toronto skinheads

[Sochin]

This is from http://www.torontoskinheads.com/Literature/1000/101300.html


Lets now talk about the essence of a skinhead; tenacity and violence. How many of you reading this have been in a fight in the last five years? How many have ever been in a fight outside of high school. You need to ask yourself these questions, and ask yourself if you really have what it takes to call yourself a skinhead. As a skinhead, you should not take shit from anyone. I do not care if there are multiple people, you simply do not take shit from them. So what if you get your ass kicked? So what if you get killed? If you have the aggressive spirit I, and numerous others have, neither of the above will happen to you. How violent are you? How much do you believe in our cause? If some asshole at the grocery store makes a comment such as "Seek Help", do you immediately beat him to the ground? Do you have the animal inside you? Can you do anything it takes?

My favorite targets are the knee, throat, and eyes.

1. Kick the knee and shins, when you are wearing steel toes as you should...

2. Chop at the throat, or squeeze if wrestling. A hard chop will kill. You can also hit the back of the neck, but unless you are really strong you will not kill.

3. The eyes. It takes the inner animal to tear out eyes.

For some reason I never thought that if I was in a 'brawl' with some yahoo that he would think, act and train in this way...he'd either be aregular guy, all brawl, no skill or training, or a martial arts type, ie predictable. My own naivety is gonna get me killed!

My question after two years training cqc concepts and mind set:
How would you handle the skinhead coming up off the bus bench fixed on you, knowing he was aiming a shin kick with steel-toed boots and following with other h2h practices?

Ending the fight before he knows he's in it is obviously out. Hitting him somehow just as he thinks he is about to hit you would be good but your timing better be on, no room for error.

[Kit LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Sochin


For some reason I never thought that if I was in a 'brawl' with some yahoo that he would think, act and train in this way...he'd either be aregular guy, all brawl, no skill or training, or a martial arts type, ie predictable. My own naivety is gonna get me killed!



Don't worry, Ted, this simply means you have been awakened.

Several people have been preaching this at CQC for some time. You never know what you can expect. Most streetfights that middle class martial artists will come to get involved in probably will be "brawls with regular guys. " From reading a lot of CQC posts over the past few years it seems a lot of folks without a whole lot of out-of-dojo experience are basing their imagined outcome of such situations on dealing with this type.

But it is not only the raging skinhead that will try tactics like noted above, or have a mindset like this....there are a lot of twisted, deranged, drug addled and just plain MEAN people out there who fight like EVERY fight is a fight to the death. They will gouge eyes, kick to knees, choke, stomp your head with their Doc Martens (sp?) ....and you won't know which one you are facing until the encounter starts in earnest, and you find out he is not all that impressed with your devastating technique.

You just have to be meaner than they are in those situations....and it won't be very "martial artsy." This is where mindset comes in. YOU are going home that day, even if it means he isn't. It is not very comfortable to be in that place, regardless of how much the dojo-warriors talk about it and think they "got it."

Kit

[noslolo]

U just Blew my Mind! There are some really sick people in this world, but the writer of that crap is close to the top of that deplorable list.

Scott Lowman

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc


Don't worry, Ted, this simply means you have been awakened.

Several people have been preaching this at CQC for some time. You never know what you can expect. Most streetfights that middle class martial artists will come to get involved in probably will be "brawls with regular guys. " From reading a lot of CQC posts over the past few years it seems a lot of folks without a whole lot of out-of-dojo experience are basing their imagined outcome of such situations on dealing with this type.

But it is not only the raging skinhead that will try tactics like noted above, or have a mindset like this....there are a lot of twisted, deranged, drug addled and just plain MEAN people out there who fight like EVERY fight is a fight to the death. They will gouge eyes, kick to knees, choke, stomp your head with their Doc Martens (sp?) ....and you won't know which one you are facing until the encounter starts in earnest, and you find out he is not all that impressed with your devastating technique.

You just have to be meaner than they are in those situations....and it won't be very "martial artsy." This is where mindset comes in. YOU are going home that day, even if it means he isn't. It is not very comfortable to be in that place, regardless of how much the dojo-warriors talk about it and think they "got it."

Kit

Of course the issue comes home once again to the difference between self defense, defensive tactics, and martial arts. Ellis Amdur defines martial arts as training to fight another professional.

The danger for most civilians and law enforcement personnel is that they normally are not functioning in a combat environment. People like this skin head give you an awful lot of warning about their whole disposition through numerous cues dress, attitude, body decoration etc. You see one or more of these guys you are already shifting your level of readiness and upping the level of force you intend to initiate should things go wrong.

But many predatory types go out of their way not to give away these warning signs. I read about a training camp in which the neo-Nazi, Aryan nations folks practiced techniques for taking out officers pursuing their members after a robbery. They use a backup vehicle, have an ordinary looking man and woman inside. This vehicle follows after the getaway car. If an officer is able to pull over the getaway vehicle with the robbers inside, the backup vehicle pulls up behind the officer and the couple gets out and approaches the officer while making repeated offers to assist him. When they get close enough they take him out.

That is combat pure and simple. These people are at war with the rest of society and have the ability and intention to follow up on their violent philosophy. The problem for other civilians and for law enforcement is that the vast majority of the situations they encounter are not of this nature. If you treat every encounter as a combat encounter (which would definitely optimize the likelihood of you returning home safely every night) you would find yourself in an excessive force lawsuit faster than you could blink.

The way to handle that skinhead from a technique standpoint (this assumes that all of the things you should do to avoid being in a physical confrontation didn't work or weren't appropriate) is to go straight at his center and nail his eyes, continue in with rapid and repeated impact technique until you are at the range to use knees and elbows to render him unconscious. Now imagine that you did that every time some guys decided to throw a punch at you... A civilian or law enforcement officer will be in a lot of legal trouble if that's how they handle things. Yet that is precisely how you would handle things in a combat zone in the military. You see a movement and fire. It turns out to be a peasant. Bad day to be a peasant but you're still alive!

So attitude becomes even more important for the civilian or L.E. officer. Because the only real reason they are in a fight is that they were surprised. And if they were surprised, the other guy got the first blow in, which means that they have to use all of their survival mindset to recover and shift to offense. If the attacker was a real professional like the Aryan nations folks I described, you are probably dead because the first thing that tells you you're in a fight has already killed you.

Law Enforcement folks have the most difficult job I can think of. Unlike the military, a police officer generally can't use a high level of force to head off an anticipated attack. In the military, if I see a potential threat developing I send in the planes to obliterate the threat before it can become a reality. In Defensive Tactics you are required to let the subject determine what level of force you use. You can't shoot a subject just because you know him to be armed and potentially violent. He has to actually attempt to pull the gun before you can shoot him. In most fights an officer is expected to use enough force to end the threat and establish control over the subject. He can not escalate the force beyond what is "reasonable" based on the actions of the subject. When an officer runs into someone with clear intention to use deadly force it is often to late to escalate after the subject initiates as the fight is already over.

People constantly make fun of the martial arts and point out that they won't protect you in a real life and death combat situation. But the likelihood of being in that type of situation for most people, including police officers, is small. The vast majority of the encounters they have do not fit that bill. It is precisely the less deadly, lower level force techniques that are required in most encounters. Even in a typical self defense situation, powerful impact techniques are more appropriate than joint dislocations and attacks to the throat and eyes. For most civilians and officers, any training is better than the none they usually have.
They should be very clear about what it is that they are learning and what they aren't.

[autrelle]

i have encountered skinheads and such types on the "street" and also while doing security work.
for the most part, they bark a lot, but won't bite unless cornered.
they use intimidation as a primary weapon, hoping to engage and defeat victims mentally.
when they do fight, even as a group against a single person, i have found that they don't fight with so much skill that a "reasonably" trained martial artist should have so much trouble with them.
so regarding them as these "malevolent pyschos" (my words) only empowers thems.
the last time i checked, tehse guys have shins, knees, eyes, and throats just like me!
just my lil' whining and moaning for the day

truly

[Rogier]

don't see the words....nuts... used here....

just lift your knee slightly and the effect you wish for happens......


and as said before these guys also have knees, eyes etc. etc. etc.

[Charlie Kondek]

George, thanks for the thoughtful post. Can you expand on "powerful impact techniques"?

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
George, thanks for the thoughtful post. Can you expand on "powerful impact techniques"?

Paul Vunak is one of Dan Inosanto's senior instructors. He has refined his basic applied self defense program down into one essential sequence: flick the eyes. move directly into the straight blast (Wing Chun style punches done in a flurry designed to crush the defenses of the attacker and get him to break posture by ducking away from the onslaught) finishing with close quarters impact techniques like thumbing the eyes, head butts, and knees and elbows until the attacker is knocked out.

It is very effective if done with nothing held back. I teach it to my Defensive Tactics students for when the **** really hits the fan and they feel at risk. If you get good at it nobody but a well trained adversary will stand up to it.

With more training you can get to the point where you use this to lead into takedown and constraint techniques that would allow you to finish with control instead of taking it all the way to knocking the guy out.

He has a two tape set for law enforcement folks that covers the essentials of his system: http://www.pfsvideo.com/paulV.asp

[Kit LeBlanc]

George brings up some good points.

Just some meanderings on that and the follow up posts....

Experience tells me that MOST of these guys (as with most of the wannabe gang bangers, the innumerable felons that "won't be taken alive," etc) probably are all bark, no bite...problem is when you program yourself to think that they are ALL like that it is called complacency.

The whole "they have nuts, they have eyes, they have shins" line of reasoning is to my mind also a mark of complacency. They may, but don't expect that you will be able to get at them, or that attacks there will necessarily have the desired effect.

I say what I have said many times before on these boards, if suspects can take multiple 9mm and even .45 rounds and keep coming (NOT that unusual) don't put too much stock in your martial arts techniques.

Train them by all means, just don't expect them to work with all of the people, all of the time, particularly when, unlike the skinheads, you don't have a lot (any?) experience applying them in extremis, doing real damage to another person in real time.


The vast majority of contacts you will have as an LEO will be with the "no biters." But every so often you may get the ones with teeth, or even worse the guys that George has described with the backup car (BTW, word is Aryan Nations learned that little tactic from LEOs) and who have TRAINED like professionals to take out law enforcement, and even Joe Citizen...these tend to run in certain motorcycle clubs, urban gangs, etc. Many of these guys indeed have military training and bring it back to their compatriots. Others pick it up in prison. Some brought it with them, along with a hearty disdain for government officials, from their homelands overseas

And there's the rub. In some ways LEOs have to wait for such trained people, sworn and motivated enemies of law enforcement/the government, to "make the first move" and then react accordingly. Now I don't have to wait until you are actually attacking or actually an immediate lethal threat, but I had better be able to articulate enough facts so that people on the jury will understand WHY I felt life and limb was in danger, and WHY I reacted the way I did.

When you are at this point, with that cold spike of fear in your gut and your lungs tightening up, it is time to get busy. I would argue that it very much does fit Mr. Amdur's definition of "martial arts" that George mentions. It will not happen very much, if at all, to most officers in the course of their careers, but they had damn well better be prepared for it if it does.

In five years in plainclothes security I got into less than a dozen physical altercations, only two were actually serious enough to call "fights;" one was among the most serious situations I have been in. In almost the same amount of time as an LEO I have been in far more altercations but still not that many, and several of them were at the point of lethal force but did not end that way because they didn't need to (even though it was justified). A few were knock-down drag-outs that could have GONE that way with the simple act of my subject grabbing for my weapon, etc You cannot know how scary it is to be in the midst of a rough and tumble with a gun at your belt in easy reach of someone that wants to hurt you 'til you have been there. I think the reason they DID NOT go that way was due to an escalation of force on my part.

But it is a fine line. You can be overly paranoid and overreact to innocuous things. Or you can become complacent because it has "never happened to me." You have to really be attuned to the situation, the people you are dealing with, and aware of your own tactical advantages and blunders to react appropriately.

And sometimes you get it wrong. Some officers NEVER get the hang of it, even with years of experience, relying instead on backup and a false sense of security with "the gun and the badge." Experience only reveals those that get better and seem to be able to control themselves and others, and those that aren't really cut out for "working the road." Training tends to benefit the former types much more.

I have heard that martial arts (not DT, but actual martial arts...) trained officers tend to get in fewer fights and are more effective when they do. I do not know if this is merely anecdotal, but maybe it is true. It is my belief that all applicants even interested in becoming LEOs should have some level of certification beyond the basic in martial arts. Then, through DT training and field experience they can tweak their particular discipline for the realities of handling everything from the 90 lb. 80-year-old grandma with dementia who is acting out and the ex-Navy SEAL, white supremacist biker with a liking for edged weapons and methamphetamine just itching to kill a cop.

[autrelle]

kit-yes i agree with your statements on complacency. very nice.

george-bil jee followed by a straight blast? i have done that and it does work great! i like to (if distance allows) start with a hard stop hit to the leg, then bil jee, etc...

much respect to both of you!

truly

[sean_stonehart]

I just read through some of the other "suggestive" section (i.e. "bras knuckles", "baseball bats", etc...) & then briefly looked at the main page. This site painted a disturbing picture. :eek:

[Charlie Kondek]

Dan, George, thank you. I really appreciate the thought you put into your posts.

If I may, I'd like to just say a word here reminding folks that not all skinheads are racist @$$holes like our Canadian guy here. In fact, a skinhead is basically just a working class kid from Britain whose lifestyle spread overseas. Braces, short hair, Docs, jeans, music, footie, and beer is really what most skinhead folk are about. The white power jagoffs are a sad minority that corrupts most peoples image of the whole movement; it's sad that skins have to create a movement called SHARPS (Skinheads Against Racial something-something) to distinguish themselves from trash like Toronto Skinhead. One of my best pals, a skin, explained this to me, and I just wanted to pass it along.