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Paul Steadman
19th December 2001, 07:16
Hi All,

What's the difference between chudan no kamae and seigan no kamae in your respective ryu or dojo?

Cheers,

Paul Steadman

carl mcclafferty
19th December 2001, 15:07
Paul

Chudan No Kamae is your Kisaki pointed at the opponent's eye level, Seigan No Kamae is towards your opponents throat level.

Carl McClafferty

fifthchamber
19th December 2001, 16:41
Hello Carl,
I am aware that it is different for each ryu-ha that usesthe Kamae but we are taught the Kamae the 'other' way round..Sei (or Sho) meaning 'correct, right, straight, and Gan meaning 'Eye'..straight at the eyes (?? I dunno..Makes sense..)
Chudan we have as a closer kamae to the body and angled(Kissaki) at the base of the throat.
In Jujutsu we use a similar Kamae..Katate Seigan no Kamae and again the fingers point toward the eyes of the Uke...
That said I would be interested to hear which Kanji are used if the Kamae is not at the eye line...Thanks.
Abayo.

carl mcclafferty
19th December 2001, 18:05
Ben:

Good question on the kanji, don't know. It does reading holding "the blade in front of the eyes". But, just repeating what we do and were told by our Japanese instructors. Seigan toward the throat to hide the length of the blade. It does it very well, might just be an instructor's personal preference. Which is all that really counts. Chudan is middle posture which could be both. Oh well.

Carl McClafferty:smokin:

ghp
20th December 2001, 03:43
Hi guys.


Chudan is middle posture which could be both. Oh well.

Carl practices both Shin-shin Sekiguchi Ryu Battojutsu as well as Nakamura Ryu Battodo, so my comment addresses our common art of Nakamura Ryu . As Carl implies, in our style [Nakamura Ryu] the terms seigan and chudan are interchangeable, meaning the same thing to us.

But, as Ben points out, different styles can have differing interpretations for the two names. And as far as kanji, Ben is also correct in that sei/tadashii means 'true' and gan means "eye."

We have another variation of seigan which Nakamura sensei "borrowed" from Yagyu Ryu and appears in the shitachi's opening kamae in the kumitachi kata, sets four through six. This seigan is called hira-seigan ["flat-seigan"] because the blade is held at an angle, edge canted -- the blade looks to be "flat" or horizontal, at least when compared to the "up-down" orientation of chudan-no-kamae. In fact, the handle and sword are not along the body's center as is the case with chudan-no-kamae; rather, the handle is shifted to the left, aligned with the left hip, while the point still tracks the opponent's eyes. The defensive area becomes an isosolese triangle :
http://www.geom.umn.edu/~wanous/obtuse.GIF
A = right and left hands; B= right shoulder; C= sword tip (directed toward opponent's eyes/face/throat) [and Point A should be closer to Point B]

Hira seigan provides a very good defense over chudan-no-kamae because the blade protects the right hand from a straight attack. People training in kendo will appreciate this defense -- I've used it in kendo to good effect Mind you, I only studied about 14 months {a few years back} and did not "play" with the big boys.

Oh yes ... the standard caveat applies: "Your mileage may vary."

Cheers,
Guy

supernils
20th December 2001, 09:55
Doesn't seigan sound a bit like Shidachi's starting kamae in Nihon Kendo Kata no5?

Paul Steadman
20th December 2001, 14:37
Seasons Greetings,

Yes, yes, it's all falling together now. Thanks all, I was just after some back up arguements for my study. Thanks again.

Ciao,

Paul Steadman

Daigoro
20th December 2001, 14:49
My thoughts on the matter..... :)

Kendo:

Chudan = regular mid level (throat/face)
Seigan = towards the eyes and angled slightly (right). Gohonme is an example of this methinks.

Does anybody else change their chudan depending on using a bokuto or shinai?

Yagyu shinkage-ryu:

Massugu = kind of like kendo chudan, except kissaki *really* pointed at the persons eyes/face.. hands are also well extended out and up from the body (my sensei also said "chudan," but I wasnt sure if that was because I am a kendoka).

The triangluated kamae you are talking about sounds like "Seigan," which I think is a very cool/useful kamae.

(not 100% sure on that one..... cant remember!)

Also, in Shinkage-ryu you say "Kurai" rather than "Kamae."

Anyway, I'm tired,
- George
Edinburgh Kendo Club (Seishinkan), Edinburgh, Scotland
http://www.edinburghkendo.co.uk/

carl mcclafferty
20th December 2001, 17:13
Guy:

Thanks for the save!!

Carl