Views of Sanchin Kata

[Mark J Brelsfor]

Hello All,

I am just wondering and would like to hear how folks use and or view the kata sanchin.
My main point being that all to often, especially in Uechi schools it is something that seems to been done during class with little or no emphisis on really attempting to perform the kata.
The feeling I get is that folks feel it is something that should be done but lets get it out of the way so we can do more "fun" stuff during our class time....... sad but perhaps true.
Do folks do the classic 3 sanchins and move on or are more sanchins performed? Is proper and safe "checking" being performed? Do other Okinawan ryu-ha perform sanchin and what are the views and ideas on how to perform it and how many are performed per training session?

I look forward to the input......

Mark J Brelsford

[gojuka]

We typically open every class with Sanchin kata, and it's importance is expressed repeatedly. More advanced students will sometimes (esp if I am running the class!) start the class with Sanchin 2-3 times, and/or sometimes while holding dumbells, and/or sometimes doing partner training (shime). Sanchin is _the_ single most important exercise in the Goju-ryu (and other) system.

I have found that many schools are no longer practicing it because of it's 'health dangers'. These people are a) not doing goju-ryu (or whatever) and b) were doing sanchin incorrectly to come to the conclusion that it is bad for you.

How any times have you seen someone (esp in N America) doing Sanchin and looking like they are going to pop! ;-) These people learned Sanchin incorrectly to begin with, which may have lead to health problems and "therefore Sanchin in bad for you". Argh!

Sanchin is _the_ fundamental training exercise of Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu and (I believe) Isshin-ryu. If they are not doing Sanchin, then they are not doing Goju/Euchi/Isshin.

- Maku

[Mark J Brelsfor]

Very Good points

I could not agree with you more. I find many that have indeed learned or do not fully understand the "how to" do a proper sanchin.

Again, I could not agree with you more!

Mark

[CEB]

I had an incident last April where I found the need to remind someone that shime testing is way to help someone improve beyond what they could do alone and the it is not a macho thing or a form of punishment.

Also had an embarassing moment last week. I was teaching formal Sanchin kata and blanked out on how it is supposed to be done. Our workout area is a small gym and we just work sanchin up and down the floor we don't do the turn until the front row is getting close to the wall. Then at some point when everybody is facing forward we called for marote yon nukite then we finish the kata. I hate it when I do stuff like that.

Used to start every class with junbi undo (warm ups), kihons (basics) then Sanchin, then close each class with Tensho. Somewhere we got out of the habit of having a set class format, We don't do sanchin every class anymore. To much to work on and not enough time to do it all in. But, tonight we will do Sanchin and it will be good.


Ed Boyd

[Mark J Brelsfor]

Good points ED,


I found, over time, that as for "fitting" items into class I had to base it on the experience level of the class in general. Now I know many dojo's have a set routine if you will, even when I was on Okinawa Kanei Uechi never changed from a set standard for class.
As I got more advanced and trained with various Uechi teachers the "basics" if you will were put aside for one to do on his own. Perhaps not to hold others back from more advanced ideas in training. There was less group training and more one on one.
This I find especially holds true for the study of sanchin. To develope the essentials of power, speed and technique I feel sanchin is a must. With that said it must be properly presented with proper testing per each students level. All to often I see "teacher" doing poor if not dangerous sanchin testing.
One must bring the student to a level to enhance that persons ability. To push them to the edge if you will but ALWAYS on the side of safety for the person being tested. Let me know what ya think....

Mark

[Harry Cook]

I believe that the teaching of Sanchin kata is quite important on a number of levels, and as I teach both Shotokan and Okinawan Goju Ryu I find that the four principles of float, sink, swallow and spit derived from Fukien boxing systems and found in Sanchin are applicable to the kata from both traditions.
For more experienced students I feel that the quality of the performance is infinitely more important thatn the quantity. One useful tool which really makes Sanchin challenging (at least for me) is a pair of Sandow's spring grip dumb-bells which were made circa 1905. Holding them closed while performing Sanchin really works the grip, lats, shoulders etc. and makes you focus on your breathing and kime. I think that the Sandow spring grip dumb-bells are now quite rare, but if you are lucky enough to find a pair try performing Sanchin with them - you will find that three repetitions are enough.
Yours,
Harry Cook

[Mark J Brelsfor]

Hello Mr Cook,

I have never seen that type of weight. I have both stateside and overseas performed sanchin using a variety of weights. As you stated, it defenitly adds a new dimension to the performance.

Tell me have you seen Master Gushi's sanchin? What are your views on his performance?

I would be interested to hear more on you views of the four Fukien ideas.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Mark J Brelsford

[Harry Cook]

Dear Mr. Brelsfor,
I, and four of my students, had the great pleasure of training with Gushi sensei in August 2,000 at the Suiho-En Japanese garden in California, where he both taught and demonstrated Sanchin kata, as well as other Uechi Ryu techniques and methods. I had some previous experience of the Uechi Ryu Sanchin as I learned it from my good friend Dr. Dave Scott in the mid 1970s (Dave trained in Okinawa for a number of years in the 1970s, and was the British Uechi Ryu Chief Instructor for some time). I thought Gushi sensei was terrific on all levels, a karateka's karateka, and if I get a chance I will definitely train with him again, and I'll drag as many of my members as I can along with me.
About the four principles. I wrote an article on "Sanchin The Essential Kata of Naha-te" which was published in Dragon Times Volume 13, which discusses the four concepts. If you cannot get a copy please let me know and I'll see if I can get a copy of the text to you.
Yours,
Harry Cook

[Mark J Brelsfor]

Mr Cook,

Agreed! I think Sensei Gushi has much to offer!
I have known him for a number of years both stateside and when he lived in Okinawa. I last saw him about 2 yrs ago when he came up this way. It was good to see him again, although I have talked to him several times since. I really enjoyed the tapes that Tsunami production did on him and his methods of training especially the sanchin tape. A "MUST HAVE" for all serious practitioners!

I looked through my older Dragon times and sad to say I do not have your article......
I would be most interested in reading this, please let me know how I could obtain a copy of it!

Hope to Hear From you soon!

Mark J Brelsford

[kusanku]

There are two relaxed ways of doing sanchin that I am aware of, one I know and do and one I have read about.

The one I have read about is a method of doing kata called yawarakasa , taught on Okinawa by Toyama Seiko Sensei, of Uechi Ryu Zankai, and I have some details on the theory but no actual practice of it as it is best done from an instructor.

Master Toyama's chief instructor there is an American, Seizan(Gordi Breyette) Sensei, who has been allowed to put some information on this style on Van Canna's Forum at www.uechiryu.com

The other is a soft method taught me by my teacher in Okinawan Kenpo, which I believe is also Okinawan in origin, but I don't know from what styler it derives. It has been suggested that it may be the Moto-Te sanchi from Motobu-Ryu.

Its use is for energy flow, and for foundational self defense principles, and it is the only way I ever do sanchin these days.

The soft, slow circling leg and arm movements do contsain the seed of all karate.With virtually nothing else in the way.

Though, it must be said, so do other more involved kata. Sanchin done this way's, vitrue is simplicity.

The Uechi Ryu Zankai methods include more levels that the first, actually three levels are taught. For that information however, I will refer you to Uechi Ryu Zankai if you don't already know of it.

Pretty nice people they are.Toyana Sensei appears phenomenal.
He is the last teaching student of Kanbun Uechi.Also worked with Kanei and many others for years developing the 'new' style, Uechi Ryu.But the Zankai is dedicated to teaching Kanbun's original style.Toyama Sensei says it is not better than others, but it is different in some ways.He does not widsh to be any cause of controversy either.

What little I post here is for informational purposes only and if I have made any mistakes, they are mine and mine alone.

Any authoritative statements about Toyama Sensei or his style of Uechi-Ryu must come from either him, or his authorized representatives.The above reflects merely my own very slight understanding.

Regards,

[Harry Cook]

Dear Mr. Brelsfor,
you could contact David Chambers at Dragon Times to see if he has any back issues available. Also if you send me an e-mail with your address I will send you a copy of the article.
About Kusanku's comments on Toyama sensei. One of ther members of our association was in Okinawa in the summer training with Toyama sensei and Mr. Breyette. He was extremely impressed with both gentlemen and intends to go back as soon as he can to train some more. If time and money allow I might drag my poor old bones with him.
Yours,
Harry Cook

[Mark J Brelsfor]

Hello again,

Thanks for the replys.

I am aware of Mr.Breyette as well as Toyama sensei. But for the record Master Tomoyose was also a student of Kanbun and is still very much alive!

I find the the Zankai views interesting to say the least, and have in the past had some very good talks with Gordi.

Mr Cook I would be interested in seeing your article, my address is as follows:
mjbrelsford@home.com
Thanks in advance for the article!

I would enjoy hearing more views from kusanku about your views on sanchin, especially the method you talked about rather interesting.

Hope you all have a great day!!!

Mark J Brelsford

[Joe Paden]

Hello All,

I figure I would offer an Isshin-ryu perspective on Sanchin as taught to me
by my Sensei, AJ Advincula. He taught me Sanchin is a very important kata
for Isshin-ryu. The founder of Isshin-ryu, Tatsuo Shimabuku (1908-1975) said
that Shorin's Niahanchi was the mother, Goju's Sanchin was the father,
and Isshin was the baby.

Sanchin is the 8th and last empty hand kata taught. It is done in two ways,
with tension and with speed. Tension is the primary focus. This is done for
health and for the cultivation of Chinkuchi. Sanchin is prolonged Chinkuchi.

I noticed some comments on improper testing of Sanchin. The way Isshin
does it's checking is by testing the muscles that should be tight by lightly
touching with the finger tips and slowly building to heavier contact. The
stance is tested by using a cupped hand and making sure it cannot hit
the groin, with experienced practitioners kicks can be done. Does this sound
improper?

Shimabuku and Uechi were good friends. My Sensei showed a comparison of
Uechi's Sanchin and Isshin's (he likes to do this with all kata), there are some differences.
Uechi's Shoulders are low, Isshin's are back, Uechi's thumb position is different from Isshin's,
Uechi holds their thumbs on the inside of their hand and Isshin has their thumbs to the
side. Uechi uses all open hand and Isshin uses both closed and open. Uechi
goes in different directions and Isshin goes forward and back. I was also taught
Uechi's Sanchin is closer to the original (or the way it was done in China).
Mr. Brelsfor, I believe you wrote you are Uechi (correct?) do these comparisons
of Uechi sound like the way you do it?

Sensei also does Hindiandi Gung-fu, they teach a Sanchin, one hand open one closed,
all directions spontaneous. I cant go into this, I've wrote enough, but I cant help it
this is a really good topic.

Joey Paden
Maryland Isshin-kai

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Harry Cook
Dear Mr. Brelsfor,
you could contact David Chambers at Dragon Times to see if he has any back issues available. Also if you send me an e-mail with your address I will send you a copy of the article.
Harry Cook

YAMANTAKA : Dear Mr. Cook,

Could I take advantage of your good will and ask if you could send me also that article? My address is :
Ubaldo Alcantara
Rua das Esperas, 30 - Pituba
41810-090 - Salvador (BA)
BRAZIL.
And could you, please, allow me to translate your article and place it at my website
www.yahoogroups.com/group/aikido-lingua_portuguesa
(Aikido in Portuguese Language - Discussion List and Information Centre) ?
You may send it also as an attachment to a message.
Excuse my abuse :o
Best

[Mark J Brelsfor]

Hello again All,

Good comparison between the Uechi and Isshin Sanchin. Lots of good info to think about. Again, Mr Cook thanks for the article.

Good point on the checking of sanchin, Master Kanei Uechi did most of his checking in that manner.

Keep the ideas coming

Mark

[Wu Wei]

Very interesting discussion. One thing I've always found interesting is the different manners in which Kanei Uechi demonstrates Sanchin versus how Sieyu Shinjo demonstrates it. Kanei's Sanshin seems much more relaxed while Shinjo's is much harder. Has anyone noticed this?

[Mark J Brelsfor]

Wu Wei,

If you could let me know on what level are you comparing the 2 sanchins? Are you basing this on the videos that are out there or some other info, I just would like to know.
One must remember that most of the video that is seen is of Kanei Uechi when he was much older. And yes he did not to sanchin as he did when younger. I have talked with Kanei about the pace/speed of sanchin he explained the same that is shown in many videos of the Uechi sanchin as a whole, he often laughed about his age and said he was much stronger when he was younger! I find many points the same between Sieyu's and Kanei's. To me there is little if any differences of the basics, granted that there are different trains of thought between the two, however after much training with Master Nakahodo, a very senior student of the Shinjo dojo and my current teacher, I find more things that are alike then different.
I can for say for certain that based on my training with both trains of thought between the two there is little difference in what is done.
Let me know what ya think.....
Mark Brelsford

[Wu Wei]

The observation is only through video. I have a tape of Kanei Uechi - he looks pretty young, doing the three main katas of Uechi Ryu and they are all performed very fluidly. Tapes I have of Seiyu Shinjo show more hardness. I brought this up on a thread in the past and another individual mentioned that it was due to the two being trained differently from Kanban Uechi. From the little that I have seen of the two lineages, the Shinjo lineage does seem to emphasize hardness a bit more. It sounds like you may have an interesting vantage point by which to observe this. I look forward to your insights.

[kusanku]

Mr. Brelsfor wanted to know more about my views of the other sanchin I descibed, which one of my teachers taught to me.

Well, this is how it goes, I studied Okinawan Kenpo for twenty years from my Sensei, who was a senior student of two Okinawan Tenth Dans who were once in the same organization but later each started their own, and both of whom he trained extensively with, and I never asked which taught him this one, so I don't know where it's really from, but:

It uses a standard stance, but is done relaxed, with much emphasis on the patterns of movement, its all open hands, but it doesn't look like Uechi Ryu, more like a real relaxed version of the kata.

I also have heard of a shorin ryu sanchin that once existed, perhaps a tomari te from, but it may be lost.

Anyway, this one is simple enough, and can be done different ways, not as so muc fixed movements , but the sanchin sequences, to inculcate the principles of the stance, stepping, opening out, crossing arms, closing as you retract, and thrusting, returning to guard, and so on, turning, stepping either forward or back with the mawashi uke or wa uke technique, short or held in movements, but no tension whatever except as necessary to keep the form.

It may not be so much a kata as a series of drills based on one, and then linked together in different ways.

Anyway, it made a lot of sense to me this way, and the combat apps are clear enough from it, to wit, pass and check arm movements, where the intercept or block comes across and the other hand strikes from under, the sterps protect the inside legs and groin, and the simple counters repeat three times each, single punch or thrust, double slicing thrusts, and then the two circling round movements , which contain with the stepping, the seeds of all karate within them.The kicking techniques, low for real use, are inherent in the crescent steps, and the striking techniques from the semicircling hands, and the blocksd, locks, traps and takedowns are from the mawashi uke and the steps combined.

Now, I have also seen , but only in a book, the Ngo Cho Kuen Kung Fu sanchin, that actually has some open fighting techniques at the end, but that one has tension and also is very different from any Okinawan versions.

Thge sanchin is one of ten chien or battle, meaning here tnesion and resistance, forms in Ngo Cho Kuen, and the rest of their forms are ch'uan or boxing forms.Or so I understand.

Sanchin is an interesting form in its many variations,and the comment from the Isshinryu about naihanchi being the mother kata, for the shorin ryu styles it is, it goes side to side, so it looks different from sanchin, but with its weaving footwork and crossing arm movements, it teaches the same lessons as sanchin, though in any Okinawan style I know of, Naihanchi is a focussed but not a tension form.

However, in Shotokan I believe some moves in Naihanchi are done as tension moves, and I have seen some shorin people do this also in tournaments.

Basically, I think all sanchin kata, of whatever system, came from a common source, and are for the same or similar purposes. As to relaxed versions, I think there are two basic theories of how to achieve control of the body tensing and relaxing functions, one is to tense a, and one is to totally relax, each way gets you eventually to the same goal.Such the theory anyway.

It is of interest to note that many though not all White Crane systems use a form called san zhan or Three Steps as the base form,its a proto sanchin, and the other styles use a form called xi bo or seven stars which I have never seen that I know of.

That's about what I know on sanchin, the one I learned being kind of shown me as an Oh, By the Way, there is this too, not a style mandatory form..heknew I liked collecting kata from various styles.
Regards,

[Mark J Brelsfor]

To All.....

Very interesting points!

As for Wu Wei, Thank You for the input.... I am here to help as well as learn and hope to at the same to clear up some "mythes" of Okinawan Karate. I am aware of the tapes of Kanei you speak of. Just a thought...one must remember that as a younger adult Kanei was a scrapper! For the record, I have seen little difference between the two schools, and never heard they trained different manners.

Kusanku, lots of interesting points and thing to think about!
You bring up a good point..... do folks out there hava a "bunkai" for sanchin????

From my learning overseas and again this is what I have learned,
not being right or wrong, there is no tactical application for sanchin. Sanchin is viewed strictly as a developmental training drill, to develope power, speed and technique. I had heard this from many senior teachers in Okinawa and not just in Uechi.

I await your ideas and thoughts.........

Have a GREAT weekend!!

Mark

[Joseph Svinth]

For a sanchin bunkai, have someone who is much bigger and stronger than you bearhug you from behind. Have him grab both of his wrists, and tell him that he isn't to let go for anything. At this point, you take your three slow steps and then turn around briskly. If you've got your timing, posture, and breathing right, you almost casually turn right back into his grasp and lo! A pushing strike into the ribs.

The blow isn't a punch; while that will hurt him, it won't force him to let go. Instead, this is more like a piston; it drives in and the only way to make it stop is to get out of range. Since you are stepping in, he has to let go in order to escape.

The thing to keep in mind here is that the power starts at the opposite shoulder blade. That is, if you want to punch RIGHT, you start it by squeezing the LEFT shoulder blade. This puts your back into the piston motion, and so while it's slow, it's also about as strong as anything you've got.

The precise number of steps is necessary, too, as one barely affects his grip, two affects it only slightly, and it's the third one that gives you the space you need to do the bensoku turn. Meanwhile, the step after the pivot is required because if you don't do it, he can lean forward and outdistance your piston.

When pivoting, stay very upright and make sure you pivot on the heel of the lead foot rather than the toes. Otherwise your hips won't pull you around and of course he can stop anything you try with your shoulders.

BTW, if he lifts you off the ground, no problem -- simply hold the rigid sanchin stance, arms in double middle block. Keep breathing, nice and slow, and think heavy. If you doubt this, try it. Even the little folks will suddenly seem to weigh a couple hundred pounds, and somebody your own size will seem to weigh a ton.

[Mark Brelsford]

Interesting??????

Is this a method of some type of bunkai?? Based on ......????

Kinda don't get it, not to be rude but never heard of this info, sorry.

Please tell me about yourself and what this info is based on....
Again I am not trying to be rude just questioning your sources.

Than You in advance.....

Mark J Brelsford

[kusanku]

Hi Mark, going to try to answer your questions about bunkai for sanchin, but first, cool Joe.That reminds me of bunkai for the two steps in Rohai kata with fists at chamber that can be an armbar takedown but you need two steps, cross reference the judo kata using this as well, two steps, no doubt three for the technique as you describe.

Now, as for tactical appplications or bunkai for sanchin, from the one I described, there are,, its more of a basic principle type thing, true.

In the Ngo Cho Kuen sam chien, as described in the book I read, Tuttle , A.L. Co, the first sequences are the four principles of float, sink, swallow and spit, and then the last few techniques are described as having combat applications, and some of these are presented in the book.However, this sanchin is significantly different from Okinawan versions, which, to me at least, do seem to have combat applications if done at speed. Having said this,the primary purpose for most Okinawan sanchin do seem to be training the attributes and not the fighting techniques.

Yet, in Shorin ryu, the Naihanchi kata are said by some masters to be for hip and leg strength training primarily and not for combat techniques, while others see these as a never-ending fount of just such combat techniques.

I do believe the sanchin is the fount of such as well, witness the Chinese and Okinawan common expression, 'All is in sanchin.'

Really it is, too.As for bunkai, there are some Chinese preset bunkai for the saam chien as in the book quoted above, as for Uechi Ryu, no such thing exists as far as I know in any system, but it is said that there was a seisan bunkai brought back from China by Kanbun, and that there might also have been such for all the kata, is possible, they may however, not all have been shown.Chinese asrts tend to have two person versions of their forms, generally.Also up to five levels of what we would call, bunkai or analysis.

Joe is I believe IsshinRyu, that's right isn't it, and a great researcher of karate and other martial arts,I do know Isshinryu taught many bunkai to those who stayed longer.

Talked to several guys who studied on Okinawa, who said that they signed for two or more tours, and that as they wrere getting ready to return they were shown some of this type thing, Isshinryu and Shorinryu.

As for that one I was shown , it could have been from Motobu style, or somewhere else, my teacher went many places on Okinawa, many dojo.

Regards,

[Mark Brelsford]

Good Morining All!!

Kusanku..... Good info, based on what you have been taught.
I have seen the 5 Ancestor forms that you spoke of, interesting stuff, lots things do look very much alike, who's to say ... kinda like the chicken and the egg!!!!!

I feel its fine to "play" with certain applications, as long as it is understood what the meaning or "desired/designed path???" (for lack of a better word) is or intended to be.

oooppppsss ...... I guess that is the traditional side of me showing!!!

Keep the info coming.

Have a great day!!

Mark J Brelsford

[Joseph Svinth]

John -- close but no seegar. I'm currently affiliated Kyokushin Kai, but my kata are Goju Kai. That said, my interpretations of sanchin have been influenced by the Izumikawa-style Goju Ryu of Tomu Arakawa, and (assuming I remember them correctly!) the stances and heel placement described above are those of Mr. Arakawa. Meanwhile, the idea of having someone grip is based on Morio Higaonna's statement that you should visualize sanchin kata as if moving through mud. Why imagine when you can create?

As for the ending of the kata, I am rather taken by the cognate Northern Chinese methods described in a pleasant little book by Y. P. Dong called Still as a Mountain, Powerful as Thunder (Boston: Shambhala, 1993). Specifically, check out the section he calls "Letting Heaven and Earth Sink and Float." This is the name Dong gives to the pattern used during the last third of both sanchin and tensho kata. The stance is sanchin dachi, with the right foot forward, the elbows near the ribs, and the hands palm up in a double middle block. For illustrations of sanchin, see Morio Higaonna's Traditional Karatedo, volume 1, 164-165, while for illustrations of tensho, see Higaonna's Traditional Karatedo, volume 3, 115.

Start by putting some muscular tension into your inner thighs and insteps: Grip the floor with your big toe.

Next, respirate a few times through your nose. Don't try too hard to match your breathing to any particular movements, as that comes with practice, not conscious thought. (With practice you should be able to slow your breathing to four or five breaths per minute without any strain. But for now, keep your breathing normal, which means one breath every six to ten seconds.)

Then:

• Extend your arms in front of you at shoulder height.
• Push both hands toward your waist as if you were trying to push an inflated beach ball under water.
• After your hands are waist high, turn your hands over and use them to scoop the air.

While doing this, the traditional visualization is to see yourself trying to lift the heavens. However, I prefer to see myself scooping up all the love I can hold.

As for the breathing itself, Higaonna says that you inhale during the downward movement and exhale during the upward movement. On the other hand, Dong says that it doesn't matter which way is which, so long as you exhale when you move in one direction and inhale as you move in the other. Either way, if you want to make the breathing sound traditional, you open your lips just a little while keeping your tongue pressed against the roof of your mouth. While the practice isn't really necessary for breathing, it does teach a technique that helps you resist choke-holds while simultaneously keeping your mouth from drying out.

"Two Hands Grasp Emptiness Followed by Silkworms Spinning Silk" is the name Dong gave to another series of hand movements used in sanchin kata. The movements are shown in Higaonna's Traditional Karatedo, volume I, 163-164. While doing the exercise, try to match your breathing to your movements if you can. Higaonna says to inhale gently through your nose and exhale forcefully through your mouth using that little "hatt" sound. On the other hand, Dong encourages you to always use your nose. So my advice is to try both ways, and see which you prefer. After all, unless you're into the Japanese ideal of monkey-see, monkey-do or in a hurry to get promoted, then the idea is to practice breathing, not to get into arguments about "correctness."

Again, stand in sanchin dachi, right foot forward. Relax your abdomen while putting some muscular tension into your insteps and inner thighs. Then:

• Extend both arms, palms down and nipple high, as if you were reaching around a giant tree trunk. For visualization purposes, imagine yourself a child, and you are trying to hug your favorite teddy bear.
• Now make your hands into light fists. Start by closing your little fingers and working your way in one finger at a time. While doing this closure, try to keep the next finger from starting its curl until the preceding finger has retracted completely. As with the Vulcan greeting used by Mr. Spock on Star Trek, most people find that this requires some practice.
• When you are finished making your fists, slowly retract your hands into the chamber position. This retraction must be smooth and circular rather than jerky and linear. For imagery, see yourself pulling cotton candy or taffy from behind whatever it was that you just hugged.
• Once retracted into the chamber, open your fists and turn them into spear-hands. Be sure to keep your fingers together in your spear hand. Also cup your palms. While the Japanese and the Okinawans keep their thumbs next to the joint of the index finger, the Chinese put their thumbs against the tips of their index fingers. Again, try both ways and see which you prefer.
• Now push those spear-hands forward while simultaneously exhaling gently through your nose. Use your latissimus dorsi and back muscles for power rather than your deltoids and trapezius muscles. (This is that squeezing of the shoulder blades I mentioned earlier. You get similar lectures from the aikijujutsu people, I find.)
• Repeat as desired.

[Wu Wei]

I haven't read that book but did a search on it and found it on Amazon.com. It looks like it is a Taoist exercise book. Interesting - I have never heard a connection made between Sanchin and Tensho and Taoist exercises.

Mr. Svinth - when you make the observation,

Specifically, check out the section he calls "Letting Heaven and Earth Sink and Float." This is the name Dong gives to the pattern used during the last third of both sanchin and tensho kata.

Is this simply your personal comparison or does the author elude to those katas in the book?

[Joe Paden]

Hello All,
Have we found the never ending topic? Some are giving their application/bunkai for Sanchin.
I will give Isshin's bunkai. While the main purpose of Sanchin is for excercise and to develop
chinkuchi, Sanchin can be practiced for combat.

Isshin's Sanchin does 5 reverse punches with simultaneous blocks (3 with steps), 5 open hand
double nukite, grab flesh, clothes, whatever and pull down (no steps), 2 open hand blocks with
palm heel strikes (step back on each), step back left, rei out.

All of the techniques have been taught to the Isshin student in prior kata. Punches are taught
in Seisan kata, the nukite are taught in Sunsu kata, and the same with the block and palm heel
are taught in Sunsu, but in Sunsu they are done in with closed fists.

So why is it taught? For excercise and the cultivation of chinkuchi. Chinkuchi is the cultivation of
energy (ki) through proper body mechanics. This is done with the tightness and the breathing in
San-chin. Isshin-ryu's founder Tatsuo Shimabuku said that Sanchin should not be taught until
last because it will slow you down if done sooner.

Does anyone refer/use chinkuchi in their training?

Joey Paden
Maryland Isshinkai

[kusanku]

Hi, Joe(Svinth) sorry about the misattribution of style, don't know where I got that idea.

That was a book of information, hadn't heard of the Y.P/ Dong book, interesting stuff.That was really thorough and detailed as well.Thanks, I enjoyed reading that.

Joe Paden, thanks for the save with the Isshinryu bunkai, I knew it existed, and had not heard the reason it was taught last, but that is interesting.

More information, for Mark? Well, let me see.

Sanchin is as any kata, according to what my teachers told and showed me, basically, any actual classical kata, menaing a form created for actual usage, has applications for seldf defense.

But its somewhat similar to a viewpoint held in Taiji and enunciated in its classics, that each move has potential power to stop an atttacker, and each tenth of each move can be so developed, and each tenth part of each tenth, can be similarly developed, and each tenth of each tenth of each tenth part, and so forth and so on, can all have meaning.

Its about refinement, such that a small movement can upset an attacker, reverse or even defeat his attack, if infused with sufficient power, precision and purpose. This is a pretty old idea in martial arts, sometimes represented by demonstrations where some very proficient person will have someone hold onto them and with a simple body move, throw them off or where a small move will strike the person and send them to the floor.

What is really going on is mostly cconcealed, looks like magic but is not at all, rather applied body dynamics or mechanics, as you prefer.

It seems that sanchin kata, in its variations, has many subtleties which could be refined and thus exploited, but so can many another.

Yet, in its simplicity, that is to say,its lack of anything extraneous to its fundamentsal purpose of devceloping foundational attributes, it stands as one of the finest examples of training forms.

Regards,

[kusanku]

For Joe Paden:

As to Chinkuchi, the only placve I ever heard it used as such, is Isshinryu, but may have comparable things in Chinese forms, ie Ch'i, jing and shen.(Energy, essence and spirit.)

Regards

[Mark Brelsford]

Hello,

I think some good info Joe, great input.

I found though that as for many Okinawan instructors they do not get wrapped up in the "this is this and that is called that"...
as far as terminology goes. We just kinda did it on Okinawa. I find, especially in the states, instructor love to put names and terms on concepts to ...it seems... make them more interesting, kinda weird to me!!!
Like I said we kinda never worried or talked about terms in Okinawa to the extent that it is done in the states.

As for doing sanchin in a later stage of training, I found that for Uechi anyway, it is the bases for what is taught later. I do agree that if taught wrong it can be trouble...this I see all to often in many schools stateside. I find that many instructors have trouble even doing the basic thrust, and look outside the style for such things as hip movements to compensate for lack of basic knowledge...sad, and this is from "seniors" go figure.

But this kinda brings up another point to think about..... all to often I view instructor doing this or that wrong and then teaching wrong. I say ya can not blame them, but rather there teacher as to blame as they never learned it corectly. This goes back to folks enjoying naming this or that to make it sound better. But what is even more sad then this cycle being continued is the fact that bottom-line wise, the plan old fact of " ya cannot teach old dogs new tricks".... folks are afraid to admit they are wrong or have learned wrong. I see this not only in sanchin but in kata in general. I say if you have a poor base that you start to build from (Sanchin) then all else will be effected by that throughout ones training. But also the opposite is also true.... strong foundation, then everything else just kinda falls into place!

Think about it!

Mark J Brelsford :redhot:

[Joseph Svinth]

No, Dong does not refer to any Japanese styles, he's simply showing some elementary movements from his own system. But if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck, then what the heck.

For Bill Reuter, sanchin was a breathing exercise. Period. Other than that, it was simply one and two and step and turn. Mr. Arakawa, on the other hand, would walk around trying to off-balance you. Sometimes he'd push hard; other times he'd pull ever so lightly. One time he would reap osotogari, another time he'd stop an apparently full-power strike to the stomach a quarter inch away. Almost aikido -- he'd see where the balance wasn't, and go there. For his part, Teruo Chinen walked around slapping you on the shoulders, whacking you in the back or stomach, or kicking to the inside of the legs. It was solid contact, but nothing like in Kyokushin Kai, where people seemed to think that sanchin was practice in being a human makiwara.

For what it's worth, Kanryo Higashionna reportedly had a trick where he invited people at festivals and sumo matches to grab hold of him, and then try to pull him out of position. Evidently he was pretty good at holding his place, too. And even today, sanchin can do fairly well at open tournaments, provided the person doing it has the upper body physique suitable for public display without a shirt. At one tournament I recall, a female bodybuilder took her jacket off for sanchin, just like the guys. She was wearing a halter top so that you could see the muscular definition, and the kata definitely drew the crowd. Got second, too, as I recall.

[Joe Paden]

Mr. Blesford,
I'm sorry you havent heard of chinkuchi. It is very real-or it is as taught to me. My
Sensei studied on Okinawa between 58-63, 65, 69-71, 75 and takes trips two to three
times a year to study martial arts and its culture. He studies with Isshin-ryu Seniors,
Shorin, Goju, Uechi, Hindiandi, and Ryu Kon Kai kobudo and others.

I really dont think he made up the term chinkuchi, he knows why almost every move was
included and when it was incorporated into Isshin.

I hope I misinterpreted your post.:confused:

Joey Paden
Maryland Isshinkai

[CEB]

Originally posted by Mark J Brelsfor


From my learning overseas and again this is what I have learned,
not being right or wrong, there is no tactical application for sanchin. Sanchin is viewed strictly as a developmental training drill, to develope power, speed and technique. I had heard this from many senior teachers in Okinawa and not just in Uechi.



There are tactical applications for all the movements in kata Sanchin but since all the techniques of kata Sanchin are repeated in our kaishu kata there is no need to emphasize them when teaching Sanchin. I believe this way we can dedicate Sanchin strictly for the purpose of foundation building. No need to worry about the WHY. Just focus on the WHAT. Correct feet, correct posture and weight distribution, correct breath and muscle coordination ect.... The WHY does not matter if you can't do the WHAT correctly. ( The above represents my personal views and are no way meant to be representative of any formal ryuha and probably didn't make sense anyway because of my poor wording.)

I'm curious about Uechi Ryu. In Goju Ryu Sanseiru, Shisochin, Seisan, Suparunpei, and in some cases Tensho start with 3 sanchin strikes. I guess Uechi Ryu practices Seisan and Sanseiru. Does Uech Ryu versions of these forms also start with 3 Sanchin strikes? Just curious.

Good topic. Happy holidays and take care.

Ed Boyd

[Mark Brelsford]

Hello,

Ed...

Seisan has the three strikes in the opening sequence, not sansei ryu. Ed where or from who did you learn that sanchin has tactical aps....just wondering.

Joe...

I do not believe I said I never heard that term, I believe. I just find it interesting how many folks stateside find these terms, romantic. Further I never said I never met your teacher either.

Again, I base my knowledge on thing I have seen and folks I have talked to overseas. These are my views and what was explained to me in talks with some fairly senior folks in Okinawa.

Just a thought.....

Mark J Brelsford

[CEB]

Originally posted by Mark Brelsford


Ed where or from who did you learn that sanchin has tactical aps....just wondering.



From my seniors. If you are looking for a direct line of tranmission from the far east, I don't know what to tell you. Our dojo has been around since the 60's. Dojo was Yamaguchi Goju Kai. Somewhere in the 70's we became a group of Goju Kai refugees. Early 80's became affiliated with Goju Ryu Karate Do Kyokai under Yamakura Motoo however the nucelus of the GKK were originally from the Izumikawa Kanki line so I there may be some influence from that branch of the tree. Few years ago dojo started doing Jundokan Goju Ryu. The head instructor of our dojo became inactive and the most senior student decided we should drop our GKK affiliation. Out of loyalty to Mr. Yamakura I remain in GKK but still train with the dojo so I have to be up on the Okinawan versions of the kata.

Probably not the explanation you expected but one that I expect is pretty common in the states. Since its inception Karate has been a very eclectic art.

As far as me personally, I don't go back that far. Only been doing karate since Tuesday. :)

Been shown apps from three seperate sources and they were amazingly the same. I teach these techniques but not as Sanchin apps per my previous post.

Take Care and have a good holiday season.

Ed Boyd
Springfield IL

[Mark Brelsford]

Ed,

Interesting background, to say the least.

Like I mentioned in my previous post....
This seems to be comman, as you said stateside. No wonder there is such confussion in certain areas.

Since its inception Karate has been a very eclectic art.
As far as me personally, I don't go back that far. Only been doing karate since Tuesday.

Not to be rude, but it seems so..... in your area do people actually pay money and do they understand what they are getting? I need to move to your area!!!!

Interesting.....

Mark J Brelsford

[Daniel Kogan]

Mr. Svinth mentioned that "Higaonna says that you inhale during the downward movement and exhale during the upward movement" is this truely what Morio-sensei teaches. I'm sorry to put people on the spot, but is this accurate? I guess my question is "can someone point me to a source, video or written where Morio-sensei says this, or is this what somebody thaught they heard or understood from speaking to him?" Sorry to be so frank, no dis-respect intended.

Some one else asked about "chinkuchi" although it is true that in North america the only schools I've ever heard use this word in thier daily training are the Isshin-ryu people, particularly Advincula sensei's group. This is not to say that on Okinawa it not used. Although it is rare, and typically used by older "hogen" speaking teachers.

My sensei uses the word "chinkuchi" when refering to the natural "locked" body katachi or postures. It is the point at which an externed arm, stance, etc...is in the position where one attains the most strength or power with the least effort. For example tsuki chinkuki is -horizontal to the ground, shoulder blade pushed back, lats locked down and shoulders rolled forward. this is not to say there aren't other ways to execute a tsuki, but that this position in neither more easily pulled nor pushed, raised nor lowered. This is the best "return on investment" as it were for this technique. This is one of the keys to sanchin, it teaches posture, body locking with minimal effort, and still being mobile.

As for Mr. Belsfor's comment about the lack of naming techniques in Okinawan dojo, I would have to agree. My sensei usually say "do the techinique as in such and such kata". Rarely using a Japanese name for a technique. And often having various names for a techinique. Since he is speaking in his native language he doesn't worry about naming things, rather he desdcribes then. I think an example might server best. In English a student would understand if you said, forward leaning stance, front stance, long stance, etc... But for some reason ( I suspect the reason is most people don't speak Japanese and can only remember a limitted amount of Japanese vocabulary) will always say "Zenkutsu-dachi". I think this is normal in any dojo on Okinawa or overseas, except those in Japan. The Japanese like to structure and classify all things. It is no wonder they label each karate technique when you consider that they have adobted "naisu-shoto" as an official term in TV golf broadcasting, it is "nice shot" and is official "golf vocabulary", that should put things in context as far a how the Japanese laberl things versus the Okinawans tend to describe them.

Well I rant and find myself far off topic hope this helps a little.

Daniel Kogan
Shinjinbukan

[Mark Brelsford]

Dan,

Excellant points............. well said.

A bit of trivia, it ws only until the mid 70's that many of the techniques used in Uechi got there names........

Mark J Brelsford

[CEB]

Originally posted by Mark Brelsford
Ed,

Interesting background, to say the least.


Not to be rude, but it seems so..... in your area do people actually pay money and do they understand what they are getting? I need to move to your area!!!!

Interesting.....

Mark J Brelsford

Not to rude my butt. You come off as being very rude and I am sorry I got involved I this conversation.

I didn't say what Tuesday I began karate. It was a Tuesday in July of 1974. And I have trained under some of the finest teachers in North America. Just trying for some light hearted humor, guess it doesn't come across well. Sorry. I won't take up anymore of your time.

[Joe Paden]

Mr. Blesford,
You wrote:

<<Joe...

I do not believe I said I never heard that term, I believe. I just find it interesting how many
folks stateside find these terms, romantic. Further I never said I never met your teacher either.>>

Have you met my Sensei?

Joe Paden

[Mark Brelsford]

Joe Pedan,

I have met him on one of his visits to Okinawa.... I believe it was in the mid 80's or so.

CEB,

Thank you for your input

M J Brelsford

[Wu Wei]

I have always trained both areas within Sanchin - including the application. It's been taught to me that is a distilled version of every other movement in the other katas hence the line "Everything is in Sanchin." Especially with the Uechi version being more distinct in the multidirectional nature of the Wa-uke block, it covers each direction and/or movement the hand and arms can cover while the crescent stepping and Sanchin turns have all the low kicks implicit within them.

[Victor]

Just some thoughts on 'Chinkuchi'.

It is not a commonly used term even in Isshinryu, but one of my instructors, in 1971, training in Okinawa was taught it and the underlying training by Isshinryu's founders son.

I believe the description given by Mr. Kogan is essentially correct.
Isshinryu is not alone in this tems use. If you refer to volume 1 on Goju Ryu Karate Kata by Hiagonna, he also defines the term 'Chinkuchi'. Making its inclusion within Isshinryu very likely from Shimabuku Tatsuo's training under Miyagi.

IMO, the use of terms alone gives you little. You don't get 'Chinkuchi', you are trained in a personal manner by someone who refers to a large group of simultaneous activities you're engagin in as developing your 'Chinkuchi'.

Terms always cause 'trouble' for those who haven't undergone the same training you have. For example I'm sure many good Goju instructors are teaching the same personal Sanchin development whether they use the term or not, and actually not using terms is an older Okinawa tradition (as many such as Dan Smith of Seibukan) have reported repeatedly.

But terms can be useful training beginnners. You may tell someone to put their 'hips' into a punch, where at a higher level of understanding you may refer to their 'Torso movement' and at still a higher level of understanding you realize it is actually an entire body symphony needed to actually describe what goes into a good punch.

In a similar manner you may train someone to punch only by placing their punch in a specific spot on a partners body. That is actually more accurate than telling them to punch to the 'Solar Plexus' and letting them flail somewhere in the air.

Then try going to a Doctor (MD's) office and gasping as you tell them you were nailed in the Solar Plexus. Understanding common usage of terms they would know what you beilve you're describinb, on the other hand if they were Dr. Harper MD, FACS whose in my classes he's likely to pull out "Gray's Anatomy" and demand you prove it...... and you CAN'T for there is no anatomical structure called the Solar Plexus in it.

Gray's is a very complex, detailed work looking at the actual physical mechanisms of the body, and I guess they were asleep the day they printed it because they didn't find the Solar Plexus as a real physical mechanism.

So words are useful, or not, depending how you use them.

Sort of like Sanchin Kata. Personally I do tons of application of Sanchin Kata technique, have done so for decades, and teach them to my students.

Who taught them to me, nobody, just like when I studied nobody taught any applications. It simply seemed to me that Sanchin contains karate technique and I can apply any karate technique, or should be able to.

I didn't have anybody telling me thay you can't 'bunkai' Sanchin so I did, do and will continue to do, a Do-Do I guess.

OOOOOOps, I guess I created a faux pas....sorry.

It's just I find the applications of Sanchin as useful as the applications of Seisan, etc. So much so I don't care whether others belive I should do so or not.....

But then again, I believe Chinkuchi exists, as my instructor taught me too.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi

[kusanku]

As I said, I have heard the term chinkuchi used in Isshinryu, and if it also is in Goju, half of Isshin is Goju, not surprising.

Also, as to tactical applications being in sanchin, two arguments should suffice, one is the essential or higher, the other the substantial or lower and specific.

First, the essential: sanchin contains an opening and closing movement that has been taught as combat effective from many katas,it contains a stance that has combat applications, steps that likewise do, and blocks, punches, thrusts and slices, and finally a wa uke or toraguchi or mawashi uke that contains within it all potential hand movements,and it thus is its own greaterst proof for having applications. The fact that many have also mentioned that these moves from other kata have applications, is recognition of this:sanchin, ipso facto, has combat applications.

Next, the substantial and speicific argument:In China,where sanchin comes from and still exists, it is said, 'All is in sanchin(or saam chien, or san zhan).I first heard that from Uechi Ryiu exponent George Mattson's book 'The Way Of Karate', he heard it from Kanei Uechi and Ryuko Tomoyose who heard it from Kanbun Uechi who said he ehard it in China.

Thus it is stated as axiomatic that all of karate is contained in seed form in the kata sanchin.

But we have even more than this:We have the Tai Chi Clasics. Now, I am not the first or only person to compare Uechi Ryu, sanchin and tai chi.Georger Mattson did this in his Master Text of Uechi Ryu, and some others, Robert Campbell and also John Thurston to name two, have done so. Its a contrast, as Taichi teaches relaxation to control tension, and Uechi does the opposite. Yet when it comes to combat aps, the two styles agree.

This is because the Tai Chi classics detail all possible applications of all possibble movements in general terms.Thus every step can be a kick, a sweep, a trip, a hook or other leg maneuver, especially the cresent stepping of sanchin. By definition , a circle or arc of a circle potentially contains all degrees of movement.Levels and heights can change to meet circumstances.

The circle blocks and thrusts, the two handed movements and the wa uke, as well as the open and close,all have similar multilayered purposes. This purely from applicational standpoints.

Were applications taught on Okinawa in any style? Yes.But not to everyone.And not necessarily the same ones, the same way, even from the same teacher.

Are they taught there now? I do not know.

Are they taught in China?Yes. Books, videos and teachers do teach these there and here.Is this a bandwagon thing? Not fully, many Chinese texts explaining basic to advanced applications of forms do exist.Some are from early 1900's to mid 1930's, some earlier and some later.Its not something new.,Again, we have Tai Chi master Yang Ch'eng Fu and his students to thank for much of this, also others.

The Bubishi shows that karate apps from kungfu were known and taught in Okinawa, but not to all.

How much was taught in Uechi Ryu? You would have to ask Toyama Seiko Sensei, Ryuyu Tomoyose Sensei, and others, many whom are passed on, to know this for sure.I do not know. I believe that it may be that the combat applications of sanchin in Uechi Ryu are to be found, as some have written, in seisan,and sanseiryu katas.

That is one way of looking at it.But that the kata does not have any combat applications, is a ridiculous proposition, no offense meant.

Regards to all,

[Joseph Svinth]

Daniel --

Sanchin is shown on the videos called Okinawa Goju Ryu Karate-do by Morio Higaonna (Brisbane, CA: JP Trading, 1985) and Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate by Kuniyuki Kai (San Clemente, CA: Panther Productions, 1982). The breathing techniques are described in the first two volumes of Traditional Karatedo: Okinawa Goju Ryu by Morio Higaonna (Tokyo: Minato Research/Japan Publications, 4 volumes, 1985-1990). See also Okinawan Goju-Ryu: The Fundamentals of Shorei-Kan Karate by Seikichi Toguchi (Burbank, CA: Ohara Publications, 1976).

Higaonna's fifth book does a pretty good job of documenting the stylistic roots of Goju. You can get that through Dragon/Tsunami.

Ed --

Yamakura's book, Goju-Ryu Karate-Do (Lambertville, MI: Goju-Ryu Karate-do Kyokai, 1989), is good. I haven't seen his videos; are they as good? (For those of you interested in buying copies, visit Yamakura's site, http://www.goju.com . I have never been a member of his organization, so this is an unsolicited plug. Warning: This Yamakura's style is Goju Kai [e.g., Japanese] rather than Goju Ryu [e.g., Okinawan], and as a result his stances are higher and narrower than Okinawan Goju Ryu stylists will be used to. If you fight from cat rather than sanchin, and don't allow much belly-bumping, tripping, or grabbing during randori, then the reason for these higher stances becomes obvious. However, such explanation implies bunkai in elementary kata. [It is basic pedagogical theory that introductory methods serve as a fundamental for more advanced techniques.] But Mark has already established that elementary kata are nothing more than one and two and step and turn. Therefore the real reason for the differences between Japanese and Okinawan Goju shall probably always remain a mystery.)

On an unrelated topic, I'd guess that your local split from Goju Kai happened sometime around 1975-76. Am I right? If so, and you're interested, drop me a line and I'll tell you my theory on why Gosei quit having much influence on North American Goju after 1974. (I can't prove it; it's just a hunch. Thus my saying write me offline.)

John --

"Kata makes the hours go by and the money come in." The gentleman who spoke those immortal words is due to visit Seattle in March, so if you're in the neighborhood, well, drop on by. :)

[kusanku]

Joe. Thanks for the invite, love to drop by,right now its uncertain but if I can I will.
John

[CEB]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Daniel --



Ed --

Yamakura's book, Goju-Ryu Karate-Do (Lambertville, MI: Goju-Ryu Karate-do Kyokai, 1989), is good. I haven't seen his videos; are they as good? (For those of you interested in buying copies, visit Yamakura's site, http://www.goju.com . I have never been a member of his organization, so this is an unsolicited plug. Warning: This Yamakura's style is Goju Kai [e.g., Japanese] rather than Goju Ryu [e.g., Okinawan], and as a result his stances are higher and narrower than Okinawan Goju Ryu stylists will be used to. If you fight from cat rather than sanchin, and don't allow much belly-bumping, tripping, or grabbing during randori, then the reason for these higher stances becomes obvious. However, such explanation implies bunkai in elementary kata. [It is basic pedagogical theory that introductory methods serve as a fundamental for more advanced techniques.] But Mark has already established that elementary kata are nothing more than one and two and step and turn. Therefore the real reason for the differences between Japanese and Okinawan Goju shall probably always remain a mystery.)

On an unrelated topic, I'd guess that your local split from Goju Kai happened sometime around 1975-76. Am I right? If so, and you're interested, drop me a line and I'll tell you my theory on why Gosei quit having much influence on North American Goju after 1974. (I can't prove it; it's just a hunch. Thus my saying write me offline.)




Hi Joe,

If you liked Mr. Yamakura's first book you will probably like his second book. Same format, covers kata not in vol I. I can't comment on the video tapes. I have not seen them. I will try to pick them up in the spring when I go to Toledo for training and our annual meeting. If you want I can scan and e-mail you the corrections for Mr. Yamakura's book. Mostly if not all are just errors made by the printer and some pictures got switched around ( I believe it was is in the section on kata Saifa )

You are correct on the time frame on our Goju Kai. I would be interested in what you have to say I'll drop you a line. It may be Sunday before I get around to it, I'm getting ready to leave town right now. Catch you later, Take care.

Ed Boyd

[arnie]

Hi all,
in the beginning of this thread there was some discussion on the potential harm of doing the kata inproperly.
I don't do the kata at all, I'm just curious, could somebody please elaborate!?
Does this have something to do with breathing, or is it the testing or what?
Please give me a clue!
That is, if you don't think someone who doesn't do the kata doesn't need any clues either :-)
Thanks in advance,
Ari Lappinen

[John Bowden]

Originally posted by arnie
Hi all,
in the beginning of this thread there was some discussion on the potential harm of doing the kata inproperly.
I don't do the kata at all, I'm just curious, could somebody please elaborate!?
Does this have something to do with breathing, or is it the testing or what?
Please give me a clue!
That is, if you don't think someone who doesn't do the kata doesn't need any clues either :-)
Thanks in advance,
Ari Lappinen

It is held by many that certain types of Sanchin practice can lead to physical ailments such as high blood pressure, heart disease and hemorroids.

I think that certain ryuha's Sanchin are perceived more in this light than other's.

John

[arnie]

John,
thank you for the reply, it came quickly and was easy to understand!
From what you wrote "high blood pressure, heart disease and hemorroids" I gather that it has very much indeed to do with breathing.
Breathing with tension against resistance could, if done improperly, direct the pressure "the wrong way", something like that?
My curiosity for this matter comes as much from being a physiotherapist, as being a (very "junior") martial artist, this is why I'm interested although I don't even practice that particular kata.
Thanks again,
Ari Lappinen

[Hank Irwin]

Some real good info here guys and gals. Sanchin is very first kata I teach my students, Ueichi Sanchin that is. My Sensei studied under Kanei Ueichi in Okinawa in the 60's. The first taste they get of Sanchin is in jubi-undo. From sanchin dachi, just pull in hands to seiken, then push out and down open handed fingertips up, repeat. Constant tension is made from tanden down to floor. Sensei walks around class testing each students physical condition with either push, punch, kick. Sometimes with a jo or Bo. After about a year of training students will learn kata, depending on student. Physical capabilities are always a subject of concern. You cannot teach someone of ill health Sanchin, it's dangerous. The Sanchin I teach is exactely how it was done by Kanei Ueichi. I have seen video of him doing Sanchin and it looks exactely the same as I was taught. The "testing" that is done is by way of striking certain body parts. Solar plex, the arms, legs, pushing and such. If you are in the proper sanchin dachi, you can't be kicked in the groin from underneath from the back, when you rotate your hips down the vitals pull up. :eek:
There are definate problems with sanchin practice though. But I think that is mostly by way of improper instruction. The first thing that most people have a problem with is not putting the concentration in the head, holding the breathe and such. I seen students that looked like they were gonna pop! from the strain. This kind of thing has to be immediately corrected or the student will experience all sorts of discomfort. Lamaz(not sure if I spelled that correctly) birthing lessons teaches methods that are very close in nature. Squeezing the sphinkter(hmm), breathing from the navel, tension of the inner thighs, breathing is much different though to a point. To do sanchin while giving birth, Whoa!
I think Sanchin is a difficult kata to master. It took me 10 years to get close, and have been doing it for 30 years. From an advanced level we can see a trunk load of application but for the novice a lot of pain.
:D I learned 2 other Sanchin kata, 1 from my Sensei( I believe he learned this kata from Kyoshi Ron Lindsey), which is called Shorinji Sanchin from Five Elders system and Old Shuri Sanchin which I learned from Sensei Chuck Chandler. All 3 are very good and stress no stress to the body if done properly. Just my 2 cents, more like 2 bits, sorry to ramble like this. Hope everyone had a great New Year! Heiwa!