Shinkage Ryu Vids

[ScottUK]

A buddy sent me this URL knowing I'm into Iai:

http://www.noblehouse.afternet.com/sword_tech/tvideo.html

Anyone seen these? Are they any good?

Scott

[Meik Skoss]

Weeeell... caveat emptor. This group *purports* to do Shinkage-ryu, but I have found no evidence that there's any link between them and the kenjutsu school founded by Kamiizumi Ise-no-kami Nobutsuna.

When I first encountered them, via personal communication while I was still living in Japan, I questioned the individual about both his teacher and the group's provenance and got a very bizarre story. I asked several senior Shinkage-ryu teachers about it and got responses ranging from bemusement to flat-out guffaws. The general consensus was: it's a legitimate ryu, not!!

I've also looked at their website (it's since gone through several iterations) and it seemed to me and some colleagues who also examined it, that the whole thing is pretty much made up out of a lot of earnest intent and not much else. Would I pay money for these videos? No. Would I watch them if they were available? Er, maybe... it'd depend on whether or not there was anything else I wanted to do with my time. Should you spend time and money on these things? Your call.

[Earl Hartman]

Scott:

In addition to the obviously suspect nature of the sword photos on the website in question, to which Meik has already alluded, I must also say that the "kyujutsu" stuff they show is unlike anything I have ever seen. The equipment and the methodology look just like something someone might make up if they had seen a few pictures and read a few books. I have been doing kyudo for about 30 years now, and I have never seen anyone shoot a bow as they show it being shot, a bow of the proportions of the one pictured, or a shooting glove like the one shown. The photos of "proper" technique are, to put it mildly, laughable, and the model in the pictures is obviously a rank amateur. This leads me to suspect everything that they are selling. Also, AFAIK, kyujutsu is not included in the Shinkage Ryu curriculum, so its presence on a purportedly "Shinkage Ryu" website is puzzling, to say the least.

[Meik Skoss]

Oh, did I also mention that there was a section devoted to an art called "yarijutsu" on the Noble House website, at least for a short while? I wonder if that was ever changed to "sodo"as folks there organization got better (?) at Japanese...

In other words... yaknowwhatI'msayin' here?

[Earl Hartman]

Meik:

The "yarijutsu" thing reminds of a time many years ago when I went to the Renaissance Pleasure Faire out here. For some reason, the archery booth (where you pay a few bucks to shoot arrows) was decorated with banners in Japanese characters reading "kyudo". When I mentioned this to the young fellow manning the booth, who appeared to be Japanese-American, he got really POed and insisted that the characters were not pronounced "kyudo" but were properly pronounced "yumido". After trying and failing to talk any sense into him, I shot my arrows, and as I was leaving, he waited until I was a good distance away from the booth before screaming out "Yumido!!" at the top of his lungs. Guess he really needed to get in the last "shot".

What a maroon.

[ScottUK]

Thanks for the replies Meik/Earl.

The reason I sent this link here is that i'm quite interested in Iai (or any other solo) kata of all kinds. I study Seitei & MJER Iai but being an ultimately nosey/curious person, I make sure I get to see as many different forms as possible.

At competitions I have been present at, I have seen Muso Shinden Ryu, Shinkage Ryu, Toyama Ryu, Hoki Ryu and TSKSR Iai forms performed, as well as kae waza from the style I practice, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

While I am just starting to learn the Chuden set of kata of MJER, I'd like to HAVE A GO at kata from other styles. I understand your standpoint of 'go to Japan' and other peoples' attitude towards learning from videos or books. I devote a good chunk of my time to MA, learning MJER Iai*, Hontai Yoshin Ryu kenjutsu** and once a month, practicing Kyudo***.

I'm not gonna claim grandmastership of anything I practice, I just feel that as my swordsmanship is starting to make sense to me now, I'd like to practice a few other styles, purely out of curiousity. Whether I attain any level of competency or not (doubt it without a sensei), I'd like to have a go nontheless. Where would you recommend to start? Are there any good books/videos to get me started? Let me say once more that this is for my own enjoyment only. I only want to have a go at the forms, not try to learn them and pass them on as correct technique to unsuspecting fools when I agree with you, they cannot be PROPERLY LEARNT from books/vids. There seems to be a lot of tat on the market - are there any worth a look?

No flames from the purists please!

Best wishes,

Scott

* courtesy of the BKA - affiliated with the ZNKR
** a bit suspect, this one - excellent teacher, but not even sure ODACHI technique exists within HYR syllabus
*** The London Kyudo Society holds extended classes once a month - 280mile round trip but worth it!

[fowlerl]

I was quite surprised by the quality of the responses that I found here. The "my sensei is better than your sensei" and "never heard of them" and "looks so unlike anything I've seen" responses are best left to martial arts usenet groups and not here. :nono: Very low quality, very narrow minded.

As a former student of the dojo I can say that they are sincere in their desire to train, and train in a very "tradition" dojo atmosphere. The dojo is not 'open' and many have been turned down after asking if they could train, and many have been turned away after they started because of improper attitude. The dojo is not there to stroke anyone's ego, nor to breed "samurai-wannabees". Each year the dojo does dozens of demonstrations in and round Edmonton, and makes donations to many charities.

So you haven't heard of them before. You are not the center of the martial arts world. I never heard of Meik until recently, am I to presume that he is a fly-by-night egomaniac? If I really cared, I would plan a trip to meet and train with him. And, if it means all that to you to find out if what is taught at the Noble House dojo is real, then go and find out. Every summer students come from the USA to Edmonton Canada to train under sensei, and so could you. If you don't care enough, then fine, but enough of this foolishness.

And to the question of the videos. I don't even know if there are any copies left, very few were actually made. If you find that they are unavailable, I have a couple kicking around that I could lend to you (yes, lend, I would hope to get them back). I think that the tapes are little on the slim side, about 30 minutes each. But then, I bought a Hojojutsu tape that was over an hour long, and I wish they would have cut it down to just the technique. I think that the quality of the kenjutsu tapes are average. Meik is right that there are 'rank amateurs' in the photos, and in the tapes as well. The dojo was only started in 1992 when sensei came over from Japan, and the tapes were made in 1996-1997, so the most senior student would have been 5 yrs in training. However, the content of the tapes is excellent. The techniques are broken down, shown from different angles and very easy to follow. Of course you won't be able to 'master' anything from the tapes, as you yourself acknowledged, but it will give you something to think about.

I have been training in various martial arts for 28 yrs now, in karate, judo, kenjutsu, arnis/eskrima, aikido and held advanced ranking in karate and brown belt in kenjutsu. I have come across many poor and inept instructors/senseis, but I can say from experience that Noble House is teaching traditional kenjutsu, and that sensei is teaching out of his love for his art.

cheers :toast:
Lawrence Fowler
Calgary AB Canada

[Earl Hartman]

Fowler:

While I am sure that Meik can defend himself quite well, since I seem to have stumbled onto your reply first, I just thought that I would let you know that Meik lived in Japan for about 25 years and trained in the Yagyu Kai under the instruction of Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei, who is, I believe, the 22nd generation of the Owari line of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, which is considered the main line. I also have been lucky enough to be allowed to train there, although I am very, very junior; and all Meik and I are saying is that the pictures on the website seem to bear little resemblance to the techniques that we have learned from Yagyu Sensei. A good deal of the terminology is also different. Meik can be more specific if he wishes.

Regarding the kyujutsu shown on the website, I have been training in kyudo for 30 years, and I have made it a point to do my best to research traditional methods and schools. These schools are extremely well documented in Japan, if one cares to do even the most minimal research, and the modern masters of many of the recognized branches of the traditional schools still extant have contributed heavily to various books written about kyudo/kyujutsu and its development. The techniques shown on the Noble House web page are very much at variance with what I have seen in the past, and so regardless of the sincerity of the practitioners, which I am sure is quite real, I have to reserve judgement on the provenance of the techniques shown, inasmuch as the school of kyujutsu is not identified.

[fowlerl]

Hartman,

No defence is required, as no accusations were made.

The long and short of it is, 'websurfing evaluations' of dojos is paramount to 'armchair quarterbacking'... a lot of hot air for attention. If you want to know it, do it. Period.

[Earl Hartman]

Fowler:

I simply stated that what was shown on the Noble House website does not bear much resemblance to the Shinkage Ryu that is taught by Yagyu Sensei. It is as simple as that. I made no judgements about the sincerity or dedication of the students who attend the dojo there.

I do want to know it, and I am doing it, thank you very much.