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INFINOO
11th December 2001, 22:20
Time for a new topic.
Several systems in the world of close quater combat have there own "universal training methodology". For instance in Aiki type arts the motions and principles are based on the sword staff. Once these principles are learned the empty hand principles work along the same lines, more or less with some minor alterations. In this way there is no need to learn seperate concepts for each weapon. The chinese military arts that I have been exposed to, also have this universal training approach. For instance the motions and tech for bayonet work the same way with the knife, although the range is differnt in each. I could go on but these examples are enough to get the ball rolling. So my question is this approach the same with other close combat systems that the members of E-budo practice, teach and use. Thanks for responding.

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International

charlesl
12th December 2001, 00:17
I train in SMR jo, a traditional japanese ma mostly focused on the staff, though there are several other weapons (sword, short sword, jutte (truncheon), kusari gama (sickle with chain), and short stick). Staff work and sword work are essentially variations of the same techniques. The short sword and truncheon techniques are very similar. I would say that each weapon borrows/loans principles to the other, and that the greater difficulty lies in learning each type of weapons range.

-Charles Lockhart
Honolulu, HI

Walker
12th December 2001, 08:51
Yes, I would say this crops up quite a bit. If you check on EJMAS there is an old text dealing with the similarity of boxing and bayonet. Boxing is related to the art of fence whence it acquired the jab. In more modern examples I think James Williams and Ken Good stress this aspect in their modern methodology adapted from the bugei.

sect_7
21st December 2001, 07:19
In what I practice, it is quite the opposite. Hands, hanbo, roshokubo, bo, etc. Using loger weapons refines movements. But this is useless withiut understanding the the principles of good taijutsu (natural body movement) Besides, the hands are taken with a person anywhere, anytime (unless of course.... well that dont matter.)

INFINOO
22nd December 2001, 05:36
Tim: Thanks for the reply. I thought ninjutsu Tai-jutsu came from the weapons usage and not the other way around , or is that what you said?
Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International

Jon S.
23rd December 2001, 16:45
I study traditional Jujutsu. We go about it from the opposite direction in that we try to view weapons as an extension of the body, so we strive to master empty hand techniques first, then develop our weapons skills. It seems more natural to use a weapon (with exceptions of course, depending on the weapon) after developing proficient empty-handed techniques.

Jon Small

INFINOO
24th December 2001, 01:07
Jon Small: Thanks for the reply. What style of tradional Jujutsu do you study? Do you learn defenses againts weapons before learning the weapons solo? Or is that aspect of traning left untill later.
Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International

Jon S.
24th December 2001, 07:13
Greg,

Shin Go Ju Ryu is the style of Jujutsu that I study.

From beginning levels students are taught the connection of atemi waza and weapons (though the connection to smaller hand weapons is emphasized more at this level, at more intermediate to advanced levels, after the student begins to understand how the whole body works to generate power, the connection to larger weapons is then perhaps easier to understand), as well as making use of weapons at hand (pens, pencils, chairs, dishes, car keys, sticks, rocks, dirt, etc.).

As students progress into intermediate stages they learn Go Shin Jutsu (like of Judo), and as they reach advanced levels they learn other double handed katas that involve armed attacks, and single handed weapon katas. The relationships to be made between throwing and joint locking techniques to weapons use are things that advanced students tend to discover on their own after they understand some of the connections between throwing and joint locking techniques, and striking techniques.

Jon Small

INFINOO
25th December 2001, 00:40
Charles, Thanks for taking the time to respond , sorry about not getting back to you sooner. You made a great point about mai. I would also agree with your statement about sword and jo concepts being interchangeable. I still practice the six kumi jo kata , I learned over ten years ago. good stuff.
John, It sounds like a really great system . Do you have time to practice any sword?

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International

Jon S.
27th December 2001, 00:24
Greg,

Thank you. Yes, I do feel fortunate to have the opportunity to learn where I do. Regretfully though our use of the sword is limited to Kime No Kata, a few miscellanious open hand defenses to sword attacks, and some basic cuts and concepts of sword use.

I suppose our philosophy is that Kenjutsu is a different matter that goes far in a direction that we have only a basic knowledge of. For what we do that's okay, but if a student wants to focus on the sword they should find a Kenjutsu teacher. My sensei's teacher taught Kenjutsu as well as Jujutsu, but my sensei devoted his efforts to Jujutsu. Personally, I'd like to learn more of the sword, at least a single handed kata (which we don't have any of) that I could practice and polish, but there always seems to be so many other techniques and katas in need of that sort of attention.

You really hit upon the key factor - time. With all that what we study encompasses, time for the sword is mimimal. As students become advanced they are exposed to what little knowledge of the sword that we have, but it is up to them to practice their sword skills on their own, at least so that they don't appear sloppy. Pretty much every serious student will do this without any encouragement anyway, and it shows when it comes time to working with techniques that involve attacks with the sword.

Jon Small