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Chad Bruttomesso
9th December 2001, 11:03
Over time we have had several threads dealing with why people should start Aikido, what they can gain from it and so forth. A question that has intrigued me is,“Why do people continue practicing Aikido”?

During my time in Aikido I have seen people come and go on a fairly regular basis but only a few stick with it for several years. Those people that stick with it seem to have several reasons as to why they continue. Of course there are those people who drop off to just doing seminars or maybe a couple of days a month. I am curious about those individuals who make Aikido a part of their daily life in one form or another. How do you balance family, work and Budo? What are your long-term goals, etc?

I ask, not because I am planning on throwing in the towel anytime soon (I have just relocated to Tokyo and am training several days a week), but because opinions change with experience and time. I think that it might be intriguing to discover whether or not what keeps us coming back is different than what brought us to Aikido in the first place.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Chad Bruttomesso

P Goldsbury
9th December 2001, 12:03
Originally posted by Chad Bruttomesso
Over time we have had several threads dealing with why people should start Aikido, what they can gain from it and so forth. A question that has intrigued me is,“Why do people continue practicing Aikido?

During my time in Aikido I have seen people come and go on a fairly regular basis but only a few stick with it for several years. Those people that stick with it seem to have several reasons as to why they continue. Of course there are those people who drop off to just doing seminars or maybe a couple of days a month. I am curious about those individuals who make Aikido a part of their daily life in one form or another. How do you balance family, work and Budo? What are your long-term goals, etc?

I ask, not because I am planning on throwing in the towel anytime soon (I have just relocated to Tokyo and am training several days a week), but because opinions change with experience and time. I think that it might be intriguing to discover whether or not what keeps us coming back is different than what brought us to Aikido in the first place.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Chad Bruttomesso

Chad,

One of the reasons why I like E-budo.com is that is has a broader range than a forum devoted only to aikido. Thus, we aikidoists can see how other budoka manage their lives and deal with the joys and sorrows of their respective arts. But I have rarely seen threads asking why those who practise the various koryu continue to do so after their lives change (marriage, children etc).

Thus, I pose the question to you. Why would one's commitment to aikido, as a (possibly essential) part of one's daily life, be any different from a similar commitment to a koryu like kashima shin-ryu, for example? Do opinions/motivations about practising kashima shinto-ryu change with the passage of time? As you seem to suggest about aikido.

For myself, very soon after beginning aikido I realised that this is an art that one can practise for a lifetime. Another, equally important, reason is that practise/training (no matter what one calls it) is intensely enjoyable, despite the pain and the occasional 'politics'.

And another point. If I understand the opening lines of your post correctly, you suggest that beginning aikido is no big deal, but continuing to practise is most certainly a very big deal, since most people stop. It would be a very interesting exercise to compare a 'gendai budo' like aikido with something more traditional like Daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu. What is the relative attrition rate?

I would not be surpised to find that the attrition rate was larger in a 'gendai budo' like aikido than in a koryu like kashima shin-ryu, but I have absolutely no data whatever to back up my assumption. But I would be very surprised indeed to discover that the reasons why people continue to practise aikido were fundamentally different from the reasons why people like K. Friday and W. Bodiford (just to compare academics, like myself) continue to practise.

Finally, welcome to Japan. Where do you train?

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury
_____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

Gil Gillespie
9th December 2001, 14:54
Great timing, Chad. The first new aikido thread since the recent forum hiccup and on the heels of an associate's claim that my aikido is a "hobby." With every description of my training (physically rewarding, endlessly challenging, think about it all the time when I'm not doing it, rewards of bringing new people along and watching them grow, et al) he responded "Right, a hobby. No different than golf or bowling."

Sheesh, that really hurt! When I got into the in-yo interconnection of "grind the stone/ polish the mirror" (hard practical technique training/ introspective refinement of technique and spirit) he laughed and replied "Oh all that new age drivel that's watering down "real" martial arts. Y'all play Yanni while you work out?" OK He don't get it. But he's got me thinking now. . .

I guess nothing hones and clarifies our reality or goals like defending them. I'm going through that now. I never replied "because I can't NOT train," because I knew that was totally out of the box for his thinking and easily blown out of the water. So OK smartass why do I still do aikido?

The one thing that intrigued him was that practical fighting/ self defense was not why I trained. After his expected snort I went into O-Sensei, arguably the greatest multi-faceted fighter ever who sought and attained a higher level. That we're all somehow training in his footsteps (often before the symbolic presence of his portrait). And that we're all exhilerated to be on "The Path," knowing full well we'll never get "there." He had a ball with that one, but he's very into those mindblowing images from the Hubble telescope so a few easy metaphors calmed his waters.

Then I got into the experience of entering a traditional dojo, leaving the profane world outside, transforming our spirits and mindsets when we change into our uniforms, that no matter how severe the crucible of our training there's a personally crafted "halo" to the whole experience that makes it different than the 4th Street Gym.

"Oh, it's a religion. You all in your weird black skirts and arcane jargon (budo Japanese). Might as well chant 'Krishna rama.' Y'all drink kool-aid for your black belt test?" No, it's not a religion, even though you totally missed the boat on its inherent spirituality. And it's not cultish, even though Joe Mainstream might be totally freaked if he stumbled into a high energy aikido dojo. WAL-MART Americans need every experience to explode in their face like a rock video. They don't have the hard wiring to understand how spirituality can quietly underscore mundane activities in the Japanese world, any more than they understood that when pillaging the Shawnees, Cheyennes, or Hopis.

There was a glimmer of a breakthrough when I explained that in the "real world" I would never try to hit a sandan in his head. But in the dojo I do it dozens of times a night. Not that I won't get my nose rubbed into the canvas, but that in aikido we offer ourselves full bore to our partners, trusting that afterwards our bodies will be returned to us in better condition than when class started. There's a bond there. And those people I trust form a community. I feel good looking around the mat being with them again. And we all know that when we leave "the outrageous slings and arrows" of the mundane world outside and sit in seiza and our sensei walks out to the center of the mat, there is no where else that we would rather be.

Some hobby.

autrelle
9th December 2001, 17:36
i just love training. i am starting to see that there is so much nuance and subtlety to Aikido. everytime i attend a seminar (the most recent was Ledyard Sensei in gainesville), i am amazed at how much more i can see, in regard to how the waza is woking. it blows me away. humbles me. makes me want to learn more. i have not been 'in the game' for so long (started 1994), but these days i have become a basics addict! there's so much to kihon waza, that everytime i go to a seminar, i really, really hope that we do nothing but basics. i love it. plus, personally, i just find joy in training.

yours truly

Chad Bruttomesso
10th December 2001, 02:53
Mr. Goldsbury,

Thank you very much for your reply to my inquiry. I too agree that one of the joys of E-Budo is that we can learn about various Koryu, Gendai arts and related topics. I believe that having this broader range of knowledge and discussion lends itself to affording people a glimpse of different arts other than Aikido.

In reply to your question, I am not sure that one’s commitment to Aikido is any different than one’s commitment to any other art whether it be Koryu or Gendai. The reason for this is that how can we possibly compare one person devoted to Aikido and another who is just as passionately devoted to a Koryu. I think that it would be very intriguing to find out whether or not opinions/motivations about practicing a Koryu change with the passage of time. Personally, I am not in any position to say one way or the other on this. I think that with the passage of time opinions can change/mature/evolve into more profound meanings for various individuals. By this I mean that a person may begin Aikido because they think it would be a great form of self-defense. With the passage of time that individual may come to believe that Aikido is much more than just a form of self-defense. In fact, that person may begin to believe that Aikido is helping them to develop on a spiritual level as well as a physical one. Another example might be that a person starts painting because they would like to have something to do on Thursday nights and there aren’t any other classes close to their house. Over time they realize that painting affords them the outlet to express their passions that wasn’t previously part of their life. This is what I mean by opinions changing over time.

I must apologize; I did not make myself clear on this point (opening lines of my post). Beginning Aikido is no big deal for some people (i.e. I have know people who started Aikido because all their friends were doing it and they were bored sitting alone at home on those nights, other people wanted to do some sort of Budo while they were in Japan and the local Aikido dojo was the closest to their house, another person I met thought that the “Aikido” they saw in a movie was really cool and wanted to be able to throw people around like that, just to name a few of what I view are the rather silly reasons I have heard) but starting is a big deal for most people. I do not have any statistics as to the number of people that stop training in Aikido. The only valid data I have is through personal observation of those people I started training with, which individuals are still training and which are not.

I like to think that I try my best to make fairly educated decisions, thus, when I started Aikido I researched the subject first through talking to people, reading books and visiting a dojo (the only one in town). I then took this information, both positive and negative, and made the decision to start training. I have never regretted this decision. Possibly, the attrition rate of a ‘gendai budo’ is higher than that of a Koryu. I say this because often to join a Koryu group is much more difficult than joining an Aikido dojo. I am not saying that either one is good or bad; I am just making an observation. Most Aikido dojo I have been to only require that a few forms be signed, a class observed and the fees paid before training for the first time. In the Koryu it often takes an introduction from a member of the dojo to the sensei for the new member, the new member must demonstrate their eagerness and ability to learn, then after a certain amount of time that person may or may not be accepted into the Koryu.

I too would be surprised to learn that the reasons people continue training/practicisn Koryu are significantly different than the reasons people continue practicing/training in Aikido.

Thank you very much for your time.

Chad Bruttomesso

P Goldsbury
11th December 2001, 05:15
A few days ago I want to a demonstration of kobudo held at the Itsukushima Shrine near here. I saw many spectacular demonstrations and then met up with the Daito-ryu members and their teacher, Mr Katsuyuki Kondo. Over lunch we talked. Here was a cross-section of members of an old-established budo from which aikido derives it roots. Most of the members had been training for years, decades even, but it was clear to me that we all seeemed to practise, and continue practising, for similar reasons (relating to technical proficiency in our respective arts and the spiritual/philosophical values which training embodies).

Owing to its rapid postwar expansion and the postwar emphasis on aikido as a 'universal'/'peaceful' budo, aikido is much more accessible than it was. You can even see advertisements in the local phone book. Thus, I can see that people who start out by 'giving it a try' and realise there is more to it than they first thought could well change their reasons for continuing to train. But when I first started, aikido was presented to me right from the beginning as a budo (i) to be practised for life and (ii) one where all the spiritual / philosophical values it embodies had to be absorbed by a similar level of hard work and effort to that which one expends on learning the techniques. I wonder whether my experience is unusual.

I am sure that many people stop training because they do not have the time to train at a level of intensity which satisfies them. Other people stop because they find it is not the martial art they are looking for. But I am more interested in those who stop training because they believe that there are 'structural' defects, either in the art itself or in the way it is usually taught.

I am sure that your initial question is a valid one, but I am struck by the fact that it is very unlikely that the question would ever have been asked before, say, 1950.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury
_____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

Yamantaka
11th December 2001, 12:11
Excellent thread, Excellent posts!

I'd say that, in my opinion, the answer seems to be quite simple.
Martial arts are just that : ARTS. We do them because we love them and we are always enthralled by their rewarding beauty (to us, at least...)
Once I asked DIANE SKOSS (wife of the savage one...;) to write something for my book WARRIORS AND SAGES. She wrote this magnificent essay :

http://koryu.com/library/dskoss6.html

one which I sincerely believe explains a lot of why we practice martial arts. And we keep practicing them for all our lifes, if not physically, at least on our minds...
Best

Yamantaka
11th December 2001, 12:13
Originally posted by Yamantaka
Excellent thread, Excellent posts!

I'd say that, in my opinion, the answer seems to be quite simple.
Martial arts are just that : ARTS. We do them because we love them and we are always enthralled by their rewarding beauty (to us, at least...). Some people feel the same for other arts (Music, sculpture, painting, dancing...). Not many continue for life, the same way as it happens in Aikido.
Once I asked DIANE SKOSS (wife of the savage one...;) to write something for my book WARRIORS AND SAGES. She wrote this magnificent essay :

http://koryu.com/library/dskoss6.html

one which I sincerely believe explains a lot of why we practice martial arts. And some of us keep practicing them for all our lifes, if not physically, at least on our minds...
Best

Joseph Svinth
11th December 2001, 17:41
For many people, their practice of MA *is* a hobby.

1. The definition of hobby is "a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation." I know very few people who train more than they work, or who derive the majority of their income from their martial arts.

2. On a scale of skill, while there are all sorts of Super Sokeys, most of them talk bigger than they play. Indeed, if MA were basketball, most of the high grades would be coaching rec league at the Y. A few might have played a little college ball, but no matter how desperately they fantasize, the Lakers won't be calling them any time soon.

Thus the levels at which most people play are probably most fairly described as recreational, with hobbyist representing a more dedicated level that most people will never achieve (nor, truth be told, seriously aspire to).

Nonetheless, if "hobby" *isn't* quite right, then how about "habit"? For this word, definitions include: "A costume characteristic of a calling" (a black belt and hakama, perhaps?); "prevailing character and the disposition of one's thoughts" (the old saw about MA builds character); "an acquired mode of behavior that has become nearly or completely involuntary"; "addiction"; and "habit implies a doing unconsciously and often compulsively." Certainly this seems to describe what is being described.

If so, then the answer is simple: for some people, training becomes a habit, while for others it does not. If a habit, it is not a hobby, but if a hobby, it is not a habit.

R. Scherzinger
11th December 2001, 17:45
Peter,

I find your new question interesting in that how can a true beginning student be an accurate judge of Aikido. They have no base of reference with which to judge the system, so the only reference they have is what they perceive Aikido to be. This does not address the question of “structural defect”. The defect could only be within themselves, right? The point being is that a great deal of testing has occurred since Aikido’s founding and yes there have been modifications to the system overt and covert, but the foundations that govern its movement and application have remained a constant. We are all human beings and we all live on earth and so the physical laws that govern our movement are constant.

The teacher thing is totally different. As we grow in Aikido I am sure that there are times to leave the nest as it were and fly. This means that say student X has trained with his sensei for 2 years. His teacher is unaffiliated and receives no governing instruction to speak of. It is time for X to move on. How about the o’l riff between instructor and student or that their goals change and the student is no longer seeking the same Aiki path that the teacher has chosen (Tohei sensei). In my case my second sensei was very talented, but slightly abusive. I believed his training was worth his verbal onslaught. Over time this began to wear thin and so I left to find a new home. The thing that I did not bargain for was the snap back during my search for a new home. Its always hard joining a new pack and it is not always a “are you ok with them” issue. The student base can also not want you too, so whether or not you like the dojo and the dojocho you may not be able to stay. This is the one training issue that blows me away in Aikido. Kempo or Karate no problem, but in Aikido it freaks me every time.

I train because I believe in the path that Osensei cut and yes for me it is an avocation. My core art is Kempo, but I can enter an Aikido dojo with a certain amount of anonymity and train just for trainings sake. I am not trying to lead the pack or hold an organization together. I just go in, grab hold, and watch my learning process. I have enjoyed Aiki for 10yrs. now and I still get excited going to the dojo.

Regards,
Rem

sanskara
12th December 2001, 01:10
I might be the fish out of water in this thread, as I trained Aikido for years, quite ferverently, and then quit about a year ago. For me, I was in it for self-defense and self-development. After years of political bullsh*t, I found ways to get better training in both--some methods originating from outside Aikido, others quite intrinsic to the practice.

Anyway, I left because of the structural defects eluded to by Mr. Goldsbury in his postings. As he and I have already discussed these matters in e-mail correspondence, I need not go into them specifically here. Nevertheless, suffice it to say that most hobbies, pursuits, and quests for Spirituality need not be hampered by a vertical hierarchy. Aikido, on the other hand, well, that's another story......


Regards,
James Bostwick

R. Scherzinger
12th December 2001, 01:42
James, et al.

Well I am sorry I took “structural defects” to imply that the art was some how misshapen. On the other hand if it was intended to reference the political cesspool that surrounds this art well then James you sir are wholly founded in your disapproval. I have known many Aikidoka who have left not because of the art but because of the politic. I find this to be true of the higher kyu ranks in the 1-2 year range. Not so with the disenchanted beginners.

I have, and my students have suffered greatly at the hands of organizational infighting and power mongering. This aspect does make me sick. But what are you going to do? Victor Frankel a noted psychotherapist says that we make our own environment and that we can only be affected/effected by events that we acknowledge and accept, very aiki. So subsequently I segregate my students and expose them directly to only certain instructors in Aikido.

Anyway it seems to me that Aikido is what you make of it. You have to put in some to get out some. People don’t want to put in and get upset when they get nothing out. It is about the process of Aikido not the product. This seems a difficult concept for a great deal of American society.

Regards,

Rem

Mike Collins
12th December 2001, 02:23
It's hard to keep training. Those who do, must overcome some mental roadblocks to do it. Are there any kind of common "stages" that an Aikidoka goes through after Shodan on through the point that training is just a fact of life, and no longer something one has to justify?

I ask because I'm in the process of trying to re-motivate myself to train. I feel like if I get past this, I'm likely to make a leap (hopefully a leap of consciousness), but the desire to train is waning.

Some of the excuses are politics, physical pain and embarrassment about fitness level because of the pain, work, family..... I'm sure I'm not the only person who's bumped into these walls, and I'm curious if it is a predictable stage after about 12 years or if I'm on my own.

I'm trying to use this as a lesson, rather than deciding that I'm done, but I'll be damned if I understand what lesson there is here.

Chris Li
12th December 2001, 03:43
Originally posted by R. Scherzinger
James, et al.

Well I am sorry I took structural defects to imply that the art was some how misshapen. On the other hand if it was intended to reference the political cesspool that surrounds this art well then James you sir are wholly founded in your disapproval. I have known many Aikidoka who have left not because of the art but because of the politic. I find this to be true of the higher kyu ranks in the 1-2 year range. Not so with the disenchanted beginners.

I have, and my students have suffered greatly at the hands of organizational infighting and power mongering. This aspect does make me sick. But what are you going to do? Victor Frankel a noted psychotherapist says that we make our own environment and that we can only be affected/effected by events that we acknowledge and accept, very aiki. So subsequently I segregate my students and expose them directly to only certain instructors in Aikido.

It's not an Aikido thing, it's a human thing. Politics exists everywhere - just look at the amount of backbiting and infighting in the academic world. I hear people complain about politics, and cite it as a reason for quitting, but the longer I go on the more it seems like an excuse. After all, there's really nothing stopping those people for going out and doing their own thing, apart from the political scene (and many people have, quite successfully). There's no requirement that you participate in the political game. You only "suffer" if you buy into the political structure itself - at which time you are part of the problem, rather than a victim.

What, after all, can they do to you if you refuse to play? Absolutely nothing.

Best,

Chris

P Goldsbury
12th December 2001, 07:26
My, this thread has become interesting. A few more random thoughts.

1. I think aikido can become a habit and with most people who continue to train it usually does. But it does not thereby cease to be a hobby. For those who practise the art professionally, I suppose it ceases to be a hobby, but still remains a habit, possibly an addiction.

2. Chad's original question was why people continue to train, and so I did not spend much time in earlier posts on why people stop aikido. But I am certain that people do indeed stop for 'structural' reasons and James Bostwick has confirmed this. For me, a 'structural' reason would have something to do with the credentials of aikido itself, considered as a budo: it does not do the things it claims to do. Personally, I would think that the people who go so far as to stop aikido for such reasons are relatively few in number.

3. People might also include among the 'structural' aspects of aikido the way it is taught, but I am not sure about this. In fact, I often wonder whether aikido is really 'teachable'. It is eminently learnable, but the onus is firmly on the person doing it, not on the teacher. In this respect, to me aikido is a bit like philosophy (which it is my job to teach in the university where I am employed). You can see it in action and can have it shown to you. And of course, you can also do it yourself. But I am often conscious that I am teaching my students about philosophy, rather than the thing itself.

It is pretty clear that the Founder did not teach the art, but it is less clear why this is. (One reason might be that he had not in fact worked out for himself what aikido really was. Another reason might be that he believed, like I have suggested above, that aikido could only be shown. Another reason--sacrilege!!--might be that he was not very good at teaching, i.e., presenting the art as a set of easily graspable steps.) And I know at least one Japanese instructor in Europe who believes that the common practise of just 'showing' and letting the students work out things for themselves is seriously mistaken.

Of course, no matter whether aikido is really 'teachable' or not, the sensei's responsibility is very great and I do not doubt that very many people have stopped practice as a result of bad experiences with their instructors. In fact, if you interpret 'sensei' or 'shihan' in the traditional Japanese way ('sensei' = one who has prior experience; 'shihan' = someone who is a model) and regard the sensei as a partial summation of all the possibilities afforded by the art, there are actually not many I would care to spend much time with/on (and this realisation came as something of a shock).

3. I have never considered 'politics' as one of the 'structural' reasons why people might stop training. Like Chris Li, I think of politics as an element (possibly essential, like humour--I do not know) of any human social structure. As far as I understand the history of the martial arts in Japan, there has always been politics, right from the very beginning and I never expected aikido to be any different. When I started there was our small dojo, with just six beginners and our teacher. But then we had to think about grades etc, which meant joining organisations. We did not think negatively about this: it was just something you had to think about if you wanted a grade.

4. Of course, I cannot deny that politics has a large place--too large a place--in the aikido world, and this is another reason why people stop. They become sick of it. But I suspect that the politics will increase as the aikido world becomes more and more fragmented. Since coming to Japan, I have been fortunate in being able to marginalise the politics of aikido as it affects me and largely separate it from my aikido practice. I am pretty sure that if I had not been able to do this, I would have given up aikido altogether.

5. So, as Chad asked, why continue? Well, Joseph Svinth's post about habits reminded me of Aristotle, who writes much about habits in his ethical works. He also has quite a lot to say about pleasure/happiness, which he regards as actions, and distinguishes actions which contain their own goals from actions which lead to other, separate goals. So, when an accomplished pianist plays a concerto, there is nothing left at the end, beyond the lingering pleasure he has given himself and the audience, if there is one). The fact that aikido usually requires at least two people complicates the picture only slightly. Of course, such a pleasurable activity can be a hobby, or a habit, and it might even become addictive. But if it is not pleasurable in some fundamental sense, it is not worth doing.

Finally, last night I trained with some students at the university club (I was not teaching the class). They were preparing for a grading test and so we went through the basic techniques of 1kyo to 4kyo, done standing and sitting. I have now practised such techniques for over 30 years and it still gives me much satisfaction to do them well: to achieve a good match with my partner, in terms of intention and action. It was also good to see the pleasure in my partner's eyes when he knew he had done a technique well.

A few random thoughts, which turned into a lecture. Apologies.

Best regards to all,
_______________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

sanskara
12th December 2001, 08:54
Originally posted by Chris Li


I hear people complain about politics, and cite it as a reason for quitting, but the longer I go on the more it seems like an excuse. After all, there's really nothing stopping those people for going out and doing their own thing, apart from the political scene (and many people have, quite successfully). There's no requirement that you participate in the political game. You only "suffer" if you buy into the political structure itself - at which time you are part of the problem, rather than a victim.

What, after all, can they do to you if you refuse to play? Absolutely nothing.

Best,

Chris

Nice of you to say, Chris. Without realizing it, though, you're not describing my situation. I don't need a reason to quit the organized Aikido Dojo scene or an excuse to bitch. I might if I were a pre-school kid who was just getting his feet wet in the art, didn't get what he wanted immediately, and then stomped off like some sort of princess, but that's not the case.

I have gone on to do "my own thing" quite successfully, and I wouldn't be on BB's like this one and Aikido Journal if I didn't think that there were some good people out there, doing good training, and some reason to stay in contact with the art.

Politics affect everyone that chooses to train in an organization to some extent; there is no voluntarily checking out of the system while concurrently maintaining a working relationship with the structure--that in its very essence is what it means to be part of a vertical hierarchy: fall in or get out. I think Mr. Goldsbury represents this concept quite brilliantly in his writings--although, whether or not he would agree with my usage and direction of the concept within this context is another matter entirely.

Still, when I read your last posting I can't help but think you're implying some sort of weakness in character for those who get disgruntled enough with the Aikido scene to leave it, but then turn around and tell everyone why. It's possible that "we" are whining unneccessarily. On the other hand, maybe if people considered what we have to say (as many leave with nary a word of explanation) something could be learned from the experience. Or are you not interested in improving things? I suppose that's entirely possible as well.

--James Bostwick

P Goldsbury
12th December 2001, 09:08
Rem,

After I posted my 'random thoughts', I saw I had not responded to your own point. So here are a few more.


Originally posted by R. Scherzinger
Peter,

I find your new question interesting in that how can a true beginning student be an accurate judge of Aikido. They have no base of reference with which to judge the system, so the only reference they have is what they perceive Aikido to be.

PAG. Of course, you are right, but this was equally true for the uchi-deshi like Kenji Tomiki and Rinjiro Shirata, who joined the the Founder in the 1920s and 1930s. So, unless your judgement of aikido is fundamentally misconceived, the art (whether aiki-budo, or aikido) is something you can grow into. Someone like Rinjiro Shirata was sponsored by his father and probably by Onisaburo Deguchi, so he had family honour to uphold. Thus it is probable that his initial judgement of aikido probably gained in accuracy the more he practised. Perhaps it is something like walking into marriage relationship. It is probably best to do it with your eyes open, but the initial judgement is not necessary a good guide as to how the relationship will eventually turn out. (Oh, and at the time Shirata Sensei entered the Kobukan in 1932, arranged marriages were the rule in Japan.)

This does not address the question of structural defect. The defect could only be within themselves, right?

PAG. I am not sure about this. Consider, for example, Kenji Tomiki's experience with O Sensei. At some point Tomiki Sensei decided that some form of competition was essential to aikido. Was he talking about a structural factor, or simply about the way aikido should be taught? It is hard to say. But here was one of O Sensei's oldest students with very definite views about aikido, views which he stuck to despite O Sensei's objections (if we are to accept what Kisshomaru states in "Aikido Ichiro"). So, I would not want to say that the 'structural' aspect of aikido is a closed question.

The point being is that a great deal of testing has occurred since Aikido's founding and yes there have been modifications to the system overt and covert, but the foundations that govern its movement and application have remained a constant. We are all human beings and we all live on earth and so the physical laws that govern our movement are constant.

PAG. Yes, absolutely. But this is also why people stop aikido. I also think this does not respond to the point about Tomiki Sensei and competition.

Regards,
Rem

And to you, too
_____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

jdstorm
12th December 2001, 19:35
Mike,

I had a similar experience after around 12 years of training. I was chronically injured and fed up with certain aspects of my aikido training and the aikido world. I decided to explore some other martial arts (mainly an eclectic Shotokan-variant) and I had a great time. I kept in contact with my aikido dojo and luckily for me, my sensei was extremely open to whatever path I needed to be on at the time and I was always welcome back at the dojo. I stayed connected and eventually found myself back training at the aikido dojo after about a 4 year hiatus. It was difficult to come back, but well worth it.

I definitely "lost" some aikido training time by exploring other arts, but for me, it was necessary. I continue to explore and train in whatever seems relevent to me, but I feel that aikido will remain part of my life. I enjoy the perspective on martial training that I now have - that I could not have had without "going away" for awhile. I also appreciate how "different" aikido is than any other martial art I've studied. That of course is another interesting topic for discussion.

Ultimately, if you love or have loved aikido it will always be a part of you - you may come up with a different solution to your current plateau stage, but if you follow your instincts you will stay on your path, even if that path leads you away from aikido. However, I am not advocating that you should stop training, but you may want to emphasize it in a different way. Or, just grit your teeth and keep going! That often works better than anything and you learn alot from it.

I hope this helps and I'd be interested in hearing what you end up doing.

Jill Dietmeyer

Chris Li
12th December 2001, 23:52
Originally posted by sanskara


Nice of you to say, Chris. Without realizing it, though, you're not describing my situation. I don't need a reason to quit the organized Aikido Dojo scene or an excuse to bitch. I might if I were a pre-school kid who was just getting his feet wet in the art, didn't get what he wanted immediately, and then stomped off like some sort of princess, but that's not the case.

I have gone on to do "my own thing" quite successfully, and I wouldn't be on BB's like this one and Aikido Journal if I didn't think that there were some good people out there, doing good training, and some reason to stay in contact with the art.

First of all, I wasn't attempting to describe your situation in particular, mainly because I have no idea what your situation is :) . Secondly, I don't think that I ever used any terms like "stomped off like a princess" - what I was saying was that there are many things used as excuses to quit any activity, and politics is one of them. Thirdly, since you did go out on your own than what I said about using politics as an excuse to quit doesn't apply to you, so I'm not sure why you seem so touchy about it.


Politics affect everyone that chooses to train in an organization to some extent; there is no voluntarily checking out of the system while concurrently maintaining a working relationship with the structure--that in its very essence is what it means to be part of a vertical hierarchy: fall in or get out. I think Mr. Goldsbury represents this concept quite brilliantly in his writings--although, whether or not he would agree with my usage and direction of the concept within this context is another matter entirely.

In general, yes, although I do know people who have voluntarily checked out of the system while maintining good working relationships, or people who have checked out but later returned without problems.

The question that I have to ask is why would you want to remain in a working relationship with an organization that you have problems with? The only reason to belong to an organization is that it benefits you in some way. Virtually the only power held by Aikido organizations is that of granting rank, but that power is really quite imaginary - it only holds water if you buy into the illusion that it does. Given that there is really little material benefit to remaining, why is it such a big deal to check out?


Still, when I read your last posting I can't help but think you're implying some sort of weakness in character for those who get disgruntled enough with the Aikido scene to leave it, but then turn around and tell everyone why. It's possible that "we" are whining unneccessarily. On the other hand, maybe if people considered what we have to say (as many leave with nary a word of explanation) something could be learned from the experience. Or are you not interested in improving things? I suppose that's entirely possible as well.

--James Bostwick

I think that you're confusing the Aikido "scene" with Aikido "organizations". I never said that people who left a particular organization had a weakness in character - I've been in and out of a number without being the worse for wear. What I was talking about is people using politics as an excuse to stop training all together.

Best,

Chris

sanskara
13th December 2001, 00:37
First of all, I wasn't attempting to describe your situation in particular, mainly because I have no idea what your situation is :) .

Who's situation were you attempting to describe then? Without qualifying statements it's hard to tell. I described my situation, you chimed in with a reply, I made a very natural assumption.



Secondly, I don't think that I ever used any terms like "stomped off like a princess" - what I was saying was that there are many things used as excuses to quit any activity, and politics is one of them. Thirdly, since you did go out on your own than what I said about using politics as an excuse to quit doesn't apply to you, so I'm not sure why you seem so touchy about it.

I never said you used those terms. As for being touchy about things, that's possible.



The question that I have to ask is why would you want to remain in a working relationship with an organization that you have problems with?

I don't know, you're asking the wrong guy that question.


The only reason to belong to an organization is that it benefits you in some way. Virtually the only power held by Aikido organizations is that of granting rank, but that power is really quite imaginary - it only holds water if you buy into the illusion that it does. Given that there is really little material benefit to remaining, why is it such a big deal to check out?

Ah yes, they do have the power to grant rank. But over here in this Western Culture a piece of paper is more important than skill. As I attend the seminars of many "respected" instructors in the U.S., I'm reminded that talent and ability are not necessarily the determining factors regarding fame, popularity, and success in commercialized martial arts. If you do not have rank and the backing of higher-ups, you cannot teach or represent the art in any REAL capacity. There are no competitions or challenges in Aikido so you can't prove yourself that way. If you don't have a piece of paper, essentially you don't exist in Aikido.



I think that you're confusing the Aikido "scene" with Aikido "organizations". I never said that people who left a particular organization had a weakness in character - I've been in and out of a number without being the worse for wear. What I was talking about is people using politics as an excuse to stop training all together.

Yeah, I never said that you said that. I try to choose my words carefully to avoid this kind of boring clarification that plagues so many threads. Also, you've posted responses about this very subject matter on Aikido Journal. And after reading those, I walked away with the same conclusions. No big deal, I just notice you're often quick to jump on and criticize those who leave Aikido and then tell others about it. Not serious criticisms, mind you, just counter-statements and the like--maybe for the purposes of keeping things interesting.

--James Bostwick

Chris Li
13th December 2001, 00:52
Originally posted by sanskara
Ah yes, they do have the power to grant rank. But over here in this Western Culture a piece of paper is more important than skill. As I attend the seminars of many "respected" instructors in the U.S., I'm reminded that talent and ability are not necessarily the determining factors regarding fame, popularity, and success in commercialized martial arts. If you do not have rank and the backing of higher-ups, you cannot teach or represent the art in any REAL capacity. There are no competitions or challenges in Aikido so you can't prove yourself that way. If you don't have a piece of paper, essentially you don't exist in Aikido.

On the other hand, I've trained with any number of people who had quite successful dojo and more without having certification from major organizations. How exactly do you not exist in Aikido? Open a dojo in your home town and people will show up or not - 99% of them have no idea what the deal is with the organizations anyway.

Morihei Ueshiba, for that matter, didn't have rank or the backing of higher ups (at least, not martial arts higher-ups), and he did quite well despite the fact that Japan is, if anything, even more rank and certification oriented than the US (and he did manage to prove himself without competition, although I will note that there are at least two major Aikido organizations who DO practice some form of competition). I'm not sure what "backing up" means in any case, because in many organizations there is exactly zero support given to small local dojo, and many of them seem to do quite well in spite of that.


Yeah, I never said that you said that. I try to choose my words carefully to avoid this kind of boring clarification that plagues so many threads. Also, you've posted responses about this very subject matter on Aikido Journal. And after reading those, I walked away with the same conclusions. No big deal, I just notice you're often quick to jump on and criticize those who leave Aikido and then tell others about it. Not serious criticisms, mind you, just counter-statements and the like--maybe for the purposes of keeping things interesting.

--James Bostwick

I did indeed make those postings, and the content was the same - criticism of the use of politics as an excuse to quit training, but nothing at all criticizing people who leave any particular organization.

Best,

Chris

sanskara
13th December 2001, 02:39
On the other hand, I've trained with any number of people who had quite successful dojo and more without having certification from major organizations.

Who said anything about certification from "major" Aikido organizations, just certifications in general will suffice.


Morihei Ueshiba, for that matter, didn't have rank or the backing of higher ups (at least, not martial arts higher-ups), and he did quite well despite the fact that Japan is, if anything, even more rank and certification oriented than the US (and he did manage to prove himself without competition, although I will note that there are at least two major Aikido organizations who DO practice some form of competition). I'm not sure what "backing up" means in any case, because in many organizations there is exactly zero support given to small local dojo, and many of them seem to do quite well in spite of that.

You're kidding, right? I don't even know where to begin with what's wrong with that statement--a little remedial history of the life of Ueshiba might be in order. As for the Shodokan and the Ki no Kenkyukai--again, you're kidding, right? If you walk into a Brazilian Jiujitsu Dojo and challenge an instructor, they'll roll with you. And if you're good, they'll give you credit, and you can make a name for yourself (if you care about that sort of thing.) Try doing that in an Aikido Dojo and see where it gets you.




I did indeed make those postings, and the content was the same - criticism of the use of politics as an excuse to quit training, but nothing at all criticizing people who leave any particular organization.


Yeah, but I always walk away from your postings thinking that you "get off" a little on correcting and admonishing people's statements. I guess that can be fun in moderation, but I don't know when was the last time I heard you actually agree with someone and say something constructive. That's alright, though, nobody's perfect.

--James

Chris Li
13th December 2001, 04:59
Originally posted by sanskara
Who said anything about certification from "major" Aikido organizations, just certifications in general will suffice.

How about "without any significant certification at all"? A lot of effort often goes into advertising a teacher's qualifications, but in all honesty, your average walk off the street beginner probably doesn't know the difference anyway. That's probably one of the reasons that so many people with bogus credentials end up with huge followings...




You're kidding, right? I don't even know where to begin with what's wrong with that statement--a little remedial history of the life of Ueshiba might be in order.

Well, the only valid certification that's ever been established for M. Ueshiba is an assistant instructor's certificate in Daito-ryu. He had no specific support from above (above as in the martial arts chain, not as in prestigious students) because the only person above him was Sokaku Takeda. Sokaku Takeda didn't particularly back him up after a certain point - although he did end up appropriating the Asahi Shinbun dojo from Ueshiba :-).


As for the Shodokan and the Ki no Kenkyukai--again, you're kidding, right? If you walk into a Brazilian Jiujitsu Dojo and challenge an instructor, they'll roll with you. And if you're good, they'll give you credit, and you can make a name for yourself (if you care about that sort of thing.) Try doing that in an Aikido Dojo and see where it gets you.

There are Aikido people who will do that, although agreed, not many. On the other hand, a lot of martial artists won't take challenges, and there are other ways to establish your reputation in the Aikido world. Right now I train at three different dojo - two are Aikikai and one is independent. As it works out, the independent dojo has a larger enrollment then the two Aikikai dojo combined. That without the rank certificates or "backup" from an outside organization. It is possible. Is it easier if you affiliate with a larger organization? Maybe, but in return for that you're obligated to follow the rules of the organization - which is only reasonable, right? After all, there's no such thing as a free lunch.


Yeah, but I always walk away from your postings thinking that you "get off" a little on correcting and admonishing people's statements. I guess that can be fun in moderation, but I don't know when was the last time I heard you actually agree with someone and say something constructive. That's alright, though, nobody's perfect.

--James

The main thing is that I just personally have a distaste for "me too" posts. If I can't add something new or different I generally just don't post at all.

Best,

Chris

sanskara
13th December 2001, 05:37
How about "without any significant certification at all"? A lot of effort often goes into advertising a teacher's qualifications, but in all honesty, your average walk off the street beginner probably doesn't know the difference anyway. That's probably one of the reasons that so many people with bogus credentials end up with huge followings...

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It would be an interesting experiment to take someone, for example, who's talented in another martial art, have them learn some rudimentary Aikido, set them up in a Dojo, and see how many people question their credentials. Nevertheless, I think that here in the SF Bay, you'd have a hard time pulling something like that off; not because people here aren't stupid just like everywhere, but because here it's more important for things to look right than to be right. In other words, they want to see certificates on the wall and quotes from famous martial artists in your yellow pages add. Unless you were going to out and out lie, it would be tough to start a successful Dojo without support from above.



Well, the only valid certification that's ever been established for M. Ueshiba is an assistant instructor's certificate in Daito-ryu. He had no specific support from above (above as in the martial arts chain, not as in prestigious students) because the only person above him was Sokaku Takeda. Sokaku Takeda didn't particularly back him up after a certain point - although he did end up appropriating the Asahi Shinbun dojo from Ueshiba :-).

Yeah, but the Kyoju Dairi carried some weight back then. Granted, Sokaku did hand out at least one honorary Menkyo Kaiden post-Ueshiba. Still, he was famous in Japan at the time, and saying that you studied with him would have probably meant something.




There are Aikido people who will do that, although agreed, not many. On the other hand, a lot of martial artists won't take challenges, and there are other ways to establish your reputation in the Aikido world.

Yeah, the whole challenges reference was about keeping things honest in the art, not so much about beating the crap out of established instructors--to some degree, that would be like shooting fish in a barrel. And then when I reached middle age, someone would probably do the same thing to me.


Right now I train at three different dojo - two are Aikikai and one is independent. As it works out, the independent dojo has a larger enrollment then the two Aikikai dojo combined. That without the rank certificates or "backup" from an outside organization. It is possible. Is it easier if you affiliate with a larger organization? Maybe, but in return for that you're obligated to follow the rules of the organization - which is only reasonable, right? After all, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

That's interesting. I've never heard of an independent Dojo over here drawing anything near a crowd.




The main thing is that I just personally have a distaste for "me too" posts. If I can't add something new or different I generally just don't post at all.

Well, there's something to be said for that as well. Everyone has their own style. I, on the other hand, like to reinforce quality whenever I see (if it's appropriate to do so.) Good posts, like good anything, tends to be a bit of a novelty, from my perspective.


--James

Chris Li
13th December 2001, 06:13
Originally posted by sanskara
That's interesting. I've never heard of an independent Dojo over here drawing anything near a crowd.

Actually the dojo is in Japan, but I've seen independent dojo in the US thrive as well. It depends on the teacher, and on the market, I suppose.

Best,

Chris

Dennis Hooker
14th December 2001, 19:18
I wrote this two years ago for ATM

Why We Continue to Train

I recently conducted a seminar in Pensacola Florida and was struck by the diversity of the people present. They ranged from flight students and instructors to doctors and housewives. They ranged in experience from rokudan to rokkyo, and the former was as eager to train and share my knowledge and life as were the latter. It is a humbling experience. During the first day one of the younger attendees made the remark that he was a little bored with coming to the dojo everyday, and doing shoman uchi ikkyo (the first technique of Aikido) got old after a while. Well as I have never been bored with anything concerning Aikido I took pause to consider this statement. I thought about why I was there along with another rokudan, godan, yondan, sandan, nidan and shodan along with a number of various kyu ranks. Looking at the more experienced Aikido folk, I knew I shared a bond with them that the younger people, especially the one that made the comment, did not or could not share. It.s a bond that transcends organizational structure. It.s an understanding that all Aikido, all budo students must eventually develop and nurture or they will soon become bored with technique. They will gain their shodan trophy (1st degree black belt) and move on to other endeavors. In doing so they will lose their grasp on the most precious gift offered by Aikido. That gift is not the ability to destroy another person, but a deep and abiding love of life.

This seminar had been postponed twice as I was going through another bout with a debilitating kidney illness and an episode of Myasthenia Gravis. When I finally got well enough to teach it, the seminar was rescheduled. Then ten days before the seminar I got a call that my mother was terminally ill with brain cancer.
Two days before the seminar I sat with my frail, terminally ill mother in my arms knowing it would be the last time I saw here alive, then I left to teach an Aikido seminar. I could never have brought myself to leave my grief and self-pity had it not been for Aikido, and its lessons taught to me over a very long time by some very fine people. I could not have left my dying mother, had I loved her less. Among her last words to me were .Denny, Aikido and Saotome saved your life, you have an obligation to pay them back, go.. So I went.

Standing there looking at my fellow students all this went through my mind and I knew I had to try and teach the young fellow that nothing about our learning Aikido is boring. I had to try and teach him something of ichi-go ichi-ye, about one time, one beginning. I had to try and teach him that every encounter is a first and last. I had to try and get across that nothing can be repeated and nothing can be practiced. It can only be experienced once, and then it is gone forever. How can you become bored with something you only do once? I had to try and teach him that each encounter with another of gods creations is a once in a life time event that can never be repeated nor taken back. Each encounter should be full and true, and never done with half a heart or half a mind. Each time you face another person and that person gives their body to you in technique then you hold that life in your hands. You hold in your power a gift more precious than gold, one that can never be replaced and is a unique and wondrous thing. How can you become bored with that? I had to try and teach that young man that accepting the gift of that life is an ominous and yet joyous responsibility. You accept it; you protect it and you return it better for the encounter. Then you offer your self in return. The uniqueness of good. Aikido is that we can do this in total trust and in so doing be all the richer for the encounter. I had to try and teach this young man we do not practice shoman uchi ikkyo. We experience it only once, and in that one experience we share a lifetime with another of gods beings. How can you be bored with that? You give yourself to me and I give myself to you in total trust, no equivocation or self-evasion what so ever. To learn to trust and be trusted is ikkyo. It is the first principle of Aikido, without which all other training becomes less by its measure. It is the first because it is the hardest. The hardest to learn and is the hardest to keep.

I had to also try and teach the young man that coming to the dojo everyday should not get old and should not need to be boring. As I looked at the faces of each of the more experienced men I knew they too embrace the concept of shoshin, of the beginner.s heart. How else could those .other. old worn down, tattered ragamuffins of old men, of whom I am one, be there. Our combined days of stepping through the doors of a dojo must be in the ten.s of thousands. Yet there we are class after class, seminar after seminar, day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade. Why do we not become bored to tears? It.s because each time we step through that door it.s with the heart of the beginner, and ready to encounter shoman uchi ikkyo for the first time, and we can hardly wait. Each time I hold my children, each time I kiss my grandchildren, each time I tell my wife I lover her, is the first and last time. And two days ago I held my mother for the first and last time. How, oh how, can one become bored with that? I am convinced that without Aikido this knowledge would have evaded me, this peace I have would ever have been. I don.t know if the young man really nderstood the lesson he got that day, but I hope so.

Wu Wei
15th December 2001, 05:35
Very interesting discussion. I started Aikido many years ago as a bachelor and now with a wife and family, the time element becomes more and more a commodity.

I consider(ed) myself a serious student but recently have not been able to make it to class as often as I would have liked. My teacher stopped teaching recently and the last few months I was only attending a couple times a month. I do train in another style and I'm probably spreading myself too thin (coud be another thread). However, I've always enjoyed the way the principles in Aikido can be generalized to everyday life. I just finished Ellis Amdur's book and he had a couple chapters demonstrating this which I found very interesting.

I am still hopeful to begin training in Aikido again - one day a week, and keep the other art to another day per week. Even though I may not make it to class as often as I would like, spread myself thinner in more than one style than I should (I never started another style until after gaining Shodan in my original style) and probably don't train as often as others may get to, I still enjoy it and find it has a positive impact in my life in general.

I don't train three hours a day, live in Japan, and attend class five days a week. I'm probably the more normal working stiff, raising a family, trying to make ends meet, and gaining a sense of accomplishment and positive enhancement through martial arts training that aren't afforded in other endeavors. This being a challenge in itself, is met with a wider gaze due to the individual development I gain through martial arts training.

Just some more random thoughts...

Joseph Svinth
15th December 2001, 12:35
Okay, I've played devil's advocate long enough. It's boxing, but the explanation still applies:

"Fighting is not simply something that they [boxers] do, an instrumental activity, a pastime and a side job separable from their persona... boxing is what they are: it defines at once their innermost identity, their practical attachments and everyday doings, and their access to and place in the public realm." Or, as the sociologist's informant puts it, boxing "becomes part of their inside, it becomes part of their heart, like you might say, they might wanna quit, they might not wanna come to the gym, but it's always a part of 'em: they're a fighter man!'"

Wacquand, Loïc J.D. "The Pugilistic Point of View: How Boxers feel about their Trade," November 1994, http://sociology.berkeley.edu/public_sociology/Wacquant.pdf , page 13

Wu Wei
15th December 2001, 19:37
I wonder, does the pugilistic mind set of boxing apply to Aikido? I'd like to hear others views on this.

Gil Gillespie
17th December 2001, 05:14
The"pugilistic mindset of boxing" only applies to aikido in the above mentioned overview of aikido being what you are, as opposed to merely being what you do. The shugyo of training in a boxing gym can be analogous to the rigors of a dojo, but the intent, the focus of boxing is to destroy. All boxing training is focused on preparing for later, for the bout months or weeks away. The aikido concept of ichi go ichi e is alien to boxing. The list goes on (fodder for another good thread, though).

The same difference of intent is overlooked in the above post comparing dojo bashing in BJJ to that of aikido. BJJ has exploded in popularity because of its emphasis on being the last man standing. It's focus is destroy before you are destroyed. It's a totally valid effective MA in that light, but that mindset should not be superimposed on aikido, which has entirely different objectives in the lifelong commitments of its practitioners.

Much of the perspective comes down to understanding katsujinken and satsujinken. Both are valid MA philosophies, but the mindsets are neither interchangeable nor congruent.

And sanskara, since you've become the arbitter of good posts on this website, you may want to start by signing your posts with your full name, so as to set an example for the rest of us who post so inadequately.

sanskara
17th December 2001, 09:01
Oh, okay.

Mike Collins
17th December 2001, 15:56
James,

That's a rule of this forum, and I think it's a good one. You'll find folks more friendly here if you comply.

sanskara
17th December 2001, 22:33
Mike,
I'm well aware of the rule and think it's a good idea. Outside of this thread, I've always signed my full name. But it's one thing for someone to ask that I be consistent with my signature, quite another to word a request thusly:


And sanskara, since you've become the arbitter of good posts on this website, you may want to start by signing your posts with your full name, so as to set an example for the rest of us who post so inadequately.

Mike Collins
17th December 2001, 22:46
Just so you realize that you've just done that which you are taking umbrage at.

Once in a while, ya just gotta shrug and say oh well.

Gil Gillespie
18th December 2001, 23:38
Hi James

You are entirely correct, and I am properly embarrassed. I apologize to you in all sincerity for the flippant insulting tone that came over me at the end of my post above. That attitude has always bothered about this website and there I went. "Bad karma accrues from actions without thought." Ne?

I differed with your view that good posts are hard to find and instead of responding in mature dialog I tossed off what I thought was tongue in cheek, but which reads most definitely foot in mouth. I always tell my daughter "Think before you say something; you can't take it back." Good advice; glad she follows it. Actually there's over 4000 members now and good posts ARE hard to find.

I'm really not a smarmy cockbite. I'm sorry I just acted like one.

Onagaeshimas'

sanskara
19th December 2001, 04:00
Wow, that's something you don't see every day, an apology on a BB. I'm stunned. Oh well, no harm done, and I'm not perfect by any means, so we'll call it even. Thanks for the clarification.