, I decided to basically forget the book and do what the teacher said to do and himself was doing.

This because I noticed that the teacher could quite easily whip me in kumite, despite many interim informal karate matches while doing judo, with people less skilled at karate than was my teacher.I was still young of course or would have figured this out much sooner.

I decided that my teacher knrew what he was doing, and that the karate books I had did not cover what we were doing at all. One month later, my progress was very rapid and I was helpinmg newer students.

Two experiences , one with book that was what my teachers were doing, and one with books which contradicted what my teacher was doing.

Even later, shorin ryu, just listen to the teachers, many years later, I got a book on it.Very helpful but no way could I have learned the style from the book with no teachers, glad that I had years of practice before ever getting that book.

Three different takes on books and here's a fourth:

After almost four decades of learning martial arts, books on things like chin na, jiujitsu(full circle) and so forth, are very helpful in generating ideas for new techniques in my own styles and practices, as Will Szlemko mentions these are not done as the authors of the books do them, but with the body mechanics and precautions that I have learned after many years. Same with videos, one can get some ideas, that is about it. But nothing beats hands on instruction, books and vids and cd's supplement it.

Finally, let me respond to the charge that anti intellectualism abounds currently in the US.I have heard this repeatedly, and I wonder how this squares with the reality of the internet, free books and downloads, and cd burning capabilities. Books that until recently only academics, scholars and rich collectors had access to, are now available for anyone with a connection and a computer, a rom reader and internet.

I have just moments ago, finished downloading and burning onto a cd, a program containing nine hundred and forty seven books and documents, many of which would be far beyond my means to acquire.I put the cd into a folder that clips into a notebook that I can carry with me wherever I go, and can put into a computer and have instant knowledge available in a cross referenced searchable database or just read, or even print, whatever I wish.

It took a full ten minutes to burn, check and label the library on disc.

Anti Intellectualism?Do you really think so?Or is it a knee jerk rallying cry by people who fancy themselves as elite members of society when they discover that suddenly because of what is available on the internet, their ph. d's might not convey the authority they once did?Or that their snobbery can now be challenged by anyone who can read, afford fifty cents for a cd with hundreds of volumes on it, and systematically study and persevere, in whatever field, on a level playing field that only now exists?

Anti intellectualism? What does that even mean? A distrust of those who feel themselves to be mentally superior to others? Perhaps falsely so?

I think that may have been true, in the Seventies, that seemed a particularly brainless time:D, but its the Twenty First Century now, and children in kindergarten have been being taught computer usage for over a decade now, and I think, that to say, that anti intellectualism now exists, widespread in today's society, is ridiculous.

I think it can now truly be said , as the educator Stanwood Coob said some time ago, that if anyone says 'I never truly had an education'. it can be said to them in return, if they have net access in addition to library access that this quote referred to in America, 'you never truly wanted one.'

Anyone who doubts this assertion, please do a Google search on Books online, literature online, and online libraries, and discover just how much free education is in fact, available via the medium by which we are even now, communicating.

Or just go to Books Online, Project Gutenberg or the www virtual library.

Anti-intellectualism? If so, it won't be here for long.Anyone with computer and internet access can now study virtually any branch of knowledge and literature, science, math or even martial arts, if they use discernment, for free and in a depth that would have been impossible even in some Universities, until only recently.

I do think there are a large number of idiots and people pushing agendas on the net, as well as flamers, trolls and such.
I think these peopole can be destructive of discourse and could be said to be anti intellectual and even anti civilization becayse someone didn't teach them manners.:D

But I think this is a stage we are passing through.Basically, the internet fills the promise that radio and television failed to, and even that schools and universities fall often far short of.On the internet, one can read what one wants as one wants, when and how one wants, or download it to disk or drive, and save it, print it, or transfer it as one requires.

The funny thing is this: The great classics of Western and Eastern literature,are uncopyrighted and available on line.So, the more recent trash isn't polluting the literature sites.

Great educational institutions are now sharing free, some of them , courses and other things.

Anti-intellectualism? Not even, my friends. Not even.

The other day the net connection was down and I had to walk to the nearby library to ask them if they had a copy of the Enneads of Plotinus, and they did. One cigarrette and cofee stained copy of the battered tome was produced. When I returned home, the connection was up, I did a fast Google search for the Enneads, and came up with a beautifully formated etext, of the very translation that was in the library, in about twenty seconds flat.

Plus, any other ancient text you could imagine from Greek classics.

Where before this, could you get that without leaving home?

No. Not anti intellectualism. Martial ignorance exists, and it too, can be cured.The first time someone puts a good library on the net, it will be.

In European martial arts, it already exists at www.thehaca.com and other such linked sites.Check under manuals and get twelve hundred year old sword fighting books with illustrations including unarmed techniques of battlefield defense.

regards,
John

BudoChris
6th January 2002, 00:47
It's OK to learn techniques from books. That is what they are there for. But, do not consider yourself to be an expert in a style just because you are reading it.:nono:

Some good books:
Small Circle Jujitsu by Wally Jay
Tao of Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee
The Law and Martial Arts
Secrets of the Samuri


Chris:smokin:

Tal S
12th January 2002, 21:09
I know this is off topic, but I have to respond to the anti-intellectual discussion mentioned earlier.

The term anti-intellectualism does not refer to the lack of information nor to the inaccessibility of information. Anti-intellectualism usually means a general disdain for non mainstream learning (liberal arts, fine arts, planning, ecology, etc...) and reflective thought and those who pursue such endeavors. I believe it is a very real phenomenon in American society. You need look no further than the disparaging references made in the last national political campaigns to the "cultural elites" who inhabit New England and the "left" coast.

You may also see evidence of it in the claims made by business leaders, as well as the working class, that no "eggheads" who sit around studying problems can find the answers to those problems as good as the average Joe who has "common" sense could. This sentiment is often applied to everything from far reaching topics such as automobile safety guidelines to workplace safety regulations, or simple matters such as how to change a baby's diaper properly.

Anti-intellectualism has existed in American society for decades, it is not new. The Populist Party in the 1890's had at its core of principles a distrust of educated experts, government officials and "outside intervention" into the affairs of the rural populace.

There is much more information that could be discussed about this topic. Several books have published about it recently. I am sorry for the lengthy, off topic reply, but this is an issue that I care alot about.

Tal Stanfield

BudoChris
15th January 2002, 21:44
I've got a question for anyone that wishes to respond.
I've noticed my iaido instructor goes back to a book when I have a question about a kata that I am learning. It bothered me for a while that he had to go back to a book to remember a kata. He knows what he is doing as far as technique, but the kata that I learn are coming from out of a book. Is this something that I should be conserned about?
Thanks,
Chris Schimmeck