Proprieties of wearing mon...

[David T Anderson]

Recently I conceived the idea of marking some of my gear and clothing with a mon of my own design...either a stylized acorn or oak leaf...based on the Anderson family badge, which features an acorn-bearing oak tree.

I mentioned this to my Sensei and he was quite disapproving of the whole matter...apparently this would qualify as a major 'not done'. I didn't argue the point, and I guess the whole idea is out the window now, but I'm curious.

Aside from mon historically connected to certain individuals and families, or copyrighted as trademarks, I thought that wearing mon was a fairly casual kind of thing...rather like wearing a particular Scottish tartan. In any case, I didn't see anything wrong with putting a mon I designed myself on my own clothing and gear. Am I wrong about this? Or is it merely tasteless for a gaijin to ape a Japanese custom in this way...?

Thanks for your attention....

[Charles Mahan]

Funny you should bring this up. I recently monified my family crest and had it embroidered on my Montsuki. It is a single lion rampant inscribed within a circle. It looks just like any other Mon from a distance, but up close it is obviously a little different. Ray-sensei approved, but tells me that it is certain to turn a few heads in Japan. Ray-Sensei has his family crest embroidered on his Montsuki only instead of a circle he kept the shield shape for the border.

In any case, the design should be white on black. Don't try to preserve your family colors. But as with everything else, follow your sensei. He is in a better position to judge your particular situation within your style and organization.

[Jeff Hamacher]

i suspect that taking a foreign coat of arms and superimposing it on a japanese tradition (embroidering said crest on kimono) wouldn't sit so well with a number of japanese. i'm not suggesting that it shouldn't be done, or that a non-japanese shouldn't create or adopt a "japanese-style" coat of arms for their own use; everyone's free to do what they like. still, i think it would be considered a bit strange.

as an aside, i more commonly hear the term kamon in reference to a family crest rather than simply mon, although both appear to be correct.

[hyaku]

I usually wear the family crest of the decendants of the Lord of the area as demonstrations are usually in connection with a living tradition.

I recently did a demonstration on my own behalf. Everyone was concerned what Kamon I would wear and were worried that I didnt have one to use.

I am very fortunate to have a simple family crest of three cicadas. I simply converted it to white on black and wore it to everyones delight.

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Hyoho4.html

Actually making one seems unrealistic to me. Contacting the heraldic socety would perhaps bring forth results.

Nowadays its perhaps more common to use Kamon to advertize a business or shop than actually wear it.

On the opposite hand Japanese seem to take a delight in taking Westerners names and trying to convert them into some strange meaning with Chinese characters dont they. That really annoys me.

Hyakutake Colin

[David T Anderson]

Originally posted by Charles Mahan
Funny you should bring this up. I recently monified my family crest and had it embroidered on my Montsuki. It is a single lion rampant inscribed within a circle.
In any case, the design should be white on black. Don't try to preserve your family colors. But as with everything else, follow your sensei. He is in a better position to judge your particular situation within your style and organization.

Hi Charles -- Thanks for the story. I've only been training at the one dojo for a year, so I certainly can't presume on Sensei's good nature to put up with my own eccentricities. I'm glad that I wasn't too far out in left field thinking of this, anyhow...I was worried that I had committed some awful gaffe...like wearing replica Balmoral tartan to a highland games or something.

[David T Anderson]

Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
i suspect that taking a foreign coat of arms and superimposing it on a japanese tradition (embroidering said crest on kimono) wouldn't sit so well with a number of japanese. i'm not suggesting that it shouldn't be done, or that a non-japanese shouldn't create or adopt a "japanese-style" coat of arms for their own use; everyone's free to do what they like. still, i think it would be considered a bit strange.

as an aside, i more commonly hear the term kamon in reference to a family crest rather than simply mon, although both appear to be correct.

Hi Jeff -- thanks for the advice. I have done a bit of research in the matter, and while the oak [kashiwa] is well known as an emblem, I never saw an acorn used in such a way, and I thought it would make a reasonably authentic, yet original kamon. {I've seen 'mon' and 'kamon' used interchangably too...} I was also thinking that oak leaves crossed, similar to the cross-hawk feather design would be nice. Eccentric, yes...but many people might think that a Westerner pursuing Budo at all is eccentric...I can handle that...[smile].

[IchiRiKen1]

is typically misunderstood by Americans. Not coming from a heritage resplendent with symbols to identify entire families as well as individuals, we simply haven't dealt with the issue enough to grasp it fully...

A person of rank had a coat of arms. That symbol represented his lineage (which son was he? 1st, 2nd, etc.), perhaps characteristics of his family and their deeds, etc. When he married, his coat was merged with that of his wife's family (women were entitled to bear heraldric designs, though where a man had a shield, women had lozenges), and a new design was born. Then, children of those parents would add to the design to personalize it further.

Thus, entire national registries were required to maintain any degree of order in regards to the legitimacy of coats of arms.

It is common to see heraldry being sold that are attached to family names, and the unsuspecting will buy a poster or book emblazoned with what they think is THEIR family emblem. That is typically NOT the case, and so instead they wander about ignorant of the "no-no" they have just committed.

It is my understanding that in England, Ireland and Scotland a person can be charged and convicted for wearing coats of arms that are not theirs by law and heritage.

While I don't believe the law is as restrictive in Japan, the mon or kamon is only worn by family members, not some assuming gaijin...

Also, it is my understanding that an American would be perfectly fine registering a new family coat of arms with one of the national registries in Ireland, Scotland or England in order to wear said coat legally in those countries. However, a good amount of research must go into developing said coat, as it may not replicate a previously existing coat from another family...

I apologize if any of my info is inaccurate. It has been a while since I worried about this stuff...

[red_fists]

Hi.

Here is another thought.

Fine you create your "mon", but what happens if you come to Japan and find out that the "mon" you created belongs to a respected but now disfunct Family Clan.

Not exactly a "mon" story, but it might show some of the problems you might get:
Some Years back me and a few friends decided to start our own MCC.
So we started to sketch out "Colors" and decidd to choose a Name.
Finally we got it finished and headed over to the local Shop to get the Colors made, when another Biker sees our Logo and asked us if we had resurrected an old Club (that had a BAD Reputation) since our Club name was the same.

That is another reason why national registries ae a good idea, so that you can verify that the "mon" you have does not conflict with anybody elses.

Just my 2 Yen worth.

[Ben Bartlett]

A person of rank had a coat of arms. That symbol represented his lineage (which son was he? 1st, 2nd, etc.), perhaps characteristics of his family and their deeds, etc. When he married, his coat was merged with that of his wife's family (women were entitled to bear heraldric designs, though where a man had a shield, women had lozenges), and a new design was born. Then, children of those parents would add to the design to personalize it further.

From what I've read, at least in England (I don't know about other countries), coats of arms were associated with a title, not a family. So, for instance, if you were Lord of Kent, you had a particular coat of arms. It didn't matter if you were a descendent of the previous Lord of Kent or not; if the title switched from one lineage to another, for whatever reason, the new Lord would use the coat of arms for Kent, and the family of the old lord would have to stop using said coat of arms. I didn't realize there was actually a law against it, but it would make sense in this case, because you'd basically be declaring yourself a lord of a particular piece of land. Mind you, I'm not an expert, and my sources on this particular subject may have been inaccurate, I don't know.

That being said, the mon in Japan is definitely associated with a clan. I know everyone in my school has a patch with the mon of the head of the school, to show our association with him. Maybe the reason it would be frowned upon to wear your own mon is because it would somehow not be showing proper respect to the head of whatever school you belong to? I know if you're in a ryuha, you're part of an organization with a lineage, and it would make sense for the mon to reflect that lineage... not sure if it's the same for gendai arts. Anyway, that's all total speculation on my part, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

[David T Anderson]

Originally posted by Ben Bartlett


Maybe the reason it would be frowned upon to wear your own mon is because it would somehow not be showing proper respect to the head of whatever school you belong to? I know if you're in a ryuha, you're part of an organization with a lineage, and it would make sense for the mon to reflect that lineage... not sure if it's the same for gendai arts. Anyway, that's all total speculation on my part, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

Hi Ben -- This is an excellent point, and I think you may have nailed the problem on the head. After turning a thumbs-down on my personal mon idea, my sensei _did_ say that I may one day be granted the privilege of wearing the Nakayama kamon [Our Aikido organization is the Nakayamakai...our mon is the kiri]. So I guess I just keep practicing until I get my menkyo....it shouldn't take more than another ten or twenty years....

[hyaku]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by red_fists
[B]Hi.

Here is another thought.

Fine you create your "mon", but what happens if you come to Japan and find out that the "mon" you created belongs to a respected but now disfunct Family Clan.

Your post brings to mind the fact that the majority of men who marry in Japan rent a
Montsuki hakama bearing the crest of a disfuct family.

Normaly they wear an item that has replaced the Mon. The company lapel pin

As mentioned the kamon does have clan connotations. Which is the reason I must wear it and no other at certain functions.

Hyakutake Colin

[red_fists]

Your post brings to mind the fact that the majority of men who marry in Japan rent a
Montsuki hakama bearing the crest of a disfuct family.

Normaly they wear an item that has replaced the Mon. The company lapel pin


Granted, I must agree there. But than they also marry in a Christian Church where a "Gaijin" poses as a priest and performs the Wedding ceremony. ;)

[David T Anderson]

Originally posted by hyaku
[QUOTE]Originally posted by red_fists
[B]Hi.

Here is another thought.

Fine you create your "mon", but what happens if you come to Japan and find out that the "mon" you created belongs to a respected but now disfunct Family Clan.

Your post brings to mind the fact that the majority of men who marry in Japan rent a
Montsuki hakama bearing the crest of a disfuct family.Normaly they wear an item that has replaced the Mon. The company lapel pin

As mentioned the kamon does have clan connotations. Which is the reason I must wear it and no other at certain functions.

Hyakutake Colin

Hi Colin -- thanks for both your posts. I was interested to see the pictures, but I'd be very interested to see 'before' and 'after' pictures of your three-cicada kamon. I did plan to do some research on existing mon designs before I did my own, so I would avoid duplicating anything similar to an existing design. Given the similarities among many existing designs, I figured it would not be too much of a problem except in a case of awful coincidence.

Obviously this whole subject is much deeper than I originally thought. Too bad it's so difficult to find really detailed descriptions of Japanese folkways, both new and modern...but then nothing really worthwhile is likely to be easy. I guess I'd better start to learn to read and speak Japanese...

[Charles Mahan]

Here's an image of the mon I wasw refering too earlier. The image is a bit grainy. Sorry about that. Blame the equipment :P

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_1624329/montest.gif?bcWkXE8AJzHTKewg

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

I'd just like to offer a word of caution about buying/attaching mon to your keikogi or kimono.

As mentioned before, the kamon (I believe) refers to the personal family lineage of a person, and is worn on "personal" occaisons. This would be something that you would inherit.

The use of other mon, as indicated previously, would usually be affiliated with a lord or even a ryu.

But be very careful about assuming that it is o.k. to start wearing the Takeda mon because you study some line of Daito ryu, or the Tokugawa mon because it looks nice. There will definitely be those that will take offense.

In some ryu-ha, a deshi is not allowed to wear a clan/family mon of that art unless given permission specifically. In some cases this privelage is awarded upon reaching Menkyo Kaiden. Wearing a mon identifies you as a member of that clan/ryu, historically at least.

It would be best to check around a bit before showing up at a demo or taikai with a new mon!

PS. It is also worth mentioning, in reference to the first post on this thread, that many Japanese openly embrace western interest in their heritage and tradition - up to a point. If you become overly fluent in the language, or "overly Japanese", a very large percentage of native Japanese will suddenly not be quite as warm and fuzzy towards you.

I used to find it flattering to have Japanese state "Oh, Neisan-san, you are more Japanese than the Japanese". Now I kind of wish the subject would not be raised at all, and generally kill the subject immediately.

Sometimes it just plain pays to act like an ignorant, loud mouthed westerner!

:)

Regards,

[Ginzu Girl]

Hi everyone,
My first post to eBudo--Hajime mashita! Yoroshiku! :wave:

Another tricky thing about displaying "mon" are all those darned rules that go along with it--proper dress, type of occasion, your social status, etc.

I'm not an expert at all but I know that most older Japanese women have some kimono with mon and some without. (Most younger women don't have kimono with mon and can rent generic ones, like Senior Prom gowns.) The mostly black kimono with mon are only worn on certain VERY formal occasions--weddings, funerals, diplomatic affairs. The colored kimono with mon are worn on formal occasions. For most occasions, you don't wear clothing that displays mon, because you don't want to devalue the symbol. (Be subtle grasshopper, the nail that sticks up must be made level with the rest.)

Then comes the hard part. After you figure out what kimono to wear, there are a bazillion rules for what accessories go with which kimono. To really learn all the customs required for properly wearing kimono--with or without mon--young women have to enroll in a 2-3 week-long intensive study.

THEN comes the really hard part. :eek: If you wear what are considered traditional garments, you are then expected to understand the rest of the rituals/customs, and. . .gulp. . .faux pas.

I was lucky enough to attend my maternal grandmother's funeral with my Mom, who was raised to adulthood in Japan and educated in private schools through the equivalent of an ivy league women's college (think Smith, Rutgers). In other words, she is very well educated and of fairly high social status.

She remarked to me later that it was very stressful because she hadn't been to one of these VERY formal occasions in so long that she couldn't remember all the customs, proper Buddhist phrases, and (gasp!) familial connections. :(

Like I said, I'm no expert. On the contrary, I just know enough so that I would TOTALLY intimidated about displaying/wearing mon. (which I'm fortunate enough to have!) The pressure/expectation would be even greater because, as you'll see from my signature, this sort of knowledge is supposed to "be in my blood". Yeah, right.

BTW, I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Nei-san-sama on his observation:

It is also worth mentioning, in reference to the first post on this thread, that many Japanese openly embrace western interest in their heritage and tradition - up to a point. If you become overly fluent in the language, or "overly Japanese", a very large percentage of native Japanese will suddenly not be quite as warm and fuzzy towards you.

You know what "Your Japanese is really very good." really translates into? "Not bad for a non-Japanese." You can tell when you're getting uncomfortably good when they start telling that your Japanese is "not very good" (for us because you sound too Japanese.) Sssh. . .don't tell anyone or they'll go into the official records and erase my lineage!:cool:

In a more positive observation, the more educated/enlightened the Japanese person you're dealing with, the less they worry about whether you're white, yellow, or chartreuse. Which I guess applies to ALL people.

Here's another thought for you to munch on. Most asian martial artists consider themselves keepers of the flame of tradition in a 21st-century world that is in a great hurry to embrace what's new and modern, and only for 67 seconds. Sensei, sifu, shihan, sigong will probably be more concerned than most people about matters of proper etiquette, which they might equate with showing respect for the same tradition that gives us "budo".

And to finish with my disclaimer. I don't claim to know anything just because my name is kanji-compatible. It's been a very long time since I've been lucky enough to go back and visit the old country. My observations could very well be outdated or overly romanticized memories.:smash:

Whew! What a long-winded introduction. Or, i.e.,
Saaa. . .Taihen desu ne? :karatekid

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Tsuchiya-san,

Welcome to e-budo!

I'll look forward to reading more of your posts.

Regards,

[David T Anderson]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Hi all,

I'd just like to offer a word of caution about buying/attaching mon to your keikogi or kimono.



Hi Nathan -- Thanks for your input. Obviously my original idea was a bad one, and would have been a great mistake. I will try in future not to let my interest and enthusiasm for Japanese culture and folkways get the better of me. I guess that the Japanese don't regard imitation as _any_ kind of flattery...at least not necessarily.

[David T Anderson]

Originally posted by Ginzu Girl
And to finish with my disclaimer. I don't claim to know anything just because my name is kanji-compatible. It's been a very long time since I've been lucky enough to go back and visit the old country. My observations could very well be outdated or overly romanticized memories.



Forget it Anita... You've established yourself as an authority, and we will be regarding you as such from now on....:smokin:

[BTW, welcome to E-Budo....]

[Ginzu Girl]

Nei-san-san and Ander-son-san :laugh:

I figured for my first posting, I would endeavor to avoid charging into a forum, madly waving my "hino maru" around, whilst screaming "Banzai!"
:nin:

Special thanks to Dave-kun. NOW I feel like a real member. :D

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
It is also worth mentioning, in reference to the first post on this thread, that many Japanese openly embrace western interest in their heritage and tradition - up to a point. If you become overly fluent in the language, or "overly Japanese", a very large percentage of native Japanese will suddenly not be quite as warm and fuzzy towards you.

sad but true, the better you get your brain wrapped around living in japan the less often you receive obsequiously kind treatment from many japanese. as my subject line puts it, we no longer display the obvious disorientation that marks the newbie, and i think that's the giveaway for observers. i can't really offer any explanation, but i think that once you show any level of linguistic or social competence some japanese just move the bar 7 notches higher and expect more. the proverbial given inch turning into the taken yard ...

and what Anita says is absolutely true: when a japanese person gets too gushy with their compliments on your language ability they're really saying, "you still stink." this doesn't mean that every compliment is flattery; many modern japanese are given to speaking their minds much more than their elders. in fact, i was told a few months ago by a japanese acquaintance in the course of an english conversation that, "your japanese is still not perfect", a very fair assessment indeed!

[ghp]

Anita,


Special thanks to Dave-kun. NOW I feel like a real member.

Seeing that you are the newbie ... it's sort of (erhum) rude and/or presumptuous to refer to a senior as "nani-nani kun." "Kun" is *always* used by a senior to a junior (although seniors might not even use the dimunitive) -- and *never* the other way 'round. And I might add, the only teachers who have ever called me "kun" (a rare instance or two) were beyond my grandfather's age.

....Therefore.... unless you wish to tell us your age :D , you probably should refrain from applying "kun" to someone's name :laugh:

With that being said, "Kokoro yori, E-Budo e yokosou!" A hearty Welcome to E-Budo!!

Cheers,
Guy (an obvious curmudgeon!)

[ghp]

Regarding European achievements (coatarmor; coats of arms; wappen; etc).

Arms are matriculated only to the individual and are inheritable property -- the eldest son inherits the arms undifferenced; siblings may use a marking of cadency. At least in Ireland, even the second son and others must apply for a matriculation of arms -- the Chief Herald of Ireland will not recognize the second son unless this action is taken (personal experience ... I'm the elder). The cadency system is strictly maintained in Lyon Court (Scotland). England and Ireland also use the differences, but they are not as "unbending" as is the Lord Lyon.

Arms are not always combined with the mother's -- but it did become a tradition, and a "competition" to see who could have more "quarterings." It came to be that the more quarterings, etc., the more regal was one's lineage. In truth, the simpler the arms (less complicated), the older the arms -- and the more ancient the family.

There is no instance where a title has arms. Some Americans were deluded into buying "lordship of the manor" titles (or Irish baronies ... which are actually counties -- they didn't spend their money well!!) with the promise that the "title" brought with it armorial bearings. That is not the case. As a matter of fact, the English College of Arms refuses to even mention "Lordship of the Manor" in armorial patents anymore because of this deception. If I were to inherit (or buy) a barony in Scotland, I would not receive the arms of the previous owner. If I were related to the former owner and didn't have my own arms, I could matriculate a difference to my relative's arms. But already being armigerous, my arms would be amended to allow supporters and a cap of maintenance (if the Lord Lyon agreed to my petition) -- however, the shield and crest would not change.

If a non-armegerous person purchases a barony in Scotland, he may apply for a patent awarding him arms, supporters, and cap of maintenance (armorial symbols of a Scottish baron). But the land/title does not automatically confer the arms.

Phew!

Guy
(Irish arms; but registered in Lyon Court)

[Ginzu Girl]

Seeing that you are the newbie ... it's sort of (erhum) rude and/or presumptuous to refer to a senior as "nani-nani kun." "Kun" is *always* used by a senior to a junior (although seniors might not even use the dimunitive) -- and *never* the other way 'round. And I might add, the only teachers who have ever called me "kun" (a rare instance or two) were beyond my grandfather's age.

OOPS! Sorry about that Dave-sama! And to Guy, DOOMO ARIGATO GOZAIMASU! for the gentle and constructive correction. My limited encounter with this term has been among family members--parents, cousins, aunt, uncle, grandparents. I don't recall that the age difference was neccesarily great. BUT, I thought it was a more familiar way of addressing an OLDER/SENIOR male. I got it totally backwards. :o

So, since I've got the attention of knowledgeable parties, am I at least correct in understanding that females can never be "namae-kun?" It's one of those males-only useages. E.g., men can say "buko" and be addressed as "namae-kun" but I can't.

Regardless of my physical age (yon ju ni sai), Guy is correct. I am the newbie! (I'm optimistically assuming that for our informal social banter here at eBudo, I can ignore the gender-based hierarchical differences. ;)

Wait a second, let me rephrase that. I want to use the correct gender-based terms. But I don't have to necessarily assume that I'm of a lower rank ONLY because I'm female.

Wow, an intro and faux pas in just two posts. Guess I'm really in now. Thanks again EVERYONE for the warm welcome. This is fun!

Guy, you are NOT a curmudgeon. You're being helpful! Can you imagine how I'd have felt if I had made this sort of mistake at my grandmother's funeral?!? :eek: I shudder to think.

This is when I'm grateful for being American. In a friendly open forum like this one, I can laugh about falling on my face, rather than agonize over losing it. So much more productive than "hara kiri." (or I guess in my case, throat-slitting.)

You haven't lived until you've had a 6th grade boy rolling on the ground in tears because he just met a grown woman who talks like a retarded 10-year old. :laugh:

Ja, mata ne? :wave:

[Nathan Scott]

Wow, all that talk of arms has got me own arms tired! What was the question again??

:D

Tsuchiya-san,

I'm not an expert on Japanese, but my experience has been that, when talking to kids up to perhaps their early twenties, you could refer to boys as "(name)-kun", and girls as "(name)-chan".

Here comes the thesis....

[ghp]

Hello again Anita. And a much warmer welcome!!


E.g., men can say "buko" and be addressed as "namae-kun" but I can't.

Generally, yes; that is correct. However, it has very recently become trendy in Japan for adoloscent/teenage schoolgirls to use "boku" instead of "watashi" or "atashi." To me (yonjyukyu sai) and my wife, it sounds silly. Of course, youths (wakamono ... but I say "bakamono") now are making up their own words that even "younger" Japanese adults (30) cannot understand.

De wa, mata desu.

Guy d'Curmudgeon
[Say, that sounds sorta cool if you pronounce "Guy" in the French style ("Gi")]

[Ginzu Girl]

Thank you Guy!
That generational thing can be irritating, can't it? Bakamono. . .as in "idiot?" :laugh:

The road to learning can funny or not very funny at all but it's always full of surprises.

My Nisei Dad is an only son, but preceded by three girls. My Mom says that when she first met this strapping, handsome guy, he talked like a girl. His most irritating habit was to end all his sentences saying, "ne?"

When I went to Japan, I spoke from my lower throat and chest, Yankee-style, and had a habit of ending my sentences with an affirmative "So!" (You know the answer to this one.) People kept giggling and telling me I sounded like a boy. (Well, that's when they weren't calling me retarded. And BTW, I cain't read two gud.)

Power-sensei. My deep appreciation for the lesson. (:smilejapa Bowing with my forehead deeply planted in my Buddha's window.)

Oh and Merry Christmas everyone! :santa:

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by ghp
Generally, yes; that is correct. However, it has very recently become trendy in Japan for adoloscent/teenage schoolgirls to use "boku" instead of "watashi" or "atashi." To me (yonjyukyu sai) and my wife, it sounds silly. Of course, youths (wakamono ... but I say "bakamono") now are making up their own words that even "younger" Japanese adults (30) cannot understand.

"Kun" is sometimes used with women, but it's not all that common (not unusual, but you won't hear it that often). "Boku" is in common use by girls even down to 1st and 2nd grade in Japan at the moment. Personally, I'm in favor of the continuing breakdown of gender specific language in Japanese.

Interestingly, I find that older people often complain about how young people change the language without recalling that their parents said much the same things about them :) .

Best,

Chris

[Joseph Svinth]

When speaking Japanese, do Canadian Nisei end all their sentences with "Eh"?

[Ginzu Girl]

When speaking Japanese, do Canadian Nisei end all their sentences with "Eh"?

That's a two-minute minor for roughing and a ten-minute match penalty for punning with intent to injure. Off to the penalty box with you, eh?! :rolleyes:

[Ginzu Girl]

When speaking Japanese, do Canadian Nisei end all their sentences with "Eh"?

That's a two-minute minor for roughing and a ten-minute match penalty for punning with intent to injure. Off to the penalty box with you, eh?! :rolleyes:

[Jeff Hamacher]

oh, boy! more language fun!!! interesting to read the last several posts about this use of honourifics in japanese. here's another handful of examples:
[list=1]
the Speaker of the House in the japanese parliament refers to all members with the honourific "-kun", e.g. Prime Minister Koizumi is referred to as "Koizumi-kun".
the older and more traditional breed of office managers often refer to male subordinates with "-kun"; very occasionally women are spoken to in the same way. however, it is becoming more common for every subordinate in an office to be called "dare-dare-san". in a more "modern" dojo, everyone tends to get "-san", unless they are university student age or younger, in which case boys get "-kun" and girls get "-chan". a more conservative setting such as my jo group is quite different. students of higher rank get "-san", but lowly junior types like myself only get "-san" (or sometimes in my case "Misutaa") outside of training. during training it's "yobisute", i.e. no honourific at all. my teacher's teacher is even more stingy with honourifics. he only uses "-san" with those of his students who have their own dojo and are teaching actively. high-ranked students of those teachers get "-kun", and everybody else gets yobisute.
[/list=1]
when it comes down to it, the terms themselves have a clear rank structure, but the way that someone uses them is a very individual thing. some of my seniors consistently refer to me with "-san", some only when we're not training, and one of my seniors consistently uses yobisute when he talks with me. in an even stranger example, one of my seniors almost always refers to me with "-san" except when we go to bigger training seminars where she uses yobisute. it seems as though she wants to emphasize her seniority in the presence of other jo groups in our association, a tendency that is rather strong with some martial arts students.