Kendo equipment from Korea

[ctan]

Hi! I'm a new member to this forum so I hope this is not an inappropriate question for this particular section. If so, please tell me and I'll post it in the correct section.

I just wanted to know if anyone has had trouble (or heard of people who've had trouble) with bogu sets purchased from Korea? I'm based in the US and I recently visited the website of www.e-kendo.com and the prices for their bogu sets are really good. The quality (at least as evident from the pictures on their site) looks pretty good as well. Could anyone give me some advice on this issue?

Thanks so much!

Best wishes,
ctan

[James Stuart]

I bought a complete bogu, hakema and gi from e-kendo about 14 months ago. Quality of all the equipment is good, bearing in mind the price paid - mine is lasting well. I did have some unexpected delivery delays, as there were difficulties with their production runs, but the company kept me well informed of progress.

I would suggest that you discuss buying armour with your teacher /instructor. They may have contacts with reliable, inexpensive suppliers. Also, It is fairly easy to get measurements wrong, and having someone experinced double check your measurements is a good idea.

Regards
James Stuart

[ctan]

Hi, James,

Thanks for the tip!

Best wishes,
Chih Ming Tan

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

I don't know about e-kendo, but I bought a fairly nice set of bogu through e-bogu.com when they first opened and got a great set with great service.

It was made in Korea, as is a great deal of Kendo bogu, but the quality was outstanding (much cheaper obviously than that made in Japan) and the owner of e-bogu inspects the equipment for measurements and defects before shipping it to you.

Anyway, I don't know about the cheapest sets from Korea, but the medium to high quality stuff appears to be very good by any standard.

Regards,

[Kolschey]

Mr. Scott,

When you mentioned purchasing bogu, I found myself wondering if you ever also practice Kendo, or use the armour as a training tool in any of the other sword arts that you practice. Your profile lists naginata as one of the arts that you are training in. By this, do you mean atarashi naginata?

Many Thanks,

[ctan]

Hi, Nathan,

Thanks for the information. After hearing what you and James have said, I think I'm going to go ahead and purchase the bogu set from e-kendo. Incidentally, in case anyone is interested, those guys are having an opening sale for their 2mm bogu sets; they're priced at US$280 excluding shipping and bogu bag which I figure is an incredibly good deal.

I'll be sure to return to this thread once I receive my bogu set to let everyone know about the quality and customer service performance of this retailer.

Thanks again for all your help!

Best wishes,
Chih Ming Tan

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Mr. Tan,

Just to clarify, I bought my set through e-bogu.com. I don't have any knowledge or experience with e-kendo.com. But it sounds like it may be a suitable importer in any event.

Mr. Mathews,

The naginata I study is primarily Atrashii Naginata, which is why I originally bought the bogu. As mentioned in another thread, Naginata bogu is identical to Kendo bogu, except for a slightly different men (which is an optional variance), kote that have a spit at the first finger, and the inclusion of sune-ate for the shins.

As far as the other sword styles I practice, they do not have bogu formally included in the curriculum.

Don't train in Kendo, though I have dabbled with Kendo-ka and engaged in "friendly" exchanges of naginta vs. kendo.

Regards,

[Kolschey]

Mr. Scott
Thanks for clarifying that. One of the senior students who trained for years at the UW Madison Kendo Club is married to a woman who practiced Atrashii Naginata for many years before she took up Kendo. Once in a while, she would put on the shinpads and spar with some of the senior students. That was always a joy to watch!
You mention that the Kote for Atrashii Naginata have a split finger. May I ask how that assists in one's practice?

[Nathan Scott]

I believe I know who your talking about. Her husband, Richard, and I are friendly.

The split finger aids greatly in manipulating the naginata - most specifically, switching kamae. I started off wearing borrowed kendo kote, and was surprised when I bought naginata kote and found how much easier it was to switch kamae without fumbling. It is hard to feel the naginata properly through the kendo kote mit.
Kendo people are often surprised at the difficulty of defending against a naginata. The biggest problem I'm noticing though is that our training method is the opposite of kendo, in that at least 75 percent of our keiko time is reserved for task-related exercises and kata (oyowaza, actually), whereas kendo seems to practice boguwaza about 90 percent of their practice time.

Therefore, matching naginata against kendo strictly by rank (for shiai, at least) is not entirely fair.

An interesting difference in training focus.

Regards,

[Enfield]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Kendo people are often surprised at the difficulty of defending against a naginata. The biggest problem I'm noticing though is that our training method is the opposite of kendo, in that at least 75 percent of our keiko time is reserved for task-related exercises and kata (oyowaza, actually), whereas kendo seems to practice boguwaza about 90 percent of their practice time.I'm curious what you mean by "task-related exercises." Do you mean what we kendoka would call waza-geiko? Just so non kendo people don't get the wrong idea that we just throw on the bogu and have at it, I'd like to point out that, at least at my dojo, we may spend 80%-90% of our practice time in bogu, but only about 25% of practice is jigeiko, and not all of jigeiko is sparring. The rest of that time is spent doing things like kiri-kaeshi (uchikaeshi for naginata folks), basic strikes, and waza practice.

On the other hand, when I trained in Japan this summer, practice was simply an hour of hard jigeiko. But this was at a private dojo where the "low" ranked people were san and yondan. For me, jigeiko was pretty much uchikomigeiko. Also, this was the morning practice. I don't know how they ran the evening practices.

[B]Therefore, matching naginata against kendo strictly by rank (for shiai, at least) is not entirely fair.[B]And of course extra reach and being used to defending your shins wouldn't have anything to do with that. ;)

[Nathan Scott]

Well, I was writing this detailed response, and was almost finished when netscaped locked up and I lost it.

So here is the quick version:

Yes, "task-related exercises" refers to basic strikes, ashisabaki, uchikaeshi, nidan-sandan uchi, datotsu-bo, shikake-oji (oyowaza) and at more advanced levels, sometimes Zen Nihon Naginata Kata and/or koryu.

I know not all of kendo is jigeiko, and that is why I said "bogu waza". But a big part of becoming proficient in bogu (in the beginning) is wearing it correctly and becoming accustomed to moving in it.

While there are some surface similarities between atarashii naginata and kendo, the emphasis on kata vs. bogu practice is the opposite in each art. The dojo I study at typically fits in between 1 to 2 hours of bogu practice for every 16 hours of training (in a month). This may change for us though, at least for some period of time.

As far as increased range over kendo, the increase is in actuallity not much - especially in koryu naginata. The biggest advantage we have is the ability to perform from either foot forward, and an increased choice of targets. Working against kendo-ka offers a significant amount of problems for us as well.

Regards,

[Enfield]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Well, I was writing this detailed response, and was almost finished when netscaped locked up and I lost it.Darn. I always enjoy your posts on atarashii naginata. It's an art that's on my "wish list," but there isn't a club or instructor within 500 miles. Oh well, kendo and iaido are probably enough to keep my plate full as it is.

Yes, "task-related exercises" refers to basic strikes, ashisabaki, uchikaeshi, nidan-sandan uchi, datotsu-bo, shikake-oji (oyowaza) and at more advanced levels, sometimes Zen Nihon Naginata Kata and/or koryu.Sounds pretty much like a kendo practice, except that we do all that (except kata) in bogu, and don't generally practice a koryu.

I know not all of kendo is jigeiko, and that is why I said "bogu waza".Oh, I know you know. I just wanted to make sure for others who might not.
But a big part of becoming proficient in bogu (in the beginning) is wearing it correctly and becoming accustomed to moving in it.Remembering my own introduction to bogu, and having recently watched a group of beginners don bogu for the first time, I definitely agree.
While there are some surface similarities between atarashii naginata and kendo, the emphasis on kata vs. bogu practice is the opposite in each art. The dojo I study at typically fits in between 1 to 2 hours of bogu practice for every 16 hours of training (in a month).I do wish kendo training was more kata oriented. At the club I study at, kata is only about 1/2 hour of 6 hours a week, whereas jigeiko is probably about 2 1/2. You can easily tell which beginners work hard on their kata and which don't. Those who do tend to maintain good posture, and are just, well, "tighter."
As far as increased range over kendo, the increase is in actuallity not much - especially in koryu naginata.Yeah, but it is there. Doesn't atarashii naginata use shiai naginata that correspond to the size of the wielder? So wouldn't most naginata-ka be used to dealing with slightly longer weapons than their own? All adult kendoka use the same size shinai, so I think this slight changing of maai might have more effect on kendoka than it would on naginataka.
The biggest advantage we have is the ability to perform from either foot forward, and an increased choice of targets.I agree wholeheartedly with this. Most kendoka have no idea how to defend their lower legs. Even those who have a theoretical knowledge never practice it. What I've seen happen in tapes of mixed matches (unfortunately, I've never seen atarashii naginata live), is usually one of two things: the kendoka forgets about his legs and is constantly struck sune, or the kendoka worries about his legs, lowers his kamae and then is constantly struck tsuki or men.
Working against kendo-ka offers a significant amount of problems for us as well.This I'm curious about. What sort of problems do we pose? It's nice to hear from non-kendoka that we may actually do something right. ;)

[Kolschey]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I believe I know who your talking about. Her husband, Richard, and I are friendly.

Hmm. Actually, the fellow that I specifically am thinking of is named Steve. His wife was named Yuko, if I remember correctly. He graduated from the Dept. of Kinestheology about two years ago. He had been the senior teaching assistant for Professor Kiyota. I had been training with the UW Madison Kendo club from about 1997/98 until shortly after he left. Unfortunately, the senior professor on my MFA committee had told me in no uncertain terms that I needed to dedicate more time to my work. :cry: At which point, I dedicated what free time I had to my Aikido practice. On returning to Rhode Island this past year, I have since returned to regular Kendo practice with the RI Shinbukan Dojo.



The split finger aids greatly in manipulating the naginata - most specifically, switching kamae. I started off wearing borrowed kendo kote, and was surprised when I bought naginata kote and found how much easier it was to switch kamae without fumbling. It is hard to feel the naginata properly through the kendo kote mit.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks again!

[ctan]

Hi! This is the follow up I promised. I purchased the BH-200 (2mm set) from www.e-kendo.com at their "cool sale" price on 12/20 and it took them a very reasonable two weeks to get it delivered to my door. The quality of the bogu is simply first rate and the person I was dealing with threw in all sorts of extras and options (notably the 50 piece bamboo do option) at no extra cost. Since this is the first time I had ever bought a bogu set, I made it a point to "pester" the service people a bit with questions and concerns. All my questions were answered in detail, and they took the time to address all my concerns patiently. Overall, I would say that I had a very pleasant experience dealing with this company and I would highly recommend www.e-kendo.com to anyone interested in purchasing an affordable bogu set.

Also, my thanks to all the people on this forum who had taken the time to give me their valuable comments and advice. Thanks!

Best wishes,
Chih Ming Tan

[m a s a m u n e]

Those prices are incredibly cheap...on the keikogi and hakama section, they have something that says "General" and it is priced $25. Anybody know what "General" is? Is it a keikogi and hakama set (I wish), or just one or the other? If it is, do you think that it is worth getting (I have an extremely tight budget, being a job-less 17-year-old attending a Technical College without much time for a job, although I am trying to get one just to pay for my kendo and iaido equipment)

Thanks,

- Alex Guillermo -

[Nathan Scott]

To respond to some points I forgot about from "enfield" (didn't catch your real name):

The naginata also has weight and length restrictions. No matter how tall you might be, you'll be restricted as to the maximum length useable. This length restiction is troublesome for men over 6 feet tall, but that's life I guess (looks funny).

Kendo shinai are also much more rigid, beefier and much wider in diameter. A strong thrust against a charging opponent might cause the opponent to be knocked off their feet when using a kendo shinai. However, a stong thrust with a shiai naginata against a charging kendo-ka will more often that not end up with a broken naginata ha-bu (bamboo blade section). We end up bringing at least one spare naginata each for such events, and extra ha-bu to replace the ones you kendo guys skewer yourselves on! Yuck yuck yuck...

This "charging like a bull" thing is what I was actually referring to in reference to difficulties sparring with kendo-ka, as well as the integrity of the weapons used. I have some ideas for getting around the charging, but I do wish our naginata were a bit wider in diameter all around, heavier, and more substantial for us Westerners.

Also, being a student of sword as well, I'm not used to people being able to whack me head from so far away. The way Kendo tends to use the tobi-komi men has been throwing off my sense of distance and timing developed from years of facing non-kendo kenshi.

Regards,

[Charlie Kondek]

You guys have probably seen the filmed match between a kendoist and a naginataist at www.kendo-world.com? Look under the "Goodies" section, then go to "Video."

[m a s a m u n e]

When they say 2mm for $280, do they mean just the "do" or do they mean the whole bogu set? $280 for 2mm complete bogu?!?! That's crazy! I'll jump at it if that is the case!!

- Alex Guillermo -

[Ian Remi]

Thanks Charlie. I also liked that Kuranari vs Nakano .mov file :)

[ctan]

Hi, Mr Guillermo:

I paid $280 for the whole 2mm bogu set (men, tare, both kotes and do with 50 piece bamboo option). The bogu bag costs $20 extra. This is all excluding shipping costs and potential credit card charges, of course. If you are interested, I highly recommend that you email Mr Son Kwon Sang at bogu@e-kendo.com. He's the guy I dealt with and from my experience, he's a very reasonable and knowledgeable man.

You can probably ask him about the "General" keikogi and hakama as well. From my limited understanding, there are standard quality gradings for kendo hakama and keikogi (#7000, #10000) and "General" probably means that they don't conform to these quality grades; but I could be mistaken.

Best wishes,
Chih Ming Tan