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Yamantaka
19th July 2000, 12:36
Hi, Guys and Gals!

I've always heard that Mikinosuke Kawaishi was responsible for the introdution of coloured belts to Judo. Recently, however, I was told that Kano Jigoro was the first to use coloured belts (green and brown, besides the more common black and white). Has anyone heard about that?
Best regards
Yamantaka

19th July 2000, 14:00
Some time ago I did a considerable amount of research on this subject for a magazine article. A copy is online at:

http://www.concentric.net/~Budokai/articles/belts.htm

According to the Kodokan's librarian and inhouse historian, Kano introduced the black belt. Colored belts were later added by European judo clubs. There is still a lot of speculation about why the black belt was introduced and the meaning of the color. However, there is some evidence to indicate the actual reasons.

Joseph Svinth
19th July 2000, 16:28
The Budokwai was using colored belts during the early 1920s, and in Seattle Nisei started wearing brown belts during the late 1920s. Meanwhile Kawaishi did not go to France until the 1930s. As a result it is probably safer to say that he introduced the scheme to France rather than the world.

Kawaishi is also known for teaching judo by the numbers. (Literally.) He could have invented the idea by himself, but the professional wrestler Will Bingham was teaching jujutsu by the numbers in New York in 1916. So Kawaishi's primacy is doubtful there, too.

Brian Griffin
20th July 2000, 22:52
What Kawaishi discovered when he got to Europe was that Westerners were impatient about progress & desired some visible outward recognition at each step. Japanese were content to know they were now, say, 4-kyu, even though the color of the obi remained the same (white) until 3-kyu when they could wear brown. Kawaishi's innovations were two-fold:

(1) - a different colored obi for _each_ kyu rank

(2) - the spcific color sequence now in use worldwide, to wit: white, yellow, orange, green, blue, brown. This sequence appears (IMHO) to have formed the basis for many other (non-judo) styles as well.

I don't think anyone means to imply that Kawaishi invented the concept of colored belts as an abstract, general principle.

(FWIW--this info relies on "oral tradition" from my sensei. He began his Judo career in Paris in 1946, & studied under Kawaishi, eventually earning his shodan under him before emigrating to the States in the mid-50s. He retired from active teaching in the mid-80s)

Yours in Judo,

Brian P. Griffin

Scaramouche
21st July 2000, 04:13
Hello,

this is my first post on this forum.

I have heard this idea that belts were invented for westerners as a means of motivating them, but this seems unlikely to me. Boxing, as far as I know, has never used anything comparable to a colored belt system, but even without such a ranking system it was very popular and widely practiced by American and European men at least until the time of the Second World War. Various forms of wrestling also flourished (freestyle, catch, Graco-Roman, and other) in the U.S. and Europe without a belt system. Fencing has an instructors rank, I believe, but no beginner or intermediate ranks. It has also been popular in the West. Inside and outside of the Olympics, archery and various sorts of shooting have been popular, without the need for anything like a belt ranking system. Clearly Americans and Europeans have dedicated themselves to combative arts without having to employ anything like a colored belt system to motivat them.

I suspect that Kano realized that unlike the old Ryu, which I understand were taught in very small groups in which everyone knew each other and each others' level of skill, Kano's budding international judo movement needed a means by which judoka who had never met before could automatically know each others' skill level. I think this was more likely the reason a belt system was introduced.

Marco S. Subias

Joseph Svinth
21st July 2000, 07:09
Although I think you've got the right idea, Marco, note that when Kano introduced color belts in the 1880s, he was not concerned about international participation; that wouldn't happen until the 1910s at the very earliest.

As a result, I think in his case the introduction was largely a function of the Japanese honorific language. For example, at the Peers School many students would have been of a higher social class than their teachers. But of course it is always undignified to have students calling teachers "Boy" to their faces. Therefore in class the teachers are given a certain status for the occasion, and the belt provides an easy way of showing this. Furthermore, in Japanese, it is not easy to ask a stranger for anything, let alone something so personal as randori, because you don't know his rank, and therefore don't know which honorifics to use. But when you see brown belt, you say, ah, I am junior or senior in this relationship, and then use the correct inflections.

MarkF
21st July 2000, 07:36
Possibly this was just the natural outcome of the belt colors designating one's level of training, as I had been taught early on that when playing randori, or a demonstration in front of others of the dojo or in front of guests, that the higher graded judoka always went first and last. The complications of this, however, were also difficult for one from another school who was a guest, or guest teacher. The multicolored belts which were imported from France made this easier, but the dan ranked student still had the problem of asking which dan level of another, which could be taken as an insult, depending from which country or school the person was from, but the same problem still existst today amoung dan graded students as to whom the honor went. A guest or new student from another country or school would never think of doing this, thus the other dan ranked student would go first as a guest would not even think of doing such a thing. This seemed the more common of ways with students from Japan who came to this country, as the "honorable" thing was to allow the home student to go first no matter what the dan grade.

I know this is confusing, and really unnecessary, but for some, it carries a lot of meaning. But I believe that was Kano's reason for the colored belts in the first place. It was just a mark of sorts which identified where one was in h/her training. In other words, this has already been explained so the need for this post is unnecessary:)

Yamantaka
21st July 2000, 10:37
Let's see...I think Svinth and Feigenbaum has stated that coloured belts were introduced by Kano. That's supposed to mean black and white or other colours? And that before Kawaishi and the Budokwai in Europe ?
Yamantaka

Brian Griffin
21st July 2000, 21:39
My understanding (subject to correction by those more knowledgeable--you know who you are!) is along the following lines:

(1)--The kyu/dan system was created by Kano in the 1880s, but ranks were not indicated outwardly by colored belts at first, & there may have been as few as (3) dan grades--later revised to 6 kyu & 12 dan ranks.

(2)--Once the hakama was discarded for good as a training garment, the obi became visible, and at some point began to be used as the indicator of rank. (Unlike, say, kendo, which adopted Kano's kyu/dan system, but uses no colored belts)
At first this may only have distinguished yudansha from mudansha by means of a black obi. Not sure about the date, but probably prior to 1900. Black (kuro) may have been chosen because it sometimes carries connotations of 'expert' or'professional.' This may be due to a homonym (Nelson #2918) which occurs with this meaning in compounds like "kurouto." (Pure speculation on my part, I should add).

(3)--Sometime around the turn of the century, with the adoption of Kodokan Judo into the standard school curriculum, the judogi was standardized more-or-less as we know it today (except for those blue ones :)) and kyu-ranks may have begun to be distinguished using obi of different colors. Brown, and sometimes green and/or blue were used to distinguish intermediate kyu grades. There doesn't seem to have been a uniform scheme. Common ones I've seen include:

* all white unil shodan
* (3) white/(3) brown
* (2) white/(1) green or blue/(3) brown
* (2) white/(2) green or blue/(2) brown

So a sankyu might wear white, green, blue, or brown, depending on the custom at his dojo.

Certainly, schemes like this were in use in England (and possibly elsewhere) by the '20s & perhaps earlier. I don't know if they were adopting a Japanese practice, or if the Japanese copied a European innovation in this regard. The apparent "interchangeability" of the colors green & blue suggests a Japanese origin to my mind. If so, it could not have been Kano's invention, else we'd have a single standard scheme in use everywhere.

(4)--Under Kawaishi's leadership, European judoka adopted a standard color scheme for kyu grades, featuring a different color obi for _each_ kyu:

white/yellow/orange/green/blue/brown

In this system, a sankyu always wears green and a brown belt always means ikkyu, regardless of dojo.

(5)--One of many things I _don't_ know is when/where purple began to be used in lieu of brown for yonen/shonen.

Yours in Judo,

Brian P. Griffin

21st July 2000, 23:35
It's always amazing to me how much drivel is spouted as "fact" when it comes to martial arts ranks and belt colors. Everyone seems to have their own history and explanation of the development of belts, ranks, etc. It was really not that complicated or that long ago. Please see my previous post on this subject.

Another interesting fact is that judogi pants were designed by Kano to fit his impression of Western exercise clothing. The Japanese had nothing like this in their wardrobe prior to Kano's introduction of the judogi. I especially find the black obi deriving from the discarded hakama reference to be especially hilarious since most systems did not have any particular uniform for martial arts training. They usually just wore everyday clothing. The use of kendo bogu, of course, being an exception.

And where in Japanese culture does the color black have "expert" or "professional" connotations? In Japan today, few judo schools use any colored belts other than white, brown, and black. Some of the karate schools have adopted the multi-colored belt rank scheme, but mostly due to external influences. Any other colors, except for red-and-white to denote high ranking yudanshaka, are definitely from Western influences. By the way, brown belts are used for sankyu to ikkyu in most European and American judo systems. However, brown is only for ikkyu in some countries like Singapore.

Please consider your "understanding" to be corrected now.

[Edited by budokai on 07-21-2000 at 05:39 PM]

AikiTom
22nd July 2000, 03:11
Let me throw 2 cents into a pot that is already full :)

I've ready that Kano didn't invent but rather "adopted" the colored belts from a system already being used in Japanese school swimming competitions. That's all I remember.

For the record, never believed the "white belt getting dirty to black" stories.

MarkF
22nd July 2000, 08:31
The white to black story is simply a legend or myth, especially when you consider that the Chinese invented soap, or what passed for soap back then, but I can tell you from experience how the colored belts were used beginning in the late fifties or early sixties.

In the Southern California Nanka Yudanshakai of the early/middle sixites, the kyu ranks for juniors were broken down to this: White for any kyu up to sankyu, green for sankyu, violet/purple for nikkyu and ikkyu. When one was no longer considered a junior at age fifteen or sixteen, it was brown for ikkyu and brown for sankyu through ikkyu, if one reached that kyu as an "adult." Otherwise white, brown and black. These were also the only colors accepted by the USJF back then, and I think the same holds true today for juniors when they compete in USJF sanctioned tournaments. The other colors seemed only to be used intra-dojo, at least, it is here in New Mexico.

All Jr. National competitive judoka were recognized with three colors, those mentioned above as white, green, and violet. In world contests or the Jr. Olympics, it was the same. What other dojo, organizations, or the original colors were, as most things old, confusing, and probably not very important in the scheme of things. One personal thing of note: Not everybody needed to look toward a different belt color to know his/her training level, as it took ten years for shodan which was about normal then. If one competed at every shiai on a monthly basis I suppose it may have not taken as long, but it did if you were bent on learning kata.

BTW: Insofar as this was a French/European system, how did the "cherry-blossom" system of grading "rank" next to this one? Is it possible that this had an effect on the rainbow of colors today?

Also, as to what Popie said of the color white in Japanese culture, I am not really sure, as one would have to ask J. Kano of such things. However, when the blue judogi was proposed by the IJF in international contests, such as the World Championships and the Olympic Games, the Japanese National Federation fought this change tooth and nail as there was something inherently "spiritual" in the color white, but it still doesn't explain then the color of black for dan-graded obi. They voted against the inclusion of the rule requiring one of the participants to wear blue, giving the "practical" reason of continuing with the system which had a red team and a white team. It was approved. This may have made it easier to view a match, but it had an extra advantage of lowering shimban (referee) error by as much as forty per cent. If this figure is true, it makes one consider how many matches and how things may have been today if not for the color change. One other reason for voting nea on this was that it was very expensive for most judoka to carry two dogi, as one did not know which color they may wear into each tournament, thus, the reversible (blue/white) judogi. Also, since the kyu/dan system was around since the 1880s, it hardly means these are "judo colors" as Kano may not have begun to use the term to describe his jujutsu until later. Kano was judoka all right, but he was jujutsuka before this system and held teaching licenses in at least two ryu, and it did not take long for others to adopt this system of grading, some giving the reason that it was easier to deal with than was the old time consuming menkyo scrolls, etc.

[Edited by MarkF on 07-22-2000 at 02:57 AM]

22nd July 2000, 18:31
Japanese typically divide groups into red and white sides, based on a pivotal historical event. The Genpei War was a dispute between two rival clans, the Genji and Heike. The Genji used white flags to identify their troops on the battlefield, while the Heike used red flags.

Ken Allgeier
22nd July 2000, 22:26
I do not know if this can help this situation,but in Michel Random book "The Martial Arts"C.1977 on pg 238,there is a picture from a French magazine called "Le Petit Parisien"december 1905,which has several men engaged in what maybe Judo or Jujutsu.The picture or more correctly the illustration has three men wearing red belts and two men wearing blue belts,all the men are wearing white uniforms (i.e Judo gi) the caption under the picture says" UNE SEANCE DE JIU-JITSU" I do not read french,( I took french for only one year in college,but I guess it may mean " the science of Jujutsu ).I hope this may help.






ken allgeier

Yamantaka
22nd July 2000, 23:16
Very interesting, Ken! And the date (1905)...Does anyone knows if jujutsuka wore coloured belts at that time? Or were they judoka? It might very well be the first time budoka wore coloured belts.
By the way, Une séance de jujutsu means "a jujutsu session"...
Thanks for your post. Waiting for more answers
Yamantaka

MarkF
23rd July 2000, 07:26
I was going to ask Ken what they were doing in the picture because that was my impression of the French caption, as well. If they were wearing dogi, they were judoka, as that was how judo was referenced in those days. Another reason for the belt colors may have been just that: a color shot required some color, but that is a guess. That still leaves the "cherry-blossom" system of ranking which came out of Holland, I believe, but as for when, I don't know. It did not last long, but may have influenced the belt colors of today. This is a guess only, but it is the only one which hasn't been discussed. I believe there were 12 grades, each one with its own color, but which ones, I don't know. This has been discussed before on E-budo and that is the reason I brought it up. I think Popie's reason for the color white is correct, that it held the meaning of "spiritual cleanliness" as I have heard, and Don and Brian Griffin seem to have a nice discussion going concerning this. But ultimately, it does lay with Prof. Kano and possibly with the Milk Duds being consumed by Popie's mother-in-law.:)

As for the dye used, it was common in the sixties to see all shades possible of purple, especially at national events. I agree that the importance of this is way overblown, and I still think it was more of a message to others as to where one was in one's training.

[Edited by MarkF on 07-23-2000 at 01:28 AM]

Brian Griffin
25th July 2000, 03:16
Mr. Cunningham was kind enough to reply to my post. I always appreciate his insights. His comments sparked a few additional thoughts, inserted below after the pertinent passages in his posting. I hope he won't mind.

Originally posted by budokai
Another interesting fact is that judogi pants were designed by Kano to fit his impression of Western exercise clothing.

I found this a fascinating idea; one I'd never before encountered. I wonder what sort of western exercise clothing, exactly, he might have used as his model. I'm also very interested to learn where I might read more about Kano's impressions of Western exercise & physical education systems.


The Japanese had nothing like this in their wardrobe prior to Kano's introduction of the judogi.

I seem to recall seeing turn-of-the-century photos of Japanese farmers wearing a form of loose-legged pants for working in the fields. I've read elsewhere that these short trousers may have been the basis for judogi pants. Those early "high-water" gi pants sure _looked_ like they were designed for a rice paddy :)


I especially find the black obi deriving from the discarded hakama reference to be especially hilarious...

Allow me to apologize for my lack of clarity. I didn't mean to imply a connection between black as an obi color, and the wearing of hakama. I merely observe that the obi is not very visible when hakama are worn. Indeed, many forego an obi entirely, and rely on the hakama to hold the uwagi closed. Under these circumstances, it would be pointless to use any feature of the obi (such as color) as a visual marker to distinguish one class of trainees from another.


...since most systems did not have any particular uniform for martial arts training. They usually just wore everyday clothing.

Exactly my point. Hakama were a common article of daily clothing in th 1880s. Jujutsu students trained in hakama all the time. At some point, they were discarded for everyday training at the Kodokan. But according to Mr. Cunningham's article, (see http://www.concentric.net/~Budokai/articles/belts.htm) the first dan grades were awarded within a year of the founding of Kodokan dojo:

"'In 1883, Dr. Kano divided students into two groups, which was the non-grading (mudansha) and the grading (yudansha),' according to Naoki Murata, curator of the Kodokan Judo Museum."

But the obi wasn't used as a visual marker of grade until some years later:

"Black belts were not worn as symbols of dan grade in the Kodokan until 1886 or 1887, Murata recounts..."

Clearly the use of belt color as marker of rank arose independently of, a subsequent to, the creation of the kyu/dan system. There was no judo uniform. Early judo students trained in street attire, as Mr. Cunningham suggests. This would include hakama. As randori and newaza assumed greater prominence in the curriculum, hakama were eventually discarded for regular training. Without hakama, everybody needed to wear obi. Now that the obi was universally present _and_ visible, it was available for other purposes. For example, as a rank indicator.


And where in Japanese culture does the color black have "expert" or "professional" connotations?

Somewhere, I have a reference that states this association explicitly. Naturally enough, I can't seem to lay my hands on the darn thing when I need it. Let me see if I can get there by another route:

Many of you are no doubt familiar with 5-elements theory and its widespread use in Japanese geomancy, astrology (kigaku etc.) and other esoteric divinatory practices. Each of the elements is associated with a cardinal direction, a season, a color, and a host of other things. For example, we find the color 'black' to be associated with the 'water' principle (sui), 'Winter', and 'North'.

Besides being a season of the year, 'Winter' can also represent old age, much as we use 'Spring' as a metaphor for youth.

Black is also associated with that which is dark, hidden, secret, or esoteric, in line with its Yin-Yang (inyo) interpretation.

It shouldn't be too hard to see how 'black' could be associated with age, experience, wisdom, and possession of esoteric knowledge or skill. In short, "expertise."

This in no way contradicts the theory advanced in Mr. Cunningham's article:

"One unauthenticated supposition regarding black belts worn by dan grades is that Dr. Kano borrowed the concept from Japanese high school sports. Advanced competitors were separated from beginners in swimming tournaments by a black ribbon worn around their waist. As an distinguished educator and sports enthusiast, Dr. Kano was most certainly aware of this tradition and may have incorporated it into his practices at the Kodokan."

This may indeed have been the inspiration, but it begs the question: "Why black?"

Could it be that black was a natural choice to signify those with greater experience who were possessed of special skills?


By the way, brown belts are used for sankyu to ikkyu in most European and American judo systems. However, brown is only for ikkyu in some countries like Singapore.

This surprises me somewhat. I know that France, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and even Norway use the Kawaishi color scheme in which brown denotes ikkyu alone. I was under the impression this usage was virtually standard in Europe. Which European countries use brown for sankyu through ikkyu?


Please consider your "understanding" to be corrected now.

Your kindness and courtesy are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

25th July 2000, 03:55
Hi Brian,

You've misunderstood some of my comments. First, it was jujutsu practitioners, as well as other bujutsu styles, which probably practiced in hakama since they usually wore street clothes. Judo was different from the beginning. The Meiji Restoration was a very strange time in Japan. Most traditional Japanese arts were nearly universally rejected in favor of anything, good and bad, from Western culture. The lack of interest in pursuing Japanese traditional arts is one reason that jujutsu nearly died out altogether. On the other hand, almost anything Western in nature was viewed as inherently better or more modern.

When Kano started his Kodokan, he introduced the judogi (sometimes called keikogi) for general practice, which was apparently a deviation from jujutsu. In his writings, Kano is very clear that he patterned the judogi, especially the pants, after his impression of Western athletic sportswear of the period. If you look at Western gym clothes of this period, it's easy to see the resemblance. Remember that Kano was very interested in many different aspects of physical education, especially that of other cultures. (See Kodokan Judo published 1961 by Nunoi for more information regarding the development of judogi.) There is indication the judogi was revised in 1907, but it is unclear exactly what these changes were. It may have to do with the sleeve and pants length, similar to the changes implemented during the last decade. Most probably, these were lengthened to cover the knees and elbows as newaza gained popularity. However, this is only my speculation based on pictures from that era.

It's interesting to note that many of the pictures of other jujutsu styles during the early part of the last century seem to indicate the judogi must have caught on with most of them as well. Maybe they perceived the obvious benefits or maybe they thought it would give a more Western look to their style as well.

While your theory about the color black is interesting, it is unlikely this was the reason. There is no definite proof of the reason for selecting this color, but it may have been as simple as the availability of the material supply or dyes used. While much has been suggested by the significance of white for judogi, the real reason may have been that the natural cotton color was selected for more practical reasons. Kano was known to be interested in the I Ching. While yen and yang (known as in and yo in Japanese) may have influenced some of his color selections, it appears this may have been more likely to be the use of red and white for the high yudansha ranks and the red and white shiai.

While it is fun to speculate on more esoteric reasons, remember the people who made these choices were just that, people. They were subject to many of the same practical influences as we are today and didn't always put a lot of symbolism into every decision. They were just as likely to have been ready to accept what was readily available or inexpensive. For example, if you were to introduce some sport or game similar to tennis or racquetball, played on the same court with a tennis ball, would you select a standard racquet you could get at the local sports store or would you prefer to use a specially constructed square racquet for strange symbolic reasons? Even if you did find it necessary to use a square racquet for your new form of tennis, you would probably think enough of the symbolic meaning to document it clearly in some way so that contemporary participants would understand and support the extra expense involved and that future generations of players would also understand the reason for the radical change.

Finally, while it was nearly ten years ago that I practiced and competed in Germany and Austria, brown belts were employed for sankyu through ikkyu judo ranks back then. It was the same in Scotland just a few years ago. If they've changed since then, I haven't heard anything about it.

[Edited by budokai on 07-24-2000 at 10:11 PM]

Brian Griffin
27th July 2000, 22:51
Originally posted by budokai
Hi Brian,

You've misunderstood some of my comments.
That would not be unusual for me :) One of my friends always describes me as " strong like bull...smart like tractor."

First, it was jujutsu practitioners, as well as other bujutsu styles, which probably practiced in hakama since they usually wore street clothes.
No argument. Remember, however, that for at least the first several years, those guys at the Kodokan would have been viewed as yet another jujutsu school. Iikubo Sensei was still teaching them Kito-Ryu twice a week, and Kano was still studying under Iikubo until he received full license around 1885 or so. Kodokan's bylaws weren't promulgated until 1884, and the Gokyo syllabus didn't take shape until 1895. The Kodokan method we know and love evolved over many years; it didn't just spring forth, Venus-like, fully-formed from Kano's head in 1882. It's clear that hakama were discarded early on as practice methods evolved toward more randori, but in the very earliest days, I see no reason to think they dressed any differently than Kano had during his training in Kito & Tenjin Shin'yo.

Judo was different from the beginning. The Meiji Restoration was a very strange time in Japan. Most traditional Japanese arts were nearly universally rejected in favor of anything, good and bad, from Western culture. The lack of interest in pursuing Japanese traditional arts is one reason that jujutsu nearly died out altogether. On the other hand, almost anything Western in nature was viewed as inherently better or more modern.
Absolutely true as far as the overall mood of the general society. Remember, though, that Kano was strongly influenced by people like the famous Ernest Fenollosa, who had been one of his university professors. Fenollosa was, of course, an ardent japanophile who repeatedly urged his students not to reject their patrimony, rather, to preserve it for future generations. It may have been his influence that led Kano try to develop his Kodokan into a repository for the technique and wisdom of the traditional budo, lest they altogether perish.

... In his writings, Kano is very clear that he patterned the judogi, especially the pants, after his impression of Western athletic sportswear of the period...(See Kodokan Judo published 1961 by Nunoi for more information regarding the development of judogi.)
I'm interested in reading what Kano had to say in this area. Is the '61 edition of Kodokan Judo your source? If not, can you point me in the right direction?

It's interesting to note that many of the pictures of other jujutsu styles during the early part of the last century seem to indicate the judogi must have caught on with most of them as well. Maybe they perceived the obvious benefits or maybe they thought it would give a more Western look to their style as well.
In 1905, under the auspices of Dai Nippon Butokukai, most of the extant jujutsu ryuha formally joined the Kodokan. They retained their traditional kata, but adopted Kodokan techniques & practice methods, along with the new uniform and rank system.

...Kano was known to be interested in the I Ching. While yen and yang (known as in and yo in Japanese) may have influenced some of his color selections, it appears this may have been more likely to be the use of red and white for the high yudansha ranks and the red and white shiai.
Inyo is all about the harmony of complementary opposites: light/dark, hot/cold, dry/wet, male/female, white/black...

Kohaku (red/white), ever since the days of the Taira & Minamoto, has connoted not opposites, but two equally matched sides, striving with each other. Red is also associated with happy or auspicious occasions, often with formal or ceremonial overtones. Good choice to mark those of shihan level.

While it is fun to speculate on more esoteric reasons, remember the people who made these choices were just that, people. They were subject to many of the same practical influences as we are today and didn't always put a lot of symbolism into every decision.
I agree completely. For people who grew up steeped in traditional japanese culture, the things I've been talking about would not need to be consciously planned--they'd just "feel" natural.

...Finally, while it was nearly ten years ago that I practiced and competed in Germany and Austria, brown belts were employed for sankyu through ikkyu judo ranks back then. It was the same in Scotland just a few years ago. If they've changed since then, I haven't heard anything about it.
Very interesting. Here in Santa Barbara we get a lot of foreign visitors (something about the sun & sand). So I get to "clue in" our students about the meaning of European belt colors. A couple of our guys got their early training over there. Rolf trained in Holland growing up, then in London while in college. He never saw brown used for other than ikkyu. Erwin grew up in Stuttgart & got to ikkyu there, and went to tournaments and/or trained with judoka from Italy, France, Austria etc. Same story. Here's a website with the kyu syllabus used in the Austrian Judo Federation:
http://www.inode.at/asahi.ubk/judo4.html
As you can see, they list the standard Kawaishi color scheme. one kyu=one color
Your mention of Scotland is interesting, though. Judo books published in the UK through the '60s & '70s all gave the expected Kawaishi color scheme. Recently, though, I came across this kyu syllabus from the BJA:
http://www.shef.ac.uk/~jc/kyu.html
Same old Kawaishi color sequence, but spread across _ten_ kyu, rather than the canonical six! This results in (2) kyu per color from orange on up. So sankyu would be blue (!?) and nikyu/ikkyu would wear brown. Might this be what you saw? In any case, it's an outgrowth of Kawaishi's scheme, rather than an instance of the Japanese practice.

By the way,

Thanks, Mr. Cunningham, for indulging me on this thread. I do realize these are, ultimately, trivial matters. They're kind of fun to kick around once in awhile though.

MarkF
28th July 2000, 08:26
Hi Brian,
You and Don seem to have a lot of knowledge of something which arguably has little meaning, especially today. I was particularly interested in the differences in the syllabus differences between the AJF and the BJA. In fact, it seems much easier to advance in the BJA, according to the waza for each kyu. If there are no points for shiai in the BJA, I would assume one holds them for advancement to dan grades.


Do you know anything concerning the cherry blossom system of grading? It seems to have come from Holland early 20-century. It still may have an effect on the color/grading system. Since you have some from the general area, perhaps they may know? Granted, it is out of my own curiosity, but I remember reading somewhere that his may have had an effect on today's grades.

Thanks,

gavinslater
28th July 2000, 18:12
Hi,

The cherry blossom grading structure was in use by the Nederlands Judo and Ju Jitsu Bond up until it turned into the Nederlands Judo Bond. (I am not sure of the date) I know it was still in use around 1958 because that is when Geoff Geurts (The 'founder' of my ju jitsu/judo) immigrated to Australia. We used the structure up until around 1990 for ju jitsu only, judo was graded in the kyu/dan system. Originally no coloured belts were worn until 6th degree cherry blossom. What denoted rank was the type of cherry blossom worn on the dogi. Once graded to 6th degree a black belt was worn. Each student grade (below 6th degree) the middle of the cherry blossom changed colour in line with the grade i.e. 1st degree = yellow, 2nd = orange, 3rd = green, 4th = blue, 5th = brown. From memory i think the badge was green and black. From sixth degree the colour changed to red and each degree a bar was added to the cherry blossom.
During the 1970's the cherry blossom was changed in favour of a coloured belt, but your grade was still yellow cherry blossom etc. We still use this system for the student grades, but we have adopted the dan system after that. Judo was always the kyu/dan system.

I hope this helps.

Gavin.

PS. there were 12 degrees in all, your first grading you were graded to 1st degree cherry blossom.

Joseph Svinth
28th July 2000, 22:54
Black belts were certainly in use by 1907, as they were mentioned in Seattle Times articles. See, for example, "How Seattle's Sons of Old Japan Practice Jiu-jitsu" at http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsframe.htm ; it's in volume II, accessible through the nav bar.

In the accompanying illustration, note also the length of the sleeves and trousers.

In 1909, professional wrestler and Kodokan 3-dan Tokugoro Ito complained about Eddie Robinson of San Francisco using a red, white, and blue spangled sash on his keikogi, so that innovation isn't especially new, either.

For more about judo in the Pacific Northwest during this period, see also: "Pacific Northwest Judo: First Generation." Serialized in the "North American Post" on November 26, 1997 and December 5, 1997. The original article appears online at http://www.napost.com/english under "Headlines" and an updated version appears online at http://www.concentric.net/~Budokai/articles/seattle.htm .

MarkF
29th July 2000, 07:42
For a while I thought I had lost it again, but I knew it was someome who had this information. Thanks much, Gavin. It also makes today's colored belts seemingly with a base in that system. But here in the US it was still only green and purple/violet for the kyu grades, along with white in the sixties, and then only for juniors.:wave:

Brian Griffin
6th December 2000, 16:08
I hope no one minds if I dredge something up from the distant past.

Earlier in this thread, Mr. Cunningham asked:

Originally posted by Don Cunningham
And where in Japanese culture does the color black have "expert" or "professional" connotations?
...and I replied, in part:

Originally posted by Brian Griffin
Somewhere, I have a reference that states this association explicitly. Naturally enough, I can't seem to lay my hands on the darn thing when I need it.
Well, as luck would have it, I just came across the quote I couldn't find back then. Coincidentally enough, it's by the late Trevor Leggett.
In this passage, he's explaining some of the symbolism employed in zen koan, and in zen allusions found in (Japanese) literature.

from Trevor Leggett, 'A First Zen Reader" p. 18
Again, a novice in anything is associated with the colour white and an expert with black, so the "white-robed" in the Case of the White Hare has the connotation of a spiritual beginner.
I think this explains Kano's choice of colors quite nicely.