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Mark Brelsford
18th December 2001, 02:19
Hello all,

Here is a question for all, since the sanchin question seems to have reached a peak.

Do today's teachers feel it important to have ties in the orient?

Okinawa in particular due to this forum. What if any ties do folks have? Or do todays teachers feel they have surpassed the Okinawans and no longer need them.

Devils advocate...... Sensei Gushi, from California USA (an Okinawan himself), once told me that someday Okinawans would be coming stateside to learn....

Just a thought, what do you think???

Mark J Brelsford

Daniel Kogan
18th December 2001, 02:47
Although I have very strong ties to my sensei on Okinawa it is about him, not Okinawa. Admittedly he is who he is, by virtue of living on Okinawa, and to learn his Karate to need to understand the man. I lived as an Uchi-deshi on Okinawa not because it was Okinawa but rather because he was willing to accept me and allowed me to live and learn at his dojo.

My sensei visits my dojo on average once a year and I take students to Okinawa once a year so my ties are strong and I think it's added incaluculable element to my Karate and my learning. But I have to admit that I would travel to South Africa or Nepal if sensei was teaching their, and probablu never return to the island if sensei wasn't there.

Let me add a little something to this thread. Is anybody willing to guess who said this:

"At present, there are many people who are very pleased that the Zen Nihon Karate-do Renmei Karate keeps growing and is becoming well disseminated [on Okinawa]. In my opinion this seems a very sad and pitiful situation.

If this continues, the time will come, in in about ten years [written in 1995], when the traditional Okinawa Karate will exist only overseas and will have disappeared from Okinawa."

thanks,

Daniel Kogan
Shinjinbukan

Mark Brelsford
18th December 2001, 02:58
Well Said....

Let me make a point, when I said Okinawa I mean a sensei, group in Okinawa.

I find it difficult for many reason to be affileated with Okinawa at times, I would never though give up my ties with the many folks I have come to know that happen to live there.

Mark J Brelsford

Dale Knepp
18th December 2001, 16:47
Originally posted by Daniel Kogan
Let me add a little something to this thread. Is anybody willing to guess who said this:

"At present, there are many people who are very pleased that the Zen Nihon Karate-do Renmei Karate keeps growing and is becoming well disseminated [on Okinawa]. In my opinion this seems a very sad and pitiful situation.

If this continues, the time will come, in in about ten years [written in 1995], when the traditional Okinawa Karate will exist only overseas and will have disappeared from Okinawa."

Hello Mr. Kogan,

While I'll not venture a quess as to whom you are quoting, I would like to know more about the statement itself.

I was unaware that the Zen Nihon Karate-do Renmei still existed on Okinawa. It is my understanding that an organization by that name essentially ceased to exist with the passing of Kanken Toyama in 1966. Although, a number of his students claim to be carrying on his teachings.

Is there a new organization by that name now?
What is its connection to the old federation, if any?
Who are the chief members of this organization on Okinawa if it is now so popular?

As to whether traditional karate still exists on Okinawa, I would suppose that would depend on what one considers "the traditional Okinawa Karate."

My teacher gives me the impression that he feels that the true art of karate has already been lost on Okinawa and stated that he hoped to bring it back to Okinawa someday.

Best regards,

Daniel Kogan
19th December 2001, 01:59
Well I guess I should explain the quote, which in turn will result in having to reveal the source ;)

This was written by Yagi Dai-sensei (Meibukan Goju-ryu 10th dan) argueably the most senior teacher on the island today. It was printed in an article he wrote for the 50th anniversity of the end of WWII and published by the Zen Okinawa Karate-do Renmei in a booked titled "Ayumi" edited by Onaga sensei and translated by me back in 1995-96.

The "Zen Nippon Karate-do Renmei" does still exist on Okinawa and many of the school and colleges belong to it. Although having spoken to Yagi sensei, my opinion is that he probably didn't mean it quite so literally. For him it was this influence of the Janapese sport ortiented karate, rather than the actually political organization.

It was written in specific reference to the Pre/World tourney of 1995/97.

This was to Yagi sensei a major concern, not only that the Japanese (Zen Nippon...) were pushing sports Karate, but that organizations native to okinawa were now doing their bidding for them, in promoting sports karate over traditional Karate and Ti.

hope this was worth reading :)

Daniel Kogan
Shinjinbukan

Dale Knepp
19th December 2001, 16:06
Mr. Kogan,

Thank you for your explaination but it didn't mention who the leaders of the Zen Nihon Karate-Do Renmei were.

Is this the same organization that was founded by Kanken Toyama? Toyama had ranked Eizo Shimabukuro as a tenth dan in 1960 and established an Okinawan branch of this organization. I have heard the most senior practitioners never acknowledged this rank and formed their own organizations as a result.

Briefly from around 1962 to 1964, Shigeru Nakamura and Zenryo Shimabukuro were members of a Special Branch of the Zen Nihon Karate-Do Renmei. Nakamura was awarded a tenth dan as well as Zenryo Shimabukuro according to some sources.

Nakamura and Zenryo sensei left the Zen Nihon Karate-Do Renmei when the emphasis on sport competition began. Both of these teachers trained their students in bogu kumite and disagreed with the Japanese sport oriented karate that became popular as you have stated.

I thought that Eizo Shimabukuro formed his own organization for his students and that the Zen Nihon Katate-Do Renmei disbanded when Toyama passed away in 1966. Seiko Higa, who also passed away in 1960, was also a member of this organization from the reports that I have found. So, other Goju-ryu practitioners were most likely members as well.

Does this organization still have connections with any mainland Japanese group? Who are the leaders of this group in Japan?

I'm interested in learning more about the continuation of this organization in Okinawa. If you have access to more information in the future, I would greatly appreciate your input.

Best Regards,

Dale Knepp
20th December 2001, 16:03
Robert,

Is this the Federation of All Japan Karate organization (FAJKO) that I have seen mentioned in the media publications?

If it is then that explains the confusion. Just goes to show that it depends on how it's translated into English.

It may be the continuation of Toyama's original group or a reorganization done by the students of the founding members.

Kenwa Mabuni, Gogen Yamaguchi, Gichin Funakoshi were all founding members of the orginal Zen Nihon Karate-Do Renmei.

Regards,

21st December 2001, 07:11
...... Sensei Gushi, from California USA (an Okinawan himself), once told me that someday Okinawans would be coming stateside to learn....

My current sensei, Ron Lindsey, was told by one of his instructor Yuichi Kuda, that exact same thing. I visited Kadena, Okinawa in the late 90's and had a chance to see many ryuha train. Most of what I saw was sparring and tourney oriented.

Bryan Seer

Joseph Svinth
21st December 2001, 10:05
The underlying question is whether US-based karate instructors such as Morio Higaonna, Teruo Chinen, Seiyu Oyata, Tomio Arakawa, etc., are/were competent to transmit their art to American students. If they are presumed to be competent, then trips to Spokane or wherever should satisfy the technical needs of most practitioners just fine.

Meanwhile, I have to ask -- if one is really serious about learning Ryukyuan history and culture, then wouldn't majoring in Ryukyuan studies at the University of Hawaii-Manoa get you there quicker than studying foreign introductions such as Uechi-ryu karate (introduced to Okinawa from Fukien in the early 20th century) or Goju (introduced to Okinawa from Fukien in the late 19th century) or even Shorin-ryu (introduced to Okinawa from Fukien, probably in the 17th century)?

Dale Knepp
21st December 2001, 17:46
Hi Joe,

Unless things have changed quite a bit since 1986, someone can't major in Ryukyuan studies as you suggest. I discussed this possibility with Professor Sakihara at the University of Hawaii around that time. He said that such a program would be to limited in scope and that I would have to consider a broader program such as Asian history or studies. He told me that he would accept me as a graduate student and help me design a course that included Ryukyuan studies if I completed an undergraduate program in Asian studies first.

He allowed me to attend one of his classes on Okinawan history while there and even insisted that we have our picture taken together. Even though, I eventually decided not to pursue a degree in Asian Studies. I consider him as one of the most outstanding gentlemen that have influenced me and only wish that I could have known him better than I did.

I was also invited to several Okinawan dance classes while I was there. The dance instructor was extremely helpful and courteous. She told me that I would have little trouble picking up the basics of Okinawan dance due to my previous karate training.

As to whether or not any of those karate teachers are able to transmit their arts to their students and hence onto future generations that remains to be seen. Certainly, their arts will be preserved in some manner by their students. But as to how and to what extent the true art of Okinawan karate will continue, who can see the future clearly?

Regards,

Joseph Svinth
22nd December 2001, 02:42
Well, one can't major in Kansas history, either: instead one starts in US history and then works one's way toward a history of Kansas cowtowns. And to say one knows something about Okinawa, certainly one should know something about Japan, South China, Indonesian spice trade, European and US coal politics, etc.

Still, one does not need to know the difference between Regency style, English stand-up, and bob'n'weave to be a boxer. One does not even need to speak much English. So perhaps the question is not how close to the Auld Sod do we need to be, but instead whether karate is cultural artifact, combative sport, training in hand-to-hand combat, some combination of the above, or something else altogether. Certainly resolving that issue would help people find their own answers. (FWIW, my guess is that answers will be idiosyncratic rather than universal, and ultimately more akin to faith than reason.)

Dale Knepp
22nd December 2001, 17:16
Joseph Svinth wrote:
And to say one knows something about Okinawa, certainly one should know something about Japan, South China, Indonesian spice trade, European and US coal politics, etc.

Which is the point that Dr. Sakihara was putting across to me years ago. You need to broaden your study if you wish to have a greater understanding of the cultural meaning of Okinawan karate. I said that I decided not to pursue a degree in Asian studies which would have required me to move to where I would be offered a position. The study itself continues to go on.

and:
So perhaps the question is not how close to the Auld Sod do we need to be, but instead whether karate is cultural artifact, combative sport, training in hand-to-hand combat, some combination of the above, or something else altogether. Certainly resolving that issue would help people find their own answers.

This goes back to the point the Taika Oyata makes again and again. Human beings are only born with two arms and legs. What can be done with one's hands and feet is limited to that fact. No one grows wings and flys by themselves.

"Karate," he translates as "the vastness of the hand(s)." So, I think he believes that karate may only be limited by what can be done by human beings. His philosophy includes helping others as well as physical defense as part of life protection skills.

Hank Irwin
5th January 2002, 18:57
KneppSan, I share your thoughts in this. Okinawa is more important than many seam to think. The control sadly is led by the Japanese. I think that is why many Sensei from Uchina have come to the US and other places. That says a lot of how the folks there feel about their own country. Otherwise I think they would stay. But it is like Oyata Sensei say's, we only have so much control. I share the sadness but revell in our fortune having so much talent here. I would love to go to Okinawa one day, romantic notions or not.

John Bowden
5th January 2002, 21:37
I personally think that the roots of a karate system extend just like a family tree back through the teachers rather than the territory in which they live. Where this not the case, would we not need to go back to Fujien province to really get at our roots? Or even somewhere in the Middle East maybe? I am still lucky enough to be able to train under three full generations (two Okinawan) but my my grandchildren will likely train with American born people. There is nothing magic about the Okinawan soil that makes the Karate good. There is good and bad both in Okinawa and America. The real roots are your teachers. I'd rather travel to Tijuana to train with my Sensei than go to Naha city and train with someone else's. (BTW my Sensei doesn't live in Tijuana. :) If your karate has strong roots (teachers) then who cares where it is...hopefully it's close to where you live.

TO be frank, I think that many people leave Okinawa because now, as in all history, the Ryukyus are an area of very limited opportunity. The archipilego has a wonderful history, and the people an esspecially honorable reputation throughout the last milennium. However, there's not alot there besides sunshine and seafood.



I can tell you, there is good Karate here in America. There are great Okinawans here, great Japanese and great Americans too....and probably many other nationalities. Find one of these good teachers and you can count yourself lucky in my book no matter what piece of ground you stand on.


Ossu!
John

11th January 2002, 06:32
Here, here Mr. Bowden! It's not where you'e from it's where you're at!

Bryan Seer

kusanku
12th January 2002, 07:04
Roots-Wrestling, running, weightlifting, jiujitsu, Judo, Combat Aikido, Okinawan Kenpo Karate Do, Matsubayashi and Kobayashi ryu Shorin ryu, and Taijiquan, Chin na, and so forth.

Teachers, many, five really great ones, and they all lived here in the US, though not all came from there.

The rest were from good to really good.

Roots? I learned martial arts in Ohio and Indiana.Been at the Oriental ones since 1964.Seen a lot happen, am amused at historical revisionism about things where I was actually there, but have also bit on stories from the Orient where I was not, mostly my teachers told me as best they knew but some others said whatever they felt like.Later, others have corrected some misimpressions, leaving me however, with the knowledge that there is a body of knowledge from which martial arts can be drawn and even created, and whoever finds that body and learns enough of it well enough can do this.

Is it mythical? No, it exists. Is it mystical? Mostly not.Is it scientific? In an empirical sort of way, at least.Is it available?Yes, if one wades through an ocean of krap to get to the truth.And if one is lucky enough to find at least one really good and knowledgeable teacher.Or at least to find the place that teacher got what they have.

Is it all written down? Not all, but more than before for at least some time, in English.Can everyone be a Master? Heeheeheehaw har! Excuse me.:-)

Do you need to go to Okinawan for it? No. It can be found in Ohio, and in Indiana.Other places too.

Just don't believe everything you read or hear or are shown or told.As important, don't disbelieve everything, either.Use your intelligence guided by your experience, snappy phrase that.:-)

Pavel Dolgachov
12th January 2002, 11:41
I always thinking about tradirions. Few ages ago combat fighting was not only part of culture, but a real need also. I can't say strict about okinawan martial history (I'm trying to research and would be great to find ways to contact okinawan historians!!! Would be it's possible...), but as I understand, okinawan bujuts was very helpful to "police" and military forces.

Times changed... Karate and kobudo have no big need in contemporary society. In Okinawa it's a part of culture. But traditions change too. I don't think that okinawan bujutsu now is as 130 years ago. I think they are very-very different. Even traditional martial artist have different goals than their forerunners.

Is this a idea why to preserve martial arts which are really new enough? I can't say that I have enough information and probably I mistaken.

Can we discuss?:burnup:

Pavel Dolgachov
12th January 2002, 11:47
Originally posted by Dale Knepp
Robert,

Is this the Federation of All Japan Karate organization (FAJKO) that I have seen mentioned in the media publications?

Kenwa Mabuni, Gogen Yamaguchi, Gichin Funakoshi were all founding members of the orginal Zen Nihon Karate-Do Renmei.



FAJKO changed it's name to JKF. I thnk there is a Martial arts encyclopaedia of Corcoran and Farkas and there is some history of different Karate organizations. Very sad, but I never found history and list of all (or almost all) karate federations and associations in Japan and Okinawa.