View Full Version : Shudan no Kamae in Kendo
supernils
18th December 2001, 22:19
We're having a discussion in my club about what Shudan no Kamae should look like. To be more specific, where to hold Kensen.
I think that you should hold it at the height of your opponents throat as in Nihon Kendo Kata. This I have also teached my beginners class.
Other oppinions:
1. Pointing at opponents throats i.e kensen at chest height
2. Pointing between opponents eyes
I am very interrested in different views so please hit me.
I have heard that there should exist a documented Nihon standard Kendo thingy. Has anyone heard of that?
CEB
18th December 2001, 22:36
Originally posted by supernils
We're having a discussion in my club about what Shudan no Kamae should look like. To be more specific, where to hold Kensen.
I think that you should hold it at the height of your opponents throat as in Nihon Kendo Kata.
That is what we are taught. We spend quite of bit of time work one particular exercise where the goal is to keep your kensen aimed at your opponents throat while trying to cause your opponents kensen to not be aimed at your throat. The man with properly aimed kensen produces all the pressure and is almost always the winner. Those aren't Tatsumi Sensei's exact words but I think I'm pretty close.
Ed Boyd
hyaku
18th December 2001, 23:59
Chudan not shudan no Kamae could be described as pointing at the throat. The problem lies in the fact that too many people do just point it!
It's not so much using your chudan as being aware of the other persons chudan. Therefore one must extend ones ki into the kensen. Kensen control is the key. Not where it is pointing
As one advances it is possible to experiment and take the pressure off but still be aware of the other persons kamae to sometime lull them into a sense of false security. Its nice to find people that become too obsessed with the kensen. If your opponents is kensen not where it it should be there is the mistake off looking for it and losing your own kensen control. I should stress though that a nice straight kamae is considered to be honest Kendo
It is the one that has control of the kensen that wins. Someone used to teach me the correct technique is that the kensen stays in chudan up to the very last split second. This means as you start to move in with fumikomi it is still there and must not come off and make the opponent aware of your actions. A tall order considering you must bring the shinai up above the forehead and back down again in such a short space of time and the reason that all this hard work in Kirikaeshi and Kakari Geiko is essential
Towards the eyes would be more towards a Seigan no kamae.
I would have also say that its not so much where the kensen is but where are your hands in relation to this?
My apologies if you have probably heard all this before.
Hyakutake Colin
Ted Bouck
19th December 2001, 03:17
Nils,
I have been taught that Chudan needs to start with the left [lower] hand approx. a palmed over fist away from low hara and the kensen should seek the height in which if I were to continue the line from tsuka to kensen, this line would strike into opponents throat.
This may be what you have already described. I wasn't sure.
Best Regards, Ted
supernils
19th December 2001, 11:28
Just to clear things up about what we're talking about.
http://www.e.kth.se/~e00_nbj/kendo/exercise/images/shudan.gif
A. Kenzen in height of opponents throat
B. aims at opponents eyes
C. aims at opponents throat
Personally I'm for shudan A. This is also what Nihon Kendo Kata says as far as I know.
I use to say that your hands should be in the middle of the full extention in every direction (understand? ;-)). I mean vertically between the lowest point you can hold the shinai in, without changing your grip, and the highest point. Same goes for left and right, back and front. In this way you have axcess to the maximum degrees of freedom.
I also fully agree with hyaku that you should start an attack with your feet, remaining in kamae for as long as possible
Dan Harden
19th December 2001, 13:12
I would agreee with Colin here. If you're only thinking of where to point the Kensen, your missing the point alltogether. If your tip is at his throat and your center is extending out there with your kensen -there will be a relaxed strength in your tip-which, if he tries to move he will feel. Depending upon his ability this may cause him to feel controlled or pressed. And if your "there" and yet not overly commited to being "there," he will feel it increasingly hard to deal with you.
Outside of kendo you have the same situation in classical weapons. The ability to control the others movement and gain a pressing advantage is in inches of the space where you begin.
The same with Chudan to Seigan. There is a world of difference betweeen the two, and the transition can generate power to the kensen. It can either stick to, and push away, his blade or from a 20 deg. off angle to a return to straight it can knock his monouchi off line. The 20 degree off angle to true produces a significantly strong movement in a very small space.
I would add that with a bokuto in place of a shinai, the same movement has another use. A Japanese weapon has a curve for reason. It is a mistake to think it is only for an aid in cutting efficiency. The techniques of various schools have been joined with the weapon for hundreds of years, so that you have a "whole" art.
Blade to man- man to blade. Think of it like weapon ergonomics.
By using the curve in spiraling motion or in just simply turning it in your hands, it causes his weapon to either be displaced, or to cause him respond. Either way, it offers an advantage.
In other words you can thrust a tsuki for example from the same twenty degree off angle, but instead of just dealing with kensen you have (with another very small movement) the curve that will push away or capture (which ever you're going for) by just altering te-no-uchi. I think much can be done with the use of the curve to manipulate and alter an opponents intent. Try playing with it, it is a very interesting study. With a shinai it takes a bigger movement to have the stick do the same thing.
Only one of you will have the best vector. Which one do you want to be.
What was that saying....
The difference between life or death is in the width of the blade or some such thing.
Anyway.... I know of one school that has ways of teaching this very same thing in all manner of situations through a lengthy kata process. You don't even know you're learning it till much later in the process.
Dan
hyaku
19th December 2001, 14:03
Looking at the diagrams there was one thing I didnt mention which Mr Harden touched on about that relaxed but strong feeling.
It can be a preference to let the shinai tip move as one Sensei described to me as a swallows tail movement. The tip or for that matter anything that remains too stationary is too easy to detect. Therefore its essential that there is a slight continuouse movement.
Taking the three diagrams in all the shinai is moving slightly up and down as one attemtps to close the gap and attack.
Likewise too much movement is a no no. I would compare fighting with some of my students like warding off a mosquito that you eventually have to squash.
As the chudan kamae hand position gets stronger it will naturally drop to a lower position well below the hesso. This is natural for men. Ladies kendo is more from the chest.
Hyakutake Colin
CEB
19th December 2001, 14:37
Originally posted by hyaku
My apologies if you have probably heard all this before.
Hyakutake San
Personally, I have had heard much of this before, but nobody says these things quite like you do. I always learn something new or get reminded of something that I have let slip away. Thank you very much for posting in this forum. You must be a great teacher.
Ed Boyd
Charlie Kondek
19th December 2001, 15:33
I haven't thought about it this much, Nils, until you've brought it up and shown those diagrams. Very interesting. And I never thought of a "swallow's tail" movement like Hyakutake-sensei said. I wonder if mine does that at all? Looking at the diagrams, it seems like my own kamae ("right" or "wrong") is very much like C, with an emphasis on pointing kensen towards tsuki. I'll have to think about it more, though, maybe watch how I do jigeiko.
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